ogwumgbe:

. . .st paul said " work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

This verse should be somewhere in Romans (can't remember). You just Isolated the verse to prove whatever works gospel you're trying to prove. But the verse that immediately follows it explains it with something like "For it is God that worketh in you both to will and do of His good pleasure. . .". So you see, the working of your own salvation is not even your own work but it is God that works in you. This totally nolifies your point.

I do not think that a "believer" one who has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour can loose his salvation as long as he holds on to his faith and belief in Christ as his Lord and Saviour. 

Judas lost his salvation by denying Christ but Peter kept his even though he too denied Christ. The difference is that Judas BETRAYED Christ but Peter DENIED Him 'escapistly'.

However, a believer can loose the rewards of every good works he did as a believer while on planet earth. 

Notwithstanding he who thinks that he stands should be careful so as not to fall!

Image123:

You're ignoring the fact that nobody has said that salvation is gotten by good works. Grace is what saves us, your question is AFTER this saving/salvation, can we lose it? The answer is yes, mr, yes. God will not warn us if there's no danger.take heed, beware, lest he fall, or be a castaway, or return to wallowing in the mire.

It is not enough for you to say they can lose it,you have to show how they may. Nothing has to be admitted as being taught in the scriptures, which cannot be proved to a certainty.

toluxa1:

The fall being talked about here is not the loss of salvation. Remember in what the scriptures says. Even though the righteous falls seven times, He will SURELY rise again. You have to create harmony in the scriptures before you can have truth.

Yes,because God keeps him; the scriptures are endless (1Cor.1:8,1Thess.3:13,Jude 24,Rom.16:25,Phil.1:6 e.t.c)

BigBashiru:

What is salvation? it is the filling of the spirit of the believer with the Holy Ghost such that the believer disappears/ dies (in spirit). You will understand this statement if you have revelation knowledge of your salvation.

"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God."Colossians 3:3

This fusion of shekina glory with the spirit of the believer cannot be reversed as God cannot breach his everlasting covenant made with the Trinity.

For more details, read Charles Spurgeon:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0277.htm

After salvation, the believer is not responsible for his righteousness and therefore cannot lose salvation on that ground as he was saved by grace and the Holy Ghost will not let him sin on purpose unless there are specific lessons to be learnt from it.

You have hit a vital point in this whole argument. What happened on the believer's conversion is not reversed,they did not get saved by merit (righteousness) in the first place!(Gal.3:1-5).
I share your love for Spurgeon's work and have already saved the page you cited.

Image123:

Judas Iscariot was NEVER a saved man? wetin we no go hear.What? You thought I was quoting my biology textbook?

Please do not be surprised. Do a study of the elects and of election, you will be enlightened by it. Judas was not an elect.I will repeat part of my 20th post:
''Matt.24:22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:22 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Why would those days be shorthened?
Can the elects (believers) be deceived?
Can the elects (believers) be other than saved? Can A Believer Lose Salvation?''

Judas was never saved.

toluxa1:

This verse should be somewhere in Romans (can't remember). You just Isolated the verse to prove whatever works gospel you're trying to prove. But the verse that immediately follows it explains it with something like "For it is God that worketh in you both to will and do of His good pleasure. . .". So you see, the working of your own salvation is not even your own work but it is God that works in you. This totally nolifies your point.

It is actually Phil.2:12,13.
Ogwumgbe, quotes verse 12 as though it says , ''work for your salvation''. The next verse as you pointed out ,refutes him.

femi adams:

Judas lost his salvation by denying Christ but Peter kept his even though he too denied Christ. The difference is that Judas BETRAYED Christ but Peter DENIED Him 'escapistly'.

However, a believer can loose the rewards of every good works he did as a believer while on planet earth.

Notwithstanding he who thinks that he stands should be careful so as not to fall!

Please do not forget Jesus forewarned Peter of this sin and assured him He had prayed for him.Peter's perseverance in faith was of Christ,not himself!

1stly, let me say that Judas was saved. He was numbered with the apostles. Jesus said he had a place in heaven, judging the 12tribes of Israel.
Acts 1v17. He was NUMBERED with us, and HAD OBTAINED part of this ministry. He had a 'bishoprick'.
This passage alone refutes youR claims that one cannot lose salvation. Judas lost it, brother.

In John 17, Jesus Christ prayed that his disciples be kept. Why pray for someone to be kept if it's not probable/possible to be 'unkept'. Jesus in the same chapter spake of the disciples(including Judas) as out of the world. Verse 6 thine they are, they HAVE KEPT my word.
Another verse says none of them is lost but one. Evidently, he was found before getting lost.

Image123:

Judas Iscariot was NEVER a saved man? wetin we no go hear.What? You thought I was quoting my biology textbook?

Interesting thread. However, one cannot argue Judas Iscariot being a saved man - those who do not see it so may appeal to any number of verses for their arguments. An example is this one:

[list]Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. [John 6:70-71][/list]

I don't know, but did you consider that also?

To other issues, 2Corinthians 13v5: Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith.
Here, believers are told to check up. Why check up if it's impossible to lose salvation.
More specific is Ezekiel 18v24.edited
But when the righteous TURNETH AWAY from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be mentioned: in his sin shall he die.
Verse 25 gets it more spiced up.

Viaro
Welcome back from where you went. is it me or did someone else notice that a 'one after the order of viaro' shows up anytime you take a leave? Should we wish for more disappearances or build 3tabernacles right away. Good to see you back though.
I've seen John 6v70,71. I like to note though that John was writing in retrospect. I know ONE was a 'devil', but I'M NOT SURE the exact one was known prior.

Image123:

Viaro
Welcome back from where you went. is it me or did someone else notice that a 'one after the order of viaro' shows up anytime you take a leave? Should we wish for more disappearances or build 3tabernacles right away. Good to see you back though.

Haha ... the ways of the Lord are mysterious, so they say. It so happens that when viaro appears, the 'order' somewhat disappears! Not even a peek into any one of the 3 tabs would suffice. Funny.

Image123:
I've seen John 6v70,71. I like to note though that John was writing in retrospect. I know ONE was a 'devil', but I'M NOT SURE the exact one was known prior.

Okay, that's great to know. I lean a bit towards your take on those verses ... just a bit. Apart from the clarification offered in John 6:71 that the Lord was referring to Judas Iscariot, I'm also at this time not so sure about all that surrounds Judas. Especially so is the case, when we read Acts 1:20 - 'For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.'

However, although I drew from your previous quote about Judas having been a saved man (which I noted is doubtful), there's just another disciple that was remonstrated in similar terms by the Lord: "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matt. 16:23).

So, someone else could make a similar argument as to whether Peter was also a saved man. And should the answer be a resounding yes, the logical question would be: on what basis? For we see that although the Lord had indicated that Judas was 'a devil' among the Twelve whom he had chosen (John 6:70-71), yet His remonstrance of Peter was even stronger (thou art an offence unto me). Phew.

What now? The argument could even be made that the matter did not rest merely on these two disciples, but on a few others (although it does not seem that these others were particularly named). See again in that same John 6:64 where Jesus said to His disciples - "But there are some of you that believe not. . . " Just so we make no mistakes about it, the other part of that verse seems to have delineated between these groups: "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him".

It is at this point, we might need to consider again a basic question: what is 'salvation'? Perhaps when we have considered that question, it might become easier to understand what follows as to whether a saved person can then become unsaved afterwards. Just a thought for now.

Now I need to go check those 3 tabernacles.

^my bad, sorry. Was I dreaming or was I busy meditating on the size of the tabernacles? Jesus knew prior the ONE.
But betraying him or denying him do not rule out the possibility that they were saved before these actions. Salvation is believing in Jesus, the 12disciples believed in Jesus and they were assured of a place in the kingdom, judging the 12tribes. I won't like to expound salvation more.( We observe the possibilities of such in the thread yonder)

Image123:

I won't like to expound salvation more.( We observe the possibilities of such in the thread yonder)

True - I've been trying to go through the interesting inputs in some of those threads. The threads move quickly.

Image123:
But betraying him or denying him do not rule out the possibility that they were saved before these actions. Salvation is believing in Jesus, the 12disciples believed in Jesus and they were assured of a place in the kingdom, judging the 12tribes.

Although the possibility is hard to deny outrightly, there are a load of questions when it comes to details around specific cases, don't you think so? Peter, Judas, and "some" of the other disciples ... just intriguing.

However, although the book of Revelation makes a case for the names of apostles who judge the Twelve Tribes of Israel (Rev. 21:12-14), should that not rather be symbolic? Just my thinking, but it seems so to me in view of the fact that the Church had/has more than twelve apostles (if you consider Paul and Barnabas at the very least in addition to the Twelve, Judas having fallen to go to his own place while Matthias takes his place - Acts 1:26).

In all, it's an interesting subject - but our views would perhaps remain our views. There are some who believe that a saved person might become unsaved afterwards; others are persuaded that is not the case. I once tried to look at the verses used by either side of the divide - to me, most of the inferences gathered do not help either position.

Image123:

In John 17, Jesus Christ prayed that his disciples be kept. Why pray for someone to be kept if it's not probable/possible to be 'unkept'. Jesus in the same chapter spake of the disciples(including Judas) as out of the world. Verse 6 thine they are, they HAVE KEPT my word.
Another verse says none of them is lost but one. Evidently, he was found before getting lost.

Who is doing the keeping? Will there 'unkeep' themselves?If they keep themselves, your argument would hold water, but these verses show that God does the keeping. Go through the new testament ,and the old! The verses are endless.

@image. I have discovered that you don't really understand the concept of God's Salvation plan and how it works. It applies to many people because of the works gospel the church has been preaching. That's why I have not commented yet on you posts cos there is no way I can do that without having to go through the issue of What is God's Salvation Plan for Mankind. What does it mean to be saved. I'm posting from my mobile so that will be really difficult.

Image123:


I've seen John 6v70,71. I like to note though that John was writing in retrospect. I know ONE was a 'devil', but I'M NOT SURE the exact one was known prior.

You cannot rightly note he was writing in retrospect. You may believe so, and you may believe also that when Jesus asked Peter in Matt 17:27 to
’’   go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.’’, He was speaking in retrospect! If He had foreknowledge at all ,it was mutable! In fact, so mutable that Peter would obey and observe that the events would happen, as the Lord had spoken!

viaro
Yes there are lot of questions but fortunately lot of answers given by God as well.
I think Matthew 19v28 captured the 12thrones analogy better.
"Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
In all, I believe the biggest lesson still comes from the mouth of Christ. He says what I say to you, I say to all, WATCH. Whatever side of the divide, we should not be careless or lascivious with God's grace as some boldly proclaim. Blessings

5solas
It's actually possible to 'unkeep' one's self. It's like one has been provided for and protected by a bigger body(government/parent). That person can still suffer himself or harm himself physically despite the security measures in place.
Some say that the dog that will get missing doesn't listen to the hunter's call. Jesus says I am with you always but fact remains that the sheep can stray away of his own will. The master never left, the sheep left.
Jude 21 'gives me some water to hold' by saying "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God." No doubt, God wants to keep and CAN keep, but we've got our little part to play

toluxa
God's salvation plan for mankind? Are you on nairaland at all? There are threadS on that already. Perhaps, you could help THEM discover something maybe. BTW, I thought we were discussing about AFTER salvation, can it be lost or not. Not how can it be obtained.

5solas
I said John was writing in retrospect(looking back). I didn't say Jesus was speaking in retrospect

One very SERIOUS problem I discovered alot of people have with bible study is the way the take the scriptures soooo literallily. When you begin to understand the spirituality of God's word, things like this (judging the twelve tribes of Israel with on twelve thrones) will not be an obstacle for you. If you really believe that on the last day. The very actual twelve disciples of Jesus sitting on thrones will be judging the very twelve tribes of National Israel, then you have a long way to go bro. I don't know where to start on this.

EXACTLY! If you don't have a proper understanding on How it is obtained, then there is no way you can know the 'AFTER' (whether or not it can be lost). The foundation is the problem bro.

Great. For the sake of emphasis, I wish to re-establish my position that no believer loses his salvation unless he refutes his earlier confession of Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Anyone who confesses and holds on to his confession that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour of his life remain eternally saved.

HOWEVER, any believer who sins aginst The Holy Spirit, has by implication and application of gross offence of DISOBEDIENCE to specific divine instruction, DENIED that Jesus was no longer his Lord and Saviour and this could lead to him loosing his salvation.

SO, the question here is that no BELIEVER anyone who confesses and keeps on confessing Jesus as the LORD (controller and director) of his life can loose his salvation.
Rather, he may loose the reward of his "good works" with wrong motive and intent. Among such 'good works' are preaching, evangelising, healing, deliverance, giving, visiting and the rest with the aim of attracting self-appraisal and applause of others. It means that if this piece was written so I could win the applause of this forum, I have waisted my precious time and money before God but that won't stop me from making heaven!

Image123:

viaro
Yes there are lot of questions but fortunately lot of answers given by God as well.
I think Matthew 19v28 captured the 12thrones analogy better.
"Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

True, we can find veritable answers in God's Word to those questions. I like the thought that Matt. 19:28 presents an 'analogy', as I don't think it was meant to be taken literally (otherwise we could extend it to mean that Judas is expected to be among those who judge the twelve tribes of Israel).

In all, I believe the biggest lesson still comes from the mouth of Christ. He says what I say to you, I say to all, WATCH. Whatever side of the divide, we should not be careless or lascivious with God's grace as some boldly proclaim. Blessings

Truer words, thank you.

However, just to clarify on what I said earlier:

viaro:

I once tried to look at the verses used by either side of the divide - to me, most of the inferences gathered do not help either position.

By that I meant that some of us who use analogies to buttress our persuasions should be careful. The salvation that Christ gives us goes deeper than many of the analogies we use (and I ask forgiveness for not having read through every single post in this thread).

Here's an example of what I'm trying to say:

Image123:

If you can lose your life savings, then you can lose your salvation. It's that simple.

No, it's not that simple - the analogy does not fit. One's 'life savings' pertains to what they worked for; but salvation is a gift by grace and it's free. We already know that we cannot confuse work for grace (Romans 11:6 - 'And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work'); and thus we cannot destine them to be on the same pedestal.

Indeed, there are warnings to believers in Scripture (both OT and NT): but what is the nature of such warnings to us? Are they warning us about losing salvation or about losing rewards?

Rewards pertain to our works that follow salvation - and there is more than enough to show that we can lose our reward(s) [2 John 1:8 for example].

Salvation pertains to God's work in us following our genuine repentance - I don't know if the Bible warns us of the possibility of becoming 'unsaved' after having been 'saved'. And this is where it all gets knotty for many of us who are grappling with a clear understanding of the 'salvation' of which we speak.

Considering these two issues (between rewards and salvation) in this manner, I think aletheia has captured the essential answer to the basic question of the thread much earlier:

aletheia:

Yes . . .and No

From a human viewpoint-Yes

But from God's perspective-No

I could elaborate where need be. Cheers.

@viaro. For the first time I'm going to respond to you. The reason I have not earlier is because I discovered you have a light of the truth of this matter and a better understanding of how God's Salvation plan is but you have been sitting on the fence ever since you surfaced. Now with you last post you have hit it on the head. This are exactly the things I've been trying to point out to Image. He says the discussion is not about how Salvation is gotten, but whether or not it can be lost. But thats not possible is you don't even know how its gotten. Salvation is much more than 'Believe in the Lord, and thou shall be saved'. I think you should check the thread "Not Ordained to Life Eternal" on this page. We're discussing related things there.

viaro:

Here's an example of what I'm trying to say:

No, it's not that simple - the analogy does not fit. One's 'life savings' pertains to what they worked for; but salvation is a gift by grace and it's free. We already know that we cannot confuse work for grace (Romans 11:6 - 'And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work'); and thus we cannot destine them to be on the same pedestal.

True words.

@toluxa1,

toluxa1:

@viaro. For the first time I'm going to respond to you. The reason I have not earlier is because I discovered you have a light of the truth of this matter and a better understanding of how God's Salvation plan is but you have been sitting on the fence ever since you surfaced.

I apologise - and you caught me red-handed! Indeed, I had not been forward to argue strongly on this subject for several reasons, especially because it is possible that I might be ignorant of some other verses which some more mature Christians have studied. Forgive me for sounding initially like I was sitting on the fence.

toluxa1:

Now with you last post you have hit it on the head. This are exactly the things I've been trying to point out to Image. He says the discussion is not about how Salvation is gotten, but whether or not it can be lost. But thats not possible is you don't even know how its gotten. Salvation is much more than 'Believe in the Lord, and thou shall be saved'. I think you should check the thread "Not Ordained to Life Eternal" on this page. We're discussing related things there.

The discussion in the recommended thread is quite interesting. I hope to add my bit sometime much later. Cheers.

The next concept I would like to look at is the Holy Spirit’s presence in the believer , to go straight to the point, if it can leave  the believer. First and foremost then let us consider why He was given, what He does and if He is said to leave the believer.
Why He was given
John 14
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, [b]that he may abide with you forever;[/b]17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you
John 16
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What  He Does
Eph.1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
2Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Gal.3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith?

I cannot see why anyone would teach that the Holy Spirit can leave a believer in the light of the above scriptures.
The spirit is supposed to be a comforter to the believer, if He leaves at the point when He is needed most, then what is the purpose of His coming? The argument that He cannot stay where there is sin is beaten down by, Rom 5:8-10,
‘8.But God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life’.
The Spirit came to us because of our faith, not good works; why are our sins advanced as a reason why the Spirit can leave? Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to cite lack of faith?
The reason why people teach that the Spirit can leave  a believer  is to give credence to the false doctrine that a believer can lose salvation(Arminianism), they seek consistency with Romans 8:9, ‘But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his’.

Can a believer lose salvation?

The way questions are posed can reveal quite a lot.

Firstly, "believing" does not make one "saved". Nor does it make one "born-again". To expound a little those experiences are neither simultaneous nor synonymous.

Upon believing, salvation is not necessarily a given, but upon grasping what true salvation is and believing Gods grace to attain it in Christ Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit, it cannot be lost. Though it could I guess be given up?

^{Following the WOF'ers vs. the non-WOFer's - yeah, I detest labels too  - discussion earlier, its easy to see how one side see the promises of God in Salvation in Christ and speak of though t experiencing them although they don't, whilst the other side not experiencing them, deny them although they are in clearly writ in scripture. Once salvation is properly understood and attained, all such contentions will cease.}

God bless
TV

All
Sorry for my absence. Pls, i hope not to be seen as stubborn.Ezekiel 33v11-16 is God's Word,not our thoughts.
13. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall SURELY live, if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousness shall NOT be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
i believe that God has not changed.

Viaro,
When I referred to an analogy, I had in mind the likeness between 12thrones in heaven and Judas' salvation.
When Jesus says to His disciples, "VERILY I SAY UNTO you ", I don't think it symbolic. Are we saying that Jesus was talking with tongue in cheek?