@ijele,

ijele:

Deity? Human deity? Divine deity? I can't believe the God at a point will restrict himself,even christ parable on his heavenly status, he still mention on a greater force than him, ok when he rose from dead did he still carry human deity? Pls explain this ''at end of time,christ will handover the universe to God and place himself under God'' pls explain this to me like a 6yrs old child.

Deity? Yes. "Human Deity"? I didn't say so. I clearly distinguished between His Deity and His Humanity. Before He became Human, what do you think He was? He was not an angel, because ALL the angels were commanded by God to worship Christ (Heb. 1:4). But When the set time for redemption had come, it is said that The Word became Man (John 1:14 - "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us". Ask yourself: what was He before He became Man?

ijele:

Pls explain this to me like  8yrs old child, Christ  sitting at de right hand of God? Why separating both deity when they are de same,one sittin at hand of the other?, why are you separating both deity without knowing,  sorry de same deity when u pray and u say say through christ our lord, since they are united and become one God,you should simply end your pray without saying through christ our lord,  Pls explain this to me like 8yrs old child. X

Lol, the question of Christ sitting at the "right hand" of God is not to be understood as a physical geographical location. It is like asking another childish question such as "who is sitting at the left hand of God?"

When the Bible uses such expressions, it indicates dignity and exaltation (see Acts 2:33). This is shown, for example in Matt. 26:64 ('Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven') - if that verse was a question of physical geographical point, where then is "power" located . . north, south, east or west?

In Revelation 3:21, instead of "right hand", Christ said plainly that He is set down with the Father IN His throne; and in Rev. 7:17 He is said to be "in the midst of the throne".

When you read of the "right hand of God", please be careful how to draw your distinctions - go through Scripture and see that what you might be taking in literal terms may actually not have been meant to be read that way. Compare Luke 16:23 where it is said that Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham - was that meant to be read literally like Lazarus was inside the paps of the patriarch?

toba:

Guy it will clear no doubt cause theres none.Paul in all his writings about christ,affirms his Godship.U re refering to 1corin15:23-. Here Paul is telling us dat whatever power God has,all have been giving to christ to be d ruler(God) of Heaven&Earth.When christ will handover then God will become all in all.i.e now Trinity is at work division of Labour is being practised.God d creator of Heaven&earth,has made jesus to be God over evrythng God created,whilst d holy spirit is a messenger(comforter). Christ is incharge of this dispensation,while God is an observer.

                         OMG,  gosh am cracking in here, can u  hear your self? Well that's ok from your reasoning, so from what  u re saying, God(s) is/are not trinity till de end of time? Ok, then your God will be an observer, lol, oh the work is too much, so there's to be divison of labour, wow, beside the real quote is 1 cor 15 vs 28,  (And when all things shall be subdued unto him ,then the Son ALSO himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God MAY be all in all), that God may be all in all,  'May' is a probability. Think carefully it doesn't signify being trinity or are u say they probably will be trinity? Still explain this to me like a 6yrs old child.                                           EXAMINE THIS:              john 17:3- God is the only true God and jesus whom you sent.   REV.21:16- GOD is the alpha and Omega' I shall be his God and he shall be my son. (both deities).               2cor 4:4 Christ is the image of God. Recall likewise Man is the image of God                 2COR 11:13- the head of christ is God, remember the head of woman is man- man is greater than woman.       I TIM 2:5- For there is  One GOD and one MEDIATOR between GOD and Man- the man Christ Jesus.(Here God is clearly distinguished from christ),                          Col 3:1-CHRIST sit on the right hand of God.  Act17:21- God will judge this world   Paul recognized only ONE God seprately and ONE LORD    (1COR 8 : 4- 6)   "WE KNOW THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD. EVEN IF THERE IS SO CALLED gods,  Yet there is one GOD, THE FATHER,WHO IS THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS AND FOR WHOM WE LIVE: ,  And There is ONE LORD JESUS THROUGH WHICH ALL THINGS WERE CREATED AND THROUGH WHOM WE LIVE, (clearly stated no Trinity) compare again with Eph 4:4-6.    Ok read this 2 corin 3 vs 23,  Paul said that just as u belong to christ, 'Christ belong to God', ( explain this to me like a 6yrs old child)                       john 14:28 - my father (GOD) is Greater than I( jesus christ)      John 8:40; but now we seek to kill me,a man that hath told you the truth which i have heard of God.        Pls understand that when christ was on earth he understand his nature yes he is divine but he is not God. He is part of God- yes acceptable, but being part of God does not make him God. We human is likewise part of God(created of his image and likeness).are we God? This may be mystery.  The word 'TRINITY' or trying to prove TRINITY is not Biblical, SIT BACK AND REFLECT MORE ON THIS. It is Purely on ASSUMPTION by early catholics in 400ad. Just like catholics Assumed that Mary is lifted to heaven in her earthly body and Assumption of ' purgatory' Why is it only some sects in christianity believed that, yet it is generating controversy among we christians. Some believed because it'll be against their doctrine to speak against Trinity. Don't be among the foolish majority. Remember that MANY are called but  FEW are CHOSEN. GENERAL belief is not a true test of TRUTH! MY GOD is not a God of confusion. * For those saying there is trinity, You are yet to give a clear quote without any ambiguity. WHY IS IT THAT MY CLEAR REASONS WILL COUNTERED BY SAYING" Don't understand de bible literally but if an injuction from same bible quotes your argument, it  should be literal? I can't understand that at a point God ceased to be God and became man wit limited knowledge. Then later went back to take his status. 'Why will jesus said that his father is greater him, and Men (some so- called Christian) said 'HELL NO, you and father are equal'! Am not a Jehova witness,  Am a christian,   Once a catholic, Re-Baptized and worshipping in Living Faith Church(winners) but i am a Free thinker, MAY de grace of our lord Jesus be with you all and continue to dwell in God infinte mercy. See you in the next Thread. Thanks x x

This thread is bound to end up like the previous threads of its kind so i intervene by quoting
Using Rev 5:7
The lamb [Jesus] went and took the scroll from the one who sits on the throne [God].
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would he take the scroll from himself?Huh I cant take a scroll from myself

Lets all answer this post rationally;what do u think is happening here.

We are going to get this all mixed up so i think we should all air our opinions on who Christ is from time immemorial till date.i'll go first
Jesus Christ is the son of God and was begotten before the world was made and he lived in glory with his father and according to phil 2.6 he did not even TRY to become equal with God talk less of being equal with him and more less of being God.

that is all i say for now.I'll increase my points only if need be.

@viaro and all others for Jesus is God
Using Rev 5:7
The lamb [Jesus] went and took the scroll from the one who sits on the throne [God].
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would he take the scroll from himself?Huh I cant take a scroll from myself

Lets all answer this post rationally;what do u think is happening here.

The bible is full of many other points showing that jesus is not God but if you can explain this away i will think deeply about whatever answer you give before considering accepting that jesus is God or continuing the argument.

^What does it mean to be among the 'foolish majority'? What/who qualifies the doctrine of the trinity as foolish? And what exactly concerns an 8yr old with the 'mystery of godliness'?
It's sorry I can't find the desire to engage you. I'm yet to see the profit. Anyways, still hoping sha

karo93:

@viaro and all others for Jesus is God
Using Rev 5:7
The lamb [Jesus] went and took the scroll from the one who sits on the throne [God].
If Jesus is OF ONE BEING WITH GOD why would he take the scroll from himself?Huh I cant take a scroll from myself

This certainly is of a deeper level than you can handle, that is one reason why I feel that my superiors have not bothered to engage you. But let me help.

The book of Revelation itself is not meant to be read in a literal manner through-and-through. In chapter 5, for example, the Lamb is said to be found "in the midst of the throne" (verse 6) and consequently came and took the scroll. It is not a question of how many 'Beings' but rather one of essence - that God is not limited to a location but is rather ubiquitous. The same is indicated in John 1:1 - The Word was with God and the Word was God.

Let me give you another example of such a construct that demonstrates that the Messiah Himself is God. Turn to Zechariah 12:10 - "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

We notice a few things above -

~ the One who speaks there is God ("I will"

~ the same One who speaks would be pierced:
(they shall look upon me whom they have pierced)

~ the language changes from first person to second person construct:
(they shall look upon me . . . they shall mourn for him)

Could you delineate between "upon me" and "for him" as two different people or the very same One who speaks in that verse? The pronouns "I" and "me" and "him" all point to the same speaker in that verse - God.

There is a plethora of verses in the Bible showing that Jesus is God. Some of us have given a few; but I notice that you have not treated any of those verses showing the fact of the Deity of Jesus, but each time just returning again and again to argue issues away from what have been shown. Are you being fair to yourself?

Lets all answer this post rationally;what do u think is happening here.

I think you're neither being rational nor interested in discussing fairly.

The bible is full of many other points showing that Jesus is not God but if you can explain this away i will think deeply about whatever answer you give before considering accepting that jesus is God or continuing the argument.

It seems you would rather like to continue your own argument rather than consider what others have said. Good luck.

Well this answers it all you are not ready to answer the unanswerable so we should move on but first things first i have no desire to drag this argument into a stale mate so i think we should narrow our points.

We cannot fully trust the words of men[pls argue this on a new thread]because there could be errors in what they understood or believed so lets narrow our quotes down to those said by God,Jesus or any other heavenly being or those in which the author agrees that the words came from them.

give your points and i will answer[if they r in the format] for i have already given mine by using rev.5.7

Viaro
Na wa o! Abeg, I'm just a little boy/baby/child of God e. Not ya superior. No put banana peel for my domot. lol

Well this answers it all you are not ready to answer the unanswerable so we should move on but first things first i have no desire to drag this argument into a stale mate so i think we should narrow our points.

We cannot fully trust the words of men[pls argue this on a new thread]because there could be errors in what they understood or believed so lets narrow our quotes down to those said by God,Jesus or any other heavenly being or those in which the author agrees that the words came from them.

give your points and i will answer[if they r in the format] for i have already given mine by using rev.5.7

in this way we could drop all directions of argument and show ourselves the truth.i sign up on this

karo93:

give your points and i will answer[if they r in the format] for i have already given mine by using rev.5.7

The points you seek have been given, and repeating yourself without dealing with them does not indicate you're ready to discuss. If you've made up your mind already about whatever you want to believe, good luck. Whatever you argue does not change anything on what have been presented already and which you never once attempted to discuss.

Image123:

Viaro
Na wa o! Abeg, I'm just a little boy/baby/child of God e. Not ya superior. No put banana peel for my domot. lol

Hahaha. . . no, you're one of my superiors, so trying to play shy is not going to help. I have been looking at your thread - quite a lot to enjoy there.

The bulkiness and disarray of post make it difficult  and uninteresting to reply[i answered lady's cos though bulky,were in order] cos wen they are too many in one,answering them will not really make much impact which is why i make my questions and post as short and straight to the point as possible and although they are still unreplied, i have answered every straight to the point question and post.

If you make your post as such in the format i just asked for then you ll get answers and we put a full stop to this thread.

i go again on rev.5.7.lay down yours,

Karo fine u started d thread but u dnt want to share others ideas

toba:

Karo fine u started d thread but u dnt want to share others ideas

explain yourself pls. i dont get you!

@viaro

More accurate translation of Zechariah 12: 10 read like this: “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son]"

You can compare it with John 19:37 to attest to it accurateness, where John was quoting from the Zechariah: "And, again, a different scripture says: “They will look to the One whom they pierced"

@to all
Does belief in trinity necessary for human salvation?

I will sum up everything just like apostle John when he wrote: "But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name" - John 20:31

We need to believe Jesus is the Christ Son of God to get life not belief in trinity.

viaro
Take time o! you opened my teeth, don't open it again.

karo93
At least for the benefit of others and perhaps you, let's share lidu. Actually, I don't 'argue' doctrine cos though important, it's not pivot to salvation. Like for instance, one doesn't on compulsion need to grasp the virgin birth or even the rapture to be saved. Also, one may be 'aware' on issues like lord's supper, trinity, heaven and hell and still not possess eternal life.
So I want it clear that agreeing with Bible doctrine is not what saves us or condemns us. But it's good we grow in God.
Colossians 1v10
'being fruitful in every good work, and INCREASING in the knowledge of God'.

Nonetheless, those who do not agree with Bible doctrines need to be the more careful as whatsoever is not of faith is sin. They're not to create unneeded strife or cause others faith to wane.
I do not know God fully, and I don't know of any human who can show you God. It is the Spirit of Christ that can show Him. I'll like to say that the trinity is God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. Each one of them is God in a way no other is. Yet they're seperate recogniseable personalities united in One. It's a mystery referred to as 'great'. It is above our day to day logic. Even our human body is above day to day logic. But one thing you must not fail to notice all through scriptures is the seamless interchange of roles, power, attributes and co accorded to the trinity.
Now, let me add that God operates in hierarchy. All fingers are not equal before His administration. You'll see that in His dealings with man (family/husband and wife, and society/setting authority). In Heaven, the angels are in hierarchy. God's hierarchy still oozes oneness. Two are now one flesh. And its the same with the Godhead. It is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

The Trinity is one to us. We've got little or no business with their hierarchy, like you don't reduce respect for your father simply because he's not the oldest man in the local government. It's not your business. He's your father.
The Bible says we're created in God's image. We're yet to fully understand the human body, how much more the Godhead/God. Karo93, you'll agree that one human has a spirit, a soul and a body. Well that's what the Bible says. And the body can depend on the will power of the soul i.e it can collect something from another. And the soul/mind can attimes barely function without the cooperation of the body. (You don't want to be writing an exam on an empty stomach). Yet they're one person. You've been perplexed about how the Lamb could collect from the Father, or ask/speak to the Father if they were one. Have you not read that the Spirit can be willing and the Body weak? The Body can make a demand on the Spirit and vice versa.
Do you know there's an expected hierarchy for the human being? It is spirit, soul and body. The Spirit is expected to lead, not the Body yet they are one person.
Well then, let's go back to basics. So much for the human body already. To avoid the confusion that many who do not accept the Trinity face, there's something important you need to know about the Son. It is the role.
1Timothy 2v5 For there is one God, and one MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus is mediator, middle man as a role, to reconcile us to God/himself as some portion puts it. A good mediator is not one-sided, there be no real peace that way. He takes from the two sides and reconciles them. That is Jesus. You need to recognise His dual roles as Son of God and as Son of man, and then rightly divide the Word of truth. You should learn to discern when He's speaking on God's side and on man's side.
It's funny to say Jesus is son of God, therefore He is inferior. Such logic is helpless when you recall that this same Jesus is Son of David, Son of Abraham, and son of man. For Christ's sake, He created man! (no pun intended). The jews knew the implication of Jesus being the Son of God. Their spiritual math was right, it is = God. John 10v32,33 or better still John 5v18 which said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Jesus never denied this.
Permit me to stop hia 4now. I want to sleep. Hope to find time during the day, but ponder on the aboveS.

@Image123
I believe in God the father,Jesus the son,and the holy spirit[rev.4.5 and 5.6 they are 7 spirits of God].
they are three different persons 2 of whom were created by God.

The holy spirit is the active force of God or the direct messenger executing every project for him[mt 1:20 and mt 4; 1]The holy spirit is the name given to any of the 7 spirits of God.
Jesus is the son and on earth he had no power of his own in matt12.28. and was thus filled by the holy spirit through which he PERFORMED miracles

By the book of revelation we know that the holy spirit is neither worshiped nor enthroned but the father and son are worshiped and enthroned SEPARATELY.[see earlier post for bib backup]

It is also clear that the holy spirit neither spoke on his authority nor on what HE KNEW.he spoke on what he HAD HEARD from God-if he was God then who did he hear from?
neither did Jesus who did not come on his own authority

If we want to reach a finale point then we should follow this format.
1.We cannot fully trust the words of men[pls argue this on a new thread]because there could be errors in what they understood or believed so lets narrow our quotes down to those said by God,Jesus or any other heavenly being or those in which the author agrees that the words came from them.
2.The bulkiness and disarray of post make it difficult and uninteresting to reply so make your posts as short and straight to the point as possible.

Let the point listing begin,

TrueSeeker:

@viaro

More accurate translation of Zechariah 12: 10 read like this: “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son]; and there will be a bitter lamentation over him as when there is bitter lamentation over the firstborn [son]"

You can compare it with John 19:37 to attest to it accurateness, where John was quoting from the Zechariah: "And, again, a different scripture says: “They will look to the One whom they pierced"

Thanks for that note. Although John 19:37 is a reference to Zech. 12:10, it does not mean that John was quoting that verse verbatim as it appears in the OT Hebrew. Most often, when the apostles cited OT verses in the NT, they give a general reading rather than an exact 'word-for-word' quotation. An example is Rom. 2:24 and Ezek. 36:22.

However, if we consult Zech. 12:10 in some of the other translations based on more precise rendering, we find that God was speaking of Himself in that verse. If you have a copy of NET Bible, you may find a footnote where the difficulty is explained:

[list]Because of the difficulty of the concept of the mortal piercing of God, the subject of this clause, and the shift of pronoun from “me” to “him” in the next, many mss read אַלֵי אֵת אֲשֶׁר (’ale ’et ’asher, “to the one whom,” a reading followed by NAB, NRSV) rather than the MT’s אֵלַי אֵת אֲשֶׁר (’ela ’et ’asher, “to me whom”). The reasons for such alternatives, however, are clear – they are motivated by scribes who found such statements theologically objectionable – and they should be rejected in favor of the more difficult reading (lectio difficilior) of the MT.[/list]

To assure you, Jesus made statements in the NT that indicate that He was the God that Israel was called to follow, serve and worship. An example ~

[list]Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![/list]

Compare that with ~

[list]Deut. 32:11-12
As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.[/list]

Quite often, many people forget verses like this when they argue only for the Humanity of the Son of God. The Humanity does not negate His Deity - rather, both His Humanity and His Deity are united in Him. Hence, this is difficult for some translators (like the NAB and NRSV) to see that Zech. 12:10 is the LORD GOD speaking of Himself and His marvellous work of Redemption on the Cross. But other translators have no problem letting God speak for Himself - you will find that He actually has spoken in many translations (such as the YLT [Young's Literal Trans.] and the JPS [Jewish Publication Society]) that render that verse in its precise statement, such that God is saying that they shall "look unto Me".

karo93:

By the book of revelation we know that the holy spirit is neither worshiped nor enthroned but the father and son are worshiped and enthroned SEPARATELY.[see earlier post for bib backup]

If Jesus was a mere Man or a created Being, why do you want to worship Him? Why not just worship the Father alone?

You have a serious problem here. Created Beings such as angels do not receive worship from any man. Any angel who seeks worship from man does not stand as a servant of God. Rather, we read that ALL the angels worship Christ the Son of God (Heb. 1:4) - because He also is their Creator (John 1:3).

The only reason that you would acknowledge worshipping the Son of God is because He is your Creator and God - otherwise your own argument that "the Father and the Son are worshipped" is completely useless! We are called to worship the Son even as we render divine honour to the Father, for that is what Jesus Christ Himself stated in John 5:23.

Please sort yourself out of your own conundrum. If Jesus Christ is not Deity Himself as stated in John 1:1, then you have no business acknowledging that He is also worshipped as the Father is worshipped. If you actually acknowledge that Jesus Christ is worshipped, what is your argument then?

Image123:

viaro
Take time o! you opened my teeth, don't open it again.

Hahaha! I apologise, my superior. I only learn under the grace of humble spirits like you, and that is the truth. Afterall, "what you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth" (Jewish proverb) - and I have seen your good works.

viaro
Thanks for the complements.

@karo93
What exactly is the cause of your laziness. Get serious. You 'want to talk' about a great mystery and you're moaning about thin lines and thick continuous wavy lines. May God help you. Now where do you stand on the Holy Spirit? You said Jesus and the Spirit are two created by God. The next thing you're talking about 7spirits. Are you on to a sevenity here?

Good day viaro -

Your arguments on this thread do not add up. I will highlight just two.

viaro:
Those are passages that do not affect the Deity of Christ one bit. I have tried to point out that there are two things that Scripture often presents to us about Christ: (a) His Deity; and (b) His Humanity.

We both know 1 Corinthians 15:28 does not present Christ's Humanity so you have not addressed karo93's point. Thanks.

viaro:

If Jesus was a mere Man or a created Being, why do you want to worship Him? Why not just worship the Father alone?

You have a serious problem here. Created Beings such as angels do not receive worship from any man. Any angel who seeks worship from man does not stand as a servant of God. Rather, we read that ALL the angels worship Christ the Son of God (Heb. 1:4) - because He also is their Creator (John 1:3).

The only reason that you would acknowledge worshipping the Son of God is because He is your Creator and God - otherwise your own argument that "the Father and the Son are worshipped" is completely useless! We are called to worship the Son even as we render divine honour to the Father, for that is what Jesus Christ Himself stated in John 5:23.

Please sort yourself out of your own conundrum. If Jesus Christ is not Deity Himself as stated in John 1:1, then you have no business acknowledging that He is also worshipped as the Father is worshipped. If you actually acknowledge that Jesus Christ is worshipped, what is your argument then?

You appear to be proceeding on the basis that one either accepts Jesus as Almighty God Yahweh or as a mere man. What I think your opponents are saying, which I believe is supported by the Bible, is that Christ's position is a unique one. He is in the image of God, the nearest to God, the first being created by God who then created everything else that exists. He is thus a divine being. This cannot be compared with prophets and doing so is either misguided or disingenuous. From this biblical position, he is thus eminently qualified to be worshiped. From that point also, I think your "Deity of Christ" can be said to be scriptural since you can hardly get more deity than this. The problem with the "Deity of Christ", though, is that its Trinitarian proponents take it to mean that Christ is the supreme Deity, the Almighty Yahweh himself, which is not scriptural.

Karo, come back here and speak for yourself. Stop calling your elders to further blind you. Open up in sincerity and grow in Christ.

^^^  Yeah. God sent himself to die for men. Anyone who can't see this Great Truth has to be blind!

@ All,

If truly Jesus is God as claimed by xtians why is it that Jesus said no 1 knows the hour and day except Almigthy God alone?

alimat 2:

@ All,

If truly Jesus is God as claimed by xtians why is it that Jesus said no 1 knows the hour and day except Almigthy God alone?

Did the Allah of Islam tell you anything about "the hour"?

MyJoe:

Good day viaro -

Your arguments on this thread do not add up. I will highlight just two.We both know 1 Corinthians 15:28 does not present Christ's Humanity so you have not addressed karo93's point. Thanks.

Hello MyJoe,

I did not have the desire to go into detail on 1 Corinthians 15:28 and that was why I summarised all that could be said by noting two things: (1) that Scripture does not confuse between the Deity and Humanity of Christ; and (b) that both His Humanity and Deity are united in Him.

It is in that summary that I suppose all other arguments stand to either make sense or else not at all. Christ's subjection to the Father does not take anything away from His Deity. Even the Father refers to the Son as "God" as cited in Heb. 1:8 - "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom".  It is in the essential nature of the Son that He is confessed as "God". Yet, His submission to the Father is not a matter of only the future - for He has shown that same submission to the Father in His vicarious work on the Cross, whereby He is called "Lord" (Phil. 2:8-11). Even at that, the Son is not said to lose His essential nature of Being in 1 Cor. 15:28, for that verse does not negate the fact that even in the future, He is still worshipped.

Further, it is clear that 1 Cor. 15:28 is not the first or only time that the Son is seen in such relationship to the Father or God. Both before His Incarnation and after His Resurrection and glorification, the Son is seen as the One through whom creation has to do with God. Not only that all things are reconciled to God in Him (Col. 1:20), but also: "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" (Eph. 1:10). When this happens, shall the Son cease being worshipped? No, for even those who argue against His Deity (like karo93) still acknowledge that the Father and the Son are worshipped. Do you care to ask karo93 why he acknoweldges that fact?

This gathering all things together in Christ is what 1 Cor. 15:28 also points to - it is in Christ that the full expression of Godhood (Deity/Divinity)  will be expressed - that is also the essential message you find in Col. 1:19 - "For it pleased the Father that in Him (Christ) should all fulness dwell". That "all fulness" are found in the Son still expresses the fact that God is "all in all". The verse in 1 Cor. 15 does not mean that the fullness would no longer be expressed in Christ at that time; rather, it affirms that all existence will find that thing fully expressed in the Son.

You appear to be proceeding on the basis that one either accepts Jesus as Almighty God Yahweh or as a mere man. What I think your opponents are saying, which I believe is supported by the Bible, is that Christ's position is a unique one. He is in the image of God, the nearest to God, the first being created by God who then created everything else that exists. He is thus a divine being. This cannot be compared with prophets and doing so is either misguided or disingenuous. From this biblical position, he is thus eminently qualified to be worshiped. From that point also, I think your "Deity of Christ" can be said to be scriptural since you can hardly get more deity than this. The problem with the "Deity of Christ", though, is that its Trinitarian proponents take it to mean that Christ is the supreme Deity, the Almighty Yahweh himself, which is not scriptural.

I think you're mixing up issues here. Although you attempted to reconcile both diametric views, it still does not help to assume, that - (a) Christ was created by God at anytime; or that (b) worship could be rendered to a created being in the same way as the Father [John 5:23]. I still ask: why do those who argue against the Deity of Christ also acknowledge that He is to be worshipped? Does that even make sense to them in the body of all their arguments? If Christ is Deity and indeed to be worshipped, WHAT essentially has been their problem in yet arguing against that same thing?

The OP has not shown a good grasp of his own arguments - he continues to evade simple issues that have been pointed out to him and only interested in feeding his own confused arguments. On that note, like I have said, I wish him good luck to keep pursuing whatever he already has made up his mind to believe. But he should ask himself why he still acknowledges that Christ is to be worshipped if He is not Deity?

Jesus is to be worshipped because according to john.3.35 the father loves the son and puts everything in his power.
God is to be worshipped because everything in under his power so all those under him must worship him but seeing that the father has given Jesus equal rights then all must worship him too for all are under him too.

@viaro
What's your complaint? you keep complaining that i have not addressed points and yet you have not addressed mine[and u just swept alimat's about the hour under the carpet]we wont get anywhere like this i have told you to lay your points as simply as possible and i will answer you[as i just did above] i also gave you a format to narrow our points so we get somewhere but it seems like you are just interested in going round in circles. i dont swing that way

My point remains in revelation;address it and lets move on or drop yours for me to answer.We should be able to reach a verdict together[everyone who posts on this thread]

@image123 about my seven spirits of God[holy spirit], i ll only roll that in if need be. i accept my error in calling jesus and the holy spirit 2 persons.

viaro:


To assure you, Jesus made statements in the NT that indicate that He was the God that Israel was called to follow, serve and worship. An example ~

[list]Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![/list]

Compare that with ~

[list]Deut. 32:11-12
As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.[/list]

In your bid to create a point from thin air you just tried mixing water and oil as one liquid.
Here Jesus TRIED BUT WAS NOT ALLOWED but God did gather and protect them.
now you have a point against yourself!