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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? (3263 Views)
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Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by frank317: 6:26pm On Jul 07, 2018 |
johnydon22: Looking at the world as we know it, we can confidently say morality is subjective. Has this fact made it arbitrary? no. The reason why the world isn't a perfect place and people trying to improve on the past is because of the subjectivity of morality. If morality was objective (as in came from the creator) then humans would have been perfect. A child wouldn't need to learn. And people who default will get instant punishment. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by festwiz(m): 8:26pm On Jul 07, 2018 |
johnydon22:It all boils down to the society you belong to and it's laws. 2 Likes |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by urheme: 9:37pm On Jul 07, 2018 |
johnydon22: There are positive morality that are generally termed objective but however acceptability of moral norms is limited to a territorial jurisdiction. There are legislated morality in some jurisdictions which may not be acceptable in another jurisdiction. peoples established customs and traditions made morality a subjective term. |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by Evangkatsoulis: 9:41pm On Jul 07, 2018 |
frank317:why wouldn't a child need to learn? |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by frank317: 10:53pm On Jul 07, 2018 |
Evangkatsoulis: Because everyone knows once they are born what is acceptable and what is not. Most people who propagate the objectivity of morality are of the view that morality is given directly by the creator and everyone instantly knows what is right or what is wrong once he is born and he is aware of his environment. This eliminates that learning aspect of morality |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by orisa37: 11:35pm On Jul 07, 2018 |
Nature prescribes Morality. Nature is Subjective. Morality is Objective. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by dalaman: 12:04am On Jul 08, 2018 |
orisa37: False, if nature prescribes morality then morality wouldn't be learned. We won't be teaching our kids the difference between right and wrong if it is something natural like crying or sleeping. We dont teach our kids how to cry or sleep, because its natural. Parents have to spend a lot of their time teaching their kids about morality because it isn't natural. Morality is a human creation. 2 Likes |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by johnydon22(m): 8:34am On Jul 08, 2018 |
orisa37: How is nature subjective? |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by johnydon22(m): 8:36am On Jul 08, 2018 |
dalaman: Some actions are intuitive. And morality could also be traced to evolutionary origins |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by dalaman: 8:37am On Jul 08, 2018 |
johnydon22: Sure, but but many moral actions have to be learned 4 Likes |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by johnydon22(m): 8:38am On Jul 08, 2018 |
urheme:What makes them positive? Subjectivity would have some say it's negative. Society then enforces morality. Good. So if there are no societies, nothing can really be said to be bad or good. Yes? |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by orisa37: 8:43am On Jul 08, 2018 |
God is I AM THAT I AM-SUBJECT-NATURE-MOTHER-FATHER-CREATOR-SUBJECTIVE-AL MIGHTY-RIGHTEOUSNESS. Satan is ME MYSELF-ALL BLOODY-CREATED-OBJECT-OBJECTIVITY-CHATTELS-FIXTURES-SELFISHNESS. SUBJECTIVITY CREATES, PRESCRIBES, VALUES OR WANTS, DEMANDS OBJECTIVITY. This is Preaching not teaching English Language. |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by johnydon22(m): 9:29am On Jul 08, 2018 |
dalaman: We agree on that |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by orisa37: 9:41am On Jul 08, 2018 |
johnydon22:. I have answered this question this morning. Please check the system. |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by johnydon22(m): 10:00am On Jul 08, 2018 |
orisa37: . Ok. Sorry I even asked |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by orisa37: 2:27pm On Jul 08, 2018 |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by urheme: 3:46pm On Jul 09, 2018 |
johnydon22: Morality is positive if effect is given to it by an enactment. On the second note I agree with you, society spell out what is morally acceptable not individuals, morality must strike at the collective conscience of the people. Johnydon22 is bin a while. |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by johnydon22(m): 4:17pm On Jul 28, 2018 |
urheme:What if an action is not positive but is collectively agreed on by the society? So what we term moral is more so social acceptability?
Yes my brother. How have you been? |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by budaatum: 4:29pm On Jul 28, 2018 |
An Essay On Objective Vs Subjective Morality |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by ScienceWatch: 7:59pm On Jul 28, 2018 |
Gggg102:Sir, would it be appropriate here to consider the moral stand point of an atheist serial killer from USA. it may be instructive to hear what Ted Bundy intelligently explains how subjective morality changed his life below; Ted Bundy an atheist was interviewed in prison? He said, "Then I learned that all moral judgments are ‘value judgments,’ that all value judgments are subjective, and that none can be proved to be either ‘right’ or ‘wrong.’ I even read somewhere that the Chief Justice of the United States had written that the American Constitution expressed nothing more than collective value judgments. Believe it or not, I figured out for myself–what apparently the Chief Justice couldn’t figure out for himself–that if the rationality of one value judgment was zero, multiplying it by millions would not make it one whit more rational. Nor is there any ‘reason’ to obey the law for anyone, like myself, who has the boldness and daring–the strength of character–to throw off its shackles… I discovered that to become truly free, truly unfettered, I had to become truly uninhibited. And I quickly discovered that the greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable ‘value judgment’ that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these ‘others?’ Other human beings, with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more than a hog’s life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than for the other? Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as ‘moral’ or ‘good’ and others as ‘immoral’ or ‘bad’? He says to the female interviewer, "In any case, let me assure you, my dear young lady, that there is absolutely no comparison between the pleasure that I might take in eating ham and the pleasure I anticipate in raping and murdering you. That is the honest conclusion to which my education has led me–after the most conscientious examination of my spontaneous and uninhibited life." --Ted Bundy, cited in Louis P. Pojman, Ethics: Discovering Right and Wrong, 3rd edition (Belmont, CA: Wadsworth/Thomson, 1999), 31-32. The question to atheists is simply: On what moral grounds can you provide a response to Bundy? Vaxx, Rekinomtla, Butterflyle0, sonofthunder 1 Like |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by Heathen777(m): 6:40pm On Jul 29, 2018 |
ScienceWatch: He makes some points where he says value is subjective, but then again we humans have evolved to have greater intelligence and consciousness, thus greater weight is placed on our action. That's why a lion killing another lion is different from a human killing another human. Things of value cannot be taken without justifiable reason (a reason that is fair to the parties involved), whether that things is money or life. Ted Bundley's way of reasoning isn't well thought out, and it's also an unsustainable model for any society, thus a threat, an unwanted reality for all societies. |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by ScienceWatch: 7:46pm On Jul 29, 2018 |
Heathen777:Thank you for your interesting response. Let's consider your first point briefly; In nature Lion communities flourish, they don't sit around arguing petty issues of life. No Lion will kill another Lion for selfish reasons such as hatred, envy, jealousy or greed. Only deranged humans do that. Lions are created with the perfect blue print that ensures calm stable and sustainable communities. Lion don't use objective, subjective concepts to influence their behaviour, if they did we will see them arguing about right and wrong . On you second point about the atheist serial killer, Ted Bundy, he is not using reasoning to determine his course of actions, but he used what most atheists excel at which is materialistic logic. You on the other hand used the higher mental faculty called reason to make some points here. Reason lifts mans morality to include value for others lives, especially the oppressed and poor.. Therefore your conclusion that Ted Bundy's material logical thinking alone is an unsustainable model for any society, thus a threat, an unwanted reality for all societies can only be fully appreciated when higher reason is applied. For deeper insight, even higher intuition is needed. I know of many wise persons that can explain all this much better than me, like Vaxx, Butterflyle0, WinnerO1, Rekinomtla, Butterflyleo to name a few. 3 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by budaatum: 8:56pm On Jul 29, 2018 |
Heathen777:It is the same reason why no one on this earth subscribes to his ideology as a sustainable model for themself. And why it's ridiculous of anyone to assume anyone would. In fact, didn't his ass rot in jail? |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by ScienceWatch: 8:39am On Jul 30, 2018 |
budaatum:The atheist serial killer Ted Bundy applied the same material logic used by atheists on nairaland in the fake religious section. Atheists display exactly the same harmful tendencies when attacking the highly sustainable model of Christian worship and the worship of all Theists. Hour by hour demented atheists troll the internet to rend all that is sacred to others. It the very same distructive heart felt impuses that drove the atheist Ted Bundy to chose an obviously unsustainable atheist model to satisfy his cruelty. I witness the same cruelty in the insults and slanderous mockery of atheists as they troll religious forums, therefore your defense of atheism is loaded with scary contradictions when you claim that,, "no one on this earth subscribes to the atheist serial killer Ted Bundy's ideology as a sustainable model for themself." A further shock to Christian sensibilities was presented as evidence of atheists Ted Bundy style cowardice by the esteemed Butterflyleo when he timeously posted the horrifying Atheists Training Manual for the esteemed WinnerO1 to study. That manual will mold many more Ted Bundy's because it indoctrinates it adherents to harm others without conscience because only the SELF with its subjective morality matters. ATHEISM IS AN UNSUSTAINABLE MODEL FOR SANE HUMANITY. spartan117(m), winner01(m), SamgoldBaba(m), elantraceey(f), pressplay411(m), greatnaija01, Nwatiti24(f), olanshi(m), rekinomtla(m), Anas09, macaphan007(m), Butterflyleo, budaatum, donnie(m), DoctorAlien(m), JacksonD7, MalcoImX, Afolearning(m), Ronpet777(m), OLAADEGBU(m), butterflyl1on, OkCornel(m), sonofthunder, GodsMopol, vaxx, bloodofthelamb(m), KingEbukasBlog(m), Ekatwins, Veron265(f), SpeedndAccuracy(m), felixomor, butterflylion, MAXIMAL123(m), Ermacc, shegssosplendid(m), Roy52793 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by budaatum: 9:42pm On Aug 17, 2018 |
Gggg102:I see you've been struggling with this topic a while! You got somewhere here, but now I think you have backslided. God presents the "ideal", according to some. However, when Jesus came along and disobeyed God's own given Sabbath law by asking the Pharisees if they would not jump in the well to save their sheep on the Sabbath, can you see how he is claiming that even God's laws are circumstantial, and not as rigid as some think? “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” he said. Don't you think he is saying humans make the laws they live by, at the least? I wonder if you have heard of the "stand your ground laws" introduced in America? Basically, under certain circumstances, I could murder you and still not have committed a crime. Wouldn't you say that as far as humans are concerned, the law is what we make it? Now, listen to Paul. Man is not made for the law |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by Gggg102(m): 10:20pm On Aug 17, 2018 |
budaatum: discussing Jesus God... might be a bit messy due to the Christian theology involved. law grace.... God did not mean for the law to be permanent. he made them temporary. part of his plan. however, they are still objective relative to man as man cannot change it to allow or disallow anything he wants. god's law is binding. I don't think Jesus meant god's law can be changed by man when he said that. I think he meant they could be suspended if doing so would lead to greater good. as far as humans are concerned, law is what we make it. this is my point. we can make it whatever we want. it is not exactly binding. the law is just the subjective opinion of the majority. it is not a proof of good or evil. anything can become lawful and anything can become lawless. we determine the law to be what we please. it isn't objective. |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by budaatum: 10:34pm On Aug 17, 2018 |
Gggg102:So, even God's law is subjective after all? To be changed by subjective human beings, by their subjective opinion of the subjective "greater good" ? You should take up comedy. You sure do make me laugh, subjectively! |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by Gggg102(m): 10:46pm On Aug 17, 2018 |
budaatum: I never said it could be changed by man. 1. god's law is subjective relative to god. he made it therefore he can break it. 2. god's law is objective with respect to man. it is not made by our power. if we break it, we suffer consequences. 3. I said god's law can be suspended. although god made the law to guide us, we are not made to be slaves to follow like zombies. god even put special plans in case. e. g accidental murder... in general cases the law is the best guide and is followed completely, in special cases it has to be suspended. for instance if a parent makes a law instructing his child not to touch the scissors. won't that law be suspended if an emergency comes up and only the child can solve it by using the scissors? e. g his mother's hair gets tangled in something. |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by Martinez19(m): 9:14pm On Sep 25, 2018 |
Saying morality is subjective because moral norms have changed from time to time is like saying that truth is subjective because popular beliefs haved changed from time to time. The variation in moral perspective among different races is due to religious and cultural upbringings (both of which are usually combined in many races). Cultural norms and religion are man made that's why it must be taught but many people confuse a race's cultural norms/upbringing and religion with their innate morality. When people think homosexuality is wrong, where do you think got that idea from? When people claim premarital sex is wrong, where do you think they got that from? Take away religious and cultural upbringings, people will, together, agree on what's moral. Reasoning and empathy govern morality and given that religion is different from place to place and it influences reasoning, hence the different views on morality. |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by johnydon22(m): 4:19pm On Sep 26, 2018 |
Martinez19:Morality and truth are not the same and this equivalence is false. Popular belief does not mean truth because truth is not a belief that is why it is objective. while popular belief may change, the truth doesn't. The earth orbits the sun is a truth. Popular belief once held the opposite, this doesn't change the truth. Morality on the other is a belief, a human idea and therefore is prone to human modification as it is not an objective inherent universal variable. 1 Like |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by Martinez19(m): 5:04pm On Sep 26, 2018 |
johnydon22:They are equivalent in the aspect that they don't change regardless of what people think. Morality is not just a belief or idea, I believe that it's something we are born with and it's governed by reasoning and empathy. The difference in moral norms across all places and history is due to influence of religious and cultural upbringings (both of which are usually merged together and influence reasoning). |
Re: Atheists/theists: Is Morality Subjective Or Objective? by johnydon22(m): 5:08pm On Sep 26, 2018 |
Martinez19: Go and look at my reply to your post, i promised an expatiation, just did. |
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