Posted by: petres_007
Insert Quote
Quote from: aletheia on April 12, 2010, 09:38 PM
Yes . . .and No

From a human viewpoint-Yes

But from God's perspective-No


I agree!
Posted on: Today at 12:27:11 AMPosted by:

I will show you soon why every believer must take a stand.

ikhideman:

There's no such thing as losing salvation.

Simply put, the summary of what I said is: if by confessing with your mouth & believing in your heart that Jesus is Lord you r saved, you would have to denounce Jesus from your heart to be become an unbeliever - and hence have d Devil as a father. Doesn't mean you "lost salvation."

Its all about believing. As someone wrote above, check out Hebrews 6:4-6.

These things shouldn't bother you as a believer; just study the Word more and as you do, always ask for Wisdom & revelation in the Knowledge of God. If you happen to meet anyone who says he was once a christian, and claims to be no longer one, all he has to do is rededicate his life back to God as in Rom.10:9-10. The Word of God is Our Guide as believers!!

Cheers,

Thanks.
It no longer bothers me. I found assurance of salvation in The Bible about 15 years ago.
My bother is for brethrens who are being deceived on this point and for many who have built structures on the belief that a believer can lose salvation.

^
Why the bother? At least according to you, they can't lose their salvation. Or you want them to be aware that you know something.

Image123:

^
Why the bother? At least according to you, they can't lose their salvation. Or you want them to be aware that you know something.

Exactly why is 5solas bothering himself on people that can never loose salvation. They can freely hold whatever belief they want, they won't loose their salvation, so what's the problem?
Sit back and relax.
Unless you do realise that one can loose salvation when they don't hold the true belief.

shaking my head at how illogical the Solas are.

~Lady~:

Exactly why is 5solas bothering himself on people that can never loose salvation. They can freely hold whatever belief they want, they won't loose their salvation, so what's the problem?
Sit back and relax.
Unless you do realise that one can loose salvation when they don't hold the true belief.

shaking my head at how illogical the Solas are.

Have you never experienced what level of absurdity the belief, that a believer can lose salvation(Arminianism) is taken to?Have you read the book,'24-Hour Interview In Hell', for instance? Please do and tell me if it's message is a reflection of the gospel and if this thread is needless. The book in question was very popular in the streets of Lagos in the year 1999, it still might be.

Image123
Why the bother? At least according to you, they can't lose their salvation. Or you want them to be aware that you know something



I want to demonstrate how weak the arguments of Arminianism are. I am sure not a few persons are shocked you are not able to defend your seeming lofty doctrine. Are my enquiries that seeks to bring out the  truth of this matter bothering you?
We want to learn your doctrine and look at it in the light of the scriptures, that’s all!

Arminianism (the teaching that a believer can lose salvation) does not seek to make a believer righteous, nor can it do it, being of the flesh. It seeks to take assurance from the believer ,that was and still is, its grand design. While we are dissecting it let’s be looking at passages that oppose it. One of which is:
Romans 8:28-29
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(KJV)

[/quote][quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=428061.msg5926682#msg5926682 date=1271808761]
Exactly why is 5solas bothering himself on people that can never loose salvation. They can freely hold whatever belief they want, they won't loose their salvation, so what's the problem?
Sit back and relax.
Unless you do realise that one can loose salvation when they don't hold the true belief.

shaking my head at how illogical the Solas are.

And while you are trying to get that book read the thread, ''Pastor Bimbo Odukoya Is In Hell?'' She's said to be there, because of (amongst other things), her miniskirts!

Have you never experienced what level of absurdity the belief, that a believer can lose salvation(Arminianism) is taken to?Have you read the book,'24-Hour Interview In Hell', for instance? Please do and tell me if it's message is a reflection of the gospel and if this thread is needless. The book in question was very popular in the streets of Lagos in the year 1999, it still might be.

Please do tell me what level?

This thread is not needless to me, but should be to you because according to you a believer cannot loose salvation, therefore it really doesn't matter if they don't agree with you as long as they believe they won't loose salvation.

It's a logic thing, u might not get it.

So 5solas wants to teach something, good. Teach on

~Lady~:

Please do tell me what level?

This thread is not needless to me, but should be to you because according to you a believer cannot loose salvation, therefore it really doesn't matter if they don't agree with you as long as they believe they won't loose salvation.

It's a logic thing, u might not get it.

I ought indeed to have elaborated on the level of absurdity.
First of all a believer can lose salvation if they are not 100% holy.
No matter how committed a believer is they can go to hell for one sin, one slip.
The threat of losing salvation hangs just above the head of every Christian like the sword of Damocles.
Female believers can go to hell for wearing miniskirts, trousers, earrings,laces, not covering their heads,  e.t.c
These are some of the absurdities.
Please endeavour to read the aforementioned book for more as well as to get my drift.
And lest I forget, we both hold this thread needful!

Image123
Insert Quote
So 5solas wants to teach something, good. Teach on


Thanks. Of all the concepts then, I will start with 'good works' tomorrow, by His grace. Meanwhile let's hear our Lord on the certainty of our salvation:

John 17

1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
(KJV)

^
My point is exactly that you have no point teaching since 'we believers are all not losing our salvation after all'. Pray, teach us why on earth will Jesus pray for the disciples if they can't lose their salvation. Why is he praying that they be kept from the evil and not lost? Why is he praying that they should make it to heaven at last, and behold his glory?
Why the bother my brother?

Brothers let's put it simply this way, accepting christ and remaining in him guarantees salvation.  For instance, when a tree is not watered, it will definitely die, same here, when a christian is not constantly watered by the word of God, the result is death, which means no salvation.

Good to see it put that way. Hope others see it too.

In the scriptures it is clearly taught that the believer is not justified (saved) by keeping the law, nor are they justified (saved) by good works. They are said to be saved by grace through faith. These points are reiterated in virtually all the epistles of the apostle, Paul. For instances please read the whole of the epistle to the Galatians, Romans and Hebrews to get the message in context (but in particular (Gal. 2:14-21 - 4:7; 5:1-6; Rom. 3:19-5:21; 8: 1-39; Heb. 7:11-10:39.)).So many of us have read these verses but how many of us have really seen their import?. Many reading them would trivialize them, some would say, by saying justification (salvation) is not by keeping the law Paul was referring to the ceremonial law. But even if we grant the argument that that was the case, then what was he trying to say? Justification (salvation) is not by the law, so what? But a closer look at these passages tells us that he was saying that it is not deserved. Some of us understand this and say we do not keep the law to be saved, but when we are saved we have to keep the law or we will not be saved! Some of us say he is referring to the law and not the commandments! If we are not to keep the law to get salvation, are we to keep the commandments to get salvation?If true then the whole disputation of Paul amounts to nothing. But the truth of the matter is that the law and the commandments are one and the same. If we hold them to be different, then we would be saying that God does not expect believers to keep the law which would be tantamount to preaching licentiousness (which I know a lot of people are hoping I won't preach!)
Something else we should note also is that Paul is saying this to BELIEVERS! If he were saying it to unbelievers then the objections I have noted above would have been justified, but this is not the case. Let’s study these passages and answer the question, Can A Believer Lose Salvation?
If they can, why not start the argument from their not keeping the commandments? A lot of preachers who argue that a believer can lose salvation base their argument on the believer not doing good works whereas Paul charges them not to think their salvation is due to their good works.
Are good works therefore unnecessary in the life of believers? If they are necessary, what is their role?
Paul gives the answer in his epistles always after impressing upon them that their salvation was not deserved. He urges them to leave as people should who have been saved. He tells them to start doing good works now that they are saved. He tells them that those who are saved have their lives characterised by holy living.
Rom3: 31: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.(KJV)
Well then, if we are saved by faith,does this mean we no longer need obey God’s laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.(TheLiving Bible)


We do and are enjoined to do good works after we are saved, this should tell us that good works are the effects of our salvation but not the cause .

Titus 3


5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Rom. 3:27,28.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. KJV

27. Then what can we boast about doing, to earn our salvation? Nothing at all.Why?Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds; it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in him.
28.So it is that we are saved by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do.(TLB)

If there's no possibility of losing salvation as a believer, can some one then explain the parable of the ten virgins to me. Are they not all believers, or who are the five foolish virgins refering to?

ogwumgbe:

If there's no possibility of losing salvation as a believer, can some one then explain the parable of the ten virgins to me. Are they not all believers, or who are the five foolish virgins refering to?

Even if I don't know anything else in the bible, I know this: it does not teach salvation can be lost, if it did, it would contradict it’s teaching that salvation was by grace. In most of the passages of the bible, believers are distinguished from unbelievers and their ends spelt out and I am certain it is the same here. You are presuming the ten virgins were believers. Let us consider  verse 30 to 46 of Matt.25, the same book and chapter you are referring to. A casual look at this passage would cause one to suppose the sheep were going to heaven because of their good works while the goats were going to hell because of their lack of good works, right? Where then is the reference to faith or the lack of it? What persons did the sheep represent?How about the goats? According to Jesus what persons would not perish but have eternal life?The sheep would go to heaven not because of their good works but because of their belief (faith). This faith translates to good works.We are back were we started: we do not do good works to be saved but are saved to do good works!
Be informed that those who  would go to heaven (the wise virgins, the sheep) are believers. The illustration runs through the whole bible.

Since God has done everything to accomplish his salvation (elected him, paid for his sins, and given him a new resurrected soul, which are necessary for the salvation of all the elect), that person can be certain that he can never lose his salvation. The seed that remains in him is Christ (Galatians 3:16). Once he becomes saved, he has eternal security. God has already accomplished everything necessary to give him eternal life. Therefore, a true believer can never lose his salvation. The Bible says there is no sin, nor anything else, that can separate a true believer from the love of God (Romans 8:35-39).

toluxa1:

Since God has done everything to accomplish his salvation (elected him, paid for his sins, and given him a new resurrected soul, which are necessary for the salvation of all the elect), that person can be certain that he can never lose his salvation. The seed that remains in him is Christ (Galatians 3:16). Once he becomes saved, he has eternal security. God has already accomplished everything necessary to give him eternal life. Therefore, a true believer can never lose his salvation. The Bible says there is no sin, nor anything else, that can separate a true believer from the love of God (Romans 8:35-39).

Thanks for your response.Well spoken.

Is it not to be wondered that people who believe that a believer can lose salvation have not even cited deficiency of good works as a reason? What do we hear daily in our churches? If I believed a believer can be lost I would start from there and show 5Solas the deficiencies of his 47th post.

You're ignoring the fact that nobody has said that salvation is gotten by good works. Grace is what saves us, your question is AFTER this saving/salvation, can we lose it? The answer is yes, mr, yes. God will not warn us if there's no danger.take heed, beware, lest he fall, or be a castaway, or return to wallowing in the mire.

The fall being talked about here is not the loss of salvation. Remember in what the scriptures says. Even though the righteous falls seven times, He will SURELY rise again. You have to create harmony in the scriptures before you can have truth.

^Good to see you pick and choose. I also prefer obj to theory. I'll leave your statement at that, for now.

I find it quite hard to understand your points and comments. What point did you raise in your last comment now.

^
I 'quoted' 5 portions of scripture telling us something is at stake. You chose 1 of them that seemed convenient. Sorry, but I'll leave it at that again for now.

Judas iscariot is a perfect example that one could lose his salvation. He was among the twelve, and followed Jesus christ where ever he went, like other apostles. Also, witnessed all the miracles that jesus christ did, he was even the treasurer, and preached the gospel with them in mathew chapter 10 when the Lord sent them to preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was very happy with the other apostles when they witnessed that the devil bowed down to them as they spoke in the name of Jesus Christ, but what happened after all these, he lost his salvation. Jesus Christ in the book of jn 8 vs 32, if you continue in my word, then are u my disciples indeed, also revelation chapter 2 and 3 explains the possiblity of losing salvation more clearly, or even romans 11, where some people will be taken out for the jews to come in, brothers, do not be deceived by this grace stuff, in fact , the grace is given you to enable you remain strongly in Jesus. There's nothing like automatic visa to heaven, st paul said " work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

Image123:

^
I 'quoted' 5 portions of scripture telling us something is at stake. You chose 1 of them that seemed convenient. Sorry, but I'll leave it at that again for now.

First of all I didnt know you were quoting 5 portions of scriptures as you didnt indicate that. Secondly all of those phrases or words are still pointers to SOME KIND OF FALL OF THE BELIEVER and so I took one.

ogwumgbe:

Judas iscariot is a perfect example that one could lose his salvation. He was among the twelve, and followed Jesus christ where ever he went, like other apostles. Also, witnessed all the miracles that jesus christ did, he was even the treasurer, and preached the gospel with them in mathew chapter 10 when the Lord sent them to preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was very happy with the other apostles when they witnessed that the devil bowed down to them as they spoke in the name of Jesus Christ, but what happened after all these, he lost his salvation. Jesus Christ in the book of jn 8 vs 32, if you continue in my word, then are u my disciples indeed, also revelation chapter 2 and 3 explains the possiblity of losing salvation more clearly, or even romans 11, where some people will be taken out for the jews to come in, brothers, do not be deceived by this grace stuff, in fact , the grace is given you to enable you remain strongly in Jesus. There's nothing like automatic visa to heaven, st paul said " work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

This is totally false. All the things you outline that he did were (and are) never a proof of salvation. There are all works and no man is saved through His works. Judas Iscariot was NEVER a saved man.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

And that is why we read in Mat 7:

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These people had qualities of a saved person. They did many wonderful works but in the end . . . we see what Christ tells them. THEY WERE NEVER SAVED.

What is salvation? it is the filling of the spirit of the believer with the Holy Ghost such that the believer disappears/ dies (in spirit).  You will understand this statement if you have revelation knowledge of your salvation.

"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God."Colossians 3:3

This fusion of shekina glory with the spirit of the believer cannot be reversed as God cannot breach his everlasting covenant made with the Trinity.

For more details, read Charles Spurgeon:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0277.htm

After salvation, the believer is not responsible for his righteousness and therefore cannot lose salvation on that ground as he was saved by grace and the Holy Ghost will not let him sin on purpose unless there are specific lessons to be learnt from it.

Judas Iscariot was NEVER a saved man? wetin we no go hear.

toluxa1:

The fall being talked about here is not the loss of salvation. Remember in what the scriptures says. Even though the righteous falls seven times, He will SURELY rise again. You have to create harmony in the scriptures before you can have truth.

What? You thought I was quoting my biology textbook?

Image123:

Judas Iscariot was NEVER a saved man? wetin we no go hear.What? You thought I was quoting my biology textbook?

Again Its quite difficult to know exactly what you're saying here. But if you're saying that my above statement of Judas is wrong, Can you proof to me from the bible sir, that Judas Iscariot was a saved man? I'm waiting. (seriously I want to learn as long as it comes from the bible and there is harmony between the whole scripture).

Image123:

Judas Iscariot was NEVER a saved man? wetin we no go hear.What? You thought I was quoting my biology textbook?

Again Its quite difficult to know exactly what you're saying here. But if you're saying that my above statement of Judas is wrong, Can you proof to me from the bible sir, that Judas Iscariot was a saved man? I'm waiting. (seriously I want to learn as long as it comes from the bible and there is harmony between the whole scripture).