mazaje:

I consider it necessary because it makes life worth living. . . .

Why should your life be worth living? What intrinsic value does your life possess, different from say, a bacterium that it should be worth living?

mazaje:

I am alive and because of that i will like my live to have meaning. . .

Yes, you are alive, but why is it important for your life to have meaning, seeing as it will all end in futility.

aletheia:

. . . seeing as it will all end in futility.

IN NOTHINGNESS!

Let us make it clear -

The chart below shows clearly that the ultimate purpose in Mazaje's view is nothingness.


[center]Nothingness
↑
↑
↑
↑
↑
Death
↑
↑
↑
↑
↑

Purposes while on Earth
↑
↑
↑
↑
↑
Birth into life on Earth[/center]

aletheia:

Why should your life be worth living? What intrinsic value does your life possess, different from say, a bacterium that it should be worth living?

Why should my life not be worth living?. . .On what basis did you come to the conclusion that a bacterium's life should not be worth living?. . .I am not a bacterium so I don't know what it takes to be one, but all I know is that making my life worth living gives me a great deal of happiness, comfort and also a great sense of fulfillment. . .

Yes, you are alive, but why is it important for your life to have meaning, seeing as it will all end in futility

Death is completely irrelevant to the question of the meaning of life, If human beings were naturally immortal and if there were no such thing as death there would still be a question about whether or not our lives had meaning. The underlying assumption behind this claim of yours (which I find completely ridiculous) is that life is meaningless because it ends in death  and as such for something to be meaningful or worthwhile it must last forever   . . .The fact that many of the things we value and cherish greatly (such as relationships with others) and activities that we find worthwhile (such as sports, getting and education, sexual activities, luxury, pursuing our dreams or goals in life or raising a child) do not last forever shows that life does not need to be everlasting to be meaningful at all.

We are alive and for that reason its up to us to make sure that our lives are meaningful and worth living. . .How the eternal hypothesis of life after death adds meaning to life is yet to be shown. . . .

Deep Sight:

IN NOTHINGNESS!

Let us make it clear -

The chart below shows clearly that the ultimate purpose in Mazaje's view is nothingness.


[center]Nothingness
↑
↑
↑
↑
↑
Death
↑
↑
↑
↑
↑

Purposes while on Earth
↑
↑
↑
↑
↑
Birth into life on Earth[/center]

People live and die and their is nothing wrong with it because that is how nature operates, animals, humans planets and stars all come into existence live and then die out after some time. . . .Death appears to render life meaningless for many people like you because you guys feel that there is no point in developing character or increasing knowledge if our progress is ultimately going to be thwarted by death. That is a very false premise because there is a point in developing character and increasing knowledge before death overtakes us. We have to care about there here and now in order to provide peace of mind and intellectual satisfaction to our lives and to the lives of those we care about for their own sake because pursuing these goals enriches our lives, . .

From the fact that death is inevitable it does not follow that nothing we do matters now at all. On the contrary, all our actions shows that our lives matter a great deal to us. If they did not, we would not find the idea of our own death so distressing. . . .it wouldn't matter that our lives will come to an end. The fact that we're all eventually going to die has no relevance to whether our activities are worthwhile in the here and now. . . .We are here so we must have to make our lives worth living, Again I ask how does the knowledge that death ends it all make life not worthy of living?. . .How does it minimize the importance of life and how does the life after death hypothesis make life more meaningful? Pls answer the questions. . . .

I don't understand why believing life ends in nothingness is something to be ashamed or embarrassed of. The way oga deepsight dey make him statements u go think say na crime.

@ deepsight. i asked u if the possibility of life ending in nothingness makes u uncomfortable, and why, but u no answer me. Wetin i do u nah?

^^^^

I tire for deepsight ohhh. . . .

mazaje:

People live and die and their is nothing wrong with it because that is how nature operates, animals, humans planets and stars all come into existence live and then die out after some time. . . .Death appears to render life meaningless for many people like you because you guys feel that there is no point in developing character or increasing knowledge if our progress is ultimately going to be thwarted by death. That is a very false premise because there is a point in developing character and increasing knowledge before death overtakes us. We have to care about there here and now in order to provide peace of mind and intellectual satisfaction to our lives and to the lives of those we care about for their own sake because pursuing these goals enriches our lives, . .

From the fact that death is inevitable it does not follow that nothing we do matters now at all. On the contrary, all our actions shows that our lives matter a great deal to us. If they did not, we would not find the idea of our own death so distressing. . . .it wouldn't matter that our lives will come to an end. The fact that we're all eventually going to die has no relevance to whether our activities are worthwhile in the here and now. . . .We are here so we must have to make our lives worth living, Again I ask how does the knowledge that death ends it all make life not worthy of living?. . .How does it minimize the importance of life and how does the life after death hypothesis make life more meaningful? Pls answer the questions. . . .

I don't know that the life after death hypothesis (as you put it) makes life more meaningful. I have not stated so here. You attempt to second guess me.
You try to limit your argument to the here and now. But what makes you believe that your activities for the brief span of your life are meaningful or purposeful? Perhaps, it's just an illusory perception. Maybe you are genetically programmed to believe that your existence makes sense. More like it has no meaning or purpose.

[center]from nothing>>------------[mazaje's lifespan]-------------------->>to nothing[/center]

Or to use a visual allegory: that a candle burns brightly in the dark for the space of a few hours and then goes out. When the candle is gone, has the darkness being diminished or changed in any way?

aletheia:

I don't know that the life after death hypothesis (as you put it) makes life more meaningful. I have not stated so here. You attempt to second guess me.
You try to limit your argument to the here and now. But what makes you believe that your activities for the brief span of your life are meaningful or purposeful? Perhaps, it's just an illusory perception. Maybe you are genetically programmed to believe that your existence makes sense. More like it has no meaning or purpose.



Or to use a visual allegory: that a candle burns brightly in the dark for the space of a few hours and then goes out. When the candle is gone, has the darkness being diminished or changed in any way?

I love this. Just briliant.

This -

[center]from nothing>>------------[mazaje's lifespan]-------------------->>to nothing[/center]

- Shows the lifespan in between two extremes of nothingness to be absolutely irrelevant.

I disagree that the after-life thesis does not make life more meaningful.

That is like saying that a destination is irrelevant to a journey.

The candle's purpose is to light up the room while it is lit. When it's lifespan is over it dies off.

If anything that example makes Mazaje's point. What happens after death is irrelevant as fas as having a purposeful life goes. Did the candle not light up the room while it was lit?

WHO NEEDS IT TO DO THAT?

From nothingness to nothingness presupposes a purposes of nothingness and that is mathematical - to wit - the result (=) Nothing.

If you will answer the WHO question above, then you will see that it summarily proves that there is always an external purpose so long as we remain finite.

The candle is not its own purpose. A man needs it to see in the darkness.

WHO OR WHAT NEEDS MANKIND?

So let us be clear: a man lights the candle for a purpose.

The candle could not exist in darkness without that purpose.

Something external to it is responsible for its purpose.

Could there be something external to us that is responsible for our purpose?

It's mathematically flawed.

Meaning is only a concept not an object.

Although I don't believe that everything ends in death, I see it as irrelevant.
Life is meaningful if you make it meaningful. It's as simple as that.

You have not said anything, Bastage.

What do you mean I haven't said anything?

You're trying to prove that life is meaningless if it begins with nothing and ends with nothing by using mathematics.
You simply can't do that.

Like I said - meaning is a concept. A concept can be created from nothingness. It can also die into nothingness. But whilst it is kept alive by the conceiver, that concept exists.

So the mathematical formula could just as well be: Nothing ----> Meaning/Purpose -----> Nothing

Bastage:

What do you mean I haven't said anything?

Exactly that.

You're trying to prove that life is meaningless if it begins with nothing and ends with nothing by using mathematics.
You simply can't do that.

I can.

Here is the irrefutable equation -

0 + 1 - 1 = 0

Because you start with zero, add a factor (1) - representing life and then you minus that factor (at death, it ceases to exist) and thus end up with zero.

The summary of this equation (which is life as Mazaje has described it,) is Zero, and thus nothingness.

Like I said - meaning is a concept. A concept can be created from nothingness.

I POSITIVELY CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME JUST ONE CONCEPT THAT AROSE FROM NOTHINGNESS.

Deep Sight:

WHO NEEDS IT TO DO THAT?

The candle lighting up darkness. Nobody has to need the light for the candle to live it's life. The example made no mention of anybody. You are projecting someone into the mix. . .the same way religions project God into the mix.

Deep Sight:

From nothingness to nothingness presupposes a purposes of nothingness and that is mathematical - to wit - the result (=) Nothing.

We are social beings, so that one person dies off does not necessarily mean his life was meaningless. His/her impact on the lives of others can be a form of purpose or meaning or whatever. Remove man from the society and what u have is not man anymore IMO. Too much focus on the individual distorts reality. Man is nothing alone. From the moment u are conceived/born your survival depends on others. Why can't the purpose or meaning of your life be a function of your relationship with society. Why conjure up souls, and spirits, Gods and realms. Death scares the hell out of y'all and u guys need all these magical stuff to help u get thru. Kinda funny.

Deep Sight:

If you will answer the WHO question above, then you will see that it summarily proves that there is always an external purpose so long as we remain finite.

There was no who in the original example, if there was, my response would have been different.  

Deep Sight:

The candle is not its own purpose. A man needs it to see in the darkness.

And your point is? That God NEEDS us for sumn? the omnipotent one?

Deep Sight:

WHO OR WHAT NEEDS MANKIND?

Man needs mankind.

Krayola:

The candle lighting up darkness. Nobody has to need the light for the candle to live it's life.

Do candles light themselves?

We are social beings, so that one person dies off does not necessarily mean his life was meaningless. His/her impact on the lives of others can be a form of purpose or meaning or whatever. Remove man from the society and what u have is not man anymore IMO. Too much focus on the individual distorts reality. Man is nothing alone. From the moment u are born your survival depends on others. Why can't the purpose or meaning of your life be a function of your relationship with society. Why conjure up souls, and spirits, Gods and realms. Death scares the hell out of y'all and u guys need all these magical stuff to help u get thru. Kinda funny.

You have not read my earlier posts, have you?

You talk about societies. When we are all gone, the equation still results in zero.

There was no who in the original example, if there was, my response would have been different.

Do candles light themselves?

And your point is? That God NEEDS us for sumn? the omnipotent one?

That we are an expression of something does not mean that that thing needs us. Your art may be an expression of you. This does not mean that you need it. Rather it finds its purpose in that which you have done it for.

Man needs mankind.

You know very well that this is circular reasoning.

Deep Sight:

Do candles light themselves?

That's what i was waiting for. the " there most be a cause. . . an uncaused cause". i was trying to avoid that so we don't have the same debate for the 9900th time I have never observed a candle start burning by itself before. Fires can be started independent of human activity though.

Deep Sight:

You have not read my earlier posts, have you?

You talk about societies. When we are all gone, the equation still results in zero.

Which is why I have asked you twice now why that makes you uncomfortable. Why does nothingness make u uncomfortable. What is it about that possibility that scares the hell outta u.

Deep Sight:

Do candles light themselves?

I swear I just responded to this

Deep Sight:

That we are an expression of something does not mean that that thing needs us. Your art may be an expression of you. This does not mean that you need it. Rather it finds its purpose in that which you have done it for.

An expression of what exactly are we, and how does this whole expression thing work?

Deep Sight:

You know very well that this is circular reasoning.

really? Can man survive by himself? how? Man needs mankind like we need air, food and water. We need man more than we need God. AT least IMO.

Deep Sight:


Here is the irrefutable equation -

0 + 1 - 1 = 0

The human being is an object. Whatever came before or came after are concepts. Although meaning is a concept, it is irrevocably tied in with the object that it is associated with. You cannot mix concepts and objects in the same equation and call it irrefutable.
Not only that but you cannot apply a mathematical figure to a concept and claim it to be absolute proof in this case for the simple fact that a concept is a thought or idea. Sure in the context of perceived reality with defineable objects you may be able to prove a pretty solid argument. But in an argument that contains unknown concepts such as eternity and being? No way.

I POSITIVELY CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME JUST ONE CONCEPT THAT AROSE FROM NOTHINGNESS.

Concepts are not infinite. They all have beginnings. They may be affected by other factors but that doesn't mean that they are created by them.

Bastage:

The human being is an object. Whatever came before or came after are concepts.

I think "wild guesses" is more appropriate. I gbadun your post tho.

I am really enjoying the thread, in particular, the way in which it has morphed.

I just don't get this fallacious and ridiculous arguments deepsight is proposing. . . .Why does life have to be eternal for it to be meaningful when the eternal concept is only a hypothesis that has no evidence to back it up at all. . . .People are here and as such they need to make their lives meaningful. . . . .The life after death does NOT give life more meaning, There is no evidence to show that it does. . .Religious societies that believe in the afterlife do NOT live meaningful o morer purposeful lives than atheist societies. . . .There are so many things here that make life meaningful, the after life is not one of them. . . .

Deep Sight:

KAG! Where u been at? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

I opened this thread for you a while back but you never showed up . . .

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-357796.0.html

It seems to have taken its own course. I don't think my presence was as necessary as you may have thought.

Deep Sight:

Nirvana is NOT a state of Nothingness.

Nirvana (Sanskrit: निर्वाण; Pali: निब्बान; Prakrit: णिव्वाण) is the state of being free from suffering (or dukkha) in sramanic thought. In Pāli, "Nibbāna" means "blowing out" — that is, blowing out the fires of greed, hatred, and delusion.[1] The word refers to central concepts in both Buddhism and Jainism.

The Buddha described Nirvāṇa as the perfect peace of the state of mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states (kilesas). It is also the "end of the world"; there is no identity left, and no boundaries for the mind. The subject is at peace with the world, has compassion for all and gives up obsessions and fixations. This peace is achieved when the existing volitional formations are pacified, and the conditions for the production of new ones are eradicated. In Nirvāṇa the root causes of craving and aversion have been extinguished, so that one is no longer subject to human suffering (Pali: dukkha) or further rebirth in Samsara.

So nothing, then. This gross celebration of a lack of self and all its components - is this Nirvana also not a fate worse than death? - is the true face of nihilism.

It's understandable to fear death; it's not so understandable to forget that an end can focus meaning into a life.

^^^ @ mazaje

Asking for facts is one thing BUT living in DENIAL is a completely different one.

How do u explain the many non-religious people who have experienced after-life or near-death-experiences?

noetic17:

^^^ @ mazaje

Asking for facts is one thing BUT living in DENIAL is a completely different one.

How do u explain the many non-religious people who have experienced after-life or near-death-experiences?

What do you know about near death experiences?. . . .Go educate yourself about it. . .NDE is NOT an evidence for an after life but a natural occurrence that can and has been induced artificially in labs. . . . Who are the religious people that have experienced life after death?. Do you not wonder why Muslims claim to have life after death that agree with their religious doctrines and teachings, in fact dreams, visions or activities that promote these experiences are encouraged in some Islamic school of thought? Do you not wonder why Hindu's have life after death experiences that have to do with reincarnation which also agrees with their religious beliefs? There are so many documented cases of reincarnation in India. Christians also have life after death experiences that involve the christian teachings and doctrines. . . .All these various and conflicting claims are enough evidence that the life after death hypothesis is a sham. . . .

Nirvana is NOT a state of Nothingness.

OK. I had Nirvana explained to me by a Buddhist Monk when I visited a temple.

His words when I asked him what it was were "Nirvana is not even nothing. It is beyond nothingness. Even nothingness does not exist."

As it's hard to comprehend a state that is "not even nothingness", I believe that the statement I made stands as it is and is certainly fitting in the context that it has been used here.

And I agree with KAG. It is the ultimate in nihiilism.

^^^ Given even your own words you acknowledge that Nirvana is NOT a state of nothingness.

You seem to equate the dissipation of "self" with nothingness. That is incorrect. There is more to existence than "self" as we know it.

Nothingness by its very definition does NOT EXIST AT ALL. IT IS NOTHINGNESS - AND ACCORDINGLY NON-EXISTENT.

mazaje:

What do you know about near death experiences?. . . .Go educate yourself about it. . .NDE is NOT an evidence for an after life but a natural occurrence that can and has been induced artificially in labs. . . . Who are the religious people that have experienced life after death?. Do you not wonder why Muslims claim to have life after death that agree with their religious doctrines and teachings, in fact dreams, visions or activities that promote these experiences are encouraged in some Islamic school of thought? Do you not wonder why Hindu's have life after death experiences that have to do with reincarnation which also agrees with their religious beliefs? There are so many documented cases of reincarnation in India. Christians also have life after death experiences that involve the christian teachings and doctrines. . . .All these various and conflicting claims are enough evidence that the life after death hypothesis is a sham. . . .

I never submitted NDE as a fact/evidence for anything, All I wanted was to hear ur opinions. They come across as delusive and not objective. If there are after-life and NDE experiences, does that not suggest a life after death?

KAG:


So nothing, then. This gross celebration of a lack of self and all its components - is this Nirvana also not a fate worse than death? - is the true face of nihilism.

It's understandable to fear death; it's not so understandable to forget that an end can focus meaning into a life.

I DEMAND of you that you explain what meaning life may have: if all life ends with the zero factor: to wit: nothingness.

For I positively assert that 0 + 1 - 1 = 0 and that this conclusively proves that a life with nothingness at both ends is conclusively purposeless, empty and meaningless, given that it refers summarily to NOTHING.

mazaje:

I just don't get this fallacious and ridiculous arguments deepsight is proposing. . . .Why does life have to be eternal for it to be meaningful when the eternal concept is only a hypothesis that has no evidence to back it up at all. . . .

This thread is not about proof of eternity. It is simply a request to understand the Purpose of the life of a man called Mazaje.

People are here and as such they need to make their lives meaningful. . . . .

1. WHY?

2. By what methods? A hired assassin who makes millions of dollars murdering politicians and retires to luxury in the Bahamas with his beloved wife has also made his life meaningful. This is incontestable.

3. Further on (2) above, the live of the assassin, his wife, his victims, and his instigators will ALL end in NOTHINGNESS – and accordingly it is inconceivable that what he has done –

a. Has any relevance whatsoever to anything

b. Is wrong or right in any sense.

The life after death does NOT give life more meaning There is no evidence to show that it does. . .

Simple reasoning shows that it does. By the simple principle of a destination’s relevance to a journey.

Where the destination is NOTHINGNESS (as you have confirmed is your view) then INELUCTABLY, the journey results in nothingness, and is as such absolutely meaningless[/b]

This is cast in iron, and is mathematically correct as well.

Again I assert that this equation –

0 + 1 – 1 = 0

SUMMARILY proves that a life with nothingness at both ends amounts mathematically and affirmatively to zero, and is as such irredeemably meaningless.

noetic17:

I never submitted NDE as a fact/evidence for anything, All I wanted was to hear your opinions. They come across as delusive and not objective. If there are after-life and NDE experiences, does that not suggest a life after death?

NDE does NOT suggest any thing about life after death, It is a natural occurrence, it has been induced artificially in the labs. . .I repeat the fact the people from very different cultures and religions ONLY "experience" life after death situations they have been indoctrinated with or life after death experiences that agrees with their religious and cultural beliefs shows that that the hypothesis is a sham. . .

Deep Sight:

This thread is not about proof of eternity. It is simply a request to understand the Purpose of the life of a man called Mazaje.

The man called Mazaje has given you the purpose of his life. . .

1. WHY?

I believe you have read it, because I have written. . .

2. By what methods? A hired assassin who makes millions of dollars murdering politicians and retires to luxury in the Bahamas with his beloved wife has also made his life meaningful. This is incontestable.

Sure. . . .

3. Further on (2) above, the live of the assassin, his wife, his victims, and his instigators will ALL end in NOTHINGNESS – and accordingly it is inconceivable that what he has done –

Sure, just as a lion that kills a gazelle and offers it unto its cubs as food, dies and ends up in nothingness. . .or a fly that lays its eggs on the back of a butterfly, as the egg grows the body of the butterfly serves as a means of sustainability for the newly formed maggot, the maggot eats its way through the flesh and other organs of the butterfly till it dies, the maggot turns into an adult fly dies and returns to nothingness. . .That is how nature operates. . . .Its a cycle that also includes violence and death. . .

a. Has any relevance whatsoever to anything

b. Is wrong or right in any sense.

Simple reasoning shows that it does. By the simple principle of a destination’s relevance to a journey.

Destination is of NO relevance to a journey. . .Making sure your journey is worthwhile is more important than the destination. In this case the destination is unknown it is only imaginary because no body has ever produced any evidence to show that that there is any evidence for human consciousness surviving bodily death . . .All hypothesis that follow are ONLY assumptions that have NO evidence at all. . .I repeat destination has nothing to do with journey, making your journey comfortable, joyous and stress free is more important than the destination. . .

Where the destination is NOTHINGNESS (as you have confirmed is your view) then INELUCTABLY, the journey results in nothingness, and is as such absolutely meaningless[/b]

FALSE. . You are just begging the question. . .The journey is a worthwhile endeavor and as such it is NOT meaningless. . .Are you saying that life is only meaningful when people believe in the after life? Your hypothesis is completely false and ridiculous because observable evidence does not support your completely baseless assertion. .I gave you an example already, I said that the people here are all atheist who mostly do not believe in an after life but the value life(human, animal and plants) and their environment MUCH more than your average Nigerian that focuses more on the after life and forgets that he has a live to live here on earth. . .Why is that so?

This is cast in iron, and is mathematically correct as well.

Again I assert that this equation –

0 + 1 – 1 = 0

SUMMARILY proves that a life with nothingness at both ends amounts mathematically and affirmatively to zero, and is as such irredeemably meaningless.

You are just trying to hard to convince yourself that your baseless and failed hypothesis carries any meaning. . . .