jesus.:

according to u above the bible 'god' did create a physical universe,but the scientist never did rather in their heart not so? Who is greater?

The message here is that the scientists can do what the bible god did and can do, because it is all in the mind. This makes the scientists as great as the bible god. Minds create universes and whatever is it that are in them. The bible god "himself" was a scientist just like any other.

Jenwitemi:

The message here is that the scientists can do what the bible god did and can do, because it is all in the mind. This makes the scientists as great as the bible god. Minds create universes and whatever is it that are in them. The bible god "himself" was a scientist just like any other.

i have no issue with 'god' being a scientist. The physical universe and man are yet to be created by scientists either in mind/reality. Yet the 'god' of the bible as a scientist created real things. So god is greater than scientist in that regard

jesus.:

The physical universe&man are yet to be created by scientists either in mind/reality.

While the biblical god may have belonged to a race with vastly more advanced science and technological knowledge, that does not mean that we do not have that same creative capability to create universes, because we do, we are just a late starter. It is just a matter of time before we do create universees that people can go into and that will seem real to them. The indications of this capabilities are all around you.

jesus.:

Yet the 'god' of the bible as a scientist created real things. So god is greater than scientist in that regard

This is really not about comparisons, about who is greater than whom. That is totally irrelevant to this topic. The main thing is that we can create from nothing too.

Jenwitemi:

While the biblical god may have belonged to a race with vastly more advanced science and technological knowledge, that does not mean that we do not have that same creative capability to create universes, because we do, we are just a late starter. It is just a matter of time before we do create universees that people can go into and that will seem real to them. The indications of this capabilities are all around you.

Lets wait till u do 'since the indications are all around' but before then 'god' is still the best scientist

Jenwitemi:

This is really not about comparisons, about who is greater than whom. That is totally irrelevant to this topic. The main thing is that we can create from nothing too.

Wake up now, u started the comparison by saying 'god' is a scientist like other scientist

Jenwitemi:

The message here is that the scientists can do what the bible god did and can do, because it is all in the mind. This makes the scientists as great as the bible god. Minds create universes and whatever is it that are in them. The bible god "himself" was a scientist just like any other.

WTH are u saying? didnt u start the comparison? What i did was to tell u that one scientist is greater than other scientists

Why would God need to be a scientist? what effort or labour is he expending? he is suppose to be omnipotent.

Kay 17:

Why would God need to be a scientist? what effort or labour is he expending? he is suppose to be omnipotent.

I think jenwitemi should tell us why he feels 'god' is a scientist.Im simply playing along with him/her

Jenwitemi:

I think that we are ignoring the BTS factor here, folks. By BTS factor, i mean the "B[/b]ehind [b]T[/b]he [b]S[/b]cene" factor. What is the "behind the scene" of this universe? The BB and the concept of a creator confirms that already. If their is a creator of something (the universe in this case), then there has to be a BTS of that something.

The BTS of the universe will, of course, contain the irrefutable informations on the process that set in motion and brought the universe in which we exist, into existence. But since we are all locked within this universe, how can we look outside of it to see the process of creation or get the identities of the creator(s)? We can't, meaning we are very limited in knowing how it was done.

And because we can't, all our subsequent arguements will be based on mere speculations, and that also includes the biblical creation myths, yes, myth[b]s because there are two of them in the genesis. Interestingly enough, one of the two creation myths showed creation out of nothing(or exnihilo, as viaro puts it), and the other showed creation out of something that already is( creation of Adam and Eve). That there are two creation stories in the book of genesis is irrefutable, so let no one even bother to argue about that.

I was ripping out audios from some video files a while back and something was happening that got me thinking a bit. I set the output of these audio file to my desktop and started the ripping. Then i leaned back and watched the audio files materialize one after the other seemingly out of nothing on my desktop. I found that very interesting, even if i was not surprised.

Why was i not amazed witnessing audio files seemingly materializing from nothing? You guessed it, the BTS factor. I am the person behind the scene and i knew exactly what the process was to make this materializing happen. I was the person using the software to make the process possible. Now imagine the desktop as a world in which sentient beings are living and witnessing all these materializing. Ofcourse they will be amazed! Why is that? Because they have no way of having the knowledge of the BTS to see who is causing the materializing of all these aufio files and how that person is doing it, so they are all left with all sorts of speculations.

Now, remove the desktop and put the universe we live in and you will all see quite clearly that we are all in such a situation right now playing with all kinds of speculations and using them as arguementation bases. Ridiculous, ain't it? We know way too little of the BTS of the universe to prove anything empirically. Unless somebody wants to argue that there is no behind the scene to this universe. If that is the case, then that person need to provide evidence to back that up.

Brilliant - but your succeeding post is appalling. . . .

Jenwitemi:

The main thing is that we can create from nothing too.

I POSITIVELY DEMAND OF YOU -

1. THAT YOU DEFINE FOR ME WHAT THE TERM "NOTHING" MEANS OR REFERS TO, AND -

2. THAT YOU STATE TO ME WITH LOGICAL AND EMPIRICAL DETAIL HOW ANYTHING MAY ARISE FROM, OR BE CREATED FROM NOTHING.

FOR I ASSERT TO YOU THAT 0 + 0 = 0, AND THAT THIS CONCLUSIVELY PROVES THAT SOMETHING MAY NEVER ARISE FROM NOTHING.

Deep Sight:

Brilliant - but your succeeding post is appalling. . . .

Good bless u DS. i didnt notice jenwitemi had a nice post,better than the appalling ones. But i really like to know if jenwitemi is a theist or an atheist

jesus.:

Good bless u DS. i didnt notice jenwitemi had a nice post,better than the appalling ones. But i really like to know if jenwitemi is a theist or an atheist

Why do you want to know that, and why does that matter?

Deep Sight:

I POSITIVELY DEMAND OF YOU -

   1. THAT YOU DEFINE FOR ME WHAT THE TERM "NOTHING" MEANS OR REFERS TO, AND  -

   2. THAT YOU STATE TO ME WITH LOGICAL AND EMPIRICAL DETAIL HOW ANYTHING MAY ARISE FROM, OR BE CREATED FROM NOTHING.

FOR I ASSERT TO YOU THAT 0 + 0 = 0, AND THAT THIS CONCLUSIVELY PROVES THAT SOMETHING MAY NEVER ARISE FROM NOTHING.

I have not the intention of being drawn into the definition thing. . . useless endeavour. Nothingness is an illusion, anyway. Everything comes from already existing somethings, which in turn originated from already existing somethings. . .  The BTS factor.

God creating this universe from socalled  "nothingness" is determined only by definitions of nothingness based on our own limited perspective. If God created this universe out of nothing, then something must have created God out of nothing also, and it goes on and on backwards, you know the drill.

Kay 17:

Why would God need to be a scientist?

Why not? The word "God" (which is a cheap toro kobo term nowadays) does not in any way negate a creator from further search for knowledge. Anybody and their dogs and cats can qualify as gods, with small or with capital G, from our very lowly human perspectives.

Kay 17:

what effort or labour is he expending?

How can we know that? We need to go behind the scene to know that.

Kay 17:

he is suppose to be omnipotent.

Who says that whoever created this universe has to be omnipotent? All that is needed is enough knowledge and you have yourself universes. We assign omnipotence and omniscience to anything that is above our own momentary intellectual and spiritual capabilities, with emphasis on momentary because we are growing from moment to moment.

Jenwitemi:

Why do you want to know that, and why does that matter?

cos i would like to debate with u on ur belief

jesus.:

Lets wait till u do 'since the indications are all around' but before then 'god' is still the best scientist

Okay, if that makes you happy.

jesus.:

Wake up now, u started the comparison by saying 'god' is a scientist like other scientist

Yes, i did, but i never meant it as a "who-is-greater-than-who" comparison. That came from your own misinterpretation.

jesus.:

WTH are u saying? didnt u start the comparison? What i did was to tell u that one scientist is greater than other scientists

Exactly. Who is greater than whom is irrelevant. The fact remains that we have scientists today who are also genetic engineers like the character(s) behind the biblical God mythology, and that is a big deal.

jesus.:

cos i would like to debate with u on your belief

I don't have beliefs. I don't need beliefs. I take each theme one at a time on it's own merit. I don't need to know your belief before i discuss anything with you, so why should you want to know mine? You are free to counter any of my post based on it's content. You don't need to put me in a category before you do that.

Deep Sight:

Brilliant - but your succeeding post is appalling. . . .

State why. Maybe you misunderstood me, because i have a multidimensional approach to the way i respond to some of these posts.

Jenwitemi:

I don't have beliefs. I don't need beliefs. I take each theme one at a time on it's own merit. I don't need to know your belief before i discuss anything with you, so why should you want to know mine? You are free to counter any of my post based on it's content. You don't need to put me in a category before you do that.

ok. Do u believe that the universe we find our selves now have a creator other than man?

jesus.:

ok. Do u believe that the universe we find our selves now have a creator other than man?

Creator? Yes. I don't know what you mean by, "other than man", though. Mind expanding?

Jenwitemi:

Creator? Yes. I don't know what you mean by, "other than man", though. Mind expanding?

i.e created by a being greater than man? Do u believe such?

jesus.:

i.e created by a being greater than man? Do u believe such?

Yes.

Jenwitemi:

Yes.

Any idea of who such a being is?

jesus.:

Any idea of who such a being is?

Who cares? Why is identifying who that being is a relevant and important requirement or endeavour to my existence and experience? I don't really care who the being is. It is not important for me to know. I just get on with my existence and experiencing in this reality. The creator (whoever it is) can either remain in the background and observe, or go do other things for all i care. Identifying the creator, or giving it names adds nothing either to my existence, or to my experiences. I knew it's identity prior to coming here, and i will remember again when i log out of this reality, meaning when i die.

Jenwitemi:

I have not the intention of being drawn into the definition thing. . . useless endeavour. Nothingness is an illusion, anyway. [size=16pt]Everything comes from already existing somethings, which in turn originated from already existing somethings. . . The BTS factor.[/size]

Great. And this positively destroys your previous assertion that man may create "out of nothing."

You contradict yourself.

Deep Sight:

Great. And this positively destroys your previous assertion that man may create "out of nothing."

You contradict yourself.

Deep Sight, i deliberately did that to show you guys that debating on a theme that is purely based on speculation is not to be taken seriously. The contradiction was done in full knowledge because on a topic like this i can contradict myself one million times over. Why? Because the entire theme is based in it's entirety on speculation. The BTS factor is unknown and will remain so till we are all gone from here. I mean, what the bleep does any of us know? Lighten up, man. You take your position with all them equations too seriously. What do you actually know, really? That is why i can contradict myself as many times as i choose, my guy.To tell you the truth, i am just messing about with this topic. I do not take it that seriously because i don't know anything for sure.

What is nothingness? Is there a fixed and absolute meaning to the word? The definition of the word is based on our limited understanding which is vastly inadequate. There was a time when the vacuum was believed to have nothing within it, we know better now.

In my own view, though, no one can create anything out of nothing, not even GOD. God is a something, hence there has to be something behind the "somethingness" of God. If you think i am talking rubbish, then prove otherwise.

Created
June 24, 2010

"Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him."(Isaiah 43:7)

For more . . . .

Jenwitemi:

OLAADEGBU link=topic=451756.msg6117294#msg6117294 date=1275178407:

A group of scientists, got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God.  They picked one scientist to go and tell God that they no longer needed Him.

God listened patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist finished, God said, "Very well!  How about this?  Let's have a man-making contest."

To which the man replied, "Okay, great!"

But God added, "Now we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and gathered a handful of dust.

God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no.  You have to make your own dust out of nothing!"

The scientists then said, "okay, we will do it like you did it and create out own universes in our minds so that we can have all the dusts we need. How about that?"
[s]The bible god answered, "ye are indeed too clever for me. I need to create dumber humans." [/s]

the bible God answered, "be my guest . . . start now!

OLAADEGBU:

Created
June 24, 2010

"Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him."(Isaiah 43:7)

For more . . . .

[size=13pt]Don't see why you are up in arms against Obama, afterall God made and all gays for his Glory and Punish them for His Pleasure  talk about a (Sado- Masochist)
[/size]

beloveeed:

The scientists then said, "okay, we will do it like you did it and create out own universes in our minds so that we can have all the dusts we need. How about that?"
[s]The bible god answered, "ye are indeed too clever for me. I need to create dumber humans." [/s]

the bible God answered, "be my guest . . . start now!

You got the gist, till now they are still scratching their bald heads thinking where they are going to start from.

mrmayor:

[size=13pt]Don't see why you are up in arms against Obama, afterall God made and all gays for his Glory and Punish them for His Pleasure  talk about a (Sado- Masochist)
[/size]

The last time I read it was that God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

[img width=500 height=500]http://www.answersingenesis.org/assets/images/media/cartoons/after-eden/20000731.gif[/img]

@ Ola,

OLAADEGBU:

The last time I read it was that God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

[img width=500 height=500]http://www.answersingenesis.org/assets/images/media/cartoons/after-eden/20000731.gif[/img]

[size=14pt]Last time I check God (sic) created Adam and Eve, Steve and Johnny Bravo, Xena and Gina all for his pleasure, from the mothers stomach he knew them, they were all wonderfully and fearfully made ( BTW Fearful of what?)
[/size]

[img width=500 height=500]http://www.answersingenesis.org/assets/images/media/cartoons/after-eden/20000703.gif[/img]