Matthew 19v28. And Jesus said unto them, VERILY I SAY unto you, that YE which have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, YE also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
This promise was repeated in Luke 22v30 at another occasion. Do we believe this?
My original point was that Judas was among those promised a place in heaven. Heaven is for saved people, Jesus wouldn't promise them thrones in Heaven if they were unsaved. Judas was saved but he lost his place, that's the purpose why the apostle had to replace him in Acts 1.
[edited]Acts 1v17 he was numbered, and had obtained
v22. MUST one be ordained.
v25. that he might go to HIS own place.
Yes, Judas was expected to be among those to judge the 12tribes but he by transgression fell

@toluxa1
The Word of God has literal meanings and sometimes/many times hidden meanings. Thou shall not steal is as literal as you can have it. Overspiritualising issues is one of the roots of christian backwardness and disunity. I tell you, even apostle Peter could be confused with some theology and doctrine that come up today, in the name of spirituality. No Word of God is of private interpretation.
I never mentioned that Matthew 19v28 was an obstacle to me. You seem to suggest this as you don't know where to start. Romans 4v21 might be a good place to start, i learnt and posted that today on the Today's Rhema thread.

@viaro & toluxa1
I was quoting Acts 16v31 where someone asked Paul and Silas "What must I do to be saved". The answer given was that simple. Jesus said in John 3 he that believes is not condemned, he that does not believe is condemned already. Another place, Jesus says he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Salvation can get that simple. I realise the need for growth and teaching and continuing in doctrine but this are not steps to salvation, less it become not of faith but of works.
Knowing the inside-out of how to get saved doesn't necessarily translate to salvation. One may know doctrine, and regeneration, and remission, and size and color of the paschal lamb and not be saved. One can have a healthy heart without knowledge of ventricles and auricles AND vice versa. Doctrine doesn't save us, it's faith that saves.

@viaro
Sorry I wasn't explicit when I said that if you can lose your life savings, then you can lose your salvation. My thinking in saying that, is that salvation is most precious than life savings. And if what many count as precious(life savings), and are careful about can be lost, then beware, salvation which we're often more negligent about and often commit into other(God, denomination, leaders and shepherd) hands, can be lost.
Jude in warning us talks of a loss of salvation
V 19. If any OF YOU do ERR FROM the truth, and one convert him. Verse 20. LET HIM KNOW, that he which converts the SINNER from the error of his way shall save a soul from DEATH, and hide a multitude of sins.
MORAL LESSON:The backslider is a sinner in death who needs a 're-saving'. This is not talking about works or rewards.
Blessings

Image123:

@viaro
Sorry I wasn't explicit when I said that if you can lose your life savings, then you can lose your salvation. My thinking in saying that, is that salvation is most precious than life savings. And if what many count as precious(life savings), and are careful about can be lost, then beware, salvation which we're often more negligent about and often commit into other(God, denomination, leaders and shepherd) hands, can be lost.
Jude in warning us talks of a loss of salvation
V 19. If any OF YOU do ERR FROM the truth, and one convert him. Verse 20. LET HIM KNOW, that he which converts the SINNER from the error of his way shall save a soul from DEATH, and hide a multitude of sins.
MORAL LESSON:The backslider is a sinner in death who needs a 're-saving'. This is not talking about works or rewards.
Blessings

In whose arms is the salvation of a believer ultimately, even if he is so gullible as to 'commit' it into ‘other hands’ as you say?
Are you saying the backslider is lost while still alive? By talking of a 're-saving’ are you saying he can get born-again again. Wetin we no go hear!

Image123:

@viaro & toluxa1
I was quoting Acts 16v31 where someone asked Paul and Silas "What must I do to be saved". The answer given was that simple. Jesus said in John 3 he that believes is not condemned, he that does not believe is condemned already. Another place, Jesus says he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Salvation can get that simple. I realise the need for growth and teaching and continuing in doctrine but this are not steps to salvation, less it become not of faith but of works.
Knowing the inside-out of how to get saved doesn't necessarily translate to salvation. One may know doctrine, and regeneration, and remission, and size and color of the paschal lamb and not be saved. One can have a healthy heart without knowledge of ventricles and auricles AND vice versa. Doctrine doesn't save us, it's faith that saves.

And he believed, but wasn’t saved presumably, because salvation is a process! ‘Believe’ as preached, was not in fact so, but ‘believing’!

Hello again Image123,

Image123:

Sorry for my absence. Pls, i hope not to be seen as stubborn.

Well, I don't count you as being stubborn. We are here to learn, and learn we shall.

You will have to forgive the lengthy reply. I'm not trying to rebut you, my brother - rather, since we are all here to learn, please let me share with you the things that I'm persuaded about as regards these matters.

Image123:

Ezekiel 33v11-16 is God's Word,not our thoughts.
13. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall SURELY live, if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousness shall NOT be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
i believe that God has not changed.

Indeed, He has not changed - especially as regards His declaration in Ezekiel 33:11-16. That passage is consistent with His dispensation according to Law.

Let me explain:

We have to ask: is that Scripture (Ezekiel 33:11-16) warning us about losing 'salvation' or losing 'reward(s)'?

We shall try to answer that question by proposing yet another in context, viz -

          if that passage presents an idea of 'salvation',
          is it based on grace or on works?

We are sure that Ezekiel 33 is consistent with a righteousness under the dispensation of the old covenant - it was a righteousness based upon 'works' and not of 'grace'. Check this out:

[1].   Under the dispensation of Law, 'righteousness' was based on "what a man did" - and even the same prophet Ezekiel recognized this fact, as did other prophets and apostle(s). See ~~

Ezekiel 20:11, KJV:
And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

Romans 10:5, KJV:
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Deuteronomy 6:25, KJV:
And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

[2].   However, man's own righteousness (which is based on Law, and hence a 'righteousness of works') does not save or justify anybody in either of the OT or NT. Let's review some:

Isaiah 64:6, KJV:
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Isaiah 57:12, KJV:
I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.

Galatians 3:10-12, KJV:
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

[3].  Yet, the passage you cited (Ezekiel 33:11-16) presents us with a righteousness that was based on "what a man did". Look again at Ezek. 33:13 that you quoted:

      'When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall SURELY live;
      if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity,
      all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered;
      but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it'

Bro, what you did not see there is the bold line: 'if he trust to his own righteousness'!!  We have seen that a 'righteousness' which is based on "what a man did" (as in [1] above) does not profit anybody (as in [2]) above, citing Isaiah 64:6 and 57:12). I could as well say that any man who is trusting in his own righteousness is basing his salvation on his own works, and not seeking salvation by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

^^^
@Image123,
The good news is that the Christian's righteousness is not based on the position of Ezekiel 33:13 where someone is trusting to "his own righteousness". Indeed, the apostle Paul says that he would not trust in his own righteousness (Phil. 3:9- 'not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law'). Instead, the Christian's righteousness is based on faith in the work of God Himself - and this is what the same prophet Ezekiel declares (Ezek. 36:21-32), as do other prophets and apostles in both the OT and NT. Let's see a few:

Romans 3:21 & 28, KJV:

²¹But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; . . . Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ephesians 2:8-9, KJV:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9, KJV:
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Titus 3:4-7, KJV:
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Everywhere you turn, dear brother, you need to ask a basic question: on what basis is a man resting his salvation? If it be of 'works' (any work at all which a man does), then it is not according to 'grace'; but and if it be on the basis of GRACE, then it could not be based on any man's 'work' at all (Romans 11:6). It is in this regard you have to consider carefully what Ezekiel 33 is saying, especially where the key is in verse 13 and shows a man who is trusting to "his own righteousness", whereas Isaiah declares that all our righteousnesses are filthy rags before God (Isa. 64:6).

Our salvation in Christ is of 'grace' and not of 'works', and that distinction is so important in all things considered on this subject.

Image123:

@viaro & toluxa1
I was quoting Acts 16v31 where someone asked Paul and Silas "What must I do to be saved". The answer given was that simple. Jesus said in John 3 he that believes is not condemned, he that does not believe is condemned already. Another place, Jesus says he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Salvation can get that simple. I realise the need for growth and teaching and continuing in doctrine but this are not steps to salvation, less it become not of faith but of works.
Knowing the inside-out of how to get saved doesn't necessarily translate to salvation. One may know doctrine, and regeneration, and remission, and size and color of the paschal lamb and not be saved. One can have a healthy heart without knowledge of ventricles and auricles AND vice versa. Doctrine doesn't save us, it's faith that saves.

In this, you have spoken so well, thank you. Good to note the bolded line.

Image123:

@viaro
Sorry I wasn't explicit when I said that if you can lose your life savings, then you can lose your salvation. My thinking in saying that, is that salvation is most precious than life savings. And if what many count as precious(life savings), and are careful about can be lost, then beware, salvation which we're often more negligent about and often commit into other(God, denomination, leaders and shepherd) hands, can be lost.

The clarification is well appreciated.

However, it still amounts to the same thing I tried to point out in post #89 in previous page. The basic question (and it is enormously important) is whether salvation is by grace or by works.

There are many things in life that are precious to people. For some, their marriages are far more precious to them than their life savings; for others, it could be something else ( ____ fill the gap with whatever it may be) and they are far more precious than life savings. In all of these examples, we would be looking at what people work for: thus, that is why it is their 'life savings'.

Yet, salvation is not like that at all - for it is entirely God's work. It may be precious to us (and indeed it is, and ought to always be); but from start to finish it is all a matter of God's work in the life of a believer.

This is why it is difficult to find any warning about losing 'salvation'; but we find a plethora of warnings about losing 'rewards'.

Image123:

Jude in warning us talks of a loss of salvation
V 19. If any OF YOU do ERR FROM the truth, and one convert him.  Verse 20. LET HIM KNOW, that he which converts the SINNER from the error of his way shall save a soul from DEATH, and hide a multitude of sins.
MORAL LESSON:The backslider is a sinner in death who needs a 're-saving'. This is not talking about works or rewards.
Blessings

The reference should be James 5:19-20 (and not Jude 19-20).

Yet I disagree with your summations on that passage, for James does not warn anyone about 'a loss of salvation' at all. If he did, he would also be telling us about a 're-saving', which does not appear at all in his epistle anywhere. This was why a few of us have desired that we seek to understand the meaning and import of the 'salvation' which we have in the new birth, so we could then begin to appreciate the work of the Holy Spirit in the new covenant.

Now, let's make a few observations on James 5:19-20.

1.   It is possible for a Christian to 'err', for James himself warns: 'Do not err, my beloved brethren' (Jam. 1:16); and there are many ways in which we may err -

either through:
(a)  not knowing the Scriptures (Matt. 22:29), or:
(b)  craving the love of money (1 Tim. 6:10), or:
(c)  tolerating heresies among Christians (1 Cor. 11:19);
(d)  profane and vain babblings or false knowledge
      (1 Tim. 6:20-21)

2.   In any of these and more ways that a Christian may 'err', he may find himself in 'the error of his way' which may or may not lead to "death". We know that sin in the life of a believer may lead to 'death' but not the 'losing of salvation'. This is especially clear from 1 Cor. 5:5 where a brother was delivered unto Satan 'for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.'

3.^^^ Further to (2) above, we know there is a sin unto death; and a sin that is not unto death (1 John 5:16). In just the same way, James 5 does not speak about a sin unto death but rather a sin that is NOT unto death - which is why he speaks of trying to 'save a soul from death' (v. 20).

4.   Yet, it is clear that when when James addresses Christians as "ye sinners" in Jam. 4:8, he did not consider them as having lost their "salvation". He says, 'Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded'. Reading from verse 1 shows why he addresses erring Christians in such a manner; and as if that was not enough, he calls them 'Ye adulterers and adulteresses' in verse 4. In all of these, he does not suppose that these Christians had lost their salvation; or he would have made recommendations to them on how they could be 're-saved' which he does NOT!

There certainly are more points about this to discuss; but the basic point in all these is that James refers to erring Christians as "sinners" without considering them to have lost their salvation. He had earlier acknowledged the new birth (James 1:18); but he goes on to remonstrate with erring believers as regards their careless living.

The difference between an erring Christian and an unregenerate believer is given in Hebrews 12:6-8 >>

[list]For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof ALL are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.[/list]

The erring Christian receives chastening as a 'son'; but it is a sure sign that one is not a 'son' if he does not receive chastening while living a sinful life, though such a person may be a professing 'Christian'.

Viaro,
Thanks a lot for your rejoinders and for the patience you exhibited in the course of posting them. I am 100% in agreement.

hmmm, it's my turn se?
5solas
The salvation of any man depends on many factors but primarily on God and on him/her. We've got our part to play. We can't just take away from the words of the book.rev22v19). That scripture itself tells us that a believer can lose his salvation. The holy city for God's sake is salvation. Where are you going to if you're out of the holy city? Is that just a reward. Philippians says work out your own salvation. If we cut that out and only hold 'it is God that works', then we're in danger. I'm with the hope that we're learning and not just trying to have the last word.
The backslider can be lost while still alive. Jesus spake of Judas as lost. The prodigal Son was lost. You've heard the parable of the lost sheep. Lost sheep can still repent/'re-saving' like we see the prodigal Son was re-saved

viaro,
Ezekiel33 is not presenting an idea of salvation. The righteous in passage is already saved/righteous before God. My point is can a believer lose salvation and my answer is Yes. Whether he got salvation by faith or works, before Jesus or after Jesus is not the crux. Can he lose it after been found righteous/not wicked before God?
Context is vital in this because when God makes us righteous, it still becomes 'our righteousness'(compare 2Corinthians9v10 and Matthew 5v20). Infact we are made the righteousness of God. What Ezekiel is saying in other words is that the righteous shouldn't think that his evil will go unpunished, he shouldn't rest on past records. It's the context. I'll comment on other issues later

5solas:

Viaro,
Thanks a lot for your rejoinders and for the patience you exhibited in the course of posting them. I am 100% in agreement.

Great to read. I'm also open to corrections where need be.

Dear Image123,

Let me answer to both yours posts (#108 and #109) above. They contain issues which are at the core of our concerns regarding the 'salvation' of which we speak.

Image123:
5solas
The salvation of any man depends on many factors but primarily on God and on him/her. We've got our part to play.

Indeed, we've got a part to play (although many theologians disagree).

We have to be careful about what exactly we mean by "our part" in being saved - it does not mean that we did anything in order to be saved. Scripture is consistent in bearing witness that salvation is -

~  "not of yourselves" (Eph. 2:
~  "not of works" (Eph. 2:9)
~  "not according to our works" (2 Timothy 1:9)
~  "Not by works of righteousness  which we have done" (Titus 3:5)

Salvation is not of ourselves or what we have done at all - rather, it is all of God, and that much we are agreed.

However, in saying that we've got a part to play, let me echo what has been sounded by others: it is a matter of "God's sovereignty and man's responsibility." Man obtains salvation from God by his/her response to God's offer of saving grace (Rom. 10:8-10).

^^^

Image123:

We can't just take away from the words of the book.rev22v19). That scripture itself tells us that a believer can lose his salvation. The holy city for God's sake is salvation.

No, the holy city is not salvation; and Revelation 22:19 does not tell us that a believer can lose his or her salvation. If anything at all, it tells us that it is possible for a man to lose his rewards, and not his 'salvation' - God shall take away 'his part'.

Salvation involves many things, among which is the redemption, the new birth, and justification. In addition, our souls are quickened - ie., made alive (Eph. 2:1 & 5; Col. 2:13). The 'new birth', for example, is not said to be 'lost' when someone has become saved or regenerated - otherwise, that would be saying that the born again believer became 'dead in sins' after he/she was saved! Is there any verse in Scripture that shows that the new birth was lost after someone became born again?

As regards 'the city' in Rev. 22, verse 14 tells us that the right to enter in through the gates is obtained by doing God's commandments. If therefore you equate salvation to the 'city', you're presenting a salvation by works - a salvation according to "what we do", and we know that is not salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ.

Now, have you ever considered the fact that someone who does not actually belong among the saints could be found even among them? This is what the Lord teaches us in Matthew 22:11-14 >>

[list]'And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.[/list]

So, many are called - but 'called' to what? Matthew 22 tells us they are 'called' to a wedding feast, in the same way that Revelation 19:9 declares 'Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb'. And in the latter texts (Rev. 19), we find that the 'wife' of the Lamb is given fine line to wear, making clear that 'the fine linen is the righteousness of saints' (verse .

But in this context, who is the 'wife' of the Lamb in Revelation 19 and 22? Surprise, surprise - 'she' is the 'holy city', the new (or 'holy') Jerusalem (Rev. 19:7-8; Rev. 21:9-10; see Heb. 12:22).

Go back to Matthew 22 and ask: what disqualified the 'guest' in that wedding? Simply this: he was found at the wedding without a wedding garment. The King had invited all to the feast, "both bad and good", and the wedding was furnished with guests (v. 10). This particular guest did not 'lose salvation' - he simply did not have a wedding garment.

So, it is possible for a man to be found among God's people but not be qualified to be among them. So it is with the 'city' - you cannot equate that to 'salvation', and one has to be careful about drawing conclusions at face value on any verse.

^^^

Image123:

Where are you going to if you're out of the holy city? Is that just a reward. Philippians says work out your own salvation. If we cut that out and only hold 'it is God that works', then we're in danger. I'm with the hope that we're learning and not just trying to have the last word.

There is nothing we can do to obtain salvation - that much we know and agree on. To mix up any idea as if we are working for our salvation is to confuse the work of God altogether.

The admonition in Phil. 2:12 to 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' does not mean we should try to work out anything in order that we might get saved. The working out of our salvation is the demonstration or proof of our having been saved through faith, as we find in Eph. 2:10 - 'we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'

Image123:

The backslider can be lost while still alive. Jesus spake of Judas as lost. The prodigal Son was lost. You've heard the parable of the lost sheep. Lost sheep can still repent/'re-saving' like we see the prodigal Son was re-saved

There is no 're-saving' in the new covenant. That is the simple point you should try and grasp. If there is a 're-saving', how many times does a saved-and-lost believer have to be redeemed? Perhaps you might want to consider Hebrews 6:4-6 which effectively says that it is impossible for those who fall away to be renewed unto repentance, for that is like crucifying the Lord all over again!

Those who are truly born again do not become unregenerate afterwards. There is no possi9bility shown in Scripture about a 're-saving' or a born again believer. The warnings in Scripture which many have taken to apply to the saved believer for the possibility of losing salvation are actually for those who profess to be born again but are NOT - see 1 John 2:19 ['They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us'].

Now, to address yours to me:

Image123:

viaro,
Ezekiel33 is not presenting an idea of salvation. The righteous in passage is already saved/righteous before God.

I don't understand. If Ezekiel 33 does not present an idea of salvation, why did you use it to argue salvation in the first place?

In fact, Ezekiel 33 does not tell us that the righteous there is already saved - not at all. It tells us more emphatically that the person who is trusting to 'HIS OWN RIGHTEUOSNESS' is not going to find salvation that way. This also is what Isaiah tells us in Isa. 57:12 - 'I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee'. Our righteousness and works are worthless in the sight of God (Isaiah 64:6).

Image123:

My point is can a believer lose salvation and my answer is Yes. Whether he got salvation by faith or works, before Jesus or after Jesus is not the crux. Can he lose it after been found righteous/not wicked before God?

No, and that is because you seem to be taking this subject of salvation without due regard as to what we find in God's Word.

It actually should matter to us that salvation is based on faith and not on works - for that is what Scripture tells us in both the OT and NT. For one, grace cannot be confused for works (Rom. 11:6); and secondly, no man is justified by works in the sight of God, for the just shall live by faith and not by works (Galatians 3:11-12).

For both dispensations of the old and new covenants, salvation for every single person is founded upon Christ and no one else (Rom. 3:27 - 'Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith' . . . read also Romans 5). This salvation in Christ is by faith, and not by what any man has done (Titus 3:5).

Image123:

Context is vital in this because when God makes us righteous, it still becomes 'our righteousness'(compare 2Corinthians9v10 and Matthew 5v20). Infact we are made the righteousness of God. What Ezekiel is saying in other words is that the righteous shouldn't think that his evil will go unpunished, he shouldn't rest on past records. It's the context. I'll comment on other issues later

I agree that context is important.

Certainly,even though in the past God winked at people's ignorance (Acts 17:30), He will not excuse our sins - this is because He has made recommendations for those who believe in Jesus Christ (1 John 1:7-10), just as I said earlier in reference to Hebrews 12.

But in Ezekiel 33, the man who is trusting to 'his own righteousness' will not stand in God's judgement. None of his righteous acts which he had done in the past will be remembered (v. 13). That is not the same thing as believers under the new covenant, of whom God says: 'For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister' (Heb. 6:10). And if the believer in Christ sins, He will mete out discipline to such as proof that such a person is His 'son' (see Hebrews 12 again).

I look forward to your comments.

Image123:

5solas
It's actually possible to 'unkeep' one's self. It's like one has been provided for and protected by a bigger body(government/parent). That person can still suffer himself or harm himself physically despite the security measures in place.
Some say that the dog that will get missing doesn't listen to the hunter's call. Jesus says I am with you always but fact remains that the sheep can stray away of his own will. The master never left, the sheep left.
Jude 21 'gives me some water to hold' by saying "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God." No doubt, God wants to keep and CAN keep, but we've got our little part to play

I am shocked that you would make statements like the above , it clearly shows you don’t understand what it means for salvation to be by grace. If it is possible for believers to [s]unkeep themselves[/s] fall and be lost , what is the whole point of Jesus’ teaching, almost throughout John 10; 6:37 and 17? It is arguments like these that keep men from the truth of the gospel. Rom. 8:28-29 says nothing can separate the believer from the love of God and when it is asserted, someone  objects and says , ‘sin was not mentioned’ ! The bible says the Holy Spirit was given to us to abide with us forever and  as a guarantee  that we will be redeemed at the end of the day, someone objects and says , ‘nevertheless He leaves on the commission of any sin’ ! The bible says the man is the head of the woman, someone objects and says,’the woman is the neck of the man’ !Such arguments amount to trifling with the scriptures. Please don’t just argue, look at the import of the  scriptures we have been bringing to your attention. We are not arguing for a show or to show we are the approved ones but to draw your attention to scriptures you must consider.Salvation is completely of grace, God will not give (or share!)His glory with puny man!

Image123:

viaro,
Ezekiel33 is not presenting an idea of salvation. The righteous in passage is already saved/righteous before God. My point is can a believer lose salvation and my answer is Yes. Whether he got salvation by faith or works, before Jesus or after Jesus is not the crux. Can he lose it after been found righteous/not wicked before God?
Context is vital in this because when God makes us righteous, it still becomes 'our righteousness'(compare 2Corinthians9v10 and Matthew 5v20). Infact we are made the righteousness of God. What Ezekiel is saying in other words is that the righteous shouldn't think that his evil will go unpunished, he shouldn't rest on past records. It's the context. I'll comment on other issues later

Please ask yourself the reason for the death of Christ and what it accomplished. If ‘our righteousness’ (our part) could save us, He would not have needed to come. You do not understand perhaps why Paul persecuted the apostles. If you read Gal.1-2 and Phil.3 in addition to The Acts of the Apostles, you will get a better understanding.
Paul was not the type to lie, steal, kill e.t.c (see Phil.3 and remember, he was a Pharisee!), but when the apostles started teaching that justification was by faith alone and not by obedience to the law (commandment), I am sure you can imagine his anger. He was concerned that by insisting on faith alone, the apostles were making void the law (Rom 3:31) , teaching things that would make people sin against God. That was why he persecuted them! But when he encountered Christ, he understood that the laws (commandments) that he was so zealous of protecting, had been fulfilled in Christ (Rom8:1-4) and nothing was required of him to do than to put his faith (his hope of going to heaven) in Christ.
It was not that he found God, it was that God found him (Gal.4:9, Rom.9:30-33,). It was not when he was seeking God; it was when he was destroying the works of God!
God has chosen those who would be saved before the foundation of the world. (This is the teaching of the election of persons to salvation(Eph.1:3-5)).God did not choose everyone but some (the elects) and the reason for His choice is not for any good foreseen in them (as some ignorantly claim) but out of His good pleasure.
It is not to be wondered at why God does not save all sinners, what should be wondered at is that He saves any.
The righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees is the righteousness of faith and it is that  righteousness Paul desires to be found with and not, his own righteousness!(Phil.3:9.).

Image 123 and Viaro.
I am sorry I have not been able to post before now. I have been having problems with my ISPs.I am not so sure if it was a nightmare now , but I thought we were on page 5 of the thread? Whatever happened? I could read but couldn’t post and I thought Image123 was saying to you (Viaro), ‘I give up! I am tired of trying to get through to you!’(my paraphrase of course!).Viaro was saying,’ but we have only just begun!’. Whatever the case, I still want comments from you guys from other fronts. Let’s leave Judas for now, what about Ananias and Sapphira? Leaving works for now, how about the foreknowledge of God?

May the LORD bless the reading of His word and grant us grace to understand more and more each day. I guess everything I could have said, I have either said or has been said on this topic. @5solars &viaro, thanks for your comments.

@all. There was a hardware problem on Nairaland servers some days ago and that caused many posts to be lost. Its a pity I couldn't read them.

Toluxa1 .
Amen , Amen. Thanks a lot for your explaination about the problem.  I was truly perplexed.
For a moment I actually forgot you. I should have realised that, the fact you were not contributing at a time, did not mean you were not reading. I apologise. You did well to goad Viaro. His posts were really to the point and  I gained a lot from them.

Lol, my apologies brethren - I didn't quite notice this as I was in and out of the forum the last few hours while on another thread (Abraham Genesis 14).

A pity the last few posts were lost (but I should commend the guys behind Nairaland for their hardwork all the same - God bless them). We shall take time to consider all points argued for or against the security of our salvation.

@toluxa1, good to read from you, and thanks for your comments.

@5solas, you asked a very important question on Ananias and Sapphira. I would have loved to discuss them; but time constraints for now won't let me go into detail. Basically, I tend to think that if they were saved, the fact that they died physically on their error does not mean they had lost their salvation. This seems so to me, at least for the same reason that one might observe that even though Moses had not entered the promised land and died outside of it, he nevertheless did not lose his salvation. Maybe more later.

viaro:

Lol, my apologies brethren - I didn't quite notice this as I was in and out of the forum the last few hours while on another thread (Abraham Genesis 14).

A pity the last few posts were lost (but I should commend the guys behind Nairaland for their hardwork all the same - God bless them). We shall take time to consider all points argued for or against the security of our salvation.

@toluxa1, good to read from you, and thanks for your comments.

@5solas, you asked a very important question on Ananias and Sapphira. I would have loved to discuss them; but time constraints for now won't let me go into detail. Basically, I tend to think that if they were saved, the fact that they died physically on their error does not mean they had lost their salvation. This seems so to me, at least for the same reason that one might observe that even though Moses had not entered the promised land and died outside of it, he nevertheless did not lose his salvation. Maybe more later.

I am impressed by your answer.[/b]If they were saved[b]. We should be cautious and use ’IF’ even though it is very probable they were saved. I agree with you that if they were saved, they did not lose their salvation(1Cor.11:30).
Indeed we should take out time to look at both sides of the arguments.

u can only lose what you once had. some people who u see departing from the faith proves one thing that they were never of the faith. he that is born of God cannot sin.
1 John 2:19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Bump

yes a believer can lose his salvation >>> read the multiple deconversion stories on Mr Dawkins site and you get the picture

WHOSOEVER THE SON OF MAN SETS FREE IS FREE INDEED.

HOW CAN I LOST MY SALVATION.

WHY AM I THEN A SAINT.

ARE SAINTS NOT SINNERS?

FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.

FOR OUT OF SIN I WAS CAME INTO THE WORLD.

@5Solas


Will a person after been saved, but went back into sin, lets say into armed robbery but died in the sin be saved? If your answer is no, it means one can lose his/her salvation; if you say yes, it means you may not have considered the scripture that says nothing unclean shall enter. In conclusion, one can lose his/her salvation, if he draws back from following the Lord.

dexmond:

@5Solas


Will a person after been saved, but went back into sin, lets say into armed robbery but died in the sin be saved? If your answer is no, it means one can lose his/her salvation; if you say yes, it means you may not have considered the scripture that says nothing unclean shall enter. In conclusion, one can lose his/her salvation, if he draws back from following the Lord.

Appealing to sentiments rather than The Word, would do us no good, Dexmond. I suggest you go through the posts before joining the 'fray'. More on your post later.

By the way, your post, 'How They Became Christians!', was awesome.