SQred:


You obviously don't have an answer to my question so I'll wait for someone who does.

It's quite ironic that people like you criticize theists for being evasive but you are doing the same thing.

SQred:
Hi Atheists on NL. I'm curious to know the basis upon which you use in differentiating between right and wrong since you don't believe in the existence of a transcendent moral authority that prescribes moral principles that are codified in the literature of the said religion.

SQred:


How do you differentiate between what's wrong and what's right? How do you define right and wrong? How do you determine what's morally wrong and what's morally right? Please answer my question.

frank317:


How do u differentiate what is right or wrong?

When someone slaps you do u run to God (your moral source) to know if it pains u or not? Is it the same God that will still tell you that when u slap another person it wull pain him?

PastorAIO:
U

I believe that what you're referring to here is Empathy. The natural human ability to feel what others are feeling. Even babies.

If you spank one baby in the presence of another they will both cry. The one that wasn't flanked may even cry more sef.

frank317:


exactly... I will need the op to tell me if it is his God that tells the other baby to cry

PastorAIO:
U

I believe that what you're referring to here is Empathy. The natural human ability to feel what others are feeling. Even babies.

If you spank one baby in the presence of another they will both cry. The one that wasn't spanked may even cry more sef.

vaxx:
Are you suggesting babies are born with moral code?

PastorAIO:


Humans are born with a moral instinct. (I make a difference between morality and empathy, by the way, just so you know).

The exact moral code that is then articulated would depend on many other factors.

vaxx:
Moral instinct.... elucidate

PastorAIO:


The Moral instinct manifests as tendency to place Things and events and actions somewhere along a scale of values whereby The most preferred things are place at the top and are called Good or Ideal while the least valued things are placed at the bottom and are called bad or evil.


For example, Rape is an action. For some people it can be placed at the very bottom of the scale of values whereby it is the least desirable thing to do or to witness. On the other hand some other people can place it higher on the scale and even boast about how many women they would rape. They see it as a high value activity. For instinct when the Germans lost the WWII and the Russians approached Berlin, they went on a raping spree. They felt quite justified in doing so after all the things that the Nazis had done to them.

In both these cases there is a Moral Instinct, a ladder of values. However the difference between them is that they place the same events on different positions on the scale. Absolutely every human being is Moral, ie has the moral instinct. The only difference is that they arrange things on the ladder differently.

vaxx:
you do not answer my question? the bone of discussion is if baby are really born with moral instinct?.. am not asking you how moral instinct manifest....

Baby are born blank, meaning without knowledge or experience.... so how can a baby manifest an instinct he or she lack knowledge about? if you agree that baby can put good and evil on a scale of preferences, then you are suggesting that baby can rationalize. which will also mean they are aware of their physical environment.

this is not true. we are like animals, we are born naturally with survival and self-interest instinct only. that is why baby are naturally sell-fish but as we survive via the evolutionary process, our greater capacity for rational thought developed and It is by way of rational thought that we learn the concept of morality base on the society we find ourselves.....the same morality here birth culture and norms... what we accept objectively as way of life becomes our value. in Rome, it is believed that the left hand is the right place to put on engagement ring because it is close to the heart while in Germany, engagement rings are place on right hand.... so by what dalaman say morality is derived from the society in which individual find themselves . developmental psychology says that our moral occur overtime, meaning we have to learn it and not born with it...

if there is anything baby are born with, i will argue and say it is xenophobic... fear of out groups as out group are generally competitors for scarce resources..

read this book, the secret lives of the brain by David Eagleman

budaatum:

Read 3 times. Tried hard to disagree. Failed miserably. Well done!

vaxx:
you do not answer my question? the bone of discussion is if baby are really born with moral instinct?.. am not asking you how moral instinct manifest....

]

PastorAIO:


Humans are born with a moral instinct. (I make a difference between morality and empathy, by the way, just so you know).

.

vaxx:
Baby are born blank, meaning without knowledge or experience.... so how can a baby manifest an instinct he or she lack knowledge about? if you agree that baby can put good and evil on a scale of preferences, then you are suggesting that baby can rationalize. which will also mean they are aware of their physical environment.

GideonG:
Wisdom is the answer, Your conscience directs you at reflex action. You might still not understand but you need more KNOWLEDGE. Believe your knowledge is limited so desire to know more!

vaxx:

Baby are born blank, meaning without knowledge or experience.... so how can a baby manifest an instinct he or she lack knowledge about? if you agree that baby can put good and evil on a scale of preferences, then you are suggesting that baby can rationalize. which will also mean they are aware of their physical environment.

Research indicates that even before birth, mothers' moods may affect child development," comments Dr. Catherine Monk, a researcher at Columbia University. In summarizing Monk's work, Anne Murphy Paul in her recent cover story for Time magazine writes, "that a pregnant women's mental state can shape her offspring's psyche." These observations and those of others investigating fetal origins, the study of how the nine months of gestation influences physical, mental, intellectual, and emotional functioning, mirror empirical observations long noted by mental health providers.

I write about such observations in my recent book, The Favorite Child. One couple, Carla and Tom, had worked with me to explore their feeling about having children. They did have children and about twenty years later contacted me because of concern for their older daughter Peggy: for the prior several summers, on the eve of leaving home to study abroad or for internships in remote cities, she became so anxious that she could not carry out her plans. Her jealousy for her younger sister, who did study in Europe and had summer jobs in exotic settings, created family tension.

In the family sessions that ensued, Carla and Tom reminisced about their excitement when pregnant with Peggy. Tom, insisting on being an active participant in the pregnancy, decided that he wanted the fetus to be as familiar with his heartbeat as it was with his wife's. Thus, he placed his heart on his wife's stomach each night before going to sleep and each morning before getting out of bed. In that position he declared his love for the fetus and his wife, always ending with the words, "Little One...we will always be one, a united family."

In the seventh month of pregnancy, Tom left on a two-week business trip. While he was gone, the fetus kicked endlessly, creating distress for Carla. She endured sleepless nights and struggle through the days, tired and uncomfortable. When Tom returned home and resumed the ritual of placing his heart on Carla's stomach and whispering his loving words, the fetus immediately calmed down.

vaxx:

Baby are born blank, meaning without knowledge or experience.... so how can a baby manifest an instinct he or she lack knowledge about? if you agree that baby can put good and evil on a scale of preferences, then you are suggesting that baby can rationalize. which will also mean they are aware of their physical environment.


if there is anything baby are born with, i will argue and say it is xenophobic... fear of out groups as out group are generally competitors for scarce resources..

budaatum:

I was taught by my parents, to start with, to say please and thank you, not to pick my nose in public and to respect others. I know it hurts if you slapped me so I reckon it would hurt you if I slapped you so I don't go about slapping people, or killing them, for that matter. If I came home and found you screwing my partner, I don't think I'd want you coming to my house anymore. I'd feel the same if you ate my dinner or stole my shoes, and I think you'd feel the same if you came home and found me eating your partner or screwing your dinner or stealing your shoes, and besides, I kind of like you as a fellow human being, so I wouldn't do things to you or my dog, for that matter, that I would not like to be done to me. I know that you have feelings just as I do and what would hurt me might hurt you too so why be a prick towards you when I wouldn't willingly prick myself?

If I was a prick all the time, no one would like me and I'd have no friends, and I like having friends and I like sleeping at night safe in my bed, so why be a prick and have to stay up all night making sure I am protected from the consequences of my prickiness? Did I like myself when in the past, I took what belonged to another without their permission? And even though they did not know I took it, did I not know, and did I not hide myself away in shame knowing full well what I had done? Was the fact that I lost a valuable friend worth it in the end, and have I not learnt from the experience? Has atheism made me so stupid that I would think I now get to do whatever I wanted without considering the consequences of my prickiness? And more importantly, do I not mind or care about the consequences at all?

Experience, and knowledge gained from it and the society one belongs to, my friend, teaches one what is good and what is evil. Life itself would soon set me straight when my prickiness turns me into budanomates!

PastorAIO:


Compare the Red and the Purple, and tell me, are theses two statements not contradictory. It is either that babies are born with predispositions or they are not. What is it?

You don't need a posteriori knowledge to exercise your moral instinct
In fact the sheer fact that it is an instinct means that there isn't really a thought process behind it at it's most basic level.




yes, babies are aware of their environment from within the womb. This is aptly demonstrated in the article I quoted above.

PastorAIO:


Even my own anecdotal experience tells me that this is rubbish. When a new born baby comes back home from hospital, straight away you can tell it's unique personality. Some babies are quieter. Some make more noise and babble alot, others cry more, some laugh alot etc etc etc

The personality and the mind has begun to be establish from before birth. But in case you don't believe me you can look at clinical evidence by doctors and scientists.




https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-favorite-child/201010/personality-begins-birth

Many of the things that a pregnant mother feels, the baby also feels too. They share many hormones etc. If the mother does drugs the mental development of the child might be impaired. If the mother is surrounded by music which the baby can hear in the womb, the baby is more likely to be born with an ear for music.

PastorAIO:


Even my own anecdotal experience tells me that this is rubbish. When a new born baby comes back home from hospital, straight away you can tell it's unique personality. Some babies are quieter. Some make more noise and babble alot, others cry more, some laugh alot etc etc etc

The personality and the mind has begun to be establish from before birth. But in case you don't believe me you can look at clinical evidence by doctors and scientists.




https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-favorite-child/201010/personality-begins-birth

Many of the things that a pregnant mother feels, the baby also feels too. They share many hormones etc. If the mother does drugs the mental development of the child might be impaired. If the mother is surrounded by music which the baby can hear in the womb, the baby is more likely to be born with an ear for music.

vaxx:
you have given me about four mentions.....but i will only reply to this since i assume is the most relevant....

DO not confuse hormones or genetic transfer to knowledge.....knowledge is what we learn over time base on experience and practice.... so tell me how a toddler is knowledgeable? the idea to rationalize wrong and right is given by the society and not from the womb....

An extrovert parent may possibly give birth to extrovert child and vice versa . this is a biological factor and has nothing to do with knowledge. unless you are suggesting that a doctor can give birth to already made doctor? the only skills all baby can do is to cry, grasp and suck... every other thing is learn....depending on the genes transfer to the baby by his parent will determine how fast or quick the baby will assimilate .therefore personality function and cognitive are already decided by our generic heritage and biological factor.

''The brain itself has blank-slate-like properties (5). This phenomenon was studied most extensively for cortical cells that initially do not know what they are supposed to do but develop a rapport with neighboring cells, responding most strongly to those that stimulate them the most. This means that if a person were to lose a finger, the parts of the cortex that had represented that finger will likely start responding to input from another finger'' by David eagle an authority on biological science

i will advice to read on from here.....

5 Kalisman, N., Silberberg, G., and Markram, H. (2005). The neocortical microcircuit as a tabula rasa. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 102, 880-885.

morality itself pass through evolutionary stage, the spread of human race all over the continent also shape what we term morality today, how those it begin ?..... survival was the major factor ... the strive for little resources (crop) birth writing system so that we can keep track of them , keeping our selfish desire in control birth army ,lastly the administration of the crops birth politics... this how society was form so that humanity can survive....

danvon:
Wow impressive morality was created for survival of humanity,
Then I guess things like men raping women is surely a good thing since it helps produce more babies and continue human survival.
I love atheism

vaxx:
you have given me about four mentions.....but i will only reply to this since i assume is the most relevant....

DO not confuse hormones or genetic transfer to knowledge.....knowledge is what we learn over time base on experience and practice.... so tell me how a toddler is knowledgeable? the idea to rationalize wrong and right is given by the society and not from the womb....

vaxx:
i am not an atheist....do you read my post......morality passes through evolutionary stages'' there use to be time when what you consider evil today were dully right....

vaxx:

An extrovert parent may possibly give birth to extrovert child and vice versa . this is a biological factor and has nothing to do with knowledge. unless you are suggesting that a doctor can give birth to already made doctor? the only skills all baby can do is to cry, grasp and suck... every other thing is learn....depending on the genes transfer to the baby by his parent will determine how fast or quick the baby will assimilate .therefore personality function and cognitive are already decided by our generic heritage and biological factor.

danvon:
Morality is religion different religions different morality. E.g in Calabar traditionalist killing twins Good not killing twins bad When Christianity dominated the people killing twins bad not killing twins good there's no stages involved it's simply a change of dominant religion

PastorAIO:


Cha! so much straw!!

I didn't say anything about inherited traits like extroversion. I was talking about morality which I defined as a scale of preferences.

Being a Doctor is a totally different kind of knowledge from being a moral person. This your Doctor example na real wa!

"all a baby can do its 'cry, grasp and suck". The baby also smiles when it is delighted. It sleeps when it is soothed with music, it blinks when lights are too bright and many many other things. These are reactions to it's environment that are instinctual, nobody teaches you to blink at bright lights, or sneeze with your nose is irritated.

There are all actions done with the intention to improve the state of affairs. So bright lights are lower in the preference scale so the baby blinks to keep out the light. This improves things.
An itchy nose is unpleasant, low down in the value scale. Sneezing raises the state of affairs to a situation higher up the value scale.

Do you get that? A baby values a full stomach higher than an empty stomach. It values the presence of it's mother over the absence of his mother. etc. Distinctions are made between every experience by sticking them somewhere on the value scale.

vaxx:
thank you sir.....i will only give you one example out of numerous example. in the old testament... the bases of morality falls on 10 commandment but in the new testament it was change and Jesus declare that love superseded law . even in the bible morality experience evolution