@stimulus

Before replying your spurious post, do you believe that there is a prophet and Messenger called Muhammad (saw) and the Creator called Allah. Your response will determine my moving ahead with you.

Good luck.

@babs787,

babs787:

@stimulus

Before replying your spurious post, do you believe that there is a prophet and Messenger called Muhammad (saw) and the Creator called Allah. Your response will determine my moving ahead with you.

Good luck.

I didn't know my post was spurious. My answer to your question(s

#1. I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet sent by the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.

#2. I do actually believe that there is a Creator who is called 'Allah' in arabic; but as far as identities are concerned, the 'allah' of Islam is not the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.

Cheers.

@stimulus


I didn't know my post was spurious. My answer to your question(s

#1. I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet sent by the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.

#2. I do actually believe that there is a Creator who is called 'Allah' in arabic; but as far as identities are concerned, the 'allah' of Islam is not the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.


Based on your above response, there is no need for me arguing back and forth with you since you are already inclined to your belief. If you had believed, I would told you the number of prophets and Messengers sent, those that were Israelites and those that were Arabs. Also I would have given you list of some prophets sent to their community but wont do that since you are not ready to learn and update your knowledge.

Good luck and may it not be too long in realising the truth.

@babs787,

babs787:

Based on your above response, there is no need for me arguing back and forth with you since you are already inclined to your belief. If you had believed, I would told you the number of prophets and Messengers sent, those that were Israelites and those that were Arabs. Also I would have given you list of some prophets sent to their community but wont do that since you are not ready to learn and update your knowledge.

Good luck and may it not be too long in realising the truth.

Actually, one doesn't have to be a Muslim in order to engage in dialogue, debate or disucssion of sorts. I believe that one of the reasons for a Forum like this is to set out the misconceptions of discussants who counter-argue issues with others. How is one going to ever know anything new if you engage them in a public Forum and then at the same time decline from offering them answers to what you believe they don't know?

It might be interesting to view your list, though; perhaps it might add to what I thought I already know. However, if you still decline, then all the best and cheers.

@stimulus


Actually, one doesn't have to be a Muslim in order to engage in dialogue, debate or disucssion of sorts. I believe that one of the reasons for a Forum like this is to set out the misconceptions of discussants who counter-argue issues with others. How is one going to ever know anything new if you engage them in a public Forum and then at the same time decline from offering them answers to what you believe they don't know?


You are right that one needs not be a Muslim in order to engage in dialogue or debate but as for me, I dont believe in fruitless debate. Dont you think that it will be an endless debate because at the end of the day you will stick to your belief regardless of the facts being tendered? You are already inclined to your belief and doesnt belief in any other prophet and book aside Jesus and Bible, so arguing with you will be a sheer waste of time. If you or other christians want to know about my belief as regards salvation, I have provided enough verses up, you only need to read them. As for salvation in christianity, I didnt want to push further because you have told me that you dont belive in my prophet and Allah, so to be candid with you, I wont indulge in debate with anyone that doesnt believe in my God and at the end of the day heaps insult on my God.


It might be interesting to view your list, though; perhaps it might add to what I thought I already know. However, if you still decline, then all the best and cheers.


You are not ready to know more than what you have already known. So if you believe that christianity, bible or jesus is the only way to salvation, good luck, so be it.


There

babs787:

@stimulus


Actually, one doesn't have to be a Muslim in order to engage in dialogue, debate or disucssion of sorts. I believe that one of the reasons for a Forum like this is to set out the misconceptions of discussants who counter-argue issues with others. How is one going to ever know anything new if you engage them in a public Forum and then at the same time decline from offering them answers to what you believe they don't know?


You are right that one needs not be a Muslim in order to engage in dialogue or debate but as for me, I don't believe in fruitless debate. Dont you think that it will be an endless debate because at the end of the day you will stick to your belief regardless of the facts being tendered? You are already inclined to your belief and doesnt belief in any other prophet and book aside Jesus and Bible, so arguing with you will be a sheer waste of time. If you or other christians want to know about my belief as regards salvation, I have provided enough verses up, you only need to read them. As for salvation in christianity, I didnt want to push further because you have told me that you don't believe in my prophet and Allah, so to be candid with you, I wont indulge in debate with anyone that doesnt believe in my God and at the end of the day heaps insult on my God.


It might be interesting to view your list, though; perhaps it might add to what I thought I already know. However, if you still decline, then all the best and cheers.


You are not ready to know more than what you have already known. So if you believe that christianity, bible or jesus is the only way to salvation, good luck, so be it.


There

BABS YOU HAVE GREATLY DISSAPOINTED ME. YOU STARTED OUT WITH SEEMING HONEST ENQUIRY BUT YOU HAVE SHOWN, YOU ARE NOT READY TO LISTEN TO HONEST ANSWERS. YOU ASKED QUESTIONS, WHICH I ANSWERED BUT YOU REFUSED TO READ THEM BUT INSTEAD YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT CHELSEA VS LIVERPOOL MATCH. NOW YOU ARE JUDGING STIMULUS OF ALREADY MAKING UP HIS MIND.
IT IS QUITE DISSAPOINTING, YOU LIED ABOUT BEING A CHRISTIAN BEFORE AND NOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SPECK IN SOME ELSES EYES WHEN YOU AHEV A LOG IN YOURS.
I DONT KNOW IF LYING IS CONDONE BY YOU BUT THE BIBLE SAYS ALL LIARS WHO DO NOT REPENT HAVE A PORTION IN HELL.
I AM NOT ANGRY AT YOU BUT I FIND IT DISTURBING TO REALIZE THAT YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH AT ALL.
WHY DONT YOU TAKE TIME TO READ MY RESPONSES AGAIN AND APPROACH THE WHOLE ISSUE WITHOUT PRESUPPOSITION. LET GOD DEFEND HIMSELF, HE DOESNT NEED YOUR HELP IN ANYWAY-OR IS HE NOT GOD?

@jeshua

I can see that you are really having problem with my reversion, Is my reversion not justifiable, I have been giving you ssues in christianty. When you are ready, let me know the area you and when there is going to be a Muslim-Christian debate, I will let you know so that you can pertake in it. If you care to know, I was born and bred as a christian, went to missionary school, lived in christian community. So its your world if you dont believe me.

If I have disappointed me, its ok by me.

When pilgrims started this thread asking questions, I provided enough verses on salvation in Islam.

I asked your brother questions, read his response

I didn't know my post was spurious. My answer to your question(s

#1. I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet sent by the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.

#2. I do actually believe that there is a Creator who is called 'Allah' in arabic; but as far as identities are concerned, the 'allah' of Islam is not the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.


The above shows that there is no way I can convince him since he is already determined or make up his mind never to believe in my prophet let alone believing in chapters or verses from the same book.

As for your post on salvation, do you need my rebuttal? Your response will dertermine if I will have to go back to your post or not.

babs787:

@jeshua

I can see that you are really having problem with my reversion, Is my reversion not justifiable, I have been giving you ssues in christianty. When you are ready, let me know the area you and when there is going to be a Muslim-Christian debate, I will let you know so that you can pertake in it. If you care to know, I was born and bred as a christian, went to missionary school, lived in christian community. So its your world if you don't believe me.

If I have disappointed me, its ok by me.

When pilgrims started this thread asking questions, I provided enough verses on salvation in Islam.

I asked your brother questions, read his response

I didn't know my post was spurious. My answer to your question(s

#1. I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet sent by the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.

#2. I do actually believe that there is a Creator who is called 'Allah' in arabic; but as far as identities are concerned, the 'allah' of Islam is not the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.


The above shows that there is no way I can convince him since he is already determined or make up his mind never to believe in my prophet let alone believing in chapters or verses from the same book.

As for your post on salvation, do you need my rebuttal? Your response will dertermine if I will have to go back to your post or not.

it sure means you didnt read them at all. I like that word reversion, but there was never any time you were a christian (go back and read my post). you went to a missionary school, fine but you didnt have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
i have read some of your post, prophecy and the rest, you don't seem to know very well the issues you were pointing out. there is a law that is called-continuos revelation-it says everything must beread together and adjudged together. the bible can't be read in parts and so conclude that you know the whole story-it is not nigerian movies where you can calculate the whole event from the word go.
I AM NOT HAVING A DEBATE YOU CALL- MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN DEBATE.
Over what? I don't know.
I understand you better now. but I am sorry to dissapoint you: NOBODY IS BORN A CHRISTIAN, WE BECOME "CHRISTIANS BY ACCEPTING JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOUR. God doesnt have a grandchild, al who have been regenrated are sons and daughters of God through Christ Jesus.
I f you were born by a Pastor and you lived and die in the Church without Christ jesus as Lord and saviour, you are sure going to hell.
For you to say my response will determine if you go back to my post shows, you JUST WANT PEOPLE TO READ YOUR POST BUT YOU ACTUALLY DONT READ THEIR RESPONSES.
I don't have to continue this-
I have final word for you- REVELTAIONS 22:11-15

@jeshua

it sure means you didnt read them at all. I like that word reversion, but there was never any time you were a christian (go back and read my post). you went to a missionary school, fine but you didnt have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

Honestly you are having real problem with that. If you dont know I was part and a strong member while I was a christian. I told you that I was a christian,born as a christian by christian parents etc, so if you dont believe its your problem, why dont you ask some christians that are claiming to have converted. Did you read any post of muslims having problems with Shahan, but it seems it pains you when you learn that someone has left your darkness called religion.


i have read some of your post, prophecy and the rest, you don't seem to know very well the issues you were pointing out. there is a law that is called-continuos revelation-it says everything must beread together and adjudged together. the bible can't be read in parts and so conclude that you know the whole story-it is not nigerian movies where you can calculate the whole event from the word go.

Havent I been giving you verses in which you yourself have not come across? Didnt a fellow christian like you challenged you. Why must you cover truth with falsehood. I decided to lay most of the thread to rest but if you still want to continue, nothing moves babs, it is okay by me. If you are not contented with that, I can as well give you failed prophecy in your OT and you will read from the beginning and tell me your understanding of the verses.


I AM NOT HAVING A DEBATE YOU CALL- MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN DEBATE.
Over what? I don't know.

I thought you are the new professor or the most knowledgeable of them all. I can see that you surfaced when most of the threads have been laid to rest but if you are ready for a fresh start, babs is ready too. If you are not for debate then, why are you here?


I understand you better now. but I am sorry to dissapoint you: NOBODY IS BORN A CHRISTIAN, WE BECOME "CHRISTIANS BY ACCEPTING JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOUR. God doesnt have a grandchild, al who have been regenrated are sons and daughters of God through Christ Jesus.

This man doesnt know anything. I had Jesus as my lord and saviour, received your so called Holy spirit, I go about preaching the word of God etc but through my quest for knowledge, I got to know that all the doctrines preached are lies and most of the so called attributes have been shared by some pagans and were input into the bible in order to create special attribute for Jesus. I dont want to go further into that, I have posted many threads on falsehood preached in christianity and the last thread is on crucifixion which you all coudnt defend. I got to know further that all the prophets came with one religion and one message. So you cant accept a prophet and deny the other. As for Jesus, you only need to grab the Quran and compare the story of Jesus to that of the Bible. Gwet yourself a Quran, read for yourself and you will learn that Islam has been misunderstood. I rest my case here.

I f you were born by a Pastor and you lived and die in the Church without Christ jesus as Lord and saviour, you are sure going to hell.
For you to say my response will determine if you go back to my post shows, you JUST WANT PEOPLE TO READ YOUR POST BUT YOU ACTUALLY DONT READ THEIR RESPONSES.

I had Jesus then, but realised that the Jesus I have now is the real Jesus. Christianity are committing grievous sin and unless they accept the last prophet and the last book, no paradise. On that day, Jesus will deny you because you are not a jew, he wasnt sent to you. I wonder where you will be on that, when all those prophets will gather their community and Jesus gathers the Jews including the twelve tribes. Muslims believe in Jesus, respect him so much and name a chapter after his mother. I am  not here to preach to you but to let you know that you cannot put wool over me. Gone are those days when babs was deceived, but now, I can tell you that TRUTH STANDS OUT FROM FALSEHOOD. Let me rest my case here.


For you to say my response will determine if you go back to my post shows, you JUST WANT PEOPLE TO READ YOUR POST BUT YOU ACTUALLY DONT READ THEIR RESPONSES


Let me clarify my statement if you do not understand.  I dont indulge in any debate in order to win but simply for the benefit of those that will check this website after I might have died or occupied with something else. I went through your post but learnt that you failed in addressing the issues, you went beating about the bush and saying nothing at the end and I decided to let the thread be hence my telling you to wait till after champions league final but you thought that I post in order for people to read, far from that brother. When you posted that thread, I didnt say anything but told you to wait, but in my post today, I told you that If you wanted my rebuttal that you should made it known. Of course you should know that falsehood cant overcome truth, if you need my response to your post, I can equally provide reply and let us see that there is no certain or sure way of getting salvation in christianity, most verses contradicted each other. So if you need my comment on that, I will surely provide but on your request.


I don't have to continue this-
I have final word for you- REVELTAIONS 22:11-15

As regards your post above, you should examine yourself. Funny enough, I have some verses in your book of revelation that you will need to explain and after that we will explore the books of John (all his books).

Cheers  

@babs787,

babs787:

You are right that one needs not be a Muslim in order to engage in dialogue or debate but as for me, I don't believe in fruitless debate. Dont you think that it will be an endless debate because at the end of the day you will stick to your belief regardless of the facts being tendered? You are already inclined to your belief and doesnt belief in any other prophet and book aside Jesus and Bible, so arguing with you will be a sheer waste of time.

It's really a simple case. The point of a debate is to try and persuade people to your point and perspectives, whether or not they hold to your views previously. If they already held your views and convictions, why even engage in a debate in the first place?

Now, isn't it sort of quizzical that you are in the same situation that you allege about me? No matter how much people have tried to share their views and perspectives with you, there just has to be something that you'd bring up to further the argument in an effort to maintain your already held convictions. If you require that others be a little condescending towards your convictions at the expense of their own, why is it difficult for you to offer the same acquiescence towards them?

babs787:

If you or other christians want to know about my belief as regards salvation, I have provided enough verses up, you only need to read them. As for salvation in christianity, I didnt want to push further because you have told me that you don't believe in my prophet and Allah, so to be candid with you, I wont indulge in debate with anyone that doesnt believe in my God and at the end of the day heaps insult on my God.

I've carefully gone through your interpretation of the verses that convince you about the salvation offered in Islam. Honestly, I don't find a consistency in them at all - and that is precisely why I asked questions, offering some other verses from Islam's holy books that were of concern to me. You don't suppose that I would have to take a Muslim position to debate issues you argued against Christianity, when infact I am a Christian!

I didn't enter this Forum to castigate any religion; and I've engaged fellow Christians in debates as well, in the belief that we can all thrash out issues without over-reaching ourselves. However, did you ever sit back for a moment to realize that you often tend to ridicule Christ and the Christian faith by the way you respond to issues? I guess your answer would be 'No,' but you can't deny that you have ever castigated Jesus, can you? Not even once?

babs787:

You are not ready to know more than what you have already known. So if you believe that christianity, bible or jesus is the only way to salvation, good luck, so be it.

No qualms. I have always tried to be open to intellectual exercises; and of such kind that do not involve over-reaching one's rationality. The arguments you have offered so far have not been convincing in conveying your persuasions. Can we hope to read some more informed discourses from you henceforth?

Cheers.

babs787:

I asked your brother questions, read his response

I didn't know my post was spurious. My answer to your question(s

#1. I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet sent by the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.

#2. I do actually believe that there is a Creator who is called 'Allah' in arabic; but as far as identities are concerned, the 'allah' of Islam is not the same God revealed to the Biblical prophets.


The above shows that there is no way I can convince him since he is already determined or make up his mind never to believe in my prophet let alone believing in chapters or verses from the same book.

Let's cut to the chase. I have consistently provided answers to questions; and how have your responses come back to demonstrate the YOU are willing to believe in the Biblical teachings of Jesus Christ the Son of God? We can start from Genesis to Revelation about Who Jesus Christ claimed to be in Himself; but what guarantee do we have that even that exercise will help you turn in faith to the Messiah for the offer of His saving grace - especially when you have a made-up mindset?

@all

the religious threads has resumed with immediate effect. So christians are free to post anything.


@Jesuah


don't think you actually read what I wrote, you said you have tried the two Religions but if you really followed my write up, you will see that I told you about Christianity as a religion which you and I have tried and discovered the same vacuum but i also told you another christ-like Life- Jesus said; "I have come that they might have life and life abundantly". he didnt come to offer a religion like Islam and every other religions but Life.


So if he didn’t come with religion as you said above, why is it that one must be a Christian before being saved?



You also said Pastors are confused about salvation, I don't actuallly think I know what you are trying to say. The Bible is very clear about salvation and if you feel confused then why don't you ask sincerely with a heart that wants to know the truth. Atleast the Quran told you ask from the "people of the book" if you were confused.


Where did you see that we should ask people of the book when we are confused. Let me have the verse please



just like you have Imams saying things contrary to the hermeneutics of the Quran so do you have people who may not understand what they are talking about. but you quoted, John 3:15-18, Jesus said those words to some one who thought like you he had tried Christ not knowing he only tried a religion. "The Drum beaters only announces the Masquerade but they are not the MAsquerade it self.

I have tried both brother and not only the two religion but other religions too.



There is no place where the Bible says "believe and be baptized to enter "PARADISE". Maybe you need to give chapter and verse. When the bible speaks of believe and be baptized, do you know into what the baptism entails? To you you think just dipping in water but the bible teaches that baptizing them into the name of Jesus Christ. The water doesnt save anybody, maybe you have beeen baptized before too, you only took a bath. Because when we are baptized, we are baptized into jesu, it is symbolic of what our spirit had done when we repent of our sins and accept that jesus Died in our stead on the cross and we give him our life and trust him to cleanse us. The baptism is into Jesus the annointed of God. by the way i have been baptized too, not take abth. I was saved before i was baptized and i showed the joining of my lspirit with the Spirit of christ by the water baptism.

Brother do not deceive me. Read

Mark 16 v 16: He who is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. The bible said baptizing them in the name of Jesus and not as you are claiming. The name of Jesus must follow the dipping into the water.

Ordinarily, John's baptism stood as a sign that one had repented of sin: "A baptism in token of repentance, for the forgiveness of sins" as in (Mark 1:4).  It is at this time that Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John  in (Mark 1:5, 9).

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.  (Mark 1:4)

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"  Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. (Matthew 3:13-15)

Did you see that? If are not baptized which is the dipping into the water, you will not be saved shouldn’t be taken for what you said up. Does that implies that Jesus was a sinner or what is the essence of baptism? If you are not baptized, no salvation for you.



Mark 16: 16 talks about baptizing into the name of the father, the son and the holy Spirit just like I told you, it only comes after you have believed because you faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ gives you salvation. The verses says is telling you that without baptism, you are not saved hence ‘he that is baptized is saved (dipping into the water while he that is not is condemned.

Read my response above,they were baptized in those names. Baptism first then other things followed but no salvation of them unless you are baptized.



James 2:14-15 was James address to a people who thought that because they were saved then they don't need to cater for the physical needs of people but just tell them to go and it is well, James said, if you anything to do to help, do it. Dont send the needy away saying that a miracle will happen when you have what he needs with you. Some times you see people who can help you but they ask you to fend for yourself because to them you still have a lot to learn in life and they are not ready to hand you the ticket free of charge. That is what was happenning to these people. James told them to show their good works too not just talk about faith. In a nutshell, he was saying show what you believe-if you say you have love in your heart show LOVE, if you say you are pursuing PEACE, then always seek for peace no matter what.


Did you read John 3v16; For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Did you see work here? He laid emphasis on faith while in the below verse:

Also read

1st John 2 v 1-6 where paul said that you shouldn’t sin and when you sin, you shouldn’t worry that you have Jesus. He goes further that nothing for you if you do not follow the commadments. The commandments in which Jesus said that if you follow them, you will enter paradise.

Here, Paul made it known that you must follow the commandments which is also work and not on only faith as being said in John 3 v 16.


The bible didnt talk about you being predestined for hell. The Bible says God does not wish that anyone should perish but it is your choice, I am sort of like amused at your quotation in the book of revelation, the Bible speaks of those who follow the Beast and are decieved and they end up perishing with him. Let me give you a better place Mat 25:41 “Then he will say  to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!. You don't go to hell because God wished it for you but because you refused to make the vital decision for Christ Jesus. But I know it is even Islam that is fatalistic in nature. You seem to be used to quoting out of context and adding what is not there. I don't think I see anything there that reads PARADISE. Jesus said that to some people who wanted to be his disciples but felt just like you that some things which he was saying was too difficult and hard to accept(read from verse 52).

Sir, I want you to be rest assured that I have bibles at home and so you shoudnt think of giving me anything aside what’s in the bible. Now this is self-explanatory

Further, in the books of Ephesians 1:4-6

Ephesians 1 v 5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will.

Also read Revelation 17 v 8:,,,… and the dwellers of earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, cos it was and is not and is to come.

What sort of translation are you giving the verse? The verse says dwellers of earth whose names are not written in the book from the beginning and you are trying to twist that. Don’t try to do that please.




Hope to hear from you again? You either accept or reject Jesu Christ because He is now the issue.

If jesus is the issue, I have Jesus already in my life.



@pilgrim

I couldn't agree more. Muslims will often tell you that they believe in ALL the revelations of the Biblical prophets (that is in reference to Qur'an 2:136); but in reality, they really do not believe in those revelations at all. That is why when asked where those revelations can be found today, they make the excuses that they are LOST, or have been corrupted. The question then is, why would 'Allah' be asking them to believe in revelations that are lost or have been corrupted??

Here you are with the issue of revelation again. Why bringing the issue when you couldn’t defend it?

Jeremiah 8 v 8: How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.  

Ve told you to read Deuteronomy 31:25-29 too

The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time.  But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message.  Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems.  They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe.  That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them.  A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out.  That is why ‘differences arose therein’.

As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it.  Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus.  Others believe it took 300 years.  In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy.  That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew, " instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew], " and so on.  Cases similar to this example exist in most of the NT of today, where they prove that the NT was not even written by its original authors.  It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful.  The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others.  The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc

In general, we Muslims believe that the current Torah and Injil are mixed between the true Words of GOD Almighty and man's corruption.  We also believe that the Bible had more truth in it during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time than what we have today.   That is why Allah Almighty was challenging some of the Jews and the Christians to refer to their Scriptures back then.




Anyone who carefully studies that Qur'an and ahadith cannot miss the fact that Muhammad himself used the very Scriptures of the Old Testament that the Jews used - especially the Torah given to Moses. The claim that the 'original' is LOST or corrupted is not true; and any Muslim holding on to that lie is revealing the fact that he/she believes nothing about the Biblical revelations/Scriptures; and that is why they make that claim contrary to what the Qur'an and hadith say.

Another question for you, must Christian follow the OT too? The Quran contains both the Torah and the Injil. I have answered you above, you only need to read again.


May God help them come to Jesus Christ for salvation before it is too late.

You should accept the last book and the last prophet before its too late.

Thanks



@Stimulus

The Jews are the people from which Jesus' lineage is traced, and let us not forget that this is in fulfillment of OT prophecies and not mere coincidence.

Matthew 1:21 points to the salvation Jesus would bring to the Jews. There are also OT prophecies declaring the same thing; and Psa. 130:8 is well known among the Jews: "And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities."

Are you a jew?


However, Scripture also speaks of the fact that the same salvation in Jesus Christ shall be offered to non-Jews - to all the nations of the world:

Isaiah 11:10 - "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Isaiah 52:10 - "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

Are the above verses for Jesus to Isreal?


Luke 24:46-47 - "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Brother try to understand scriptures before giving to me. The nations being referred to here are the twelve tribes of Israel and not to be mistaken for Gentiles cos during his, he had his work limited to Jews only. Luke wasnt even an eye witness, he made it known to you that it was written to Theophilus, I wonder if you are theophilus



The problem with the typical Muslim thinking lies in taking a few verses (usually out of context) and disregarding the rest in selective arguments. The idea that some verses are true and the others untrue carries no weight of persuasion; and the collective testimony of Scripture is that Jesus Christ is the Saviour both of Jews and Gentiles.

Who has really taken verses out of context between you and I now? Trying to fit a verse into a situation it doesn’t belong is taking a verse out of context which has been done by you up.


The Bible never said "Jews only will be saved"; for if that were true, then YOU babs787 are damned as well for being a non-Jew!

No brother I am not damned cos he was sent to Jews only.

Clearly, Jesus' statement was conveying the understanding that salvation comes from (or proceeds from) the Jews, and not from any other nation.

You are partially right. Salvation comes from the jews and ends with them. No involvement of gentiles here.


God had promised this salvation through Abraham, saying to the patriarch, "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 12:3). That promise was reiterated in Gen. 22:18 where God said to him: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

Didn’t he promise Ishmael about his nations too?




That this promise was to be fulfilled, not through the Arabs, but rather through the lineage of the Jews (through Isaac), is confirmed in Gen. 17:21 where God said: "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year". God further reaffirmed this in Gen. 21:12 when He said, "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."


Brother, did you read the verses on Ishmael with regards to promise made to him?


When Jesus made the statement of John 4:22 ("salvation is of the Jews", He was affirming the very same thing God had spoken severally right from Genesis. He did not mean at all that 'Jews alone will be save'; for His salvation is offered to whosoever believes - Jews and Gentiles. "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." (Isaiah 52:10).

Brother it seems you are confused with the word 'nations'. For your understanding, read Mathew 19 v 27-29 and you will get the clearer picture of antions. The nations comprises the twelve tribes of Israel in which Jesus will judge and not including gentiles. He will judge the nations of Israel cos he was sent to them.



It all depends what you mean by "follow" their holy books. The OT contains the prophecies of the redemption that was to come through the Messiah (e.g., Isaiah 9:6 and ch. 53). In the NT, we find their fulfillment (e.g., Gal. 4:4-5). As such, the OT typologies of sacrifices for sins do not continue as a literal observance; for they find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ, who Himself said He came to fulfill them for us (Matt. 5:17).

It seems you didn’t get me, If salvation is of the Jews, why don’t you follow their books, cos some chapters are in their book but not in your Testament.


Now, it would be such a towering display of ignorance for anyone to suggest that the OT sacrifices should take the place of Christ who has fulfilled them for us. It is clear from the OT itself that the sinaitic Law (the Law of Moses) did not take away sin (cf. Heb. 10:4 & 11 with Psa. 51:16 and Jer. 7:22-23). Those sacrifices only prefigured the perfect sacrifice we find in Jesus Christ, of whom it is said: "Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

Did Jesus says he came to die for your sin and your answer will be followed by questions to let you know that he is never aware of coming to die for your sin.


Certainly, there are principles of life in the OT from which we as Christians still learn from for our walk with God. But the OT worship under Judaism was never committed to Christians in the first place. That is why Jesus in the same John 4 clearly taught that true worshippers would no longer need to go to Jerusalem; but would rather worship the Father in spirit and in truth (vss. 21 & 23).

Brother didn’t Jesus say that he didn’t come to anul the law? Didn’t he command you to follow the commandments given to Moses? If you are staying glued to NT alone, does NT contain laws guiding Christian in life?



Since you make so much noise about this issue, do you as a Muslim follow the holy Book of the Jews? How come Muhammad's revelations from 'Allah' is so different from the revelations given unto the Jewish prophets?


The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time.  But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message.  Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems.  They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe.  That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed that took place between them.  A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out.  That is why ‘differences arose therein’.


I've answered you just above. You drew yourself (as you usually do) into this discussion and are trying to invite an unnecessary argument (as you usually do). So, you must be ready to answer several other questions that will be served you in exactly the same way that you have  been disingenuously calumniating the Christian faith.

Sure, no problem.


Dear babs787, open your eyes and read the whole of the NT - and read it in its context, instead of the usual way of Islamic selective thinking and argument. If you are readily happy to to quote one set of verses for your argument, be honest enough to admit to what the other set of verses say, even though you find yourself knotted.

I have done the reading and I am still doing it, infact be prepared for me on 2nd Timothy 3 v 16 and we will try other verses too from the beginning.


That said, John 3:16 was spoken by Jesus, and He is the only begotten Son of God. His mission was to the whole world, even though He first presented Himself to His people the Jews.

Brother, read again, it was john speaking. If someone is having a son, that son will be called both first and only son, do we say that of Jesus as being preached by John ‘the only begotten son’ is really the only BEGOTTEN SON?




I've carefully gone through your interpretation of the verses that convince you about the salvation offered in Islam. Honestly, I don't find a consistency in them at all - and that is precisely why I asked questions, offering some other verses from Islam's holy books that were of concern to me. You don't suppose that I would have to take a Muslim position to debate issues you argued against Christianity, when infact I am a Christian!

There will always be inconsistency as long as you are not ready to make enquiry into other faith. Go up, read my response to jeshua about salvation in Christianity and bring out for your area of inconsistency in Quran



I didn't enter this Forum to castigate any religion; and I've engaged fellow Christians in debates as well, in the belief that we can all thrash out issues without over-reaching ourselves. However, did you ever sit back for a moment to realize that you often tend to ridicule Christ and the Christian faith by the way you respond to issues? I guess your answer would be 'No,' but you can't deny that you have ever castigated Jesus, can you? Not even once?


I am sorry of that’s what you think, I have not been doing that but speaking from the point of my faith. Those threads you listed are not after ridiculing as your folks are trying to assume but to bring out some of the lies made to Jesus. Jesus whom I know is never a liar but most of these were written after his demise. These authors never knew him let alone witnessing his sayings. As for my castigating Jesus, have you been reading the posts of babyosis, davidylan, pataki, noisycheek etc? I never castigated him but speaking from the fact of Jesus that I know in my scripture. And if to you I have done that, I am sincerely sorry for that.


Peace.

Brother it seems you are confused with the word 'nations'. For your understanding, read Mathew 19 v 27-29 and you will get the clearer picture of antions. The nations comprises the twelve tribes of Israel in which Jesus will judge and not including gentiles. He will judge the nations of Israel because he was sent to them.

@All,
I once knew a man who "was born" a Christian, then he "became" a muslim, and even went to Mecca and "became" an Alhaji; later he "became" a Catholic; but to the glory of God, he has now "given his life" to Christ and is a born-again child (not slave) of God.
Probably blabs787 is not far behind: he appears to passionately have a heart to know God, but pride is still standing in his way. It also appears he's "read a lot in" the Bible (although lopsided), but he has not allowed the Bible "to read his heart" hence it is easy for him to get seriously confused as is seen in the above quoted statement. That is why he tries to "cross-reference" biblical passages with the Quran, and also try to validate Quranic claims with Biblical passages.
God himself is the father of all mercies and owner of salvation, I pray he will 'reveal' to you what you are looking for that is not lost only that blabs787 cannot recognise it yet. Confused? Seriously! Peace out

what do u mean by became a catholic and then a born again christian?

what are catholics?

viee:

what do u mean by became a catholic and then a born again christian?

what are catholics?

em, viee, this is a little off-topic but roman catholicism as a religion is not the same as being a born-again christian. Perhaps that's an issue for another thread.
I used to be a catholic, my parents still are, but now i'm a believer or a born-again christian by God's grace and I've stopped attending the roman catholic church.
However, i've met some catholics who i can say are born-again christians but still go to the roman catholic church, but i must say its a bit dicy. I definitely wouldn't do it.
If you want more clarification you can address it in another thread.

you can start by defining the term 'born again'
and why you think catholics are not that?

viee:

you can start by defining the term 'born again'
and why you think catholics are not that?

like i said, this is a thread about islam, and i dont want to change the topic. if you ask the question on another thread, i'd answer it.
Hope you're OK with that.

ricadelide:

like i said, this is a thread about islam, and i don't want to change the topic. if you ask the question on another thread, i'd answer it.

Thanks for remaining focused on the topic of this thread. I really appreciate that, as we should not give room for any deflections - which is what our Muslim friends would like us to do. 

I wonder why the poster have to post this,are yuou not tired of Islamic attack in the world?? their going to paradise is very simple, they just have to attack and die in the process and their paradise is assured for them , while you need to perform all kinds of austerities and charity to purify your life, and yet at that your heaven is not guarranteed.

@BillGatesFan,

Heaven is guaranteed for those who trust in Jesus Christ.

The question has been asked, I believe, as a matter for discussion. Islamic attacks may continue as long and as much as they wish, it won't change anything.

from batu

I once knew a man who "was born" a Christian, then he "became" a muslim, and even went to Mecca and "became" an Alhaji; later he "became" a Catholic; but to the glory of God, he has now "given his life" to Christ and is a born-again child (not slave) of God.
Probably blabs787 is not far behind: he appears to passionately have a heart to know God, but pride is still standing in his way. It also appears he's "read a lot in" the Bible (although lopsided), but he has not allowed the Bible "to read his heart" hence it is easy for him to get seriously confused as is seen in the above quoted statement. That is why he tries to "cross-reference" biblical passages with the Quran, and also try to validate Quranic claims with Biblical passages.
God himself is the father of all mercies and owner of salvation, I pray he will 'reveal' to you what you are looking for that is not lost only that blabs787 cannot recognise it yet. Confused? Seriously! Peace out

babs have been reading everything but NOT THE BIBLE he only patronises anti Christian websites to pick issues he doesn't understand and does not even bother to understand hence his reluctance to accept any explanation of Bible verses. He finds satisfaction in the illusion called islam

@poster
I believe the only thing that gurantee Salvation is FATE.
But if am 2 answer ur question according 2 my FATE,then my answer is YES.
I am not here 2 crucify any religion but i want us all 2 know that religion alone cannot gurantee the eternal glory of heaven.
My Fate makes me believe that "Except U submit totally 2 the will of God,U can not enter His paradise."
And it makes me 2 know  that "Except a man dies as a MUSLIM,he can not enter the kingdom of God."

Then
Who is a muslim?
What is Islam?
What r d articles of Faith?
What r d Islam ways of Life?
Except u r a muslim,u might not be able 2 ans all these n  cannot know what a Muslim believes.
Islam does not support fornication nor adultery.
It does not welcome drinking nor smoking.
If u follow the Holy Quran,u will know that Islam is a complete way of life,and  A real muslim lives his life in complete Remembrance of Allah(SWT) and thus alwaz conscious of his doings

All prophets r sent as a reminder n each one of them leave behind a gr8 lesson of their lifetime. What we should be asking ourselves is "R U a true follower of who u claim"
Note
Believe strongly in what u know n learn that wc u know not.
May Allah(SWT) direct us 2 d rght path(Amin)
Ma salam

@zai,

zai:

@poster
I believe the only thing that gurantee Salvation is FATE.

Quite a tragedy! Unless, of course, you meant to say "FAITH" instead.

zai:

And it makes me 2 know that "Except a man dies as a MUSLIM,he can not enter the kingdom of God."

My belief is that, except you personally know the convicting power of the Holy Spirit in your heart, there's no entering the Kingdom of God - John 3:3-5.

zai:

Then
Who is a muslim?
What is Islam?
What r d articles of Faith?
What r d Islam ways of Life?
Except you're a muslim,u might not be able 2 ans all these n cannot know what a Muslim believes.

Infact gaaan, you have just listed out some of the questions I've been hoping Muslims will honestly answer! Please, no hypocritical answers, no drama, and no nonsense - just straight honest talk from all things considered.

Yes??

zai:

@poster
I believe the only thing that gurantee Salvation is FATE.
But if am 2 answer your question according 2 my FATE,then my answer is YES.

To say "faith" is the only thing that guarantees salvation is not enough, faith in what? How does one acquire this "faith"?

zai:

My Fate makes me believe that "Except U submit totally 2 the will of God,U can not enter His paradise."
And it makes me 2 know  that "Except a man dies as a MUSLIM,he can not enter the kingdom of God."

The irony of the above is how eeriely close it sounds to "Except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God".

1. Did allah promise muslims a "kingdom" or is this another subtle attempt to force christian concepts into the islam? What are the attributes of the muslim jaanat that qualifies it as a kingdom since there are no thrones there, no sons (only slaves), no kings and princes, no crowns, allah cannot be seen and it is nothing more than a booze and sex-fest?

2. What if a sinner dies as a muslim? Does he still qualify for your "kingdom of God"?

zai:

Islam does not support fornication nor adultery.

It pretends to do so on earth but actively encourages it in "heaven".

zai:

It does not welcome drinking nor smoking.

You are absolutely right yet it promises "believers" rivers flowing with alchohol in heaven!

zai:

All prophets r sent as a reminder n each one of them leave behind a great lesson of their lifetime. What we should be asking ourselves is "R U a true follower of who u claim"

Here is the problem. Who are those "all prophets"? Who sent them, to whom and when? Where are there books and revelations? why are they not in the quran or does allah not consider their message as important as that of mohammed?

Faith without work is dead.

God bless you brother!

Whst essentially is the Islamic salvation?

These Islamic men can rejoice all they want for the promise of Islamic heaven.
Has anyone stopped to wonder about the virgins?
who is speaking out for justice for these sex slaves with regenerating hymen?

Infact, I'm beginning to wonder what exactly is the guarantee of salvation (or any other "promise" in Islam. What is the basis of such a guarantee, if any?

A few more of my concerns in addition to those raised by zai:

#1. Is it true that all muslims will enter HELL?

Qur'an 19:71:
And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord. (Shakir's tr.)
And there is not one of you but will come to it. This is an absolute decree of thy Lord. (Sher Ali)
There shall be none of you but shall descend into the same [hell]: [This] is an established decree upon thy Lord. (Sale's Tr.)


#2. Is it true that Muhammad rescinded on his assertion to intercede for Muslims?

#3. How could a sex offender and thief still enter paradise if they died in their sins?

#4. Who among Muslims can be sure that his/her good deeds outweigh their evil deeds?

#5. What about al-taqiyya: will all those who practised it still enter paradise if they died in their al-taqiyya?

#6. What exactly is the best of deeds that GUARANTEES paradise to a male Muslim?


-------------------------------

Meanwhile, where's oyb?  

Meanwhile, where's oyb?

digging oil trenches in bayelsa

@Gwaine


Infact, I'm beginning to wonder what exactly is the guarantee of salvation (or any other "promise" in Islam. What is the basis of such a guarantee, if any?

A few more of my concerns in addition to those raised by zai:

#1. Is it true that all muslims will enter HELL?

  Qur'an 19:71:
  And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord. (Shakir's tr.)
  And there is not one of you but will come to it. This is an absolute decree of thy Lord. (Sher Ali)
  There shall be none of you but shall descend into the same [hell]: [This] is an established decree upon thy Lord. (Sale's Tr.)


Just like your brother stimulus, the verse above is talking about the Great Bridge called As-sirat in which everybody will pass over it to the other side and under it will be Hell. All believers will pass over it according to the quality of their deeds while the unbelievers will fall into it.


#2. Is it true that Muhammad rescinded on his assertion to intercede for Muslims?

NO


#3. How could a sex offender and thief still enter paradise if they died in their sins?


Does that mean David, Judah, etc will go to Hell? When you provide your answer, I will shed more light on the above.



#4. Who among Muslims can be sure that his/her good deeds outweigh their evil deeds?

Brother, so you dont know about your deeds? You dont know if your bad deeds outweight your good deeds?


#5. What about al-taqiyya: will all those who practised it still enter paradise if they died in their al-taqiyya?


Please what is your understanding of Al-Taqiyyah?


#6. What exactly is the best of deeds that GUARANTEES paradise to a male Muslim?

Male Muslims?Please be specific and tell me where you are going.