what's your opinion about the principle of ten percent must preachers are speaker always lay emphasis on ten percent as one of the criteria for success what do you think?

give 10% or 20% if you have it and give your widows mite if that's all you have.
A Christian is not bound by law.

Giving ten percent of what you earn/have is not something you should do because its a principle, its not like if you don't hell will let loose but its something you should do because you feel like, as in you love helping others and the church.

Just like you don't steal, not because its a sin but because you know its not right

The principle of 10% is clearly God ordained. In as much as a believer is not bound by the curse of the law. The law also has its blessings.
It is then up to you if you wish to avail yourself of the blessings of this particular law.

Therefore, I am saying clearly that you do need to pay 10% of your increase towards the work of God, if you want the blessings that accrue to that principle.

YOUR MONEY PERISH WITH YOU. YOU SEEK TO BUY THE POWER OF SALVATION WITH MONEY.

FLEE SIN AND THEN SHALL YOUR OFFERING BE ACCEPTED ONTO GOD

Acts 8 Verse

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.


THE PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH DONT SAY IT DIRECTLY THEY SAY PAY YOUR OFFERING AND GET PROTECTION. THE GRACE OF GOD IS FOR SALE. THEY SHALL DIE SUDDENLY AND THEIR HEARTS WILL FAIL THEM .


HE WILL TAKE AN OFFERING OF OBEDIENCE AND A SACRIFICE OF HOLINESS

Grouppoint:

The principle of 10% is clearly God ordained. In

Actually it was extant in civilisation pre-Israel. If by God you mean the God of the Bible, then in a sense yes. It was ordained for the Israelite nation as part of the law.

Grouppoint:

In as much as a believer is not bound by the curse of the law.

Not unless you voluntarily put yourself back under it! Please don't buy into the subtle selling of a works based salvation and income stream blessings.

Grouppoint:

The law also has its blessings.

Really? What would they be? Please expound on this. The law is bondage and for the flesh. It's for the ungodly. Whilst the law is good and holy and just, Christians don't attain to righteousness or blessings through keeping it or being bound by it in part or in whole.

Grouppoint:

It is then up to you if you wish to avail yourself of the blessings of this particular law.

One cannot be selective about the law. To ascribe to any part of it is to be bound by the whole of it. Being law bound means you fall from grace, profit not from the Lords sacrifice and cannot be justified in the sight of God.

Grouppoint:

Therefore, I am saying clearly that you do need to pay 10% of your increase towards the work of God, if you want the blessings that accrue to that principle.

There is no notion of a mandatory tithe in NT Christianity. Giving is the way. Give little, give much, give judiciously or sacrificially, as long as it's cheerfully, whole-heartedly, God is pleased.

Feel free to call your giving of any amount "tithe" if you will. But do not tie it to law keeping or ascribe any spiritual accroutements to it.

Let me take a wild guess RCCG or some other Pentacostal outfit?

God bless

TV01:

Feel free to call your giviong of any amount "tithe" if you will. But do not tie it to law keeping or ascribe any spiritual accroutements to it.

Let me take a wild guess RCCG or some other Pentacostal outfit?

God bless

TV01,most Churches preach the 10% rule not just the 2 you mentioned.I was brought up protestant and I remember the little yellow"tithe cards" that the moms and dads had.
I read some where that this doctrine only came back into Christiandom in the last 4 centuries or so,early Christians paid no tithes and asked for none including Paul.
I am interdenominational by heart although I'm a member of a Pentecostal Church now and I am convinced that God does not require 10% of my salary to bless me.

I am married to a wonderful man who pays tithes and gives offering and I give freewill offerings as the Lord blesses me and my heart does not condemn me.
We cannot buy God or his blessings by any amount.

babyosisi:

TV01,most Churches preach the 10% rule not just the 2 you mentioned.

I was hoping our original "tithe" thread would touch on money as a whole in the church. Both in antiquity, and in contemporary times, especially the practical outworking. As ever gainsayers conspired to scupper it before we expounded in full, robbing many of edification.

I don't believe "most churches" do preach tithe, unless you are specifically refering to the Nigerian context. Looking at it denominationally, most of the older churches have their historical equivalents (indulgences etc).

Also pertinent to note is the fact that through land & property acquisitions, shrewd business dealing and political manouvering many older denominations have considerable financial resources at their disposal. So the Anglican church for example has no need of a mandatory tithe, as they are well funded already. The Catholic Church is one of the worlds richest organisations.

The newer churches have yet to establish themselves in the same way and are still jockeying for financial ballast, political clout and full social relevance/acceptance. Hence the mandatory tithe and the associated "blessing/curse" to further one aspect of that.

babyosisi:

I read some where that this doctrine only came back into Christiandom in the last 4 centuries or so,early Christians paid no tithes and asked for none including Paul.

It was never a Christian notion. Some have taken advantage of the fact that it is contained in scrupture to claim it is/was. It was a Jewish (although God ordained) practise. It was used historically by some of the high churches to achieve the positions of political leverage and financial resourcing I outlined earlier. In fact I understand that as late as the 20th century it was enshrined in law in some Europrean countries.

babyosisi:

I am interdenominational by heart although I'm a member of a Pentecostal Church now and I am convinced that God does not require 10% of my salary to bless me.

I have totally discared all such labels. I am content to be a Christian (which leaves me receptive to all and does not engender exclusivism). I also eschew membership. The book of life is the pre-requisite roll to belong to. Once a believer you are a member/part of the body of Christ. I hesitate to go further, but I see real spiritual consequences of joining oneseff to things that may not in truth represent Christ.

babyosisi:

I am convinced that God does not require 10% of my salary to bless me.

A simple truth that many would twist for pecuniary gain.

babyosisi:

We cannot buy God or his blessings by any amount.

Ditto.

So Grouppoint, 'fess up, what denomination/church do you belong to?

God bless

TV01 just curious,what church do you attend?

babyosisi:

TV01 just curious,what church do you attend?

I don't articulate "church" as something I attend. I see it as something I am a part of. Something I belong too.

More practically, I fellowship in a house church local to me.

What about you?

God bles

why are you always so dogmatic?
attend,belong,member,what is the difference?
Do any of these matter in the grand scheme of things?

Whether your Church is "Church in the Spirit" or The church at Bob Greene's house ,the most important thing is are you on that narrow path the Bible speaks of.
I am not one to quickly condemn or write off any Church that chooses any local doctrines as long as it does not contradict Biblical teachings and as long as they don't condemn or see other Churches as Babylonian just because they don't abide by their own human doctrines.
Whether you wear or don't wear earings,wear or don't wear trousers as a woman,put on make up or not or choose a name for your church or not.

The question should be are you saved,washed in the blood and awaiting his appearing.

The Bible says they'll know we are Christians when we have love one for another and all this little insisgnificant differences that will not take anyone to or from heaven should not be given the weight some Christians place on them.

We ought to worship on Saturdays only and all that crap ought not to be,unbelievers hwo should look up to us are not being challenged by all this war of denominations.
It makes no sense.

Tithe and Offering is necessary but you need to know that you cannot buy protection you must be holy and serve God.

babyosisi:

why are you always so dogmatic?

Dogma goes hand in hand with tradition and denominationalism. As I have no received traditions and don't belong to any denomination, could you please accuse me of something else. Thank you.

babyosisi:

Do any of these matter in the grand scheme of things?

I think so, more importantly I believe the Bible attests to it. As ever, you are at liberty to feel as you wish on that point.

babyosisi:

Whether your Church is "Church in the Spirit" or The church at Bob Greene's house

Like I said, I don't have a church . I belong to it (The Church of The Lord Jesus Christ). I worship wherever, whenenever and with whomever. Simple.

babyosisi:

I am not one to quickly condemn or write off any Church

One could go further and not see "church/es" (as in denominations/traditions), but see individual believers.

babyosisi:

that chooses any local doctrines as long as it does not contradict Biblical teachings

I examine each precept (as much as it is core/essential) on it's own merits and trust to be led into all truth by The Holy Spirit & The Word.

babyosisi:

and as long as they don't condemn or see other Churches as Babylonian just because they don't abide by their own human doctrines.

Like I said, I don't view things on a church by church basis. I see my fellowship as with individuals.

Babylon is real. How you choose to discern and respond to it is your responsibility.

babyosisi:

Whether you wear or don't wear earings,wear or don't wear trousers as a woman,put on make up or not or choose a name for your church or not.

I think my response so far have spoken to this.

babyosisi:

The question should be are you saved,washed in the blood and awaiting his appearing.

Agreed.
Which presumably is a question one would address to individuals and not corporately. Again see my responses above.

babyosisi:

The Bible says they'll know we are Christians when we have love one for another and all this little insisgnificant differences that will not take anyone to or from heaven should not be given the weight some Christians place on them.

True to the love bit!
Not all differences are insignificant, but in those that are we have liberty.

babyosisi:

We ought to worship on Saturdays only and all that crap ought not to be,unbelievers hwo should look up to us are not being challenged by all this war of denominations.

Confused maybe, but not challenged !

babyosisi:

It makes no sense.

If you mean denominationalism and the stand off between various factions, then I agree, which is why I don't belong to any denomination or subscribe to any tradition wholesale.

I hope that clarifies things.

Backslider:

Tithe and Offering is necessary but you need to know that you cannot buy protection you must be holy and serve God.

No Backslider, Nothing in NT Christianity (including offering) is by compulsion. And the tithe is not even a Christian notion.

God bless

quote Scripture and let me know where you anchor from ?

Backslider:

quote Scripture and let me know where you anchor from ?

There is a thread we we have discussed the doctrinal aspects of theis exhaustively. Please review that and if you still have concerns, ask away and I will answer quoting and expounding the relevant scripture.

God bless

before The Law there was Offering.

Read the Account of Cain and Abel.

Before they offered where was it written that they should offer sacrifice?

It was there Duty they knew this from there parents.

knowitall:

4 times exhaustively to be exact.

If you mean the thread on "tithe", good effort. So what do you think?

Backslider:

before The Law there was Offering.

True, but that speaks nothing to a mandatory tithe

God bless

TV01,

TV01:


Really? What would they be? Please expound on this. The law is bondage and for the flesh. It's for the ungodly. Whilst the law is good and holy and just, Christians don't attain to righteousness or blessings through keeping it or being bound by it in part or in whole.

I thought you would know that law has its curses as well as blessings. Because Jesus redeemed from the curse of the law, in order that we might enjoy the blessings of the law.
Since you dont know, I'll give you some examples of Blessings of the law:
1. Seed time and Harvest

If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:
3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

5 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed.

6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.

7 The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.

8 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.

9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in his ways. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you. 11 The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your forefathers to give you.

12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.
You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none.
13 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom.
14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.



Furthermore, you seem to have removed the OT from your own bible. Have you not heard that we are sons of Abraham by the covenant?

TV01:



Let me take a wild guess RCCG or some other Pentacostal outfit?

Since you are curious, I attend any church where I feel led by the holy spirit. I have visited with a few churches and fellowship groups over the years.

However, I believe that the body of Christ would not benefit much from us overly focussing on what denomination one attends.

God Bless

Grouppoint:

I thought you would know that law has its curses as well as blessings. Because Jesus redeemed from the curse of the law, in order that we might enjoy the blessings of the law.

I don't agree. I see it as follows;

~ While the law was in effect it had blessings & curses for obedience or disobedience.
~ Yes, The Lord died so as to redeem us from the law
~ But not so that we might enjoy the blessings of the law
~ It was so that we could be "justified by faith"
~ And, I now understand, inherit eternal life, which was not a promise of the law.

Grouppoint:

Furthermore, you seem to have removed the OT from your own bible. Have you not heard that we are sons of Abraham by the covenant?

I believe in the OT as much as the NT, but I am careful to distinguish between and apply the two.

~ One can live a Christian life solely on the basis of the NT (I'm not saying discard the OT).
~ I thought we where son's of "believing Abraham" by faith (by promise)
~ Said promise being 400 years before the law (said law has been annulled)

May I just say that an unhealthy obsession and/or mis-applying the OT in NT Christian life, leads to the rebuilding again of the things Christ died to free us from.

1. A restricted place of worship
2. Physical building in this place
3. A mediatory Priesthood (MOG) to administer worship (go to/represent God for/to beievers)
4. Mandatory Sacrifices (Tithe)
5. Ritual holy days (Sabbaths etc)

And other such works. Ultimately, subscribing to such means that Christ will profit you nothing.

Grouppoint:

Since you are curious, I attend any church where I feel led by the holy spirit. I have visited with a few churches and fellowship groups over the years.

I wasn't curious, I was just being extra. Apologies. It's just that one tends to find this kind of stuff peddled in such places.

Grouppoint:

However, I believe that the body of Christ would not benefit much from us overly focussing on what denomination one attends.

Absolutely. I more than agree. Indeed, I believe denominationalism is a blight on the Body. I also think God will at some stage do away with it.

Grouppoint:

God Bless

You too dude.

TV01
According to the bible, Christ has redeemed us from of the curse of the law (and not from the entire law as you alluded)

Since you agree from Deut 28 that the obedience or disobedience to the Law has its blessings and Curses, and Christ redeemed us from the curse, then you should know that we can then freely enjoy the blessings of the law.

Back to the topic. If according to Malachi the prophet, God has promised us more blessings than we can have room to contain, if we pay our tithes and offerings. I consider this a law and the blessings which accrue to it are blessings of the law.

You may say that it was OT or meant for a certain group of israel, but like I said, we are children of Abraham according to the promise, hence we can tap into this blessing.

Grouppoint:

According to the bible, Christ has redeemed us from of the curse of the law (and not from the entire law as you alluded)

Hi Grouppoint, I'll try not to be tedious.

If you believe that Christ redeemed us only from the curse of the law (and not the burden of keeping it), leaving the blessing freely available, let me postulate this;

- To avail oneself of the blessing of the law, would one not have to to adhere to it?
- To adhere to any point of the law is to be bound by the whole of it.
- To attempt to be justified by law, means one falls from grace.
- To fall from grace means you ceased to profit from The lords work, having opted for a works based salvation.

Point 1 - All the blessing From God in Christ jesus are by Grace. Freely e has hiven us all things richly to enjoy. God does not require our works to bless us

Point 2 - In a very real sense, you may be right about attaching blessings to keeping the law. But the end of the believers faith is salvation, that is everlasting life. As I mentioned earlier, it is not promised under the law, righteousness is always inputed by faith.

Grouppoint:

Back to the topic. If according to Malachi the prophet, God has promised us more blessings than we can have room to contain, if we pay our tithes and offerings. I consider this a law and the blessings which accrue to it are blessings of the law.

If by us you mean NT Christians, then I don't believe Malachi was addressing us. He was addressing them. That is OT Jews. The law they were under has been annulled. We (Us) were never under that law. mandatory tithing is simply not a Christian notion. 

Point 3 - A lot of what purports to be Christianity these days is a wierd mix of indigenous socio-cultural practice, mixed with selected Jewish rituals (and quite likely other sundry beliefs ).

Grouppoint:

You may say that it was OT or meant for a certain group of israel, but like I said, we are children of Abraham according to the promise, hence we can tap into this blessing.

This is a contradiction. I believe I made the distinction between the promise (recieved by faith) and the law (apprehended by works). The former leading to eternal reward and the latter bringong only temporal blessings. The first given to the sons of Abrahmam by faith the latter by law. You can't apprehend the promise by recourse to the law.

Pertinent to note that the Jews declared themselves Abrahams seed. But that did not qualify them for the eternal blessing. Only those who are of like faith with believing Abraham are sons and inheritors of the promise.

Point 4 - One of the wierd/scary outworkings of so applying OT/law based religion instead of or alongside NT/Grace based faith is that people who are not physically Jewish attempt to plead the covenants. People who claim to be Christians try and live by law. So They at once deny what they claim to be and try and become what they can never be. Niether fish nor fowl.

I hesitate to suggest where that leaves such a one.

God bless

^{Apologies for not quoting chaoter and verse, I'm a little tired. I am hapy to do so if you would like.}

Grouppoint

Grouppoint:

TV01


Back to the topic. If according to Malachi the prophet, God has promised us more blessings than we can have room to contain, if we pay our tithes and offerings. I consider this a law and the blessings which accrue to it are blessings of the law.

Malachi was talking to the Jews, tithing was only relevant to them at that point in time, Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law , our salvation is not by good works, it is by grace.

Come to think of it how may tithing christains do you know who have been blessed so much that they do not have room to contain it ?

You are in the UK right ?, look around you see the number of magnificient mosques and temples being built by moslems, hindus e.t.c, then look at what we christains have as places of worship, surely if the congregations were being blessed as promised they would be able to afford to purchase their places of worship.

God is not a liar, its the preachers who have taken the above verse and quoted it out of context that are making God look like a liar.

We need to make a distinction here.

We are saved by grace through faith. Right? This is salvation. period.

Blessing is another thing. The laws I elaborated earlier have nothing to with grace or religion or denomination.
Hence the mosques and temples and banks and businesses are getting blessed simply because they are applying for themselves these eternal laws.
God is no respecter of persons. Hence if a muslim decides to apply the principle of seed time and harvest, he will be blessed (enabled to prosper).

We are not referring to works based or grace based salvation. we are talking about blessings here on earth, and how you acquire it.