rhymz:

Afam and the other Guy, no need to get unneccessarily worked up and insulting,leave such behaviour to kidz like bbk/baby,sjeezy and their likes. While I understand that U guyz were trying to be objective and unbiase, your judgemental tone and hasty assumptions betrayed it. It is pointless carrying on like this is some battle to be won, admit it that the two of U started off on the wrong notion with your comments. The other guy even tried to downplay and trivialize the issue by implying that since similar incident has occured in our own country and some random neighbouring country, it should die a natural death and be given a decent burial. Need I remind U two that this is about fairness, justice and accurate reportage, not some political ideology where mere logic and political knowledge are used to explain and make arguements. When I first read about this story, the polish police spokesperson first claimed that the deceased scuffled with the policeman for his gun and in the process got shot,they even painted a picture of a hostile mob pelting them with stones without provocation, then I read another version from thesame polish police dept claiming this time, that the deceased was shot dead when the handgun of the policeman went off with the deceased pinned to the crowd and a hostile crowd trying to lynch the policeman. Now, reading all these conflicting reports only points to one fact-sb is trying so hard to distort the truth of what really happened- and that is where lies the core of the issue not all these sophist arguements that U,Afam and texazpete have been making here all the while. Even when snowdrop tried to expose and show U the folly in those claims, U pair were more interested in coming across as the most discerning of the "pack" of us that saw the murder for what it is. Yes, anyone can claim Nigerians ve the worse vices U can ever think of, it is their opinion and that in itself is open to debate but to use that as a pretext to form the basis of your arguements and make hasty assumptions and close-end arguement is cruel and myopic. The two of U make it look like objectivity is all about not taking sides with Nigeria even when there is an open case of injustice. Am even surprised that Afam of all ppl will be towing this line of arguement even after Joaana T who obviously has more and better information on the issue pointed out to U that there was neither a scuffle for the policeman's gun nor was the deceased in any flight of escape, U arrogantly continued thesame arguement and later descended to antagonism. Seriously guyz, it will cost U noting to admit it that U started off on the wrong notion and stop splitting hair. Abeg U and that Texazpete guy should slow your rolls and stop being unneccessarily combative, discernment and objectivity are the two words that ve evaded all your posts on this particular thread. At least, the two of U should respect the fact that an innocent man died here and the fact that it has some racial undertones should make anyone shudder in contempt and condemn it.

You must be silly to come to the conclusions that you have come or you are just plain stupid.

Every single post of mine on this thread was a direct consequence of the information at that time and I have no apologies to make.

You can continue to play to the gallery to impress people that is your own business.

And now any one that registers a new username and claims to be a Pole or a Nigerian in the market place should be believed even when this forum gives anyone the right to create a username and claim to be anyone living in any part of the world.

I can assure you that you may never come close to what I have done and what I continue to do to protect and defend Nigerians so better find other people to direct your baseless comments.

As a matter of fact the only reasonable comments here have been those made based on the information at hand and not those of you who clearly have stiff mindsets and bias which points towards racism as most Nigerians would rather have us believe whenever there is a problem.

@ Afam,
You need to stop embarrassing yourself.

You are starting to make me wonder how old you are, as your posts appear very childish.

I am not here to contest for who curses best with you, we can open another thread for that, stop throwing temper tantrums when somebody points out your mistakes. I agree your comments were direct consequence of the available information in the begining, but did you change your opinion when fresh reports and eye-witnesses accounts( which contradicted many of the claims in the earlier reports) were presented to you? No of course! Instead, you became combative and started looking for faults without giving these reports and accounts thesame benefits you easily gave to that of the polish police department. If there is anyone playing to the gallery here, it is you, Afam; you are trying too hard to appear unbiased and discerning, just because most of us are of the porpular opinion that there is prejudice in the case does not render our arguement useless or playing to the gallery. I understand you don't follow porpular opinions or better still, "you don't move with the crowd" but also have it in mind that when such opinions is based on facts, you don't have much of a choice than to follow it even if it makes you come across as whining or ranting, facts are facts, it does not matter who or what they support.
Afam, whether you like to admit it or not, you 4ck'd this one up! Period!

GenBuhari:

@ Afam,
You need to stop embarrassing yourself.

You are starting to make me wonder how old you are, as your posts appear very childish.

And the scammer who uses someone else's name has the audacity to post something here? You are merely a criminal in my opinion so your opinions belong to the trash can.

rhymz:

I am not here to contest for who curses best with you, we can open another thread for that, stop throwing temper tantrums when somebody points out your mistakes. I agree your comments were direct consequence of the available information in the begining, but did you change your opinion when fresh reports and eye-witnesses accounts( which contradicted many of the claims in the earlier reports) were presented to you? No of course! Instead, you became combative and started looking for faults without giving these reports and accounts thesame  benefits you easily gave to that of the polish police department. If there is anyone playing to the gallery here, it is you, Afam; you are trying too hard to appear unbiased and discerning, just because most of us are of the porpular opinion that there is prejudice in the case does not render our arguement useless or playing to the gallery. I understand you don't follow porpular opinions or better still, "you don't move with the crowd" but also have it in mind that when such opinions is based on facts, you don't have much of a choice than to follow it even  if it makes you come across as whining or ranting, facts are facts, it does not matter who or what they support.
Afam, whether you like to admit it or not, you 4ck'd this one up! Period!

This is what you get when you dig a hole for yourself.

What are my positions you quarrel with? List them instead of trying to muddle up issues.

From initial reports I stated the following

1. Why was the person running when he had nothing to hide?

2. Was he randomly picked out and shot? Why him?


From subsequent reports by people who registered on this forum solely to discuss this my positions were

1. Why risk your life when an armed man is threatening to shoot if you don't leave?

2. There is a difference between bravery and unnecessary risk.


On either scenario, regardless of the correctness or otherwise of the reports at hand I prayed for the guy's soul to rest in peace. I must not join you guys in your "whites are racists" mantra if that is what you want.

I had previously advised Nigerians who feel that their host nations were racists to come back home.

You guys are bloody hypocrites and sycophants and yet you have no shame. If you think that playing to the gallery will get you anywhere in life continue with it.

You and people that think like you are doing everything possible to arrive at a predetermined position.

I am responding accordingly to issues based on information at hand and this is 100% better than your bias and mindset towards foreigners.

Exactly my point, you were at ease puncturing holes at any arguement that points to racial prejudice but said nothing about the inaccuracies presented in the information you claimed you were working with. Your swift condemnation of the deceased man's actions without doing thesame to the brutality of the law enforcement agent only shows your biase and my earlier submission that you are trying too hard to look unbiase and discerning. You have wrongly reduced every opposing arguement to yours as hate for foreigners, exactly why I said you started off with the wrong notion. I still would have seen thesame prejudice if the deceased guy was asian so quit equating the issue to us against foreigners and making hasty baseless assumptions.

rhymz:

Exactly my point, you were at ease puncturing holes at any arguement that points to racial prejudice but said nothing about the inaccuracies presented in the information you claimed you were working with. Your swift condemnation of the deceased man's actions without doing thesame to the brutality of the law enforcement agent only shows your biase and my earlier submission that you are trying too hard to look unbiase and discerning. You have wrongly reduced every opposing arguement to yours as hate for foreigners, exactly why I said you started off with the wrong notion. I still would have seen thesame prejudice if the deceased guy was asian so quit equating the issue to us against foreigners and making hasty baseless assumptions.

Obviously, you have comprehension problems.

A report was presented and I asked relevant questions based on the report and you think the questions were not necessary?

I asked you to list the positions you have problem with so I can address them one by one but I guess you cannot hence your style of muddling up issues and creating diversions.

State them if you can or hide your head in shame.

I have said earlier that I would not reply to Afam's posts, but I see that I have to break this promise. Afam states:

And now any one that registers a new username and claims to be a Pole or a Nigerian in the market place should be believed even when this forum gives anyone the right to create a username and claim to be anyone living in any part of the world.

Already texazzpete "was not convinced if I was a Pole". So texazzpete and Afam seriously doubt if I am a Pole. I am mightily amused by these doubts as to my Polishness. Do you think that it is improbable for a Pole to write critically about his/her country ? Or perhaps you find that a Pole cannot be possibly able to write in reasonably correct English ? Or perhaps I should begin to write my posts in Polish so as to make you believe that I am Polish ? I based all of my claims on articles and video recordings, I posted links to these articles and videos. I did not ask "to be believed". As I have said in two of my earlier posts, my e-mail address is currently visible in my profile. It is my genuine address, the genuine address of a genuine Polish woman working at a genuine Polish university. Did you really think that my posts were written by some bored Nigerian joker ?! You must be very mistrustful of other people ,

Niektórzy Nigeryjczycy są bardzo podejrzliwi - that is, "some Nigerians are very distrustful", in Polish !

Joanna.T:

I have said earlier that I would not reply to Afam's posts, but I see that I have to break this promise. Afam states:

Already texazzpete "was not convinced if I was a Pole". So texazzpete and Afam seriously doubt if I am a Pole. I am mightily amused by these doubts as to my Polishness. Do you think that it is improbable for a Pole to write critically about his/her country ? Or perhaps you find that a Pole cannot be possibly able to write in  reasonably correct English ? Or perhaps I should begin to write my posts in Polish so as to make you believe that I am Polish ? I based all of my claims on articles and video recordings, I posted links to these articles and videos. I did not ask "to be believed". As I have said in two of my earlier posts, my e-mail address is currently visible in my profile. It is my genuine address, the genuine address of a genuine Polish woman working at a genuine Polish university. Did you really think that my posts were written by some bored Nigerian joker ?! You must be very mistrustful of other people ,

Niektórzy Nigeryjczycy są bardzo podejrzliwi - that is, "some Nigerians are very distrustful", in Polish !

My problem with people like you is that you think you are right and others wrong when they don't agree with you.

You could be an Indian for all I care.

I responded to reports as the came in based on the merits and demerits of the reports.

Now, because I did not abuse or curse the Polish police from the beginning I have done wrong, right?

Unfortunately, our backgrounds and experiences differ so we may never see issues from the same angle.

While you are interested in "what happened" I am interested in "why it happened" and "how it can be prevented in future" so that the living will learn from it.

You can play to the gallery for all I care. You may choose to sensationalize the issue to serve your motive, it is your kettle of fish not mine.

And yes, it is very possible that you are not Polish because this is an online forum that anyone can register with any name and claim any nationality. This is a fact and I am a respecter of facts.

And by the way it is 100% better for some Nigerians to be distrustful than for some Polish policemen to be gunning down unarmed Nigerians!

rhymz:

Exactly my point, you were at ease puncturing holes at any arguement that points to racial prejudice but said nothing about the inaccuracies presented in the information you claimed you were working with.

There was absolutely no hard evidence that any racially motivated abuse by the Police had taken place. Any cries of racism from you and your fellow facebook patriots were mere conjecture at that point. Joanna T's statements were mere hearsay.
Please point to the 'inaccuracies' in the initial statement released by the Police that should have set off any alarm bells at the time this thread was opened.

You and GenBuhari need to sharpen your comprehension skills if you aim to be of any use to anyone.

Polish people are struggling and eating the crumbs that fell off english man's table and,yet nigerians are taking refuge in place like tha,ignorance.

Nigeria is richer than poland in everyway.

Joanna.T:

I have said earlier that I would not reply to Afam's posts, but I see that I have to break this promise. Afam states:

Already texazzpete "was not convinced if I was a Pole". So texazzpete and Afam seriously doubt if I am a Pole. I am mightily amused by these doubts as to my Polishness. Do you think that it is improbable for a Pole to write critically about his/her country ? Or perhaps you find that a Pole cannot be possibly able to write in  reasonably correct English ? Or perhaps I should begin to write my posts in Polish so as to make you believe that I am Polish ? I based all of my claims on articles and video recordings, I posted links to these articles and videos. I did not ask "to be believed". As I have said in two of my earlier posts, my e-mail address is currently visible in my profile. It is my genuine address, the genuine address of a genuine Polish woman working at a genuine Polish university. Did you really think that my posts were written by some bored Nigerian joker ?! You must be very mistrustful of other people ,

Niektórzy Nigeryjczycy są bardzo podejrzliwi - that is, "some Nigerians are very distrustful", in Polish !

No. frankly, i thought you an impostor because your arguments - and your response to myself and Afam's perfectly logical position - did not show an intellect worthy of a PhD holder in the University of Wroclaw's Sociology Institute.

Also, it's one thing to be critical of the Polish government. It's another to be excessively critical and almost completely negative about the country you claim.
Statements like

Joanna.T:

Well, I think that I'm a very, very atypical Pole ,  I am often amused when I read what foreigners say or write about Polish mentality etc. because many of the attitudes considered as typically Polish (e.g. strong prejudice against Russians and the idea that it is always beautiful to die fighting the enemy, even when there's not the remotest chance for victory and thousands of civilians are killed in reprisals) are completely alien to me.

Indicate that most Poles are of the evil, racist type you're condemning here. Isn't that generalization?


Finally, your piece on 'undocumented immigrants' or illegal immigrants and deportation was mildly entertaining, but not very bright.

You do seem to be legit, anyway. But try not to let passion get in the way of reason, ok?

@Joanna T.
Another thought just struck me. If you're so convinced that Poland and the majority of Poles are hostile to blacks (especially those without proper permits), why are you a sworn opponent of deportation of illegals? I should have thought you'd be delighted for the Polish police to ship back all those maltreated black people to their homeland (more often than not, Nigeria)?

Please answer.

@Topic
Now that eyewitness accounts are beginning to emerge that discredit the initial official story, I hope a thorough investigation is carried out and any guilty party brought to book.
May the guy's soul rest in peace.

I think I am gonna puke
You are a disgrace!

texazzpete:

@Topic
Now that eyewitness accounts are beginning to emerge that discredit the initial official story, I hope a thorough investigation is carried out and any guilty party brought to book.
May the guy's soul rest in peace.

@ texazzpete

No. frankly, i thought you an impostor because your arguments - and your response to myself and Afam's perfectly logical position - did not show an intellect worthy of a PhD holder in the University of Wroclaw's Sociology Institute.

Dear texazzpete, I am replying you with a huge smile on my face. First of all thank you for finally acknowledging that you no longer consider me as someone who only claims to be a Pole and that you have even learnt that I was a "PhD holder in the University of Wroclaw's Sociology Institute". You consider that my arguments and response to your position "did not show an intellect worthy of a <PhD holder in the University of Wroclaw's Sociology Institute>". I can tell you that (fortunately for me !) many academics (and I am not speaking only of Polish academics) are of a quite different opinion on my capacities of argumentation and critical thinking. By the way, there is even a Nigerian professor among them.

Independently of that, I would like to learn which of my arguments you find unsatisfactory and which of my claims you find unfounded. I and you have simply different views on some issues. I did not find your and Afam's position "perfectly logical" and I am ready to defend my arguments. I think that you both tend to neglect the sociological dimensions of reality and to see the world as much simpler than it actually is.

Also, it's one thing to be critical of the Polish government. It's another to be excessively critical and almost completely negative about the country you claim.

No, texazzpete, you are mistaken. I am not "excessively critical" and  "almost completely negative" about my country. On the contrary, I am always ready to defend Poland's and Poles' name when they are unjustly attacked. My patriotism is a very critical one, but it is still a patriotism. There are many kinds of patriotism. To give you an example, I have never claimed on this forum that the policeman "murdered" Maxwell Itoya in cold blood or that Polish police systematically murders migrants, as some young Poles claim. I certainly don't claim that all or most Poles are racist or xenophobic.

You say that a passage from one of the posts "indicates that most Poles are of the evil, racist type". Texazzpete, you have misunderstood this post. I say there, among other things, that many foreigners think that Poles have a strong prejudice against Russians. I don't claim that this is the truth and I know many Poles who love Russian language and culture !

If you're so convinced that Poland and the majority of Poles are hostile to blacks (especially those without proper permits), why are you a sworn opponent of deportation of illegals? I should have thought you'd be delighted for the Polish police to ship back all those maltreated black people to their homeland (more often than not, Nigeria)?

First of all, as I have already said, I don't claim that "the majority of Poles are hostile to blacks". I don't claim that blacks are "maltreated" in Poland, although many of them have to face insults and sometimes even physical assaults. Secondly, the black people who live in Poland apparently prefer to stay in this country than to come back to Africa, despite the racism of some Poles.  Many of them have founded families here, e.g. it seems that many of the Nigerian street vendors in Warsaw have Polish wives. Although racism is frequent and deeply ingrained in Poland, the blacks living in my country are visibly ready to face this racism in their daily lives. It is their choice which I fully respect, although I would not like to live in Poland if I were black. Thirdly, I will always be against forced deportation of any people, be them undocumented migrants or not, even if life is very difficult for them in their host country.

I will give you a good example from Africa. In Angola, Congolese diamond pickers are disdained by many, many consider them as dirty and inferior to Angolans. However, these Congolese are ready to face the strong prejudice of Angolans. Migrants everywhere in the world often face hatred and contempt on the side of the citizens of their host countries, but it does not mean that they prefer to come back to their own country than to stay in the host country.

GenBuhari:

I think I am gonna puke
You are a disgrace!

Aren't you supposed to be out there canvassing for votes for your master, Buhari?

@Joanna T
Fair enough, i was a bit too critical of you in my last post.

Joanna.T:

Thirdly, I will always be against forced deportation of any people, be them undocumented migrants or not, even if life is very difficult for them in their host country.

However your point on forced deportation for illegal immigrants is rather naive. Laws are put in place for a purpose. You'll see a clear correlation between illegal immigrants and crime if you carry out a study.
The principle is that people with a valid reason to be in any country shouldn't have too much trouble legalizing it.

If the immigrants have married Polish women, why are they not given legal status? Is that peculiar to Polish law?

Joanna.T:

I did not find your and Afam's position "perfectly logical" and I am ready to defend my arguments. I think that you both tend to neglect the sociological dimensions of reality and to see the world as much simpler than it actually is.

1. You don't have to find the position perfectly logical for it to be perfectly logical, just remember this. The correctness or otherwise of a position has nothing to do with your agreement or otherwise. Facts are facts and they don't change.

2. Trust me the world is simple but people like you will introduce all sorts of issues to make it appear complex based on what you want to achieve.

For the sake of emphasis especially for those that did not follow my points I will summarize them below

Initial reports claimed the guy was shot while he was being chased by the police.

My position - Why was he running if he had nothing to hide? (Perfect logical question).

Further reports claimed he was not the person that had problems with the police that he went to challenge the policeman who had issues with another black man and the policeman told him to leave or he will be shot and he refused to leave until he was shot.

My position - Why dare an armed man be it a policeman or an armed robber? As we debate this the man that had issues with the policeman is alive and yet the person that went to intercede is dead. Does this not call for carefulness in dealing with the law? It is not as if the guy was randomly picked up and shot.

So while some of you continue to play to the gallery by sensationalizing the issue I still maintain that the "how" and "why" the shooting took place should be the focus at least for the benefit of the living so as not to repeat the same mistake in future.

No one is debating whether the man was shot by the policeman in error or not right now as reports have cleared that part. What are the lessons learned here?

Dear Afam,

I will reply to your post, although I am doing this with sadness.

And yes, it is very possible that you are not Polish because this is an online forum that anyone can register with any name and claim any nationality.

If you still consider that "it is very possible that I am not Polish", please look at my profile. I would not have been able to register here with the e-mail address of someone else. If you don't believe it, ask one of the moderators. If you wish, send me an e-mail to this address and I will certainly reply.

And by the way it is 100% better for some Nigerians to be distrustful than for some Polish policemen to be gunning down unarmed Nigerians!

Didn't you see that it was said in joke ? I am sorry if it hurt you in some way.

My problem with people like you is that you think you are right and others wrong when they don't agree with you.

No, it is not at all true, Afam. I am very open-minded and usually ready to change my views (although there are some exceptions, e.g. I know that I will never support the death penalty). I know that we can learn a lot from others, especially from those who come from a different background. I was willing to continue our discussion, although our views differed. I only stopped when your tone became unkind (or at least seemed unkind to me) because I don't like it at all when people begin to be unkind to each other. It is possible to disagree with someone else without becoming unpleasant to him/her. However, I partly understand your earlier reaction to my posts, you had probably thought that I supported all the views and claims of all others who have a different view from yours, which is not the case. E.g. I would never call anyone stupid or unpatriotic.

Now, because I did not abuse or curse the Polish police from the beginning I have done wrong, right?

Did I "abuse or curse the Polish police" in any of my posts ?

You can play to the gallery for all I care. You may choose to sensationalize the issue to serve your motive, it is your kettle of fish not mine.

I am certainly not "playing to the gallery", but only saying what I think and know on this issue. I have no hidden motive and certainly don't wish to "sensationalize the issue".

While you are interested in "what happened" I am interested in "why it happened" and "how it can be prevented in future" so that the living will learn from it.

You are mistaken. Like you, I am also very interested in "why it happened" and "how it can be prevented".

@ Afam and texazzpete,

I will certainly reply to the posts you have just written, but today I cannot stay on this forum any longer. I have to finish the article I have mentioned (it must be ready on Tuesday) and prepare for the courses I am giving tomorrow at my university. I am very happy to see that you have become more open to dialogue. Thank you and all the best to you  and all others who are visiting this forum.

@ texazzpete

If the immigrants have married Polish women, why are they not given legal status? Is that peculiar to Polish law?

It seems that all the street vendors who had been arrested on 23 May stay legally in Poland. Some of them even have Polish citizenship.

However your point on forced deportation for illegal immigrants is rather naive. Laws are put in place for a purpose.

To me deportation of undocumented migrants is a very inhumane and degrading procedure which causes great suffering. It is even more inhumane in the case of people who have been staying in in the host country for many years. No human being is "illegal". I think that people should have the right to live where they wish. Some consider that it would mean that the most developed countries would be "swamped" by migrants from the developing world. I think that this is a much too alarmist position. To take an example, Poland's GDP per capita is more than twice lower than the one of the UK. However, only about 1.7 % of Poles have migrated to the UK when the latter country opened its borders to the citizens of Eastern European EU members.

Moreover, the societies of the most developed countries are ageing rapidly and have low birth rates, and therefore simply need immigrants from non-Western countries. This need will increase with time. Let me quote Kofi Annan:

There can be no doubt that European societies need immigrants. Europeans are living longer and having fewer children. Without immigration, the population of the soon-to-be twenty-five Member States of the EU will drop, from about 450 million now to under 400 million in 2050.

Source: "Why Europe needs an immigration strategy", http://www.un.org/News/ossg/sg/stories/sg-29jan2004.htm

Immigration from the non-Western countries is limited by the European countries not because migrants are a burden to their host societies, but because lots of Europeans are profoundly prejudiced against non-white people (especially if the former happen to be Muslim).

@ texazzpete

You'll see a clear correlation between illegal immigrants and crime if you carry out a study.

Could you give me any examples of any unbiased, serious studies proving such a correlation ? I think that it is only a myth exploited by racists and xenophobists.

The principle is that people with a valid reason to be in any country shouldn't have too much trouble legalizing it.

No, it is not true. E.g. in France there are plenty of undocumented migrants who have been working in this country for years, but are unable to legalize their stay. And in my opinion there is no need for having a "valid reason" to be in any country. Paedophiles and other sex tourists from Western countries can travel to poorer countries without any difficulty - do they have a more "valid" reason to stay in the countries they visit than people who simply want to earn their living in a country richer than their own ?

@ Afam

No one is debating whether the man was shot by the policeman in error or not right now as reports have cleared that part.

It is not true that "reports have cleared that part". It is still not known why the policeman fired the shot.

@@@@@@@@
i always know the poles are so damn divisive

ba stards

@ rhymz

I liked very much all three of your posts.

Thank you very much and my best wishes to you !

Joanna.T:

@ thameamead

Thank you very much ! Thank you also for having mentioned the very sad case of Frank Ogboru. "Research shows that black people are disproportionately likely to suffer restraint-related deaths", wrote Laura Smith in an article on this case published by "The Guardian" ("Investigation launched as man dies during arrest", 28 September 2006, http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/sep/28/laurasmith). It is unfortunately possible that many European policemen behave more brutally towards black men than towards other men, which may be influenced by a racist image of black men (who are viewed by racists as more aggressive and dangerous than other men). The existing stereotypes on black men may at least partly explain the behaviour of the Polish policeman.

h

The British Police are no different to the Poland Police, Mr Olaseni Lewis, was forcibly restrained by up to seven police officers which was witnessed by the nurses who logged it as a violent restraint, sadly Mr lewis died, it was reported by the Evening Standard, the officers involved have not bn suspended , i have seen the police man-handle black and asian men a couple of times, black and asian men are no angels but i would like the police to deal with black and asian men the exact way they deal with white men. A neighbour of the deceased man told the Evening standard he was quiet and was no trouble maker, he was no gang-member, he had just finished his masters @ Kingston University. RIP Mr Olaseni Lewis.