Its only in Africa we celebrate foreign coaches. In Europe, no foreign coach has ever won the Euro except Otto Reheagal. No foreign coach has ever won the world cup. That's why the best Africa can boast of in a world cup is a quarter final place. Football power houses have realized the folly in hiring a foreign coach and have decided to groom theirs and they are excelling because they know solution must come from within.

Nigeria Verdict: surprisingly, given the tactically astute nature of Lars Lagerback, Nigeria failed to demonstrate any real game plan and looked to run out of ideas when they got the ball in the final third. Playing a zonal marking system against a side of Argentina's quality was suicidal and a shaky defence was fortunate not to have conceded more than one goal,
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/report?id=264037&cc=3888&ver=global
another confirmation that we approached the game without a game plan.

@honeric and medjai
Don't u guys think it's a bit too early to judge Lars based on one match against Potential champions in which we narrowly lost by a lone goal?
Really, this debate would only make much sense after Nigeria is eliminated and meanwhile I have still not gottan an answer for my question?
How come the home grown managers have achieved nothing with the Super Eagles, not even the Nations Cup?
Please, don't give me the excuse of not getting enough support or meagre salary.They could have rejected the offer or resigned midway if promises made were not kept

HNIC
Westerhoff that won us our last nations cup had 5 years to build and prepare a team. None of our local coaches have been given that much time.

medjai:

HNIC
Westerhoff that won us our last nations cup had 5 years to build and prepare a team. None of our local coaches have been given that much time.

Rubbish analysis.
Westerhof became a manager in 1989 and took Nigeria to a Nations Cup final in 1990.
Less than one YEAR and Westerhof played in a FINAL!!!!

Has Amodu ever played in a Nations Cup Final before?
Hell will freeze before FAGmodu achieves that.

He got to the finals, did he win? considering the gap in how much they earned and how much talent was in the team. Amodu got to the semis in his first attempt and were knocked out by a very strong Senegal team. Apart from Algeria, there was no team Westerhoff met in the '90 Nations cup that were as strong as Senegal.

@medjai
I just said, . .
No excuses
You are here talking about Amodu winning bronze, when the Modakeke high chief, Onigbinde also won silver on his first attempt
Talk about Nations Cup exploits,Amodu isn't even the Very best
Onigbinde>>>>Amodu

HNIC
Another thing is the development of African football. When Westerhoff won the nations cup most of the other African teams were thrash. In 94 only 3 teams could represent Africa in the world cup unlike now when we have 6 teams in the world cup. Back then how many African players were playing in Europe? Now almost all African teams can field a foreign based starting XI. Football in Africa has really developed. There are no minnows any more. Westerhoff had 5 years to build that team that won the nations cup. Amodu did not have 5 years to build a team in a period where African football has become more competitive than Westerhoff's era. As for Onigbinde, na the same thing we dey talk. Our local coaches are good.

I must disagree with your reasoning. First of all, I do not think objective and informed Nigerians would grudge a coach concerning tactical switches, be he Nigerian or otherwise. Having access to live feeds of European leagues has disposed them to seeing similar switches. Those who would make a bone about this are the sorts that are best disregarded.  On the other hand, it is part of soccer culture that fans and the media get to have their own say. Is it wrong to question a line-up or the rationale for a substitution in match? I do not think so. Objective analysts would offer their reason for criticism any way. This is call constructive criticism as opposed to mere angst or fruitless shouting.

In fact, such tactical switches say much about the ability of a coach in accessing the pontentials of his players and using them to  advantage. When Daniel Amokachi played for Rancher's Bees, for instance, he played as the main striker, but when Westerhof called him up for the national team, he played him as an attacking midfielder. Amokachi was so successful in this role that the media nicknamed him "the engine room." Eto'o had a similar change of role at Inter Milan this season, being used mostly on the outside right flank. In fact, one of Amodu's problems, as I see it, is that he failed to consider this issue of role, often using players in one role even though they prove to be ineffective in such roles. Nor is it only Amodu who has failed to understand this. Many Nigerians and other Africans, even Brazilians, are wont to accuse the players of lack of a similar commitment and work rate for country as that given their club sides. I believe this is an error.

Take Yakubu Ayegbeni as an example. At Everton he plays an attacking role proper, rarely falling back to help the midfield, effectively free to make runs at the opposing goal. For the Eagles however, because we've lacked a holding midfield since we lost the crust of Oliseh, Okocha and Amokachi, strikers have been force to fight for balls deeper in the field rather than being free to trouble the opposing defense. This freedom to be an attacker proper was responsible for the effectiveness of Rashidi Yekini. I could cite the cases of Eto'o and Drogba in their recent national teams as further examples, where they've been forced to take on more responsibility rather than being free in the manner referred to above. Predictably, their effectiveness as goal scorers has nose-dived as a result.

As to your call for the sack of Lagerback after the World Cup, I do not see how this would benefit the country. It would only perpetuate the culture of hiring and firing that has been the history of the Nigerian Football Federation. Lagerback has barely had time  for any constructive impact. There is some indication that he might turn out to be a good coach: He insisted on appointing his own assistants, one of which is a scout, which leaves me to suppose that he plans on rebuilding the team by scouting the domestic league. This, by the way, is the way to go, I believe.

Is Amodu a world class coach? Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I, for one, do not think he is. The Eagles have played in their worst form in his two tenures. Under him, the Eagles played very badly at the 2002 Africa Cup of Nation, only managing scrappy wins. Of course, the disgust of Nigerians at this scrappy manner of play, Oliseh's vocal criticism of the NFF, coupled with Onigbinde's conniving bad-mouthing of Amodu and Keshi led to the disbandment of the team and the sack of the coaching crew. During Chukwu’s tenure, not long after, the Eagle's playing style was barely an improvement on Amodu's style (though there was definitely an improvement) yet Nigerians hailed the team's performance at the 2004 AFCON, where we beat Cameroon in the quarter-final, though we only managed a third place finish, the same as Amodu's finish at the previous edition. My point is that, Nigerians don't mind losing so far as the team plays well.

I wouldn't say that the Eagles played well against Argentina, in fact, I think they didn't. Nigerians are only happy that they were not disgraced in the match (which says a lot about their ideology). To some extent, I can understand this mind set.

The opportunities I see for Nigerian coaches outside the country can only be within Africa. Racial bias, I believe, is a strong mitigating factor for any hope for them of coaching in Europe. They would, in any case, first have to prove themselves as being among the world’s best. Presently, I haven’t seen any evidence of that, Siasia, perhaps, but he still needs to prove that he can be consistent in success.

medjai:

He got to the finals, did he win? considering the gap in how much they earned and how much talent was in the team. Amodu got to the semis in his first attempt and were knocked out by a very strong Senegal team. Apart from Algeria, there was no team Westerhoff met in the '90 Nations cup that were as strong as Senegal.

You are talking bollocks. . . . . . .
Ivory Coast, Zambia and Egypt of Algiers 90 were all better than the Senegalese team of 2002.

The CIV team with Traore were okay compared to a Senegal side that had Tony Sylva, Fadiga, Papa Bouba Diop, Henri Camara, Diouf, etc. Why didnt that CIV team qualify for the world cup? Egypt's fielded an experimental side in the 90 nations cup. They were trying to build a team for the world cup.

Another thing is the development of African football. When Westerhoff won the nations cup most of the other African teams were thrash. In 94 only 3 teams could represent Africa in the world cup unlike now when we have 6 teams in the world cup. Back then how many African players were playing in Europe? Now almost all African teams can field a foreign based starting XI. Football in Africa has really developed. There are no minnows any more. Westerhoff had 5 years to build that team that won the nations cup. Amodu did not have 5 years to build a team in a period where African football has become more competitive than Westerhoff's era. As for Onigbinde, na the same thing we dey talk. Our local coaches are good.

Wrong. The teams that played at the 94 AFCON were strong teams. Nigeria did not just waltz its way through that competition. In fact, the Eagles of the 90 AFCON and 92  AFCON were barely different from the cup winning one in 94, yet those teams struggled against African opposition. You are talking about the decade of African soccer renaissance: Cameroon's amazing run at the World Cup, Nigeria four years after, and yet these two teams had stiff opposition from sister African teams. Cameroon, for example, had a disgraceful run at the 90 AFCON, yet stunned the world only a few months later.

During this last stint, Amodu had all the time to build a new team, remember that qualifications started two years ago, yet he made the same mistake as that of his second stint in 2002.

For those who hail Onigbinde, pray, list his achievements.

medjai:

The CIV team with Traore were okay compared to a Senegal side that had Tony Sylva, Fadiga, Papa Bouba Diop, Henri Camara, Diouf, etc. Why didnt that CIV team qualify for the world cup? Egypt's fielded an experimental side in the 90 nations cup. They were trying to build a team for the world cup.

Winning the nations cup and qualifying for the World Cup are two different things.
Ask yourself why Egypt, who have made winning the Nations Cup their birthright,failed to qualify for S.A 2010?

you cant compare the level of African football two decades back to what it is today. True, there were some decent sides but they were very few. Today, almost every African side is good.

medjai:

you cant compare the level of African football two decades back to what it is today. True, there were some decent sides but they were very few. Today, almost every African side is good.

medjai,

Though I'm not sure that your response refers to my objection regarding African football in the 90s, but for the sake of constructive discussion let me respond.

I would agree with you if you could provide empirical or objective examples to prove your point. For instance, how many African countries are now better than they were a decade ago? South Africa? Nigeria? Senegal? Cote d'Ivorie? Egypt? Zambia? Zaire, which is  now the DRC? Cameroon? Tunisia? Algeria? Ghana? which country? None of the countries I have mentioned have achieved more success than the had in the 90s. Please, inform me if I'm wrong, or did I miss any country?

Senegal in 2002 made it to the world cup quarter finals beating world champions France. Where were Senegal in the 90's. Even when they staged AFCON they were no where to be found. There are no minnows in African football anymore. We have seen teams like Togo, Ghana, Angola and even CIV play in the world cup. African football have moved from an era where a select few teams will have a walk in the park against other African sides. Now they have to properly for every match. African champions Egypt couldnt qualify for the world cup. They lost against some lowly rated sides in the qualifiers. Most recently, a full strength Portugal struggled to draw against Cape Verde.

Senegal in 2002 made it to the world cup quarter finals beating world champions France. Where were Senegal in the 90's.

I suspected you'd use examples like this. However you should consider the issue of turnovers, without which your argument would lack thrust. By this I mean, for example, that the Senegal team that played in the 2000 AFCON, that nearly knocked us out, is the same team, almost to the letter, that went to the 2002 World Cup. This team did not just spring up overnight, the roots of its rise are firmly rooted in the 90s. And, it is not true to say that Senegal didn't do well in the 1992 AFCON, where they reached the quarter final, only losing to Cameroon. Hosting a competition does not automatically translate to winning it; numerous examples are enthymematic.

In previous decades, it was harder for African countries to qualify for the World Cup because we had fewer slots. As recently as Italia 90, Africa had only two slots, increased to three in 94, due to Cameroon's convincing performance at the 90 edition, then to five, after Nigeria put up an impressive performance at the 94 edition. Had we five slots in the past (six this year, including South Africa, the host) decades, more African countries would have played at the World Cup. Accordingly, to judge the success of African countries in past decades based on their playing in the World Cup is a shaky and unconvincing premise. Nigeria was a good team in the 80s, yet it did not play in the World Cup because of the foregoing reason. Ghana, for instance, played in the final of the 94 AFCON (and had we more slots at the World Cup, they would have definitely featured in World Cup in the 90s) but in the 2000s Ghana never reached the final of the same competition.

Of course, we can't have flat plateaus of successes or lack of in any given decade, but I can confidently compare the 90s and the 2000s and say that Africa had stronger teams then. How about Zambia, for instance, that could have won the 94 AFCON, which would have been with a second eleven that they fielded in the competition due to the tragic loss of their first eleven in a plane crash few month before the competition? How about the winning of two Olympic soccer gold medals in this decade, back to back, after impressive performances in the World Cup? Show me what other achievements Africa pulled off in the 2000s that did not have their roots in the 1990s.

Instead of progressing, I actually think African football is regressing due to the brawn drain, resulting from a neglect of domestic leagues by the exodus of African players to the European leagues. Tell me that I'm wrong.

the rise of African football was a slow and steady movement that started even before the 90's. I dont believe that African football is in a declining state. more than ever many teams have become relevant in the continent. That we've not to been able to repeat winning the Olympic gold in football is not enough to say our football is on the decline. Nigeria made it to the finals at the Beijing olympics, Ghana won the FIFA world youth championship in Egypt, not forgetting that they had a good outing in Germany 2006 on their world cup debut.

That we've not to been able to repeat winning the Olympic gold in football is not enough to say our football is on the decline.

Which is not my point if you read my comment on this carefully.

the rise of African football was a slow and steady movement that started even before the 90's.

Right. You'd surely then concede to my point, which is that African football in the past was not simply trash, where a few nations, namely, Cameroon and Nigeria or Egypt were the few shining beacons.

Ghana won the FIFA world youth championship in Egypt

The team which is now a part of the fabric of their current national team, which is as should be. Note that I didn't mention youth football in my last comments, part of Africa's success story. I focused mainly on the senior national teams, Olympic teams being  versions of some sort of these teams. If youth teams don't translate into successful senior national teams, what good does that do but an indication of under achievement and a basking into such deceptive glory thereof?

Nigeria made it to the finals at the Beijing olympics

And how has that translated into success for us?

Olympic football is a youth tournament. U-23. If its senior national teams then it would be Cameroon playing in the finals of the 2001 confederations cup, Senegal in the 2002 world cup, Ghana in the 2006 world cup and Egypt beating Italy at the last confederations cup. Besides, i said that the 90's played an important part in getting African football to where it is today and not at par with we have today. In as much as the 90's football was important, it was dominated by a few teams. In 2006, we had 4 new teams participating in the world cup. This couldnt have happened in the 90's even if FIFA increased the number slots for Africa.

Olympic football is a youth tournament. U-23. If its senior national teams then it would be Cameroon playing in the finals of the 2001 confederations cup, Senegal in the 2002 world cup, Ghana in the 2006 world cup and Egypt beating Italy at the last confederations cup

I'd think you are able to read between the lines. Part of a good discussion is representing an opposing argument correctly. Nobody is saying that an Olympic team is a senior team proper. I guess that was not apparent to you.

In any case, I believe I have made my point to wit: that the 2000s were not better years than the 90s for African football. There's no achievement attended by Africa in the former years that had not already been achieved in the latter.

As to my point on decline, you may find my opinion here: http://sinyoar..com/
I discuss this issue in-depth, if focusing mainly on Nigeria. Please, scroll down the page to find the essay. I invite you to read, and if you like leave your thoughts.

Our exchange here has been a constructive one, I believe. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I modified my post while you were posting. you can check it again

HNIC:

@honeric and medjai
Don't u guys think it's a bit too early to judge Lars based on one match against Potential champions in which we narrowly lost by a lone goal?
Really, this debate would only make much sense after Nigeria is eliminated and meanwhile I have still not gottan an answer for my question?
How come the home grown managers have achieved nothing with the Super Eagles, not even the Nations Cup?
Please, don't give me the excuse of not getting enough support or meagre salary.They could have rejected the offer or resigned midway if promises made were not kept

See, i am not against Lars, what i am against is the way Nigerians are quick to say we have improved, improve my foot, can any of you define what improvement means? Gosh!, WE DON SUFFER FOR NIGERIA.

Maybe you should read this.
http://www.punchontheweb.com/Articl.aspx?theartic=Art201006151324260

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-463438.0.html

Its only in Africa we celebrate foreign coaches. In Europe, no foreign coach has ever won the Euro except Otto Reheagal. No foreign coach has ever won the world cup. That's why the best Africa can boast of in a world cup is a quarter final place. Football power houses have realized the folly in hiring a foreign coach and have decided to groom theirs and they are excelling because they know solution must come from within.

England, Prtugal, Russia, Greece, Turkey, South Korea, Japan and Switzerland are examples of African countries

He got to the finals, did he win? considering the gap in how much they earned and how much talent was in the team. Amodu got to the semis in his first attempt and were knocked out by a very strong Senegal team. Apart from Algeria, there was no team Westerhoff met in the '90 Nations cup that were as strong as Senegal.

Now I know you dont know much about football.

Westerhof came and picked a bunch of home based players to the tournament he ignored all European based players.

There was no team Westerhoff met in the '90 Nations cup that were as strong as Senegal

Go and read about the KK 11 of Zambia that we beat in the semi finals I wont bother telling you about them.

That Zambia beat Cameroun who would later go ahead and have a great world cup.

That was probably the best African team before the plane crash that killed all of them in 1993.

Go and read about Chabala, John Soko, Chisala, Kenneth Malitoli , Chikabala even Kalusha Bwalya(Who won African player of the year before any Naija player could sniff it)

What about Elijah Litana ?

dk,
i still insist that its in Africa we celebrate foreign coaches. England, Portugal, Russia, Turkey, Greece represent an inconsequential percentage of European teams. In Africa almost every team has a foreign coach. Of the 6 teams representing Africa at the mundial only Algeria has a local coach. Besides, if you look at the achievements, trophies, of these foreign coaches, you will understand why the likes of Italy, Holland, Germany would rather groom their local coaches. Scolari could only achieve a second place finish in the Euros on home soil. Hiddink couldnt qualify russia for the world cup, England were poor under Eriksson. Reheagal is about the only foreign coach that won something.
As for the Zambian side we knocked out yes they were truly a great side. I still believe the Senegal team we met were stronger. No disrespect to that Zambian side, but if they were so good, they would have made it to the world cup. Keshi also played in that nations cup and was abroad at that time

.

What are Africa's greatest exploits in the world cup?

Senegal's quarter finals? Cameroun's quarter finals? Nigeria's second round appearances? Kindly name one of them that was achieved by a domestic coach.

While we must encourage local coaches and give them room to develop, there is inevitably a gulf in class compared with the foreign coaches, that is the reality of the matter.

dk,
i still insist that its in Africa we celebrate foreign coaches. England, Portugal, Russia, Turkey, Greece represent an inconsequential percentage of European teams. In Africa almost every team has a foreign coach. Of the 6 teams representing Africa at the mundial only Algeria has a local coach. Besides, if you look at the achievements, trophies, of these foreign coaches, you will understand why the likes of Italy, Holland, Germany would rather groom their local coaches. Scolari could only achieve a second place finish in the Euros on home soil. Hiddink couldnt qualify russia for the world cup, England were poor under Eriksson. Reheagal is about the only foreign coach that won something.

It has to do with the expertize. Europeans have a better knowledge of the game.

In 2002 China's coach was bora Miltinovic, Japa- Phillipe Troussiere, Korea- Guus Hindick Are these countries African countries too?

In 2006 Iran had Branko Ivanković, Australia -Guus Hindick, Japan- Zico , Korea- Dick Advocaat

Can we say the Asians too suffer from self hate?

The Asians acknowledge that European/South Americans know the game better.

As for the Zambian side we knocked out yes they were truly a great side. I still believe the Senegal team we met were stronger. No disrespect to that Zambian side, but if they were so good, they would have made it to the world cup. Keshi also played in that nations cup and was abroad at that time

Now I have to say you are a recent follower of football or you dont know the game at all.

1) Senegal qualified for the world cup when 5 teams were representing Africa while in 1990 just 2 teams represented the whole continent.

2) Keshi did not play in 1990 nations cup, Yekini(African Sports of Abidjan) was one of 2 foreign players in the squad. The others were home based and most had their under 5-10 caps for the national team.

I can remember Rabah Madjer scoring the first goal off the post, before Djamel Menad and Djamel Amani wrapped up our 5-1 humiliation. I watched this game live on NTA. Even NTA couldnt show the 5th goal they were showing a replay of a move when the goal was scored by Menad

dayokanu:

Go and read about the KK 11 of Zambia that we beat in the semi finals I wont bother telling you about them.

That Zambia beat Cameroun who would later go ahead and have a great world cup.

That was probably the best African team before the plane crash that killed all of them in 1993.

Go and read about Chabala, John Soko, Chisala, Kenneth Malitoli , Chikabala even Kalusha Bwalya(Who won African player of the year before any Naija player could sniff it)

They had stunned the world even before Algiers 90.
The same pool of players disgraced Italy in Seoul 88 by beating em 4-0.
Kalusha Bwalya got a fantastic hatrick. . . . . . . .Nigeria were lucky half of em died in a plane crash.
It woulda been a tougher Final for Westerhof and Yekini in Tunis.

They had stunned the world even before Algiers 90.
The same pool of players disgraced Italy in Seoul 88 by beating em 4-0.
Kalusha Bwalya got a fantastic hatrick. . . . . . . .Nigeria were lucky half of em died in a plane crash.
It woulda been a tougher Final for Westerhof and Yekini in Tunis.

Damn you!!! You spoilt the fun, I wanted him to talk the Zambian team down first before telling him their exploits in Seoul 88 where they pummeled Italy and guantemala 4-0 each

I thought Keshi played at the 90 AFCON. There were only two teams playing in the world cup from Africa as at 1990. What stopped Zambia from qualifying as one of the two teams? Back then, there were few strong teams unlike when Senegal qualified