najib632:
Allah will not put a Muslim in the hell fire because of his sect, but He will do so to those who follow innovations without a just reason.

I don't know if I should follow your own words or the Hadith.

It clearly said the ummah will split into some groups or sects and majority will be in hell.

Now the question is who are the true Muslim sect here?

No sect will never claim to be false.

najib632:
Allah will still take them out of hell as long as they die without associating partners in worship with Allah and they were not hypocrites and worshipping for the sake of the praise of the people and didn't murder a person without any just reason.

For them to enter hell is a failure to them!

No Muslim will never claim to associate partner with Allah.

As long as a person says La ilaa ha illa Llah Muhammadu RasululLah he will be saved from the hell fire even if the faith he has is like the weight of an atom provided the afore mentioned conditions are met. The magicians, pagans, atheists, hypocrites, arrogant disbelievers, oppressors, cheats, liers, murderers, fornicators and adultrators, usury consumers, and all other bad people will be in hell. Any Muslim that dies on major sin without repenting and will be in hell fire and only Allah will save them

Ok, so non-believers who are good people will be put inside hell? Yes?

usermane:
If we turn to Qur'an 6:116, we are clearly cautioned against following the crowd, bandwagon. The Ja'maah reminds us of a crowd, bandwagon. It offers nothing but a false sense of security, a sort of strength in numbers. This is why Muslims belonging to this Ja'maah love converts and convert stories. The more the converts to their version of Islam - the Ja'maah, the larger the Ja'maah. And the larger the Ja'maah, the stronger the sense of security.

This in mind, how did the hadith on the 73 sects and the Ja'maah arise in Sunnite traditions?

You're not a person of knowledge stop acting like one Wallahi it's annoying. Allah is clearly talking about the disbelievers. Do you mean you know more than the scholars of Islam?

najib632:
You're not a person of knowledge stop acting like one Wallahi it's annoying. Allah is clearly talking about the disbelievers. Do you mean you know more than the scholars of Islam?

Not everyone that identify as Muslim are Muslim. Some Muslims are in fact no different from disbelievers. So the disbelievers there are not limited to non-Muslims.

If you find my posts annoying then just skip them. I too find the posts of some poster in this forum annoying. But you know what I do? I skip them. I stopped reading them even when they directly reply to my posts.

The primary audience of my posts are critical Muslims, with an impartial & multidimensional approach to Islam. I have no interest in sterotypical Muslims with antiquated philosophy and reverence for Ibn Tamiyya, Al Ghazali or Ibn Kathir.

usermane:


Not everyone that identify as Muslim are Muslim. Some Muslims are in fact no different from disbelievers. So the disbelievers there are not limited to non-Muslims.

If you find my posts annoying then just skip them. I too find the posts of some poster in this forum annoying. But you know what I do? I skip them. I stopped reading them even when they directly reply to my posts.

The primary audience of my posts are critical Muslims, with an impartial & multidimensional approach to Islam. I have no interest in sterotypical Muslims with antiquated philosophy and reverence for Ibn Tamiyya, Al Ghazali or Ibn Kathir.

No true Scotsman fallacy.

tintingz:
No true Scotsman fallacy.

How is this a fallacy? I never said any particular Muslim is not a Muslim. You should read and digest my post.

usermane:


How is this a fallacy? I never said any particular Muslim is not a Muslim. You should read and digest my post.

Can you identify true Muslims?

tintingz:
Can you identify true Muslims?

I already did. The true Muslims are those saved from hell. Who are these Muslims?

See these verses; 40:40, 103:3, 2:82, 3:57, 4:57

Lambs

usermane:


I already did. The true Muslims are those saved from hell. Who are these Muslims?

See these verses; 40:40, 103:3, 2:82, 3:57, 4:57

What is hell?

Akin1212:


What is hell?

Come on. Haven't you read the Quran. It is what it is - a destination of punishment for evil doers.

usermane:


Come on. Haven't you read the Quran. It is what it is - a destination of punishment for evil doers.

It is what it isn't, you mean.

Do you mean people will go to hell? Can you identify someone who has gone to that destination?

Akin1212:


It is what it isn't, you mean.

Do you mean people will go to hell? Can you identify someone who has gone to that destination?

You're making a mistake. I'm simply reporting what the Qur'an states. Now whether a hell exist and what proof we have is entirely different subject.

usermane:


I already did. The true Muslims are those saved from hell. Who are these Muslims?

See these verses; 40:40, 103:3, 2:82, 3:57, 4:57

All Muslims claim this.

So?

Are Sunni, Shia true Muslims?

tintingz:
All Muslims claim this.

So?

Are Sunni, Shia true Muslims?

I think it really depends on individual. There could be true Muslim among them just as there could be false Muslims. There is no easy way to tell unless we observe each Muslim and judge with Quran.

usermane:


I think it really depends on individual. There could be true Muslim among them just as there could be false Muslims. There is no easy way to tell unless we observe each Muslim and judge with Quran.

You still don't get it.

All Muslim sects claim to follow the Quran.

tintingz:
You still don't get it.

All Muslim sects claim to follow the Quran.

Then I guess it is left for God to judge. Actually following Qur'an and claiming to follow it are not the same

usermane:


Then I guess it is left for God to judge. Actually following Qur'an and claiming to follow it are not the same

So how do we know the difference?

tintingz:
So how do we know the difference?

We just don't, unfortunately. If you're a Muslim you have to do your own research. And decide what to uphold and reject.

usermane:


You're making a mistake. I'm simply reporting what the Qur'an states. Now whether a hell exist and what proof we have is entirely different subject.

I think you're the one who is making a mistake. I am not asking you what the quran says about hell. I asked what is hell, didnt I?

If you choose to explain it by using the Quran, then it must be able to answer any question raised, which includes where is hell, who is going there, in what form are they going, who has gone, etc.

Akin1212:


I think you're the one who is making a mistake. I am not asking you what the quran says about hell. I asked what is hell, didnt I?

If you choose to explain it by using the Quran, then it must be able to answer any question raised, which includes where is hell, who is going there, in what form are they going, who has gone, etc.

Firstly, I've defined hell. There are numerous verses of Quran describing hell. I cannot tell you anything different from these verses.

Secondly, I have mentioned those going to hell according to Qur'an.

Lastly, about the location of hell. It seem to lie somewhere in outer space. This is my impression from the Qur'an.

usermane:


Firstly, I've defined hell. There are numerous verses of Quran describing hell. I cannot tell you anything different from these verses.

Secondly, I have mentioned those going to hell according to Qur'an.

Lastly, about the location of hell. It seem to lie somewhere in outer space. This is my impression from the Qur'an.

Smh

In other words, there is no proof of hell. All you have is just the quranic description of what it is without a single proof?

Again, somewhere in space is not a location.

Akin1212:


Smh

In other words, there is no proof of hell. All you have is just the quranic description of what it is without a single proof?

Again, somewhere in space is not a location.

I take it that the author of Quran opted not to reveal its specific location. Either that or Hell just dont exist.

usermane:


I take it that the author of Quran opted not to reveal its specific location. Either that or Hell just dont exist.

Since we have just two options now, we are down to 50% possibility each for each option. However, we can only take one which is either the author of Quran opted not to reveal it. For the other option, there's no point discussing that if hell doesn't exist.

So if the author of the quran opted not to reveal it for reasons know to him, it could be a way to manipulate the people instead of telling them the truth. Which brings the possibility of the quran being a lie. Agree?

I think the problem we face with Islam is people approaching it with either confirmation bias or disconfirmation bias. And this is why tintingz is asking "Who is a True Muslim" despite my exposé on the Hadith of 73 sects and Akin1212 is asking "Where is hell?"

If you read the Quran carefully, these questions seem absurd as asking; "Who is a true writer" or "Where is the end of the universe?". It is really not the purpose of the Qur'an to answer them.

The thing with anti-Islam critics and Islamic apologists is that they are too sides of a coin. Their approach to the Islam is too one dimensional and narrow. So they make poor arguments just as often as they make good ones.

For me, it is better to approach the Qur'an from alternate perspectives to minimize these bias.

Akin1212:


Since we have just two options now, we are down to 50% possibility each for each option. However, we can only take one which is either the author of Quran opted not to reveal it. For the other option, there's no point discussing that if hell doesn't exist.

So if the author of the quran opted not to reveal it for reasons know to him, it could be a way to manipulate the people instead of telling them the truth. Which brings the possibility of the quran being a lie. Agree?

You could say that. But that is only one way of seeing it.

usermane:
I think the problem we face with Islam is people approaching it with either confirmation bias or disconfirmation bias. And this is why tintingz is asking "Who is a True Muslim" despite my exposé on the Hadith of 73 sects and Akin1212 is asking "Where is hell?"

If you read the Quran carefully, these questions seem absurd as asking; "Who is a true writer" or "Where is the end of the universe?". It is really not the purpose of the Qur'an to answer them.

The thing with anti-Islam critics and Islamic apologists is that they are too sides of a coin. Their approach to the Islam is too one dimensional and narrow. So they make poor arguments just as often as they make good ones.

For me, it is better to approach the Qur'an from alternate perspectives to minimize these bias.

You are wrong!

Tingtinz asked you who a true Muslim is because you made the no true Scotman fallacy. Every Muslim on the face of this earth claims to be true muslims no matter what is written in the quran. And you have established that we cannot know that.

I am asking you where hell is to have a proof that hell actually exists. These are different things

usermane:


You could say that. But that is only one way of seeing it.

Which other way is there to see it?

Akin1212:


Which other way is there to see it?

I really can't think of any at this point, to be true. I can't defend everything in the Qur'an. No Muslim can.

usermane:


I really don't know any at this point, to be true. I can't defend everything in the Qur'an. No Muslim can.

Okay, that's satisfactory. And that could as well be the only way to see it.

But can you defend the God in the quran?

Akin1212:


Okay, that's satisfactory. And that could as well be the only to see it.

But can you defend the God in the quran?

It is difficult to do that. I used to think I could before but I'm not so sure any more.

usermane:


It is difficult to do that. I used to think I could before but I'm not so sure any more.

Okay, good.

So you can't anymore because you can't provide a real proof I suppose.