^^^ This does not address my post in anyway, you are only trying to twist my post to suit what you think you can easily argue with. Unfortunately for you, you keep showing that my assertions about you are correct!

The question still remains, abrogated or caused to be forgotten (with all the possible opinions about what it means), Since you want to make this an issue of Naskh and Mansukh, does it mean that Allah (SWT) forgets (audhubullah min dhalik) as you claimed?!

When you are ready to answer the question, let me know.

@empiree, e ku ise o

Empiree:
Nonsense! The only one who could tell us that a verse of Qur'an was removed was prophet Muhammad (saw) himself. No one else has the authority.

So abrogations of verse that Quran is talking about refers to previous Books like your Bible and Torah.

Read these hadith first before making your conclusion: sahih bukhari 4:52:69 and sahih bukhari 3:31:170. I am not the one that compiled the hadith.

This ayah talked about abrogation: quran 16:101 and quran 13:39.

sino:


No, there is a difference between asking questions and revelation came down to answer and a fictitious claim about being the one writing your own words to be revelation! The blind man didn't claim to have received revelation, nor did he influence the outcome, he only asked a question and answers were provided through revelation. What is the purpose of having a Prophet amongst you if you cannot ask questions and get response via revelation?! Perhaps when you understand this, you would not keep trying to force your Christian propagandist views about the Qur'an and what you think is interference in the cause of revelation.

How do you want me to address your ignorance in claiming that a hadith is surely fabricated?! Are you now an Islamic scholar of hadith?!

No, neither are you; we are all learners. You are twisting the context of the hadith to validate your claim and this is wrong. A revelation was given and was later modified after an objection was raised by a man.

true2god:
No, neither are you; we are all learners. You are twisting the context of the hadith to validate your claim and this is wrong. A revelation was given and was later modified after an objection was raised by a man.

Lol, yeah objection is the context of the narration, the blind man was already consulting his lawyers to sue! Talk about twisting to validate claims...

sino:


Lol, yeah objection is the context of the narration, the blind man was already consulting his lawyers to sue! Talk about twisting to validate claims...

In modern democracy he can do that. The Arabs of that period are backward and medivial in nature.

true2god:
In modern democracy he can do that. The Arabs of that period are backward and medivial in nature.

Okay noted! Thanks!

sino:
^^^ This does not address my post in anyway, you are only trying to twist my post to suit what you think you can easily argue with. Unfortunately for you, you keep showing that my assertions about you are correct!

The question still remains, abrogated or caused to be forgotten (with all the possible opinions about what it means), Since you want to make this an issue of Naskh and Mansukh, does it mean that Allah (SWT) forgets (audhubullah min dhalik) as you claimed?!

When you are ready to answer the question, let me know.

@emp.iree, e ku ise o

Lol, ise ke

Anyways, on behalf of albaqir (attachments)

Empiree:
This is for Sino.

I am posting on behalf of albaqir. He got caught by spambot. This was his reply to you.

Al-baqir is spreading fitnah by Allah. Al-baqir it is better for you to stop these things, if only I knew Arabic I would have read the Arabic wording of those Hadith for myself. Thanks very much for this post @Empiree even though it was intended for @sino but it revealed @Al-baqir's intention of refusing the facts, even though he is the one that sent the write up himself. This has shown that Muslims really need to learn Arabic language if not criminals disguised as a scholars will mislead us.

As-salamualaikum.

najib632:
Al-baqir is spreading fitnah by Allah. Al-baqir it is better for you to stop these things, if only I knew Arabic I would have read the Arabic wording of those Hadith for myself. Thanks very much for this post @Empiree even though it was intended for @sino but it revealed @Al-baqir's intention of refusing the facts, even though he is the one that sent the write up himself. This has shown that Muslims really need to learn Arabic language if not criminals disguised as a scholars will mislead us.

As-salamualaikum.

He is not spreading fitna by exposing some absurdities in 'sahih' buhhari. You have to open your mind to realities.

Empiree:
Lol, ise ke

Anyways, on behalf of albaqir (attachments)

@AlBaqir,

This was my post:

"Allah (SWT) Says:

“Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah you have neither any Walee (protector or guardian) nor any helper.”

[al-Baqarah 2:106-107]

I guess this also means Allah (SWT), in your own words, forgets?! I just hope you really understand sincerely the implications of your deeds on here, whatever you think you want to gain here wouldn't help you in any way on the day you account for them!"

Instead of addressing my question, you went on with arguing about Naskh and Mansukh! It is you that wanted to turn this to an issue of abrogated verses must be in the Qur'an and what is meant by forgotten verses, not me, now you are crying foul! But this doesn't sway me at all, your deceitfulness is well established on this section.

I will help you understand my question properly, so you will not have a place to hide. Since you believe in Naskh and Mansukh, which means Allah (SWT) changed what He (SWT) had revealed earlier, does it mean Allah (SWT) forgot (in your own logic as applied to this narration in question) what He (SWT) ought to have revealed in the first instance?!

Answer the question!

najib632:
Al-baqir is spreading fitnah by Allah. Al-baqir it is better for you to stop these things, if only I knew Arabic I would have read the Arabic wording of those Hadith for myself. Thanks very much for this post @Empiree even though it was intended for @sino but it revealed @Al-baqir's intention of refusing the facts, even though he is the one that sent the write up himself. This has shown that Muslims really need to learn Arabic language if not criminals disguised as a scholars will mislead us.

As-salamualaikum.

You should take your time to read topics he had authored on this section, and see for yourself, the reason it is important to address some of his issues not necessarily for him to change his opinion, but for others who might not know better.

Thus far, just one hadith he had claimed to be fabricated he cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt, he has no scholar to back up his claims, but based on mere sentiments and how he feels about what the hadith means. If this was the way of our predecessors about the religion, we wouldn't even know what Islam is!

wa alaykum salam.

true2god:
He is not spreading fitna by exposing some absurdities in 'sahih' buhhari. You have to open your mind to realities.

I am sure people like me with little knowledge had already started believing him. SubuhanalLah I really started believing it.

najib632:
I am sure people like me with little knowledge had already started believing him. SubuhanalLah I really started believing it.

First, my advice for you is seek knowledge before involving yourself into controversial issues. And when you are seeking knowledge, do not be fanatical or rigid about what you have been taught. If truly you are truth seeking type, you should have a broad heart to research and investigate various opinions and views.

Second, this saying of Imam Ali ibn Abi Taalib will guide you in your quest for truth:


IMAM ALI IBN ABI TAALIB TO AL-HARITH (DURING THE BATTLE OF JAMAL)


And in the narration of Amaali of (sheik) Al-Mufid:-

And Al-Harith said to him (i.e Imam Ali): My father and mother be your ransom, could you (further clarify so as to) remove the filth from our hearts, and (to) make us as sure about our affair as seeing with one's eyes?"

He (Imam Ali, alayhi salam) said: That is enough for you. You are possessed by confusion. The religion of Allah is not recognized through men, but through a sign of truth. So, know the truth and you shall know it's people."

Reference: Al-Aamali of Sheik al-Mufid 3/5, Majmu' al-Bayan 1/112, Rawdat al-Waaitheen p 39.
 
 http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA


Lastly, Islam is very simple to practice. If your usul-din (belief in God, Prophet and last day), furu'u-din (salat, fasting, zakat and hajj - if you are able) and righteous deeds are intact, you are very much okay for those are real passport to Jannah as clearly stated in the Qur'an.

Whether you accept ahadith compiled 100s of years after the Prophet by Bukhari or whoever is NEVER an important issue. Sunnah of the Prophet had been well established ever before there is any hadith compilation. What we do here on Nairaland (between real students of knowledge and internet copy-pasters) is secondary. Bottom line, focus on primaries (usul and furu) and do not engage yourself in what you have no knowledge about.

You are free to take the advice or discard it. The choice is yours.

Wa salam alaykum

AlBaqir:


First, my advice for you is seek knowledge before involving yourself into controversial issues. And when you are seeking knowledge, do not be fanatical or rigid about what you have been taught. If truly you are truth seeking type, you should have a broad heart to research and investigate various opinions and views.

Second, this saying of Imam Ali ibn Abi Taalib will guide you in your quest for truth:


IMAM ALI IBN ABI TAALIB TO AL-HARITH (DURING THE BATTLE OF JAMAL)


And in the narration of Amaali of (sheik) Al-Mufid:-

And Al-Harith said to him (i.e Imam Ali): My father and mother be your ransom, could you (further clarify so as to) remove the filth from our hearts, and (to) make us as sure about our affair as seeing with one's eyes?"

He (Imam Ali, alayhi salam) said: That is enough for you. You are possessed by confusion. The religion of Allah is not recognized through men, but through a sign of truth. So, know the truth and you shall know it's people."

Reference: Al-Aamali of Sheik al-Mufid 3/5, Majmu' al-Bayan 1/112, Rawdat al-Waaitheen p 39.
 
 http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA


Lastly, Islam is very simple to practice. If your usul-din (belief in God, Prophet and last day), furu'u-din (salat, fasting, zakat and hajj - if you are able) and righteous deeds are intact, you are very much okay for those are real passport to Jannah as clearly stated in the Qur'an.

Whether you accept ahadith compiled 100s of years after the Prophet by Bukhari or whoever is NEVER an important issue. Sunnah of the Prophet had been well established ever before there is any hadith compilation. What we do here on Nairaland (between real students of knowledge and internet copy-pasters) is secondary. Bottom line, focus on primaries (usul and furu) and do not engage yourself in what you have no knowledge about.

You are free to take the advice or discard it. The choice is yours.

Wa salam alaykum

wa alaikum salaam

AlBaqir:
SUNDAY FOR CHRISTIANS

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (s) said, "We are the last (to come) but we will be the foremost on the Day of Resurrection, nations were given the Book (i.e. Scripture) before us, and we were given the Holy Book after them. This (i.e. Friday) is the day about which they differed. So the next day (i.e. Saturday) was prescribed for the Jews and the day after it (i.e. Sunday) for the Christians. It is incumbent on every Muslim to wash his head and body on a Day (i.e. Friday) (at least) in every seven days."


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3486, 3487
In-book reference : Book 60, Hadith 153
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 693
 https://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/60/153


For a clear fact, early Christians do not worship on Sunday. They only observe the traditional Sabbath as the jew do. It was the Church that switched sabbath from Sarurday to Sunday. This was switched to correspond to the alleged rissen of Jesus from the dead on sunday.

Never prescribed by Allah.

AlBaqir:


Never prescribed by Allah.

The Western world, especially Europe, is abandoning their Christian root for multiculturalism, atheism, liberalism, LGBT rights, Islam, capitalism and 'democracy'. It will be very difficult to know where this changes, the current social engineering, will lead to. I think it won't end well in the long run.

true2god:
The Western world, especially Europe, is abandoning their Christian root for multiculturalism, atheism, liberalism, LGBT rights, Islam, capitalism and 'democracy'. It will be very difficult to know where this changes, the current social engineering, will lead to. I think it won't end well in the long run.

bye bye to CHRISTIANITY

Empiree:
bye bye to CHRISTIANITY

Yes ooo.

true2god:
The Western world, especially Europe, is abandoning their Christian root for multiculturalism, atheism, liberalism, LGBT rights, Islam, capitalism and 'democracy'. It will be very difficult to know where this changes, the current social engineering, will lead to. I think it won't end well in the long run.

Actually Christianity failed the society in different ways and naturally people seek "alternatives". The fake Islam we are preaching and practising in southwest Nigeria is also failing as people run more to Christianity since atheism is not prevalent in our society. Southwest Churches are far more smarter than mosques with various tactics while Muslim cleric's style of preaching and practising of Islam is irritating. If atheism comes, there is likelihood, southwest might become another western world.

AlBaqir:


Actually Christianity failed the society in different ways and naturally people seek "alternatives". The fake Islam we are preaching and practising in southwest Nigeria is also failing as people run more to Christianity since atheism is not prevalent in our society. Southwest Churches are far more smarter than mosques with various tactics while Muslim cleric's style of preaching and practising of Islam is irritating. If atheism comes, there is likelihood, southwest might become another western world.

How does Christianity fail the society? I would like you to throw more light on this.

The fact is that most western nations, where there is a separation between the church and state, are drifting towards materialism, atheism, liberalism and capitalism and I don't know why blame it on Christianity. The fruit of these changes are the increase in material possessions, acquisition of more knowledge and decay in the moral fabric of the society. And note that the Muslim world are migrating to the west to enjoy these changes and benefits. If Christianity has failed the society, what has Islam provided?

On the south west Nigerian Muslims, they are 1000% more tolerant than their northern counterpart. It is safer to stay among the Yoruba Muslims than the Hausa or Fulani Muslims (who has a very high propensities for bloodletting and violence). I don't know the criteria you used to come to the conclusion that the western Nigerian Muslims are fake. If western Nigerian Muslims are running towards Christianity, perhaps they see satisfaction and spiritual fulfilment in it.

People have different social behavior and tend to channel their religious beliefs towards a belief system that allow them express such behaviors more easily.

Laughing...

Shia, sufi, Mumayiun, christians..

Debating about the authenticity of Sheikh Al islIs bukhari compilation of hadith..



Laughing so hard...


. just like a bricklayer arguing with a surgeon on the part to cut when doing kidney transplant..


Very funny..

true2god:
How does Christianity fail the society? I would like you to throw more light on this.

The fact is that most western nations, where there is a separation between the church and state, are drifting towards materialism, atheism, liberalism and capitalism and I don't know why blame it on Christianity. The fruit of these changes are the increase in material possessions, acquisition of more knowledge and decay in the moral fabric of the society. And note that the Muslim world are migrating to the west to enjoy these changes and benefits. If Christianity has failed the society, what has Islam provided?

On the south west Nigerian Muslims, they are 1000% more tolerant than their northern counterpart. It is safer to stay among the Yoruba Muslims than the Hausa or Fulani Muslims (who has a very high propensities for bloodletting and violence). I don't know the criteria you used to come to the conclusion that the western Nigerian Muslims are fake. If western Nigerian Muslims are running towards Christianity, perhaps they see satisfaction and spiritual fulfilment in it.

People have different social behavior and tend to channel their religious beliefs towards a belief system that allow them express such behaviors more easily.

# Christianity started its failure since the time of the reign of the Church where the faith was antagonistic of science. The more science grew in the west, the more Christianity loses its bases. The two are not compatible.

# On the other hand, the Church moral atrocities also made people lost hope in faith. If not for the revolution of Martin Luther which brought about Protestant, Christianity would have gone to its oblivion in the west.

All these and more paved way for other "ism" to establish their roots. Stats showed old people are adherents of Christianity today compare to the young folks in the western world.


# And when you talk about western material developments, it was NEVER EVER as a result of their Christian faith that paved way for such. Some of western earliest and today's scientists were/are not really believers. Some even faked to be believers to escape church persecution. Today with more freedom, it is far easier for them to reject Christian faith.

# Interestingly, you dare ask "muslim's contributions" to the development of the "world". While the Western world were in abject ignorance, their Muslim counterparts were distinct with various form of technological and scientific inventions. The basis of western scientific and technical achievement today are traced back to the Muslims scholars/scientists. And of course, west tried her best to stole those inventions and plundered Africa of her wealth to actualized her stolen inventions.


# Coming back home. Nigeria or Africa Muslims are thousand of years behind. The kind of Christianity and Islam we embraced and practicing were fake to the fullest. Christianity of today is making wave in Africa owing to the superstition and abject poverty in this region. Same story in North America. Africans always see problems and challenges from spiritual perspectives. Church banked on that by introducing deceitful and magic "miracles". Some introduced wealth to entice and lure people and preach prosperity. Hence, the rising and increase of Christian population in the southwest Nigeria. Besides, Muslims are very weak in faith propagation than their Christian counterparts.

Islam is more of a religion of reality that talks and argue on conviction and rationality. Naturally, in an environment of ignorance and poverty, such religion doesn't really work unlike academic environments. Hence, you could see Islam is the fastest growing religion in the western world. You can understand the need for the "western world orders" to fight it via propaganda and introduction of wahabism by the British.

Islam is growing in the northern part of Nigeria as a result of excessive child bearing and multiple marriage. When you see a man with 10, 20, 30, 40 etc children compare to the western Nigeria or esstern Christians. Thats something on its own. Besides, Islam is more or less been established as a culture in the north than being a religion.

Western Nigeria because of her education and enlightenment have prospect of being Muslim dominant (if not presently) by the time true Islamic teachings are more preached and propagated compare to the present distasteful propagation and emergence of useless scholars.

AlBaqir:



# Christianity started its failure since the time of the reign of the Church where the faith was antagonistic of science. The more science grew in the west, the more Christianity loses its bases. The two are not compatible.

# On the other hand, the Church moral atrocities also made people lost hope in faith. If not for the revolution of Martin Luther which brought about Protestant, Christianity would have gone to its oblivion in the west.

All these and more paved way for other "ism" to establish their roots. Stats showed old people are adherents of Christianity today compare to the young folks in the western world.


# And when you talk about western material developments, it was NEVER EVER as a result of their Christian faith that paved way for such. Some of western earliest and today's scientists were/are not really believers. Some even faked to be believers to escape church persecution. Today with more freedom, it is far easier for them to reject Christian faith.

# Interestingly, you dare ask "muslim's contributions" to the development of the "world". While the Western world were in abject ignorance, their Muslim counterparts were distinct with various form of technological and scientific inventions. The basis of western scientific and technical achievement today are traced back to the Muslims scholars/scientists. And of course, west tried her best to stole those inventions and plundered Africa of her wealth to actualized her stolen inventions.


# Coming back home. Nigeria or Africa Muslims are thousand of years behind. The kind of Christianity and Islam we embraced and practicing were fake to the fullest. Christianity of today is making wave in Africa owing to the superstition and abject poverty in this region. Same story in North America. Africans always see problems and challenges from spiritual perspectives. Church banked on that by introducing deceitful and magic "miracles". Some introduced wealth to entice and lure people and preach prosperity. Hence, the rising and increase of Christian population in the southwest Nigeria. Besides, Muslims are very weak in faith propagation than their Christian counterparts.

Islam is more of a religion of reality that talks and argue on conviction and rationality. Naturally, in an environment of ignorance and poverty, such religion doesn't really work unlike academic environments. Hence, you could see Islam is the fastest growing religion in the western world. You can understand the need for the "western world orders" to fight it via propaganda and introduction of wahabism by the British.

Islam is growing in the northern part of Nigeria as a result of excessive child bearing and multiple marriage. When you see a man with 10, 20, 30, 40 etc children compare to the western Nigeria or esstern Christians. Thats something on its own. Besides, Islam is more or less been established as a culture in the north than being a religion.

Western Nigeria because of her education and enlightenment have prospect of being Muslim dominant (if not presently) by the time true Islamic teachings are more preached and propagated compare to the present distasteful propagation and emergence of useless scholars.

Wonderful insight! Thumb up.

AlBaqir:



# Christianity started its failure since the time of the reign of the Church where the faith was antagonistic of science. The more science grew in the west, the more Christianity loses its bases. The two are not compatible.

Yes, science and religion never mixed unless you can prove to me that Islam is both equally religious and scientific in nature. Islamic countries stifle scientific thought as well hence the stagnation in science and technology virtually in all the Muslim world. If free thinking and criticism of religious beliefs are encouraged in the Muslim world, most Muslims will apostatize.

AlBaqir:
# On the other hand, the Church moral atrocities also made people lost hope in faith. If not for the revolution of Martin Luther which brought about Protestant, Christianity would have gone to its oblivion in the west.

The word 'moral atrocities' is a big word to make any logical argument here. Before you accuse the Christian of 'moral atrocities', look into the muslims' MORAL ATROCITIES as well. The sunnis killed the entire family of the prophet of Islam, and the shia also believed that Mohammed was killed by Abu Bakr but used the Jewish people to cover-up their atrocities. Never throw a stone if you live in a glass house.

AlBaqir:
All these and more paved way for other "ism" to establish their roots. Stats showed old people are adherents of Christianity today compare to the young folks in the western world.

Yes, older people moves towards religion as a result of the limited time they have left on earth and only natural to prepare for the life beyond. It is common in both religious and non-religious people. In the Muslim world, especially Iran and Egypt, young people hardly go to mosque and million are turning to atheism but have to stay in the closet for fear of 'apostasy' or 'blasphemy' punishment.

AlBaqir:
# And when you talk about western material developments, it was NEVER EVER as a result of their Christian faith that paved way for such. Some of western earliest and today's scientists were/are not really believers. Some even faked to be believers to escape church persecution. Today with more freedom, it is far easier for them to reject Christian faith.

Yes you are right but most identify themselves as cultural Christians. Before the British industrial revolution, most of their young educated men were both theologians and scientist (Michael Faraday and the rest). And the European scientific revolution started when the church moved away from the central control of the papacy while more Protestant churches came into the picture which resulted into the increase I both philosophical and scientific taught. Both atheist and Muslims (allies in the evil of imposition of multi-cultural taught in modern Europe) also try to downplay or erase the role of the church in the advancement of the modern man.

AlBaqir:
# Interestingly, you dare ask "muslim's contributions" to the development of the "world". While the Western world were in abject ignorance, their Muslim counterparts were distinct with various form of technological and scientific inventions. The basis of western scientific and technical achievement today are traced back to the Muslims scholars/scientists. And of course, west tried her best to stole those inventions and plundered Africa of her wealth to actualized her stolen inventions.

Islam is not a race but a religion. None of the scientist in the medieval Muslim world came from Saudi Arabia or Yemen (the traditional home of Islam). Most notable scientist during the early years of the caliphate are either Iranians, Jewish or Chaldeans living under the authority of the khalifa. The Iranians, the Jews and the Romans were not 'bushmen' or 'barbarians' before Islam. These people were already advanced in the scientific knowledge available to them then; it has nothing to do with Islam. The Islamic taught, both in terms of religious beliefs and tech development, have hardly changed for more than 900 years. Hence most Muslim countries became stagnated.

AlBaqir:
# Coming back home. Nigeria or Africa Muslims are thousand of years behind. The kind of Christianity and Islam we embraced and practicing were fake to the fullest. Christianity of today is making wave in Africa owing to the superstition and abject poverty in this region. Same story in North America. Africans always see problems and challenges from spiritual perspectives. Church banked on that by introducing deceitful and magic "miracles". Some introduced wealth to entice and lure people and preach prosperity. Hence, the rising and increase of Christian population in the southwest Nigeria. Besides, Muslims are very weak in faith propagation than their Christian counterparts.

I don't get your point bro! Most of what you have in the hadith are also superstitions. In one of the hadith, it was narrated by the prophet that satan sleeps in the nose of Muslims and a special prayer must be made when one woke up and Muslims must watch their noses to remove the satan in the nose. In another hadith it was also narrated that the prophet does not allow pictures at home because angels dont visit such homes. Are these not superstition in your most trusted religious text? True, many churches are using 'kalamojay' to hoodwink their member, but you need to accept the fact that many Islamic sheik are also doing same. Just that the Christians seem to package their 'hustles' better and are more subtle in their trade.

AlBaqir:
Islam is more of a religion of reality that talks and argue on conviction and rationality. Naturally, in an environment of ignorance and poverty, such religion doesn't really work unlike academic environments. Hence, you could see Islam is the fastest growing religion in the western world. You can understand the need for the "western world orders" to fight it via propaganda and introduction of wahabism by the British.

If you say Islam is a religion of REALITY, CONVICTION and RATIONALITY I will only laugh. You are only over-patronizing your religion and all your claims cannot stand up to scrutiny. Can you tell me how and when Islam becomes the religion of REALITY, CONVICTION and RATIONALITY? These are subjective claims that have no place in reality bro! Only your fellow Muslims, who want their ego inflated, will believe such a thing.

AlBaqir:
Islam is growing in the northern part of Nigeria as a result of excessive child bearing and multiple marriage. When you see a man with 10, 20, 30, 40 etc children compare to the western Nigeria or esstern Christians. Thats something on its own. Besides, Islam is more or less been established as a culture in the north than being a religion.

Yes, 100% agreed. However, the high birth rate also contributed to the extreme poverty and ignorance prevalent in the northern part of Nigeria.

AlBaqir:
Western Nigeria because of her education and enlightenment have prospect of being Muslim dominant (if not presently) by the time true Islamic teachings are more preached and propagated compare to the present distasteful propagation and emergence of useless scholars.

What do you mean by 'true Islam'? Is it ignorance, poverty, violence and intolerance? You are talking like a Jehovah's witness who is expecting the kingdom of God on earth, which is an illusion.

true2god:
Yes, science and religion never mixed unless you can prove to me that Islam is both equally religious and scientific in nature. Islamic countries stifle scientific thought as well hence the stagnation in science and technology virtually in all the Muslim world. If free thinking and criticism of religious beliefs are encouraged in the Muslim world, most Muslims will apostatize.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

If religion and science "never" in your thought, how come Bible and Quran talk about various aspect of science?

Those who are at fault are the interpreters of these "divine books". Some do not even comprehend the book or science itself yet want to talk about the two.

Anyway, I was not talking about religion vs science per se, I was talking about "the Church" and their crusade against science and scientists since their interpretation of certain aspects of religion (for example flatened unrotated world) were opposed by the scientists then. Many of the scientists were burnt alive, some hung for opposing "God" in the "church" interpretation.

I am of the opinion that divine religion are there to guide science in its theories and applications.


# There is an aspect of Islamic study called "kalam and falsafah islami - Theology and Islamic philosophy". It dealt with "isms": atheism, facism, communism etc. You can get a glimpse of my discussion with an atheist in one of my threads. In short, in Islam, there is no compulsion in religion. However, as much as Islam is ready to discuss and debate any "ism", it draws line. In an Islamic society, atheist or homosexuals who choose to propagate their ideas publicly are not tolerated. What you do within the 4 corners of your house is strictly your problem. The reason why Islam is intolerant to those mentioned above is about protecting the society (especially people with weaker minds) from their ideas.

true2god:

The word 'moral atrocities' is a big word to make any logical argument here. Before you accuse the Christian of 'moral atrocities', look into the muslims' MORAL ATROCITIES as well. The sunnis killed the entire family of the prophet of Islam, and the shia also believed that Mohammed was killed by Abu Bakr but used the Jewish people to cover-up their atrocities. Never throw a stone if you live in a glass house.

Kindly read through the lines. I didn't mention "Christian immorality". I only mentioned "Church immorality". And thst continues till date.

true2god:

Yes, older people moves towards religion as a result of the limited time they have left on earth and only natural to prepare for the life beyond. It is common in both religious and non-religious people. In the Muslim world, especially Iran and Egypt, young people hardly go to mosque and million are turning to atheism but have to stay in the closet for fear of 'apostasy' or 'blasphemy' punishment.

What do you know about Iran? Nothing. Who told you her young ones hardly go to mosques, and that millions are turning to atheism? I live in Iran for your information. I have first hand information based on what I see. Unfortunately, people like you only depend on propaganda and fake news you read on the internet.

Iran produced best of the best Muslim philosophers and theologians. There is no single matter that arise in the world today without their scholars cutting it into piece. Of recent, Sayyid Kamal Haydari (who is an Iraqi cleric but based in Iran) discussed and shred into pieces all the submission of Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawking about Atheism. Iranian youths on the street will debate a grand master atheist. So, it is only on the page of fake news website that you are reading "Iranian and Egyptian" youths are turning atheists. That only happens in the western world since Christianity has not only lost its values but also cannot withstand atheist reasoning and submissions. For example there is absolutely nothing rational in 3 in 1 God that Christianity preaches. It is irrational.

true2god:

Islam is not a race but a religion. None of the scientist in the medieval Muslim world came from Saudi Arabia or Yemen (the traditional home of Islam). Most notable scientist during the early years of the caliphate are either Iranians, Jewish or Chaldeans living under the authority of the khalifa. The Iranians, the Jews and the Romans were not 'bushmen' or 'barbarians' before Islam. These people were already advanced in the scientific knowledge available to them then; it has nothing to do with Islam. The Islamic taught, both in terms of religious beliefs and tech development, have hardly changed for more than 900 years. Hence most Muslim countries became stagnated.

Give yourself a homework please and research into Muslim medieval scientists. Only then you will know whether their scientific knowledge was influenced by Islamic thought or not. Let me give you an example: Father of Chemistry, Jabir ibn Hayyan (known as Geber in the west) was a student of Imam Jafar Sadiq (the 6th Shia Imam) in Madina. It was the Imam that adviced and guide him to start research and studies into Chemistry. He discovered many things that are the basis and fundamentals of today's chemistry. Other western Chemists simply built on his work.

Father of Medicine, Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd. The former book, "Canon of Medicine" was used up till early 19th century in the west. According to his biography, he discovered many medical breakthroughs via reading Qur'an I can go on and on bro.

So your wish that it is not Islam that influenced those Muslim scientists per se is thrash.

true2god:

I don't get your point bro! Most of what you have in the hadith are also superstitions. In one of the hadith, it was narrated by the prophet that satan sleeps in the nose of Muslims and a special prayer must be made when one woke up and Muslims must watch their noses to remove the satan in the nose. In another hadith it was also narrated that the prophet does not allow pictures at home because angels dont visit such homes. Are these not superstition in your most trusted religious text? True, many churches are using 'kalamojay' to hoodwink their member, but you need to accept the fact that many Islamic sheik are also doing same. Just that the Christians seem to package their 'hustles' better and are more subtle in their trade.

Anyway, I am not discussing hadith here. Besides, I need to remind you that this very thread exposes some fallacies and fabrications called hadiths.

true2god:


If you say Islam is a religion of REALITY, CONVICTION and RATIONALITY I will only laugh. You are only over-patronizing your religion and all your claims cannot stand up to scrutiny. Can you tell me how and when Islam becomes the religion of REALITY, CONVICTION and RATIONALITY? These are subjective claims that have no place in reality bro! Only your fellow Muslims, who want their ego inflated, will believe such a thing.



Yes, 100% agreed. However, the high birth rate also contributed to the extreme poverty and ignorance prevalent in the northern part of Nigeria.



What do you mean by 'true Islam'? Is it ignorance, poverty, violence and intolerance? You are talking like a Jehovah's witness who is expecting the kingdom of God on earth, which is an illusion.

# If you think Islam is not rational, convincing and on reality, challenge any of its teachings and see if you can withstand its submission. Should we start about God by comparing the attributes of Christian God with Islam God? I bet you bro, you will run. Bring any topic.

Here's my debate with an atheist about "God":
https://www.nairaland.com/4641276/argument-possibility-necessity-does-god

I am a student of Islamic Philosophy by the way. Therefore, I will welcome any aspect of rationality, reality and conviction I boasted Islam is based on.

# The birth rate does not contribute to extreme poverty in the north. Society failed such population. Northern elders are the richest in Nigeria, in Africa and among those in the world. Yet, their region is ravaged by poverty. Stingyness, selfishness, feudal dominance are what is making the North poor not birth rate.


# By true Islam, I meant what the Prophet of Islam actually preached not the interpretation of today's scholars which they labeled "Islam". We.have various scholars with varying and opposing interpretations on a subject today. Could that be Islam? Two or more opposites cannot make right. Only Islam is right and true.

AlBaqir:


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

That is his personal opinion and very subjective. Most scientists do not agree with him. The old USSR and China made great stride in scientific development without any form of religion.

AlBaqir:
If religion and science "never" in your thought, how come Bible and Quran talk about various aspect of science?

The Bible is not a book science. Can you provide, from the Bible, where science was discussed? I am not talking about crude geographical knowlegde available to the Jewish people then.

AlBaqir:
Those who are at fault are the interpreters of these "divine books". Some do not even comprehend the book or science itself yet want to talk about the two.

Most of the interpreters, I believe, understood their book and interpreted it based on their human understanding. Most interpreters agreed with some conflict between religion and science, while others tried to make their scriptures conform to modern science. Modern science never tried to conform to religion but religion always do.

AlBaqir:
Anyway, I was not talking about religion vs science per se, I was talking about "the Church" and their crusade against science and scientists since their interpretation of certain aspects of religion (for example flatened unrotated world) were opposed by the scientists then. Many of the scientists were burnt alive, some hung for opposing "God" in the "church" interpretation.

Yes, during the dark ages, it happened because of the Church was centrally controlled by Rome and all scientific thought are made to conform to the church whims and caprices. All scientists were expected to tailor their research IFO her beliefs and doctrines. However, it all changed after the reformation by Martin Luther. Hence in Europe, science was encouraged and developed without central control from Rome. Europe became a technological power after that while Europe still maintained its 100% christian identity.

The Bible never said the earth is flat (Isaiah 40:22) but the papacy, being in conflict with non-clergy Christians on this issue, made it an anathema to go against their official position on this. The Pope was the one persecuting the church here. Mind you, the quran said the earth is spread out like a carpet.

AlBaqir:
I am of the opinion that divine religion are there to guide science in its theories and applications.

'Divine religion' has a role to provide the spiritual and the moral need of the society. Religion can never guide scientific thought and/or experiments. I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.

AlBaqir:
There is an aspect of Islamic study called "kalam and falsafah islami - Theology and Islamic philosophy". It dealt with "isms": atheism, facism, communism etc. You can get a glimpse of my discussion with an atheist in one of my threads. In short, in Islam, there is no compulsion in religion. However, as much as Islam is ready to discuss and debate any "ism", it draws line. In an Islamic society, atheist or homosexuals who choose to propagate their ideas publicly are not tolerated. What you do within the 4 corners of your house is strictly your problem. The reason why Islam is intolerant to those mentioned above is about protecting the society (especially people with weaker minds) from their ideas.

Yes, Islam in an Islamic society, is both the state and the religion that covers both the moral, economic, military, sanitary and even educational life of the society. And if I say Islam is an intolerant religion, I mean the relationship between Islam and other faith/belief. Islam divides the world into the Ummah and the kafir, just as the Jews divide the world into 'the Jews' and 'the Gentiles'.

AlBaqir:
Kindly read through the lines. I didn't mention "Christian immorality". I only mentioned "Church immorality". And thst continues till date.

"Church immorality" is synonymous to "Christian immorality". You can't call one a bad name and tell him you are refer to his dog. Use a better adjective.

AlBaqir:
What do you know about Iran? Nothing. Who told you her young ones hardly go to mosques, and that millions are turning to atheism? I live in Iran for your information. I have first hand information based on what I see. Unfortunately, people like you only depend on propaganda and fake news you read on the internet.

Iranians are leaving for the west, in their millions, as a result of the Ayatolla's policy against religious view, especially Islam. Most anti-Islam activist on the internet are either atheist or agnoist who have to leave Iran for fear of being killed. Stop leaving in denial; an apostate Muslim will not come out openly in Iran. There is no religious freedom in Iran bro.

AlBaqir:
Iran produced best of the best Muslim philosophers and theologians. There is no single matter that arise in the world today without their scholars cutting it into piece. Of recent, Sayyid Kamal Haydari (who is an Iraqi cleric but based in Iran) discussed and shred into pieces all the submission of Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawking about Atheism. Iranian youths on the street will debate a grand master atheist. So, it is only on the page of fake news website that you are reading "Iranian and Egyptian" youths are turning atheists. That only happens in the western world since Christianity has not only lost its values but also cannot withstand atheist reasoning and submissions. For example there is absolutely nothing rational in 3 in 1 God that Christianity preaches. It is irrational.

You are partially right when it comes to Iranians being well informed. To me, they are the most educated among the Muslims world. You however went off tangent by drawing the issue of the trinity into the discussion. This is a christian theology that had been upheld before the prophet of Islam was born.

AlBaqir:
Give yourself a homework please and research into Muslim medieval scientists. Only then you will know whether their scientific knowledge was influenced by Islamic thought or not. Let me give you an example: Father of Chemistry, Jabir ibn Hayyan (known as Geber in the west) was a student of Imam Jafar Sadiq (the 6th Shia Imam) in Madina. It was the Imam that adviced and guide him to start research and studies into Chemistry. He discovered many things that are the basis and fundamentals of today's chemistry. Other western Chemists simply built on his work.

Stop exaggerating the works of Muslim medival scientist. If they are so great most Muslim world will be great in science and technology today, but unfortunately the opposite is through. As a matter of fact, virtually all the scientist and engineers, whose laws and works are quoted in all schools worldwide, as from the christian west.

AlBaqir:
Father of Medicine, Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd. The former book, "Canon of Medicine" was used up till early 19th century in the west. According to his biography, he discovered many medical breakthroughs via reading Qur'an I can go on and on bro.

I will read about this. Mind you black Africans were equally treating themselves of various ailment before the advent of Christianity and Islam.

AlBaqir:
So your wish that it is not Islam that influenced those Muslim scientists per se is thrash.

Most of the medival Muslim scientist were great not because of religion but because of their quest for scientific knowledge. The Japanese are technological superpower not because the are Shintoist or Buddhist but by sheer hardwork, R&.

AlBaqir:
Anyway, I am not discussing hadith here. Besides, I need to remind you that this very thread exposes some fallacies and fabrications called hadiths.

You can't separate the hadith from Islam. Over 80% of Islam beliefs and practices are found in the hadith, not the quran.

AlBaqir:
If you think Islam is not rational, convincing and on reality, challenge any of its teachings and see if you can withstand its submission. Should we start about God by comparing the attributes of Christian God with Islam God? I bet you bro, you will run. Bring any topic.

I didn't make a claim that Islam is not rational, convincing and on reality. I only asked you to prove your claims with facts.

AlBaqir:
Here's my debate with an atheist about "God":
https://www.nairaland.com/4641276/argument-possibility-necessity-does-god

I need not this diversion please.

AlBaqir:
I am a student of Islamic Philosophy by the way. Therefore, I will welcome any aspect of rationality, reality and conviction I boasted Islam is based on.

Good, congrats! You can throw more light on your claims.

AlBaqir:
The birth rate does not contribute to extreme poverty in the north. Society failed such population. Northern elders are the richest in Nigeria, in Africa and among those in the world. Yet, their region is ravaged by poverty. Stingyness, selfishness, feudal dominance are what is making the North poor not birth rate.

That is the impact of religion and culture on any given society. Northern elders represents less than 1% of the entire population who control both the economic and the financial resources. It is a cultural thing in Islam for the Emirs, Ayatollas and the mullas to control the poor masses. This same game is being played out in the Arab gulf states. Most northern elders stole from the state resources and not through hardwork and innovation.

AlBaqir:
By true Islam, I meant what the Prophet of Islam actually preached not the interpretation of today's scholars which they labeled "Islam". We.have various scholars with varying and opposing interpretations on a subject today. Could that be Islam? Two or more opposites cannot make right. Only Islam is right and true.

If the 'scholars' today cannot get their theology right, it is either the religion itself is not self-explanatory or the founder did not provide adequate knowledge to guide the future adherants. Whichever way, a so-called perfect religion cannot, at the same time, be a very confusing religion among it members.

true2god:

The Bible is not a book science. Can you provide, from the Bible, where science was discussed? I am not talking about crude geographical knowlegde available to the Jewish people then.

I've never alleged that Bible is a book of science. I said it talks about certain aspects of science. Anyway, you can read online: "The Bible, the Quran and Science" by Dr. Maurice Buccaile.

true2god:

'Divine religion' has a role to provide the spiritual and the moral need of the society. Religion can never guide scientific thought and/or experiments. I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.

Sometimes you find things difficult to comprehend. If I say religion should be a guide for science, how on earth would you think my thoughts is on "laboratory experimental practices"?! Chai! That's a low thought man. It really show you do not even know the role of religion. That's why you quickly put aside Albert Einstein's quote. You do not equally grab what his quote meant. Do yourself a service by reading books on "religion and science".

Note, there are various field of science and religion could indeed be a guide in all of them.

true2god:

Yes, Islam in an Islamic society, is both the state and the religion that covers both the moral, economic, military, sanitary and even educational life of the society. And if I say Islam is an intolerant religion, I mean the relationship between Islam and other faith/belief. Islam divides the world into the Ummah and the kafir, just as the Jews divide the world into 'the Jews' and 'the Gentiles'.

Another polemic thought. Islam as a religion tolerate religious freedom. There were Christians and Jews in Madina at the time of the Prophet. Only those Prophet fought were those out of hatred of Islam joined hands with the polytheists of Makkah and bridged their agreement of peace with the Prophet.

Islam never takes it light with those who chose to cause oppression and corruption on the earth.

That is Islam. The story might change and indeed did changed when certain Muslim rulers launched their barbaric jihad or passed their fatawa. Their case is so serious that they can't even tolerate their fellow Muslims of another ideology as them. Then how can they tolerate other faith? Do not miscrue Muslim rulers with Islam.

true2god:

"Church immorality" is synonymous to "Christian immorality". You can't call one a bad name and tell him you are refer to his dog. Use a better adjective.

If the word "Church" is used especially referring to the Christian history, it refers to the Roman Catholic Church history. It was later that the Protestant distinguished and separated themselves out of "the Church".

Interestingly, you yourself have used it in your above reply. So I wonder why you try to defend it again. "The church" is different from "The Christian" for the later encompasses all denominations of christiandom.

true2god:

Iranians are leaving for the west, in their millions, as a result of the Ayatolla's policy against religious view, especially Islam. Most anti-Islam activist on the internet are either atheist or agnoist who have to leave Iran for fear of being killed. Stop leaving in denial; an apostate Muslim will not come out openly in Iran. There is no religious freedom in Iran bro.

Ayatullah's policy against religious view? What is that? Many Iranians before the "Ayatullah's" Islamic revolution have been in the west. So why would you peg your polemic thought that it was "Ayatullah's policy" that is driving "Iranians in their millions " to the west?

Few people in every country go to the west for two reasons:

1. Greener pastures

2. "Western freedom"

Iranian economy is weak due to 40 years economic sanctions imposed on it. Therefore, it is natural for some Iranian youths to travel abroad. You know your countrymen better the way they also run to the west.
Besides, some Iranians also go to the west to study, return back home and help his/her country. I am also a Nigeria in diaspora in the field of learning.

And on the other hand, those who chose Western life of "freedom" leave for west to live their lives to the fullest. It's a free world. Those who chose to remain at home and are contended with "The Ayatullah's policy" are at home leaving their lives. Why is that an Armageddon of the brain for you bro? It's a free world.

Interestingly, there are many westerners coming to Iran to study those "Ayatullah's policy". Lobatan.

# For your information, Iran is the ONLY country in the Muslim world that allow freedom of religion despite being Muslim majority. Their are Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians in Iran worshipping in their respective places of worship. Besides, each of these religious denominations have representatives in Iran house of parliament.

To God who made me, some Iranian pastors came to my hawza (Islamic university) last month for a conference and I had the chance of speaking with them.

Islam and Iran did not stop you from choosing what you want so long you do not cause fitnah. Let me school you further: In Iran, there are cities predominantly of Sunni population with Shia minority. Iranian constitution is that there should be nothing like "Sunni mosque" or "Shia mosque". One mosque for all and the Imam will be from the majority in that particular environment. And to avoid religious violence, it is against the law to publicly preach what will incite the anger of either sect. For example, Ayatullah Kamal Haydari's program was banned from national Tv when it was "anti-Sunni". Iran believe such discussion is not meant for public consumption rather it is to be discussed in the classroom or research centers among learned.

Now, How can a country like that allow atheism with their weird ideas publicly? Such idea is gonna hurt feelings of some people. If any "Iranian atheists" wants discussion and debate with Islam, offices of maraji' are always open for such. Why chose to disturb others with your distant thought?

true2god:

Stop exaggerating the works of Muslim medival scientist. If they are so great most Muslim world will be great in science and technology today, but unfortunately the opposite is through. As a matter of fact, virtually all the scientist and engineers, whose laws and works are quoted in all schools worldwide, as from the christian west.

You are either very ignorant of history or you are being driving by sentiment.

Muslim cities were once the leading cities in various aspect of science and learning which brought them huge development. Their western counterparts were.still in abject ignorance with witchcraft and superstition dominating their environments. Islam ruled Spain for 950 years (If I am not mistaken) and then Spain was far on top of European countries.


Today, why reverse is the case in Muslim world? It was your Christian west that destroyed the Muslim's Ottoman Empire (the last Muslim Empire) that brought many development to the Muslim world. Your Christian west stole many Muslim inventions and looted Africans dried to bring about their industrial and science revolution. Nearly all Christian scientists of the western world only worked on existing achievements of the Muslim scientists. And they tried to suppress those Muslim's scientists. You never heard of the name Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, Farabi, Jabir ibn Hayan, Al-Qawarizmi (father of Algebra) etc. What you hear today is Michael Faraday, Isaac Newton, Etc.


And today, your Christian west are making sure Muslims don't go back to their past glory. They continue to create evil for the Muslim world while their media do the propaganda of all sort.

true2god:

I will read about this. Mind you black Africans were equally treating themselves of various ailment before the advent of Christianity and Islam

That's not a further mathematics to accept. What I am telling ya is that Muslims influenced by Islamic thought established the basis of modern MEDICINE. Your Christian west only "stole it" and make it theirs.

true2god:

You can't separate the hadith from Islam. Over 80% of Islam beliefs and practices are found in the hadith, not the quran.

When people like you thinks you know Islam more than Muslims, then we should be expecting such polemic thought as above.

Islam is on three stands:

1. Beliefs - Aqaeed, This is the fundamentals of Islam (Usul al-Din)

2. Practice - Principles of Islam (furu'u deen)

3. Muamalat

All Muslim beliefs are in the Quran not hadith. All Muslim practices (furu) are commanded by the Quran and Islamic fiqh demonstrated them. For your information, Prophet's Sunnah (NOT oral and writing saying - hadith) was practically passed from generation to generation till date. The testimony to this is that ALL muslim's practices had been in full existence and were being practiced ever before hadiths are writing down centuries after the demise of the Prophet. For example the supposedly author of sahih bukhari was born 200 years after the death of the Prophet. And interestingly his alleged book of hadith compilation was compiled 150 years after his own demise.

true2god:

That is the impact of religion and culture on any given society. Northern elders represents less than 1% of the entire population who control both the economic and the financial resources. It is a cultural thing in Islam for the Emirs, Ayatollas and the mullas to control the poor masses. This same game is being played out in the Arab gulf states. Most northern elders stole from the state resources and not through hardwork and innovation.

Sorry, is it your Dad that is controlling the wealth of Nigeria? Whether "In Islam" or any other government, there are some saddled with the responsibility of administration of public funds. What I am telling you is that northern elders do not discharge their responsibility truthfully and that is what led to the abject poverty of their environment not "bearing of excess children".

true2god:

If the 'scholars' today cannot get their theology right, it is either the religion itself is not self-explanatory or the founder did not provide adequate knowledge to guide the future adherants. Whichever way, a so-called perfect religion cannot, at the same time, be a very confusing religion among it members.

Another polemical thought. How many people followed Jesus Christ during his time? How many of his 12 disciples comprehend him? The thieves, 419ers, babalawos, con-artists of today calling themselves Pastors; do you blame Christianity and its teachings or you blame Jesus Christ for their atrocities?

Please think deep before you write.

AlBaqir:


I've never alleged that Bible is a book of science. I said it talks about certain aspects of science. Anyway, you can read online: "The Bible, the Quran and Science" by Dr. Maurice Buccaile.

I will appreciate if you can explain the aspects of science the Bible talks about. Subjective opinion/writing should not be used as a reference.

AlBaqir:
Sometimes you find things difficult to comprehend. If I say religion should be a guide for science, how on earth would you think my thoughts is on "laboratory experimental practices"?! Chai! That's a low thought man. It really show you do not even know the role of religion. That's why you quickly put aside Albert Einstein's quote. You do not equally grab what his quote meant. Do yourself a service by reading books on "religion and science".

Albert Einstein is not a religious scholar and some of his opinions have been debunked in the science circle. As a said earlier, science never depended on religion to validate their claim but religion depend on science to proof their religious text. Where religious writings are scientifically wrong, religious people are always arrogant to accept the failure on their part.

AlBaqir:
Note, there are various field of science and religion could indeed be a guide in all of them.

Mentions the areas; I want to learn.

AlBaqir:
Another polemic thought. Islam as a religion tolerate religious freedom. There were Christians and Jews in Madina at the time of the Prophet. Only those Prophet fought were those out of hatred of Islam joined hands with the polytheists of Makkah and bridged their agreement of peace with the Prophet.

The prophet said he will expel the Jews and the Christians from the Arabian peninsula and he did it. This is intolerance and evil which the saudi govt has maintained till now. The the Jews and the Christians were in mecca and Medina before Mohammed/Islam.

AlBaqir:
Islam never takes it light with those who chose to cause oppression and corruption on the earth.

This is in quran 5:33. 'Oppression and Corruption' is a function of whose policy must reign supreme. E.g, if I dont believe in Allah and his messenger, eat pork, don't pay zakat, etc, these can be considered 'oppression and corruption' in the land which can lead to Islamic threat and violence (Quran 9:29, Read the tafsir of Ibn kathir on this)

AlBaqir:
That is Islam. The story might change and indeed did changed when certain Muslim rulers launched their barbaric jihad or passed their fatawa. Their case is so serious that they can't even tolerate their fellow Muslims of another ideology as them. Then how can they tolerate other faith? Do not miscrue Muslim rulers with Islam.

The Muslim rulers are simply following the sunnah of the prophet; the first rightly guided khalifa gave an insight of what Islam is all about. Don't blame subsequent rulers for doing all what the prophet and the sahabas already did.

AlBaqir:
If the word "Church" is used especially referring to the Christian history, it refers to the Roman Catholic Church history. It was later that the Protestant distinguished and separated themselves out of "the Church".

Interestingly, you yourself have used it in your above reply. So I wonder why you try to defend it again. "The church" is different from "The Christian" for the later encompasses all denominations of christiandom.

Thanks for the clarification.

AlBaqir:
Ayatullah's policy against religious view? What is that? Many Iranians before the "Ayatullah's" Islamic revolution have been in the west. So why would you peg your polemic thought that it was "Ayatullah's policy" that is driving "Iranians in their millions " to the west?

Few people in every country go to the west for two reasons:

1. Greener pastures

2. "Western freedom"

Iranian economy is weak due to 40 years economic sanctions imposed on it. Therefore, it is natural for some Iranian youths to travel abroad. You know your countrymen better the way they also run to the west.
Besides, some Iranians also go to the west to study, return back home and help his/her country. I am also a Nigeria in diaspora in the field of learning.

And on the other hand, those who chose Western life of "freedom" leave for west to live their lives to the fullest. It's a free world. Those who chose to remain at home and are contended with "The Ayatullah's policy" are at home leaving their lives. Why is that an Armageddon of the brain for you bro? It's a free world.

Interestingly, there are many westerners coming to Iran to study those "Ayatullah's policy". Lobatan.

You will agree with me that the current social order, in Iran, is the handiwork of the "Ayatullah's policy". Iran should make peace with their sunni neighbors and stop developing nuclear weapons. Most Iranian youths are very smart, look western and hardworking but the effect of the sanctions is pulling them back. It is shocking to hear that westerners are going to Iran to learn "Ayatullah's policy"; very funny and interesting.

AlBaqir:
For your information, Iran is the ONLY country in the Muslim world that allow freedom of religion despite being Muslim majority. Their are Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians in Iran worshipping in their respective places of worship. Besides, each of these religious denominations have representatives in Iran house of parliament.

To God who made me, some Iranian pastors came to my hawza (Islamic university) last month for a conference and I had the chance of speaking with them.

Good to hear that. I also wish they remove apostasy law from their religious penal code. I have however read and watched many Christians being arrested for their faith in Iran.

AlBaqir:
Islam and Iran did not stop you from choosing what you want so long you do not cause fitnah. Let me school you further: In Iran, there are cities predominantly of Sunni population with Shia minority. Iranian constitution is that there should be nothing like "Sunni mosque" or "Shia mosque". One mosque for all and the Imam will be from the majority in that particular environment. And to avoid religious violence, it is against the law to publicly preach what will incite the anger of either sect. For example, Ayatullah Kamal Haydari's program was banned from national Tv when it was "anti-Sunni". Iran believe such discussion is not meant for public consumption rather it is to be discussed in the classroom or research centers among learned.

I may preach what you don't like which, to Muslims, will be an incitement or corruption in the land. What must one do to avoid causing fitna?

AlBaqir:
Now, How can a country like that allow atheism with their weird ideas publicly? Such idea is gonna hurt feelings of some people. If any "Iranian atheists" wants discussion and debate with Islam, offices of maraji' are always open for such. Why chose to disturb others with your distant thought?

Then there is no thought freedom if atheist are arrested and jailed for their beliefs. Atheist equally regarded we religious people as being delusional and irrational. Human beings will never have a uniform view about life and faith. Iranians are oppressive to dissident religious view that are against the officially sanctioned messages.

AlBaqir:
You are either very ignorant of history or you are being driving by sentiment.

Muslim cities were once the leading cities in various aspect of science and learning which brought them huge development. Their western counterparts were.still in abject ignorance with witchcraft and superstition dominating their environments. Islam ruled Spain for 950 years (If I am not mistaken) and then Spain was far on top of European countries.


Today, why reverse is the case in Muslim world? It was your Christian west that destroyed the Muslim's Ottoman Empire (the last Muslim Empire) that brought many development to the Muslim world. Your Christian west stole many Muslim inventions and looted Africans dried to bring about their industrial and science revolution. Nearly all Christian scientists of the western world only worked on existing achievements of the Muslim scientists. And they tried to suppress those Muslim's scientists. You never heard of the name Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, Farabi, Jabir ibn Hayan, Al-Qawarizmi (father of Algebra) etc. What you hear today is Michael Faraday, Isaac Newton, Etc.

The Roman empire, The greek philosophers and scientist, were well advanced in science and art long before Islam came into the picture. Even during the dark ages when the church stifled scientific thought, Rome was well ahead of the Arab Muslims. I dont know where you guys get your patronizing argument: the mosques or madrassas?

AlBaqir:
And today, your Christian west are making sure Muslims don't go back to their past glory. They continue to create evil for the Muslim world while their media do the propaganda of all sort.

Nobody is stopping the Muslim world from progressing. How much do the Muslim world spend on scientific research and development , and how much do they spend in building mosques and madrassas worldwide? While China, Japan, Korea, the US and Europe spend billions of dollars in scientific research and development, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, uae, Iran, etc spend billions of dollars building mosque worldwide. How do you want the Muslim world to develop? Stop blaming and start acting.

AlBaqir:
That's not a further mathematics to accept. What I am telling ya is that Muslims influenced by Islamic thought established the basis of modern MEDICINE. Your Christian west only "stole it" and make it theirs.

You are parroting the same narrative Muslims are fed to make them look good and boost their ego. Revising history will not help Muslim world advance but facing current global reality. Oil will soon be useless.

AlBaqir:
When people like you thinks you know Islam more than Muslims, then we should be expecting such polemic thought as above.

I know Islam more than many Muslims. As a matter of fact, many Muslims are ignorant of their text and history.

AlBaqir:
Islam is on three stands:

1. Beliefs - Aqaeed, This is the fundamentals of Islam (Usul al-Din)

2. Practice - Principles of Islam (furu'u deen)

3. Muamalat

All Muslim beliefs are in the Quran not hadith. All Muslim practices (furu) are commanded by the Quran and Islamic fiqh demonstrated them. For your information, Prophet's Sunnah (NOT oral and writing saying - hadith) was practically passed from generation to generation till date. The testimony to this is that ALL muslim's practices had been in full existence and were being practiced ever before hadiths are writing down centuries after the demise of the Prophet. For example the supposedly author of sahih bukhari was born 200 years after the death of the Prophet. And interestingly his alleged book of hadith compilation was compiled 150 years after his own demise.

You try 'well well'. The most important text document, after the quran, is the hadith. As I said earlier, most islamic laws and practices are found in the hadith. This same hadith are filled with absurdities and superstitions which you accused the medieval west for. Stop being intellectually dishonest.

AlBaqir:
Sorry, is it your Dad that is controlling the wealth of Nigeria? Whether "In Islam" or any other government, there are some saddled with the responsibility of administration of public funds. What I am telling you is that northern elders do not discharge their responsibility truthfully and that is what led to the abject poverty of their environment not "bearing of excess children".

I have heard you Sir!

AlBaqir:
Another polemical thought. How many people followed Jesus Christ during his time? How many of his 12 disciples comprehend him? The thieves, 419ers, babalawos, con-artists of today calling themselves Pastors; do you blame Christianity and its teachings or you blame Jesus Christ for their atrocities?

Please think deep before you write.

You made a claim that Islam is a perfect religion and I said we don't have any perfect religion anywhere hence I brought up the issue of confusions in the interpretation of your text documents by various 'scholars'. A perfect religion will not be subjected to so much misunderstanding among it member. Yes we have many 419 pastors, and all muslim clerics are saints. I laff in Chinese (cho-cho-chin-chin),