To your first paragraph. Do you know a figure of speech called metaphor

OboOlora:
Okay so you deliver the baby and hand the baby over to him to start breastfeeding abi? U people just type rubbish on the internet without having a deep thought of the consequences.

I don’t support abortion but the man that insisted on having sex without condom is definitely gonna be a useless father. Do you want to raise a bastard child for a useless father?

Weigh your options please. Use a condom and if you can’t, face the consequences!

STOP ABORTION!!!

rheether:
So you think you are making sense?

i want to fork you

Zuluhead:
Quite interesting but some clarification are needed, lets think outside religion cause some religion support it. Where does the crime/murder/sin starts from?
If abortion is a crime then releasing outside the Virginia is also a crime?
Also with family planning?
I have mingled and associated with people from different religion and we have deep conversations irrespective of religion.
It boils down to faith believe and national constitutions.
Morally produce what you can cater for.

the bolded is not a valid logical equivalence. Releasing outside the Vagina only destroys sperm cells and not a fertilized egg.

Releasing outside the Vagina would be under preventive contraception, just like use of condoms etc. Note that some religions (Catholic) are against even preventive contraception but do not consider it as grave as abortion which they simply term murder of an innocent.

Newboss:
You are absolutely ignorant if you don't know that it's mostly ladies that opt for abortion!

well it's their lives that are most impacted by the child. Guys are minimally impacted. Ladies have to make a choice between their convenience and that of the child.

unfortunately as always selfishness wins. so they chose their own interest ahead of the child.

Kholiwe:
"If God hates abortion, why does He allow miscarriages?" Isn't life sacred to him......religious fanatics

here's your analogy:

if God hates murders, why does He allow people die naturally? Isnt Life sacred to him.

Kholiwe:


Abortion is Not Murder Abortion is definitely a form of killing, but it is not murder. Not every form of killing qualifies as murder (for instance, soldiers killed in combat are not considered to have been murdered). An aborted fetus could not live on its own outside the uterus; it therefore has not every been fully alive and cannot be murdered ,

The bolded is not a question of being alive but a question of viability

an embryo is definitely alive. It is also definitely human (46 chromosomes) but it is not viable as it cannot survive on its own. Normally 22 weeks is agreed for viability as that is the earliest stage a prematurely born foetus can survive. However, note that viability changes with technology, decreasing as we become more advance in technology. A second mute point is if a new born is truly viable. Can a new born survive on its own without a mother (or at least another human)?

I find it tough to argue in favor of abortion using the notion of viability. Allowing abortion for non-viable stages of the foetus views the foetus as a parasite to be terminated. it also discards the concept of individual pain for common good of the species which is natural to mammals.

shadeyinka:


I am sure you haven't heard of "Iron Lungs" before!

I have never heard of "iron lungs", please give me a hint of what it entails and how it relates to the subject at hand.

You seem not to be able to defend or oppose a view intelligently. Not a single proof, not a single definition, nothing ! Except that you feel and believe that abortion is not murder.

I will rub it in again. Abortion is MURDER! State your points.

Apart from religious sentiments, no body can equate abortion to murder.
Murder is the unprovoked and intentional killing of another person , a foetus does not become a legal person until after birth.

You kill a foetus 1 hour before birth - abortion; you kill the same foetus 1 hour after birth - murder.

As I said earlier no court in this world can charge someone who commits abortion for murder.

You insinuate that I am using religious sentiments: unfortunately, I have not even used the word Bible, Quran, God, Jesus, Mohammed, Sin etc.

It is only religious sentiments that makes others exhibit so much venom and hatred for other people's behaviours that has no bearing whatsoever on their life, ie abortion, homosexualism, mode of dressing, etc.

I have only opposed abortion from the following views
1. Scientifically: Characteristics of Living Beings
2. Legal: Fundermental human Rights
3. Definition of Murder
4. Logics: through analogies, scenarios and examples

Well your views are wrong and religiously tinted.
1. Scientifically a zygote or embryo is a living thing like all other living things. The man releases and "kill" millions of living things (sperms) and the woman also wastes hundreds of living things (ova), no big deal.

2. Legal rights of what? Just as your blood cells, your sperm cells has no legal rights, a zygote and an embryo has no legal rights.
What happens if I harvest my own sperm, obtain hundreds of eggs, mix them in a test tube to fertilize and then destroy the resulting zygotes two days later, will you charge me for multiple homicide? This same attitude of religious fundamentalists is what has slowed down stem cell research, which has the potential to help cure many illnesses.

3. I have explained what murder entails, it needs to involve a legal person. A fetus is not a person.

You want to make yourself look civil and humane while like an ostrich wishing away the fact that you support murder. Tell me on what excuse?

Civility and humanity is the exact reason I am a strong advocate of abortion. I have seen a new born floating on the Lagos lagoon. That memory traumatised me till today. My wife had seen a new born dumped alive in a refuse bin covered with ants. Luckily the baby survived. I strongly believe a woman who does not want to have and care for a baby should never be forced to have a baby as punishment for her sexual sins.

It is you religionists that play the ostrich and in the process cause a lot of harm to the society.
Catholic bans the use of condom and contraceptives, you have increase in HIV/AIDS and unwanted children as consequence.

You ban aspiring priest from marrying and having healthy sex, you breed child molesters and homosexuals as priests.

You ban and criminalise abortion, you create so many related problems, like over population, high rate of unwanted children roaming the streets becoming recruits for terrorists and armed robbers, high death rate from abortion related complications from people going underground to procure abortion from quacks . Too many problems problems to mention.

If you want to have unprotected sex, why not use one of the several pregnancy preventive methods? What does a man who jumps out of a moving plane expect: angels to come out and carry him? What do you expect from unprotected sex?

Prevention is better than cure they say!

If you want to have sex and not have babies, use contraception. Why must a man/woman in the making pay for my own recklessness? You think it makes sense?

This is the only quote I agree 100% with you. People should be educated on how to prevent unwanted pregnancies apart from STDs, teenagers should be taught both at home and at school the dangers of unprotected sex. In addition, provisions should be made for women who "mistakenly" become pregnant and do not want the baby. A law and facilities should be provided for pregnancy to be aborted early if the woman truly does not want the baby, probably within the first trimester.

Believe me abortion is not Nigeria's problem, it's over population. The birth rate in nigeria is one of the highest in the world, it is higher that the birth rate of all European countries added together. Nigeria is presently finding it difficult to cater for 200 million people with our limited resources.

maryannasemota:


Funny. A feotus is life. Its living. Its murder when you take a life.

I beg to differ. Is killing another solder in battle called a murder.

shadeyinka:

Suppose a grown man was given oxygen gas because he couldn't breath on his own and his enemy came and disconnected the oxygen hose from him. Would that not qualify as Murder in any law court?

Abortionists are enemies of the foetus who selfish reasons decided that a foetus MUST not live.
Murder is when an enemy decided that a person must not continue to live for their own selfish gain.

In war, the only moral ground for killing is self defence. That is, I don't shoot first, the enemy will shoot to kill me.

But in the case of 99% of abortions, what has the baby foetus done? Nothing! Someone just decides that the foetus life should end because "she is not yet ready to be a mother, etc". It is murder.

All murders have a motive and certainly, abortion does!

Abortion is murder!

Murder is intentionally truncating another life for selfish reasons
Abortionis intentionally truncating another life for selfish reasons

Abortion does not equate to killing a living breathing existing
human being. Abortion is scientifically a medical procedure in
which a mother terminates a fetus. To equate abortion to
murder would be absolutely insane. So a man has a choice
between killing a woman or a fetus, both are equivalently evil
and murder? The woman has a life, dreams, family, history,
possibly a job. The fetus has nothing but what it is given.

I believe it is not murder, as the fetus is not a human being until it reaches its birth. As abortion is done before the birth of the child, it is not killing of a human being, but rather, the removal of something that would have eventually become one. My overall stance on the issue is to let the mother choose to get an abortion. Plain and simple.

Kholiwe:

Abortion does not equate to killing a living breathing existing
human being. Abortion is scientifically a medical procedure in
which a mother terminates a fetus. To equate abortion to
murder would be absolutely insane. So a man has a choice
between killing a woman or a fetus, both are equivalently evil
and murder? The woman has a life, dreams, family, history,
possibly a job. The fetus has nothing but what it is given.

you just wrote "Terminate?".
And I hope you know the meaning of terminate,so why are you stressing this.
You are simply overwelmed with guilt,it not as if you are trying to make a moral or academical point.

IjeleNwa:
you just wrote "Terminate?".
And I hope you know the meaning of terminate,so why are you stressing this.
You are simply overwelmed with guilt,it not as if you are trying to make a moral or academical point.

Which guilt? You guys think your guilt psychology can work on everybody. Let's me ask you one question;

How old are you?

Are you going to count your chronological existence from the time you were conceived or from the time you left your mother's womb?
You started existing as a person the moment you were born. If you add 9 months to your legal age, you will be guilty of perjury

wirinet:


Which guilt? You guys think your guilt psychology can work on everybody. Let's me ask you one question;

How old are you?

Are you going to count your chronological existence from the time you were conceived or from the time you left your mother's womb?
You started existing as a person the moment you were born. If you add 9 months to your legal age, you will be guilty of perjury

life begins at fertilization biologically but legally,life begins at birth,so technically you begat life immediately you got fertilized because development takes place from then.

It either you eat from abortion,or u don't wanna fancy guilt

wirinet:


I have never heard of "iron lungs", please give me a hint of what it entails and how it relates to the subject at hand.

Iron lung was a technology invented to help a person who cannot breathe to breathe through the machine. The machine literally forces a person to inhale and exhale. Its useful especially when there exist a form of paralysis/weakness of the thoracic cavity.

Why use this example:
Suppose my enemy is bedridden and breathes only through the use of the iron lung. If I intentionally disconnect this machine from its electrical supply to cause his death, would that not be murder?

Can I argue that the bedridden man cannot survive outside the machine therefore, he isn't human. In other words, the fact that my enemy is bedridden and helpless does not give me the right to terminate his life.

A baby in the womb is just like that. His only crime is that it has to spend 9 months in an iron lung (womb) of this woman who decided to deprive it of its right to life.

wirinet:

Apart from religious sentiments, no body can equate abortion to murder.
Murder is the unprovoked and intentional killing of another person , a foetus does not become a legal person until after birth.

You kill a foetus 1 hour before birth - abortion; you kill the same foetus 1 hour after birth - murder.

Let's examine your definition of murder
Murder is the unprovoked (here the foetus has not done anything against anyone). If there was any one guilty, it is usually the couple who decided to play ball without factoring in the consequences. What provocation could you say the foetus did?

and intentional killing of another person ,
Abortion is indeed intentional and deliberate termination (killing) of a human existence.

Person?
Who is person?
I think this is where we differ.
For me, a Person is any personality with the potential of growing to be a human adult.

So,
A Human Foetus is a personality
A Human Baby is a personality
A Human Toddler is a personality
A Human Child is a personality
A. Human Teenager is a personality
An Human Adult is a personality

Something is common to all:
they have 46 chromosomes
they are at various levels of development

Some foetus can survive from the seventh month of development.

wirinet:

As I said earlier no court in this world can charge someone who commits abortion for murder.

Yes, I agree with you here because the special word used for this kind of murder is abortion! The special reason is because the foetus cannot hire an advocate neither would lawyers defend a foetus.

wirinet:

It is only religious sentiments that makes others exhibit so much venom and hatred for other people's behaviours that has no bearing whatsoever on their life, ie abortion, homosexualism, mode of dressing, etc.

Its not about religious sentiment!
Its about human right.
Its about justice
Its about fairness

Does a mother have the right to kill her own one month old baby because of her poverty? Can she argue that this baby was born blind or deformed?

So, the helplessness of a foetus is no excuse for its murder.

wirinet:

Well your views are wrong and religiously tinted.
1. Scientifically a zygote or embryo is a living thing like all other living things. The man releases and "kill" millions of living things (sperms) and the woman also wastes hundreds of living things (ova), no big deal.

If you leave other cells to grow unhindered, what would they grow up to become? Matured Cells
If you leave a foetus to grow unhindered, what would they grow up to become? Matured Human

It would would grow up to be a full human adult. Why? That is what has been programmed into it. The foetus would grow up to grow breast and womb to become a mother.

wirinet:

2. Legal rights of what? Just as your blood cells, your sperm cells has no legal rights, a zygote and an embryo has no legal rights.
What happens if I harvest my own sperm, obtain hundreds of eggs, mix them in a test tube to fertilize and then destroy the resulting zygotes two days later, will you charge me for multiple homicide? This same attitude of religious fundamentalists is what has slowed down stem cell research, which has the potential to help cure many illnesses.

I wish you would complete the process of in vitro procedures for IVF. Fertilization take place outside the body BUT implantation, cell divisions and growth takes place in the womb.

In other words, the characteristics of living things you see exhibited in a foetus occurs in the womb not outside the womb.

wirinet:


3. I have explained what murder entails, it needs to involve a legal person. A fetus is not a person.

Now you are bringing in the definition of legal person.
And as explained before its about which legal representative will represent a foetus?

Its just like if a destitute dies, who would set up a legal representation to unravel the cause of death? In this case, a foetus is treated even worse than a destitute.

wirinet:

Civility and humanity is the exact reason I am a strong advocate of abortion. I have seen a new born floating on the Lagos lagoon. That memory traumatised me till today. My wife had seen a new born dumped alive in a refuse bin covered with ants. Luckily the baby survived. I strongly believe a woman who does not want to have and care for a baby should never be forced to have a baby as punishment for her sexual sins.

Your solution is like: kill a baby before it comes out of the womb so that it wont suffer later in life.
Your preaching should be have safe and responsible sex rather than promoting abortion as a quick fix to a couples irresponsible sexual behaviours.

wirinet:

It is you religionists that play the ostrich and in the process cause a lot of harm to the society.
Catholic bans the use of condom and contraceptives, you have increase in HIV/AIDS and unwanted children as consequence.

You ban aspiring priest from marrying and having healthy sex, you breed child molesters and homosexuals as priests.

You ban and criminalise abortion, you create so many related problems, like over population, high rate of unwanted children roaming the streets becoming recruits for terrorists and armed robbers, high death rate from abortion related complications from people going underground to procure abortion from quacks . Too many problems problems to mention.

Human beings always look at who to blame for their woes. Who should be rightly blamed?
The irresponsible couple who are having indiscriminate unprotected sex
OR
Those who defend the rights of the unborn child?

Who among the two is really the public enemy?

wirinet:

This is the only quote I agree 100% with you. People should be educated on how to prevent unwanted pregnancies apart from STDs, teenagers should be taught both at home and at school the dangers of unprotected sex. In addition, provisions should be made for women who "mistakenly" become pregnant and do not want the baby. A law and facilities should be provided for pregnancy to be aborted early if the woman truly does not want the baby, probably within the first trimester.

Believe me abortion is not Nigeria's problem, it's over population. The birth rate in nigeria is one of the highest in the world, it is higher that the birth rate of all European countries added together. Nigeria is presently finding it difficult to cater for 200 million people with our limited resources.

Yes, we have a problem ovlf overpopulation!
However, safe sex, responsible sex and maturity is the solution NOT abortion.

The question I'll like to pose to you is this?
Since you say a foetus is not human, when doe a foetus become human?
1. Is a 9 month old pregnancy foetus just a collection of cells?
2. Can the killing and pulling out a 9 month old pregnancy (if a mother decided she has a changebof heart) be treated as a no crime situation?
3. Can women ethically and legally begin sell their foetus for stem cell research ?
4. A cosmetic product just arrived: it is made from human foetus. How right? Foetuses are just cells isn't it?

Kholiwe:

Abortion does not equate to killing a living breathing existing
human being. Abortion is scientifically a medical procedure in
which a mother terminates a fetus. To equate abortion to
murder would be absolutely insane. So a man has a choice
between killing a woman or a fetus, both are equivalently evil
and murder? The woman has a life, dreams, family, history,
possibly a job. The fetus has nothing but what it is given.

A baby is a human being isn't it?
But a baby girl doesn't have breasts, which means that she is still in the development phase.

How is that different from a foetus? A foetus is a human being still in its development phase.

When does a pregnancy qualify to be human?
3 , 4, 8 or 9 months?

Surpose a surgeon decides to intentionally terminate the life of a Baby during a caesarian operation (at the point of delivery) would it be termed as
a. An abortion
b. A Murder
c. An inconsequential action on the part of the doctor.

If it could be proved that the doctor has a motive?



Pls answer this question above as truthfully as you can.

shadeyinka:


Iron lung was a technology invented to help a person who cannot breathe to breathe through the machine. The machine literally forces a person to inhale and exhale. Its useful especially when there exist a form of paralysis/weakness of the thoracic cavity.

Why use this example:
Suppose my enemy is bedridden and breathes only through the use of the iron lung. If I intentionally disconnect this machine from its electrical supply to cause his death, would that not be murder?

Very poor analogy as I said earlier. I already showed why the analogy does not hold water. Your iron lung is like any other medical device that duplicates the function of a vital organ, ie dialysis machine, oxygen mask, heart pace maker, etc. Someone disconnecting such life saving device without authorisation constitutes murder.

A foetus is a parasite, it lives of the body of the mother. It causes discomfort and sometimes constitute some danger to the woman. If the mother wants and loves the potential baby, then she is prepared to risk all for the foetus to survive and become a baby. And that is only half the sacrifice.
A loving mother would be ready invest all her resources to ensure the survival of her baby. All these are missing if the mother does not want a baby. If she is forced to give birth to a child she definitely does not want as punishment for sexual immorality, it is the child you are punishing. The mother would simply dump the baby or the child after it is born, and the child then constitutes a nuisance to society.

This is a social problem plaguing many poor communities including black communities in the US.

Can I argue that the bedridden man cannot survive outside the machine therefore, he isn't human. In other words, the fact that my enemy is bedridden and helpless does not give me the right to terminate his life.

As explained before, a woman is not a machine. You can only use this analogy if the foetus is removed from her womb and placed inside a kind of "iron lung" machine, that is even if we accept a foetus being a legal person, anybody pulling the plug would be committing murder.

A baby in the womb is just like that. His only crime is that it has to spend 9 months in an iron lung (womb) of this woman who decided to deprive it of its right to life.

The baby might as well decide to spend the 9 months on another host, if the woman that the fertilization process took place in her body refuses to host it.

Let's examine your definition of murder
Murder is the unprovoked (here the foetus has not done anything against anyone). If there was any one guilty, it is usually the couple who decided to play ball without factoring in the consequences. What provocation could you say the foetus did?

and intentional killing of another person ,
Abortion is indeed intentional and deliberate termination (killing) of a human existence.

Person?
Who is person?
I think this is where we differ.
[b] For me , a Person is any personality with the potential of growing to be a human adult.[/b]

You rightly said; for you! For others a person is an actual human and not potential adult.

So,
A Human Foetus is a personality
A Human Baby is a personality
A Human Toddler is a personality
A Human Child is a personality
A. Human Teenager is a personality
An Human Adult is a personality

Something is common to all:
they have 46 chromosomes
they are at various levels of development

A Human Foetus has no personality, no identify and no seperate existence outside it's mother.

Some other animals also possess 46 chromosomes, having 46 chromosomes does not neccessarily make an animal human.

Some foetus can survive from the seventh month of development.

Most others survive for 9 months, few are born premature at 6 months and have to be kept in an incubator. The process that converts a foetus to a baby is birth. Once it is outside the mothers body, it becomes a separate entity or personality.

Yes, I agree with you here because the special word used for this kind of murder is abortion! The special reason is because the foetus cannot hire an advocate neither would lawyers defend a foetus.


Its not about religious sentiment!
Its about human right.
Its about justice
Its about fairness

Since fetuses are unable to defends their rights and you are so motivated, why not take up the challenge.

You can start an advocacy group that go to court to defend the human rights of fetuses.

Does a mother have the right to kill her own one month old baby because of her poverty? Can she argue that this baby was born blind or deformed?

Killing a one minute old baby is murder. One misconception people have is that women go for abortion due to poverty. Nothing can be further from the truth. It is the rich and middle class that perform abortion the most. The main reasons for abortion are career, schooling and the man refusing to take responsibility. Poor people cannot afford a proper abortion.

wirinet:


Very poor analogy as I said earlier. I already showed why the analogy does not hold water. Your iron lung is like any other medical device that duplicates the function of a vital organ, ie dialysis machine, oxygen mask, heart pace maker, etc. Someone disconnecting such life saving device without authorisation constitutes murder.

A foetus is a parasite, it lives of the body of the mother. It causes discomfort and sometimes constitute some danger to the woman. If the mother wants and loves the potential baby, then she is prepared to risk all for the foetus to survive and become a baby. And that is only half the sacrifice.
A loving mother would be ready invest all her resources to ensure the survival of her baby. All these are missing if the mother does not want a baby. If she is forced to give birth to a child she definitely does not want as punishment for sexual immorality, it is the child you are punishing. The mother would simply dump the baby or the child after it is born, and the child then constitutes a nuisance to society.

This is a social problem plaguing many poor communities including black communities in the US.

As explained before, a woman is not a machine. You can only use this analogy if the foetus is removed from her womb and placed inside a kind of "iron lung" machine, that is even if we accept a foetus being a legal person, anybody pulling the plug would be committing murder.


The baby might as well decide to spend the 9 months on another host, if the woman that the fertilization process took place in her body refuses to host it.

Let's examine your definition of murder
Murder is the unprovoked (here the foetus has not done anything against anyone). If there was any one guilty, it is usually the couple who decided to play ball without factoring in the consequences. What provocation could you say the foetus did?


You rightly said; for you! For others a person is an actual human and not potential adult.


A Human Foetus has no personality, no identify and no seperate existence outside it's mother.

Some other animals also possess 46 chromosomes, having 46 chromosomes does not neccessarily make an animal human.


Most others survive for 9 months, few are born premature at 6 months and have to be kept in an incubator. The process that converts a foetus to a baby is birth. Once it is outside the mothers body, it becomes a separate entity or personality.


Since fetuses are unable to defends their rights and you are so motivated, why not take up the challenge.

You can start an advocacy group that go to court to defend the human rights of fetuses.


Killing a one minute old baby is murder. One misconception people have is that women go for abortion due to poverty. Nothing can be further from the truth. It is the rich and middle class that perform abortion the most. The main reasons for abortion are career, schooling and the man refusing to take responsibility. Poor people cannot afford a proper abortion.

Let's start with the portions you ignored because all you keep doing is asserting that a foetus isn't yet a person but a parasite hence can be murdered at will.

Yes, we have a problem ovlf overpopulation!
However, safe sex, responsible sex and maturity is the solution NOT abortion.

The question I'll like to pose to you is this?
Since you say a foetus is not human, when doe a foetus become human?
1. Is a 9 month old pregnancy foetus just a collection of cells?

And let me pose the same question I gave kholiwe

Surpose a surgeon decides to intentionally terminate the life of a Baby during a caesarian operation (just before the point of delivery) would it be termed as
a. An abortion
b. A Murder
c. An inconsequential action on the part of the doctor.

If it could be proved that the doctor has a motive?



Pls answer this question above as truthfully as you can.

shadeyinka:

Let's start with the portions you ignored because all you keep doing is asserting that a foetus isn't yet a person but a parasite hence can be murdered at will.

Yes, we have a problem ovlf overpopulation!
However, safe sex, responsible sex and maturity is the solution NOT abortion.

The question I'll like to pose to you is this?
Since you say a foetus is not human, when doe a foetus become human?
1. Is a 9 month old pregnancy foetus just a collection of cells?

And let me pose the same question I gave kholiwe

Surpose a surgeon decides to intentionally terminate the life of a Baby during a caesarian operation (just before the point of delivery) would it be termed as
a. An abortion
b. A Murder
c. An inconsequential action on the part of the doctor.

If it could be proved that the doctor has a motive?



Pls answer this question above as truthfully as you can.

Reason I stopped responding half way is that I am very tired. Had a difficult day at work today and want to go to bed.

Will try and respond as best as I can.

As I agreed, safe sex is the most ideal way to deal with the problem of unwanted pregnancy ( and STDs ), but ideal is diffetent from reality. We live in a sexually liberated and perverse society. Civilization comes with it the added baggages of vices, ie, sex and sexually explicit messages. You or our youth cannot escape it. From the Internet to the TV screens to magazines. So the issue of scaring people with threats of hell, guilt or even punishment will not work. Nigerians are some of the highest visitors to porn sites in the world. ( forget the hypocritical outward appearance of sisters and brothers in the Lord, they are all a facade.

The best solution is to take sex education more serious in the homes and schools.
I think I am beginning to digress too much.

About the surgeon that intentionally kills a baby during a CS operation. It will be very difficult to charge the doctor for murder, even if the mother dies in the process.
For the foetus. As I have said you cannot legally murder a foetus. The doctor can be sued and charged for misconduct, negligence, unprofessional conduct, but never murder.

As per the mother, it will also be difficult to prove murder. To prove murder in a law court, you will have to prove motive and premeditation. It will be difficult to prove he killed the mother with the baby intentionally.

On the other hand if the baby was born alive and the doctor killed the baby, he could be charged for murder, but the lawyers would still be required to prove motive and premeditation

Manslaughter would be easier to prove than murder.

wirinet:


Reason I stopped responding half way is that I am very tired. Had a difficult day at work today and want to go to bed.

Will try and respond as best as I can.

As I agreed, safe sex is the most ideal way to deal with the problem of unwanted pregnancy ( and STDs ), but ideal is diffetent from reality. We live in a sexually liberated and perverse society. Civilization comes with it the added baggages of vices, ie, sex and sexually explicit messages. You or our youth cannot escape it. From the Internet to the TV screens to magazines. So the issue of scaring people with threats of hell, guilt or even punishment will not work. Nigerians are some of the highest visitors to porn sites in the world. ( forget the hypocritical outward appearance of sisters and brothers in the Lord, they are all a facade.

The best solution is to take sex education more serious in the homes and schools.
I think I am beginning to digress too much.

To a large extent, I agree with you here. The best is to practice responsible and safe sex (even in legal marriage situations )

But your remedy is what I don't agree with.

Its like saying "let's legalize bringing in of "microchips" during examinations so that no student would be rusticated for the sake of exam malpractice. Of course, we live in an imperfect world. Some students will always chest during examinations.

Here, the hard way seems to be the best way: all students should study hard. Same with safe sex with respect to abortion. Abortion should not be legalized because some people will not have responsible and safe sex.

wirinet:

About the surgeon that intentionally kills a baby during a CS operation. It will be very difficult to charge the doctor for murder, even if the mother dies in the process.
For the foetus. As I have said you cannot legally murder a foetus. The doctor can be sued and charged for misconduct, negligence, unprofessional conduct, but never murder.

As per the mother, it will also be difficult to prove murder. To prove murder in a law court, you will have to prove motive and premeditation. It will be difficult to prove he killed the mother with the baby intentionally.

On the other hand if the baby was born alive and the doctor killed the baby, he could be charged for murder, but the lawyers would still be required to prove motive and premeditation

Manslaughter would be easier to prove than murder.

My question actually insinuates that the doctor has a motive. Example:
Let's assume the doctor is female and used to be the jilted and dumped girlfriend of the husband of this woman in labour. If she intentionally killed the foetus during what should be a normal CS delivery session, can she be sued for murder?

Could the argument go thus:
"My Lord, I admit I killed her foetus. But it was still in her womb and therefore, the baby isn't yet human"?

a. Would it be called an abortion?
b. Murder?
c. Inconsequential act (of destroying a parasite)?

IjeleNwa:
You Asked him to Use Protection Because you ain't Ready for a Baby but he says he prefers it Bumper to Bumper because that's where the Sweetness lies and now you got pregnant, he Gives You money for Abortion.
No problem, my sister take the money and do some shopping for your baby and when the baby is born ,hand him over to him to do the killing himself,you can't just turn a murderer for a man who is not capable of handling his responsibilities

Say No To ABORTION!

You never can tell .... It might be your only fruit.

Be wise.

Awon abortion crew!

Sure you would be stupid too, to let him sleep with you without protection, when even yourself you are not ready to be a mum, use protection too there are more contraceptives methods for women than for men, why leave the full responsibility to a man , when you can also protect yourself without him putting at the risky when are not ready

shadeyinka:

A foetus becomes alive when it shows that characteristics of living things QED. Any other explanations is just attempt to justify murder.

Murder is when a human being deprives another human life his right to life for his personal gain.

A human being continues in stages of development and growth until the end of puberty. Now, since a child dosnt YET have a breast, does that prove that the child is not yet human because she doesnt have mamary glands?

No!

A foetus is just in a state of human development just like a child is still in a stage of normal development.

If humans do not selfishly terminate the life of a foetus, it could become the President of a country.
Just as
If humans do not selfishly terminate the life of a child, it could become the President of a country

It is murder!

Murder is intentionally truncating another human life for selfish reasons
Abortionis intentionally truncating another human life for selfish reasons

You keep on evading the definition of murder. Once you do, it becomes simple.

If you say a foetus cannot speak nor protest, how about a newborn baby?

Do you even have an idea of how abortion is done?

Let no one deceive you. Abortion is Murder.

Note:
When you let a human egg follicle be, it matures and dies within 48-36 hours after ovulation.

When you let a human sperm be, it matures and dies within 24 hours after ejaculation.

When you let a human foetus be, it matures and grow up to become an adult within 18 years.

Abortion is selfishly terminating a human right to life!

Bros, your problem is that you are the typical Nigerian who can't reason logically with others.

The woman has every right to decide if the foetus should grow in her womb or not. It's no one's choice. The earlier you religious and sentimental folks get it, the better!

Newboss:
Bros, your problem is that you are the typical Nigerian who can't reason logically with others.

The woman has every right to decide if the foetus should grow in her womb or not. It's no one's choice. The earlier you religious and sentimental folks get it, the better!

Why is suicide a crime to the state?
Shouldn't a person have right over his/her own life?

If suicide is a crime, how then can you justify abortion.

The white man isn't my model for everything. Since I am not their slave, I reserve the right to hold a deferent opinion from them. If oyibo man legalize beastiality would would you follow suit?

shadeyinka:


But your remedy is what I don't agree with.

Its like saying "let's legalize bringing in of "microchips" during examinations so that no student would be rusticated for the sake of exam malpractice. Of course, we live in an imperfect world. Some students will always chest during examinations.

Exam malpractice cannot be compared to aborting a baby. No school in this world would not criminalise exam malpractices. Exams are a test of knowledge, competency and skill, exam malpractice distorts these attributes, which can have devastating consequences.

Here, the hard way seems to be the best way: all students should study hard. Same with safe sex with respect to abortion. Abortion should not be legalized because some people will not have responsible and safe sex.

Abortion is a fact of life, whether you legalize it or not. If you illegality it, the industry will simply go underground with more negative consequences. Like all other religious inspired law, it is the poor women and their unwanted babies that would suffer, the rich would always find their way out. In Catholic Ireland where abortion is criminalized, the rich travel out of Ireland to abortion friendly European nations to procure abortion.

Illegalizing abortion is highly complex and sexist. The laws will be very hard to effect. Who do you prosecute for abortion?
The woman who does not want the baby?
The doctors and nurses who carried out the procedure?
The chemist who sold abortion pills to the woman?
Or
The guy who got the girl pregnant but refuses to take responsibility for the pregnancy and baby?

You see, our male chauvinistic society puts all the blame and responsibility of an unwanted pregnancy on the woman. Afterall, the man does not suffer any effect of pregnancy and caring for a new born. He can simply walk away and not give a care in the world. Even the religious people puts all the blame on the woman and so wish the woman have the baby as punishment for her sins. No care at all for the unwanted baby.

My question actually insinuates that the doctor has a motive. Example:
Let's assume the doctor is female and used to be the jilted and dumped girlfriend of the husband of this woman in labour. If she intentionally killed the foetus during what should be a normal CS delivery session, can she be sued for murder?

Could the argument go thus:
"My Lord, I admit I killed her foetus. But it was still in her womb and therefore, the baby isn't yet human"?

a. Would it be called an abortion?
b. Murder?
c. Inconsequential act (of destroying a parasite)?

I already answered this. I told you that if the doctor killed the foetus after delivery, it's murder. If the doctor killed the foetus before delivery, it's criminal abortion.

The very definition of the word abortion means the process was not allowed to complete or materialize. Aborting the installation of android means android was not installed. Aborting a baby means a baby was not produced.

You find many stories online of mothers killing their newly born babies. They are charged with murder.

Here is one;

Teen mom Erica Gomez arrested for allegedly stabbing, killing newborn baby - https://www.google.com.ng/amp/s/amp.elpasotimes.com/amp/370068002

The baby has to be born first before it can be murdered.

wirinet:

Exam malpractice cannot be compared to aborting a baby. No school in this world would not criminalise exam malpractices. Exams are a test of knowledge, competency and skill, exam malpractice distorts these attributes, which can have devastating consequences.




Abortion is a fact of life, whether you legalize it or not. If you illegality it, the industry will simply go underground with more negative consequences. Like all other religious inspired law, it is the poor women and their unwanted babies that would suffer, the rich would always find their way out. In Catholic Ireland where abortion is criminalized, the rich travel out of Ireland to abortion friendly European nations to procure abortion.

Illegalizing abortion is highly complex and sexist. The laws will be very hard to effect. Who do you prosecute for abortion?
The woman who does not want the baby?
The doctors and nurses who carried out the procedure?
The chemist who sold abortion pills to the woman?
Or
The guy who got the girl pregnant but refuses to take responsibility for the pregnancy and baby?

You see, our male chauvinistic society puts all the blame and responsibility of an unwanted pregnancy on the woman. Afterall, the man does not suffer any effect of pregnancy and caring for a new born. He can simply walk away and not give a care in the world. Even the religious people puts all the blame on the woman and so wish the woman have the baby as punishment for her sins. No care at all for the unwanted baby.



I already answered this. I told you that if the doctor killed the foetus after delivery, it's murder. If the doctor killed the foetus before delivery, it's criminal abortion.

The very definition of the word abortion means the process was not allowed to complete or materialize. Aborting the installation of android means android was not installed. Aborting a baby means a baby was not produced.

You find many stories online of mothers killing their newly born babies. They are charged with murder.

Here is one;


The baby has to be born first before it can be murdered.

What you are saying is that you have proved that the foetus below cannot feel pain!

What you are saying is that the foetus below isn't human!

What you are saying is that the foetus below does not have a right!

What you are telling me is that the foetus below is less than an animal!

Even, animals have rights but this future Prime Minister, Governor, Doctor, Lawyer, Businessman etc don't have a right!?

His only offence is that he is totally dependent on her mum for survival. But aren't new born babies also totally dependent?

I rest my case

shadeyinka:

A baby is a human being isn't it?
But a baby girl doesn't have breasts, which means that she is still in the development phase.

How is that different from a foetus? A foetus is a human being still in its development phase.

When does a pregnancy qualify to be human?
3 , 4, 8 or 9 months?

Surpose a surgeon decides to intentionally terminate the life of a Baby during a caesarian operation (at the point of delivery) would it be termed as
a. An abortion
b. A Murder
c. An inconsequential action on the part of the doctor.

If it could be proved that the doctor has a motive?



Pls answer this question above as truthfully as you can.

As long as the baby leaves the mother womb it now has legal rights then its a murder. But as long as its inside another human its not a murder

Kholiwe:

As long as the baby leaves the mother womb it now has legal rights then its a murder. But as long as its inside another human its not a murder

To you, killing this baby isn't murder!?