DP

Gggg102:


if the universe is created, it automatically means there is a god that created it. nothing have been spinned.

there are two assumptions.
creator and no creator.
you can either believe there is a creator, believe that there is no creator or be skeptical about both positions.
which are you?
I want you to state which group you fall under.

it is an assumption. same with the assumption that there is no god.

I belong to the I don't know group. Was the universe created? I don't know. There aren't only two assumptions. There are only two assumptions according to you. There is the 3rd position which is the I don't know position which i belong to. I don't know if the universe was created because no objective evidence has been provided in that regard . So I don't know is my position.

Dalamama:


I belong to the I don't know group. Was the universe created? I don't know. There aren't only two assumptions. There are only two assumptions according to you. There is the 3rd position which is the I don't know position which i belong to. I don't know if the universe was created because no objective evidence has been provided in that regard . So I don't know is my position.

belonging to the I don't know group means you are agnostic.

you can't say the universe was created and there is god because you don't know.

you can't say the universe was not created and there is no god because you don't know.

you are waiting for evidence from those who make assumptions before you reach a conclusion.

Zoharariel:
Spiritual Awakening! When your DNA strands & Chakras (which your god forgot to mention through his holy spirit inspired written holy books) are activated, you will perceive the truth with all your senses and smell the lies from thousands of kilometers away.

As it is written in your holy books - "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

Do not confine yourself to just 1 holy book written the 6th century by some Roman charlatans under the influence of alcohol.

Explore all the resources available to mankind if you're yearning to know the truth concerning all things - and you will succeed.

God bless you
if he ever existed

frank317:


Creator of the universe who created us to love and worship him

Cool.

What about any supernatural being, whatsoever? Are you a "disbeliever" in that?

Gggg102:



belonging to the I don't know group means you are agnostic.

you can't say the universe was created and there is god because you don't know.

you can't say the universe was not created and there is no god because you don't know.

you are waiting for evidence from those who make assumptions before you reach a conclusion.

You've failed to show where I've said that the universe wasn't created. Am an atheist because I don't believe in the existence of Gods. There is no evidence provided to show that the universe was created. Only empty assumptions.

Dalamama:


You've failed to show where I've said that the universe wasn't created. Am an atheist because I don't believe in the existence of Gods. There is no evidence provided to show that the universe was created. Only empty assumptions.

you saying there is no god implies the universe wasn't created.

but since you say your position is 'I don't know', then you are agnostic. this means you have no business saying god exists or god doesn't exist. you are only in position to ask for evidence.

I agree. they are empty assumptions. but since you are agnostic(you don't know group), you don't make empty assumptions like: 'there is god', 'the universe was created', 'there is no god', and 'the universe was not created'. you only ask for evidence from those who make empty assumptions.

sinequanon:


Cool.

What about any supernatural being, whatsoever? Are you a "disbeliever" in that?

I have never seen any supernatural being... People have made claims they can't substantiate.

I have no opinion about this really... All i know is if anyone tells me he saw one, he will have to come op with undoubtable stories other wise I will dismiss it.

I am somewhat a disbeliever though... I said somewhat because that's is so much about the universe that we don't know... People call unknown things supernatural

Gggg102:



Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the
supernatural is unknown or
unknowable . [1][2][3]wikipedia

Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of
deities . [1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. [5][6] In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. [1][2][7][8] wikipedia

Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities . [1][2] wikipedia


theist= there is god.
atheist= there is no god.
agnostic= we don't know.

In this case agnostic is more like atheism... The fact is that everyone does not know... However when same people who do know make assumptions and call it fact, people who do not also know will ask them for proof and reject the assumption if none is given...like wise the agnostic who says he does not know,. Saying he does not know also implies that rejects the notion that there is God...

All these are really long unnecessary labelling and stories... If anyone says there is God, he should prove it, otherwise he is making false claim... Simple.

Gggg102:


you saying there is no god implies the universe wasn't created.

but since you say your position is 'I don't know', then you are agnostic. this means you have no business saying god exists or god doesn't exist. you are only in position to ask for evidence.

I agree. they are empty assumptions. but since you are agnostic(you don't know group), you don't make empty assumptions like: 'there is god', 'the universe was created', 'there is no god', and 'the universe was not created'. you only ask for evidence from those who make empty assumptions.

Him saying there is no God implies that none has been proven... No one knows if the universe was created or not... Nonsensical assumptive claims must be dismisses

frank317:


In this case agnostic is more like atheism... The fact is that everyone does not know... However when same people who do know make assumptions and call it fact, people who do not also know will ask them for proof and reject the assumption if none is given...like wise the agnostic who says he does not know,. Saying he does not know also implies that rejects the notion that there is God...

All these are really long unnecessary labelling and stories... If anyone says there is God, he should prove it, otherwise he is making false claim... Simple.

or it's atheism that is acting both as agnosticism and atheism at once.

you say everyone does not know. and I agree.

1.do you agree that the theists who say there is god are making empty assumptions?
2. do you agree that atheists who say there is no god are making empty assumptions?

frank317:


Him saying there is no God implies that none has been proven... No one knows if the universe was created or not... Nonsensical assumptive claims must be dismisses

him saying there is no god means nothing other than there is no god.
saying there is no god implies that it has been proved that there is no god.

that none have been proven does not mean there is no god.
absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

no one knows, so you can't claim it was created, neither can you claim it wasn't.
you can't claim there is god, neither can you claim there is no god. dismissal does not equate falsehood.

Gggg102:


you saying there is no god implies the universe wasn't created.

but since you say your position is 'I don't know', then you are agnostic. this means you have no business saying god exists or god doesn't exist. you are only in position to ask for evidence.

I agree. they are empty assumptions. but since you are agnostic(you don't know group), you don't make empty assumptions like: 'there is god', 'the universe was created', 'there is no god', and 'the universe was not created'. you only ask for evidence from those who make empty assumptions.

God and the creation of the universe are two separate things. The universe could be eternal and God could still exist for example. You are conflating two different issues here.

I don't know of the universe was created has nothing to do with my disbelief in Gods. The universe could be eternal, the universe could be created by intelligent beings that exist in another .ore advanced universe outside our own. There are many possibilities.

I was banned by antispambot from posting in this section. I could Post on FP threads but not this section since yesterday

Where were we?

frank317:


I have never seen any supernatural being... People have made claims they can't substantiate.

I have no opinion about this really... All i know is if anyone tells me he saw one, he will have to come op with undoubtable stories other wise I will dismiss it.

I am somewhat a disbeliever though... I said somewhat because that's is so much about the universe that we don't know... People call unknown things supernatural

Myself, I think the word "supernatural" is smoke and mirrors.

How do would you scientifically "show" something is supernatural? It seems to be a contradiction in terms. "Showing" anything in science, at once makes it repeatable/reproducible/consistent/controllable rendering it not supernatural. So, asking for proof of the supernatural would be disingenuous.

By its very nature science is control freakery. It only recognizes things that can be controlled or things that can be explained by controllable phenomena. That doesn't mean that other things do not exist. It only means that science, by its very definition, is blind to them.

Gggg102:



belonging to the I don't know group means you are agnostic.

you can't say the universe was created and there is god because you don't know.

you can't say the universe was not created and there is no god because you don't know.

you are waiting for evidence from those who make assumptions before you reach a conclusion.

How does universe not being created invalidate god?

hopefulLandlord:
How does universe not being created invalidate god?

if the universe wasn't created, there would be no need for a god.
the basic foundation of god is that he created the universe. if you can prove that the universe wasn't created, you have proved there was no creator of the universe.

Gggg102:


if the universe wasn't created, there would be no need for a god.
the basic foundation of god is that he created the universe. if you can prove that the universe wasn't created, you have proved there was no creator of the universe.

Does an eternal universe invalidate god's existence?

hopefulLandlord:


Does an eternal universe invalidate god's existence?

not necessarily. but since we know our universe had a beginning, it isn't eternal.

Gggg102:


not necessarily. but since we know our universe had a beginning, it isn't eternal.

so you agree god can still exist despite the universe being eternal?

Dalamama:


God and the creation of the universe are two separate things. The universe could be eternal and God could still exist for example. You are conflating two different issues here.

I don't know of the universe was created has nothing to do with my disbelief in Gods. The universe could be eternal, the universe could be created by intelligent beings that exist in another .ore advanced universe outside our own. There are many possibilities.

the universe is not eternal. we know it had a beginning. god and the creation of the universe are related because god is title for creator of the universe. if the universe was created, the one who created the universe is god. if it wasn't created, then there is no god.


now you are also making assumptions here. that's the point. it COULD be. you are very dismissive of the idea of god creating the universe, but you accept the possibility of these assumptions. if you are willing to accept these possibilities, what makes god so different?

BTW, the universe being created by intelligent beings from another universe would mean those beings are gods... afterall, they created the universe. you are also willing to consider this possibility even when there is an obvious question of who created the other universe.
if you can consider the this possibility, why are you extremely dismissive of theistic claims?

hopefulLandlord:

so you agree god can still exist despite the universe being eternal?

yes. they would be co-eternal.

Gggg102:

yes. they would be co-eternal.

so proving the universe isn't created doesn't invalidate god then?

Gggg102:


the universe is not eternal. we know it had a beginning. god and the creation of the universe are related because god is title for creator of the universe. if the universe was created, the one who created the universe is god. if it wasn't created, then there is no god.


now you are also making assumptions here. that's the point. it COULD be. you are very dismissive of the idea of god creating the universe, but you accept the possibility of these assumptions. if you are willing to accept these possibilities, what makes god so different?

BTW, the universe being created by intelligent beings from another universe would mean those beings are gods... afterall, they created the universe. you are also willing to consider this possibility even when there is an obvious question of who created the other universe.
if you can consider the this possibility, why are you extremely dismissive of theistic claims?

Theistic claims are empty. They are man made claims all of them. You know the universe had a beginning or you believe the opinion of others that claim it has a beginning? Show me the beginning of the universe since it's something you know. Show me the universe beginning. People have stated that the universe started expanding at a point and that what it expanded from is what they do not know, others have stated other wise. The universe having a beggining is not an established scientific fact talk more of t being created.

I told you I want to know things not just believe them.

hopefulLandlord:


so proving the universe isn't created doesn't invalidate god then?

proving our universe wasn't created does invalidate god.

our universe isn't eternal, it had a beginning.
there are only two options.
it was either created or not created.
if it was created, a creator of the universe is necessary, if it wasn't, no creator is necessary.

an eternal universe does not need to be created. so a creator is not possible.

I mixed my definition of god in the last post.
I've been using the term 'god' to mean creator of the universe. so if the universe is eternal, there is no god.

Gggg102:


proving our universe wasn't created does invalidate god.

our universe isn't eternal, it had a beginning.
there are only two options.
it was either created or not created.
if it was created, a creator of the universe is necessary, if it wasn't, no creator is necessary.

an eternal universe does not need to be created. so a creator is not possible.

I mixed my definition of god in the last post.
I've been using the term 'god' to mean creator of the universe. so if the universe is eternal, there is no god.

The universe as we know it having a beginning doesn't mean its created though. saying it had some beginning therefore its created his equivocation and false equivalence

Dalamama:


Theistic claims are empty. They are man made claims all of them. You know the universe had a beginning or you believe the opinion of others that claim it has a beginning? Show me the beginning of the universe since it's something you know. Show me the universe beginning. People have stated that the universe started expanding at a point and that what it expanded from is what they do not know, others have stated other wise. The universe having a beggining is not an established scientific fact talk more of t being created.

I told you I want to know things not just believe them.

bold words=beginning of the universe.


theistic claims are empty but these claims below are not
:

'The universe could be eternal, the universe could be created by intelligent beings that exist in another .ore advanced universe outside our own.'

hopefulLandlord:


The universe as we know it having a beginning doesn't mean its created though. saying it had some beginning therefore its created his equivocation and false equivalence

I know it does not have to mean it was created. I allow the possibility of both our universe being created and it not being created.

I. e it is possible that the universe was created and this would require a creator.

it is also possible that our universe was not created ( I don't mean eternal, I mean nothing caused the beginning), and this would show no creator created the universe.

Gggg102:


I know it does not have to mean it was created. I allow the possibility of both our universe being created and it not being created.

I. e it is possible that the universe was created and this would require a creator.

it is also possible that our universe was not created ( I don't mean eternal, I mean nothing caused the beginning), and this would show no creator created the universe.

The problem with the words "Universe had a beginning" is that it misses important words

Cosmologists worth their salt don't say "The universe had a beginning" that's religious statement

Cosmologists say "The universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning" The religious people exclude the text in all caps because adding it wouldn't support their own assertion

The difference between the first and the second might look irrelevant on first glance but it actually makes a huge difference on deeper look

Science didn't say the universe didn't exist then or didn't exist in some other form before what they term beginning. infact what science terms beginning is that everything was a singularity. the singularity had been there and started expanding. its the expanding that they call "beginning" but whether what started expanding itself had a beginning or not is inconclusive. what was before it? was anything even before it? is there a "before it"? these are still unanswered

hopefulLandlord:


The problem with the words "Universe had a beginning" is that it misses important words

Cosmologists worth their salt don't say "The universe had a beginning" that's religious statement

Cosmologists say "The universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning" The religious people exclude the text in all caps because adding it wouldn't support their own assertion

The difference between the first and the second might look irrelevant on first glance but it actually makes a huge difference on deeper look

Science didn't say the universe didn't exist then or didn't exist in some other form before what they term beginning. infact what science terms beginning is that everything was a singularity. the singularity had been there and started expanding. its the expanding that they call "beginning" but whether what started expanding itself had a beginning or not is inconclusive. what was before it? was anything even before it? is there a "before it"? these are still unanswered

the question are unanswered and any unproved claim about them is just assumption. and it is unlikely science would be able to prove anything since science did not exist at that time the way we know it.
the most logical conclusion is that we don't know.
any other thing is an assumption except the claimer finds a way to prove it without doubt.
there could be god, there could be no god, there could be something, there could be nothing, there could be anything. they are all possibilities but we don't know for sure unless someone provides proof for which of the possibilities it is.

Gggg102:
...unless someone provides proof...

Example of what would "prove" that god exists?

Gggg102:


the question are unanswered and any unproved claim about them is just assumption. and it is unlikely science would be able to prove anything since science did not exist at that time the way we know it.
the most logical conclusion is that we don't know.
any other thing is an assumption except the claimer finds a way to prove it without doubt.
there could be god, there could be no god, there could be something, there could be nothing, there could be anything. they are all possibilities but we don't know for sure unless someone provides proof for which of the possibilities it is.

exactly but when people say the universe as we know it had a beginning they quickly conflate it as evidence of it being "created" whereas despite the beginning cosmologists talk about the universe can still be eternal.