Ihedinobi3:

Not sure why it has to be the kind you were referring to that I am responsible to give. Are you some kind of a god that the rules don't apply to?

How did you reach that conclusion?

LordReed:


What are you on about? It is very easy to say "I cannot give you the demonstration you seek" instead of making nonsensical quibbles.

LordReed:
I did not reach any conclusion, I am asking you.

LordReed:


What am asking is what are you referring to as birth? Is it after the baby fully emerges or when the baby is emerging?

Ihedinobi3:

If you have a problem with what birth means, I'm not sure this conversation is the right place to be looking for the answer.

Ihedinobi3:

Is that why you thought it was funny? Because what you thought it meant was not funny?

Angels are spirits which do not possess bodies. Their lack does not appear to hamper them at all. In fact, it is precisely their lack of physical bodies that makes them far more powerful and intelligent than we are.

Human spirits were created in bodies so that we would be tested as we are right now. At the end of our testing, we will still have interim bodies and, ultimately, Resurrection Bodies which will give our spirits free rein to fully express ourselves and fully experience God's Creation.

This is a boon. It is not a deprivation. Having a body is not to render our spirits dependent but to ultimately give them a means of expression like nothing else in this universe has.

LordReed:


You are a piece of work. Everything has to be like catching slippery eels with you because you assume everything is a trap. Simple questions turn into gigantic quibbles over nonsense. I have no problem with the meaning of birth however I want to have a clearer picture of what you are saying but instead being as clear as you you turn it into a quibble over meaning. If it was you you'd start accusing me of being disingenuous meanwhile you have asked me questions in this same thread and I answered you with no quibble. Guy you should reevaluate this your style.

Ihedinobi3:

LordReed, I was not trying to offend you or rile you up, but your question was the type that leaves one wondering how else birth could possibly be explained. Let me put it this way then:

The first breath that a baby draws is evidence that a spirit has been put into the body.

LordReed:


I laughed because of the implications as I saw it but I didn't jump into any conclusions so I asked a question. And your answer seems to confirm that the so called spirit does not operate independently of the body.

LordReed:


How hard was that? That's all I wanted to know.

Ihedinobi3:

That was why I asked.

Even if angelic spirits do not have bodies and still operate just fine without them?

LordReed:


I am referring to so called human spirits.

Ihedinobi3:

Do you suspect a difference in ability between the two kinds?

Anyway, everything the Bible teaches about angels and human beings suggests a strong similarity between angelic spirits and human spirits.

LordReed:


One very glaring disparity, no angels have been recorded on tape or pictured as far as i know.

LordReed:


Those who believe say it is.

As far as I know there has not been any convincing display of anything that is "spiritual".

LordReed:
I laughed because of the implications as I saw it but I didn't jump into any conclusions so I asked a question. And your answer seems to confirm that the so called spirit does not operate independently of the body.

Ihedinobi3:

Nor have memories been recorded on tape or pictures.

firestar:


Convincing displays you say?
Don’t you assent that Man is physical being with spiritual capacity?

That separates us from animals who aren’t.
Yet, we are referred to as souls, rather than possessing them.

LordReed:


Nor have memories been said to wield swords and slaughter thousands of people.

LordReed:
The only thing that separates us from animals is our increased capacity for cogitation and the sophistication and coherence of our language. Animals are capable of almost everything else. They use tools, they express emotions, they express love, they have self identity, some of them have traits that humans would be jealous of if the animals could talk. Humans think we are superior just because animals do not have a sophisticated language nor are they able to think at our level.

LordReed:
Anything about soul and spirit being the difference is just some people's way of explaining the difference between us and animals not because there is any objective evidence souls and/or spirits exist.

Ihedinobi3:

As might be expected. So, the absence of physical records of spiritual phenomena is not a real problem.

There is no reason to think that human spirits are incapable of operating independently of physical bodies. They just don't have to.

MuttleyLaff:
I concur wholeheartedly with all you said here except for typing that humans think we are superior just because animals do not have a sophisticated language nor are they able to think at our level. Humans dont think they are superior just because of those thimgs you itemised, human are superior because of hierarchy and a God given status given to them over animals.

There isnt any difference between animals and humans, in relation to souls (i.e. nephesh) and spirits (i.e. ruach). Soul and spirit are the same for both animals and humans, but the difference is in hierarchy, status, accountability, responsibilities and their individual rights. Humans are required to explain reasons for and/or expected to justify their actions, decisions, thoughts, deeds and words, animals are not. Humans are made in the image of the Godhead and the Godhead's likeness, not animals. Humans are called sons of God, not animals and by extension even not celestial beings known as angels sef. The earth fundamentally was created for human habitation and for them to have dominion and rule over the animals

LordReed:
As you are undoubtedly aware I don't believe in any such bestowed hierarchy or the supposed god that gave it, one reason being such has not been shown to exist.

MuttleyLaff:
What you dont and/or do believe in doesnt bother me, you brought that up, not me, all I did, was concurred with almost and/or entirely all what you typed
1/ Now, except for on Planet of Apes, have you ever seen, read or heard of animals domesticating human beings?
2/ Have you ever seen, read or heard of animals keeping humans as pets?
3/ Have you ever seen, read or heard of animals using humans as beast of burden?

LordReed:


Yes the real problem is you guys cannot demonstrate convincingly anything called soul, spirit or spiritual.

LordReed:
Yet somehow this spirit will in some manner as you believe operate independently of the body.

Ihedinobi3:

What? What are you even saying?

LordReed:
You've come with your projecting again. Where did I mention a god in what I wrote? You brought up god and you now say I brought it up. Please if you are confused, go sit down and take a cold bottle of your favorite so your brain can reset.

MuttleyLaff:
Dont even think of going there. You sure are more confused than a foxtrot uniform charlie kilo indigo november golf chameleon stucked in a bag of skittles, what I typed is that, you first brought up that you dont believe in a supposed god, and so I made the comment that what you believe in or not believe in, doesnt faze nor bother me. Where and when did I mention God or god to you, in my comment that you replied to, huh? Are you seeing doubles and what's with the vilifying? Those simple three home truths bestowed hierarchy questions must have touched a nerve, rattled your cage and made you become hostile, aggressive and throw up a tantrum, just the way spoilt brats usually do and acting like as if an ewu or the sorry plight of an animal in you coming out because you've allowing your Soul to yield to your carnal man/body cravings instead of yielding to your ruach man/spirit man/breath man craving. Your Soul is impoverish because it is starved of nourishment supply from the spirit, it is feeding just off the body, bringing forth foul fruits

LordReed:


Do you not believe as your story book says the spirit will return to god?

Ihedinobi3:

I assume that you mean the Bible.

In Ecclesiastes, the Bible teaches that after we die, we answer to God for the choices we have made. That is what it means to say that the spirit returns to God Who made it.

As I already told you, when we die, our spirits receive an interim covering for them with which we go either to the Third Heaven or to Torments. Nothing in Ecclesiastes contradicts that.

Finally, weren't you arguing before that our spirits cannot operate independently of the body? Why did you suddenly switch to saying that they will? What exactly are you confused about here?

LordReed:


I am in no way confused and I never argued that spirits cannot operate indepently, how could I when I don't believe there is anything called spirit? maybe its you who is confused.

Almost everything in your worldview works by special pleading.

Ihedinobi3:

First you suggested that spirits cannot operate independently of the body, then you continued to misconstrue my words to confirm your suggestion. It's hard to not see how that was not an argument.

As for not being able to make an argument when you reject the very premise of it, that is false. Reductio ad absurdum is an argument that assumes premises in order to show that the position they uphold is absurd. That was very similar to what you did even if you did not know that you were doing it.

Some examples of this special pleading? Or should I take your word for it?

LordReed:
ed

Show where I made such a suggestion or made such an argument.

LordReed:
You said your god is the uncaused cause, that is special pleading. You said angels are spirits that have a type of body but yet cannot be captured on film, that is special pleading. You say human spirits do not operate without the body yet when humans die their spirits will gain a special covering, that is special pleading.