sonmvayina:

Where did you get all these ideas from?...strange to me.. We are the spirit of God having a human experience.. Read psalm 104 :29-31 or ecclesiastes 12 :7....we are Gods breath dwelling inside a body made from dust... At death, we go back being Gods breath and the body returns to dust.... So what do you not understand?

When you form doctrine from the old testament why wouldn't you get it all wrong.

Rev 21:1-4:
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth were passed away and the sea is no more. And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God with men! and he will dwell with them; and they will be his people; and God himself will be with them their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes . And there shall no more be death; nor shall grief, nor screaming, nor pain be any more; for the former things are gone."

shadeyinka:

You'll notice that Muslims would not come to this thread because there actually is no convincing response to biblical arguments. The Ahmadias are even willing to distort their Qur'an to show that Jesus was crucified but fell into a swoon!

thank you my good friend. the best this Muslims can do is to throw insult at us. Happy Easter friend.

sonmvayina:
is somebody asking you to worship them?.. We just read it and move on... They don't have any beating on anything..

It is different when some men get together and create a character and forge document to support their story and force people to believe it.. Story that go against the laws of God.. Then it becomes a problem..

So you think the story about Jesus is found only in the bible.!?

Are you a break-away Jehovah's witness?

Cause it looks like you are the one who invented a new Religion for yourself. You quote the bible, yet you assert that it is a forged document!

malvisguy212:
thank you my good friend. the best this Muslims can do is to throw insult at us. Happy Easter friend.

Happy Easter.
I pray that our love for our Saviour will grow beyond material things and that we'll be found faithful in Him

shadeyinka:

So you think the story about Jesus is found only in the bible.!?

Are you a break-away Jehovah's witness?

Cause it looks like you are the one who invented a new Religion for yourself. You quote the bible, yet you assert that it is a forged document!

I never said that... God gave us laws as found in the Torah, I follow them... Not the new testament that is man's foolishness which he thinks is wisdom....

sonmvayina:

I never said that... God gave us laws as found in the Torah, I follow them... Not the new testament that is man's foolishness which he thinks is wisdom....

I am sure you also know that if you fail in one law of the Torah you are guilty of all?

Do you mix yarns in your dressings?
Do you shave the corners of your haircut?
Do you observe the Sabbath as the Jews would?
etc.

shadeyinka:
The topic above looks strange but it isn't. It is a statement all Muslims in the world believe because that is the position of almighty Allah.

Christians Position:
1. Jesus was betrayed and Arrested
2. Jesus was Tried in the courts
3. He was found worthy of death even when not Guilty
4. He was crucified in-between two criminals
5. There were witnesses to his crucifixion
6. His knee bones were not broken because he was already dead
7. A spear was thrust into his side (ribs) to confirm his death.
8. His corpse was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea
9. On the third day he resurrected
10. He showed Himself to His disciples over a period of 40 days explaining to them why Christ must die
11. He asked the disciples to farther themselves at Galilee for His final meeting with them
12. At Galilee, Jesus was taken up to heaven in the presence of the Disciples

I would have posted this in the Islamic section except that I don't want to swear to what I am not.

Qur’an, 4:157-158
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”

What can we see here?
1. The Jews boast that they killed Jesus
2. Allah corrects them that
a. Jesus wasn't killed
b. Jesus wasn't crucified
c. The Jews were confused as per Jesus's fate
d. Jesus was taken bodily to Allah

The Ahmadias have their own theory: they say Jesus fainted on the cross and the cool air of the tomb brought him back to life. Their argument is that Jesus didn't spend more than 8hours on the cross (which is shorter than usual)

Traditionally, Islamic commentators have taught that :
Jesus was substituted for someone else (some say it was Judas others say an innocent bystander).

There are are several questions that need to be answered because the Qur'an was written almost 600years after the events in question.

For the Muslim Scholars: What really happened?

I guess you should have a good say about this:

cc: Empiree , Rashduct4luv:

shadeyinka:

I am sure you also know that if you fail in one law of the Torah you are guilty of all?

Do you mix yarns in your dressings?
Do you shave the corners of your haircut?
Do you observe the Sabbath as the Jews would?
etc.

Says who? Stop mixing new testament with God's laws, does it mean if I commit adultery, I have also committed murder?... Okpe like you.. Follow God's laws, it endures forever.. Psalm 119.

The laws of God (Torah) is the way, the truth and life.. Not a f+cking jesus, psalm 119 is one long poem about it..

sonmvayina:

Says who? Stop mixing new testament with God's laws, does it mean if I commit adultery, I have also committed murder?... Okpe like you.. Follow God's laws, it endures forever.. Psalm 119.

Since you seem to know the old testament, explain the following:
1. Psalm 110:1,
David says, “The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool

Isaiah 9:6-21
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this..

shadeyinka:

Since you seem to know the old testament, explain the following:
1. Psalm 110:1,
David says, “The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool

Isaiah 9:6-21
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this..

Now I understand your problem, all you do is cut and paste.. Thereby missing the whole story and context of the message.. Read the whole story, it will become clear.... Much clearer...

shadeyinka:

Since you seem to know the old testament, explain the following:
1. Psalm 110:1,
David says, “The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool

Isaiah 9:6-21
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this..

I know you went to school... So am asking you, I want a straight answer.. Do you think those are prophesies?

sonmvayina:


I know you went to school... So am asking you, I want a straight answer.. Do you think those are prophesies?

I am not talking in terms of Prophecies. I am speaking about what you consider as the meaning. QED

sonmvayina:


Now I understand your problem, all you do is cut and paste.. Thereby missing the whole story and context of the message.. Read the whole story, it will become clear.... Much clearer...

Please explain the scriptures in the light of the old testament what the verses are saying

shadeyinka:

What really happened?

I support the views of the Ahmadiyya!

Find out more ....

shadeyinka:
The topic above looks strange but it isn't. It is a statement all Muslims in the world believe because that is the position of almighty Allah.

Christians Position:
1. Jesus was betrayed and Arrested
2. Jesus was Tried in the courts
3. He was found worthy of death even when not Guilty
4. He was crucified in-between two criminals
5. There were witnesses to his crucifixion
6. His knee bones were not broken because he was already dead
7. A spear was thrust into his side (ribs) to confirm his death.
8. His corpse was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea
9. On the third day he resurrected
10. He showed Himself to His disciples over a period of 40 days explaining to them why Christ must die
11. He asked the disciples to farther themselves at Galilee for His final meeting with them
12. At Galilee, Jesus was taken up to heaven in the presence of the Disciples

I would have posted this in the Islamic section except that I don't want to swear to what I am not.

Qur’an, 4:157-158
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”

What can we see here?
1. The Jews boast that they killed Jesus
2. Allah corrects them that
a. Jesus wasn't killed
b. Jesus wasn't crucified
c. The Jews were confused as per Jesus's fate
d. Jesus was taken bodily to Allah

The Ahmadias have their own theory: they say Jesus fainted on the cross and the cool air of the tomb brought him back to life. Their argument is that Jesus didn't spend more than 8hours on the cross (which is shorter than usual)

Traditionally, Islamic commentators have taught that :
Jesus was substituted for someone else (some say it was Judas others say an innocent bystander).

There are are several questions that need to be answered because the Qur'an was written almost 600years after the events in question.

For the Muslim Scholars: What really happened?

But the passage you quoted didn't debunk the Christian narrative of Jesus’ death.

Instead, it confirmed Jesus was raised from death.

emrain:


But the passage you quoted didn't debunk the Christian narrative of Jesus’ death.

Instead, it confirmed Jesus was raised from death.

Of course! Jesus death, Resurrection and Take up to heaven is a reality. Only Allah and Muslims feel otherwise with no credible alternate narrative

Niyi53:



I support the views of the Ahmadiyya!


Find out more ....

Doesn't that contradict the plain teaching of the Qur'an?

shadeyinka:

Doesn't that contradict the plain teaching of the Qur'an?

No, I do not find it contradicting the plain teaching of the Holy Quran. Rather, the plain teaching of the Holy Quran is that Eesa, the son of Mary, survived the death on the cross, and migrated East ward in search of the 10 lost tribe where he later died a natural death.

Niyi53:


No, I do not find it contradicting the plain teaching of the Holy Quran. Rather, the plain teaching of the Holy Quran is that Eesa, the son of Mary, survived the death on the cross, and migrated East ward in search of the 10 lost tribe where he later died a natural death.

The plain teaching of the Qur'an is that Eesa was NOT Crucified!
If he wasn't crucified, how can he survive the cross?

shadeyinka:
The plain teaching of the Qur'an is that Eesa was NOT Crucified! If he wasn't crucified, how can he survive the cross?

yes, I agree he wasn't crucified... But what is the meaning of "crucify"?

Niyi53:



yes, I agree he wasn't crucified... But what is the meaning of "crucify"?

Crucifixion is a method of hanging a person by his limbs on a tree/stake with the intention of slowly killing the person.

Crucifixion is a method of capital punishment in which the victim is tied or nailed to a large wooden beam and left to hang, perhaps for several days, until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation.

Crucifixion - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › Cruci...


Surah 4:157
that ‘they neither killed him
nor
crucified him,

but so it was made to appear to them’.

Weed in Action

shadeyinka:
The topic above looks strange but it isn't. It is a statement all Muslims in the world believe because that is the position of almighty Allah.

Christians Position:
1. Jesus was betrayed and Arrested
2. Jesus was Tried in the courts
3. He was found worthy of death even when not Guilty
4. He was crucified in-between two criminals
5. There were witnesses to his crucifixion
6. His knee bones were not broken because he was already dead
7. A spear was thrust into his side (ribs) to confirm his death.
8. His corpse was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea
9. On the third day he resurrected
10. He showed Himself to His disciples over a period of 40 days explaining to them why Christ must die
11. He asked the disciples to farther themselves at Galilee for His final meeting with them
12. At Galilee, Jesus was taken up to heaven in the presence of the Disciples

I would have posted this in the Islamic section except that I don't want to swear to what I am not.

Qur’an, 4:157-158
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”

What can we see here?
1. The Jews boast that they killed Jesus
2. Allah corrects them that
a. Jesus wasn't killed
b. Jesus wasn't crucified
c. The Jews were confused as per Jesus's fate
d. Jesus was taken bodily to Allah

The Ahmadias have their own theory: they say Jesus fainted on the cross and the cool air of the tomb brought him back to life. Their argument is that Jesus didn't spend more than 8hours on the cross (which is shorter than usual)

Traditionally, Islamic commentators have taught that :
Jesus was substituted for someone else (some say it was Judas others say an innocent bystander).

There are are several questions that need to be answered because the Qur'an was written almost 600years after the events in question.

For the Muslim Scholars: What really happened?

cotmag:
Weed in Action

According to who?

Every sane person know that Jesus Died on the Cross by crucifixion.

shadeyinka:

Crucifixion is a method of hanging a person by his limbs on a tree/stake with the intention of slowly killing the person.

[i]Crucifixion is a method of capital punishment in which the victim is tied or nailed to a large wooden beam and left to hang, perhaps for several days, until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation.

Good.
So how would a person who was tied/nailed to a tree/stake/large wooden beam, but was brought down while still alive, be described? What word has been designated to describe such a one because such a person was also definitely not crucified!

Wait!!!

Why is Jesus even represented in the quoran.

Of what significance and importance please if not for counterfeiting? And no we don't serve same God.

Niyi53:


Good.
So how would a person who was tied/nailed to a tree/stake/large wooden beam, but was brought down while still alive, be described? What word has been designated to describe such a one because such a person was also definitely not crucified!

Survived Crucifixion!
Sorry for you!

Why?
There is at least one person who was historicaly documented to have survived crucifixion. They were actually three but two of them later died from their wounds from the crucifixion

Do you need a link? Google is your friend.

According to you, a person who survives crucifixion was never crucified!? Try again to redefine English language.

shadeyinka:

... with the intention of slowly killing the person.

[i]...until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation.

Crucifixion - Wikipedia
htt’.

you are telling me to redefine English language... but have you forgotten what you mentioned in your definition of crucify?

Look again at the definition you gave. If intention to kill is not there it can't be described so... this is just the English language.
The Arabic is even more clear on this that Jesus cannot be described as been crucified as long as the process wasn't completed.
He cannot be described as "masloob" ( one crucified)!

Niyi53:



you are telling me to redefine English language... but have you forgotten what you mentioned in your definition of crucify?

Look again at the definition you gave. If intention to kill is not there it can't be described so... this is just the English language.
The Arabic is even more clear on this that Jesus cannot be described as been crucified as long as the process wasn't completed.
He cannot be described as "masloob" ( one crucified)!

According to you.

A person whose Crucifixion was stopped halfway was never Crucified?

In every Crucifixion, there must be an intention to kill the victim slowly and painfully. Wasn't that what happened to Jesus?

As per your Arabic, the crucifiers of Jesus were not Arabs: so Arabic couldn't have been a better description of anything. The Arabs were not even known for crucifying their enemies.

Let me quote Josephus: a Historian during the time of Jesus

There is an ancient record of one person who survived a crucifixion that was intended to be lethal, but that was interrupted.

Josephus recounts: "I saw many captives crucified , and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery ; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered."[62]

Josephus gives no details of the method or duration of the crucifixion of his three friends before their reprieve.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

In other words according to you, Josephus friends were not crucified!? SMH
If they weren't Crucified, what happened to them?

Find a better argument pls. Your logics is appalling!
So the two friends of Josephus who died were Crucified But the one who survived was not!? I find is difficult to comprehend your Obstinate and Stupendous reasoning!

shadeyinka:


Find a better argument pls. Your logics is appalling!
So the two friends of Josephus who died were Crucified But the one who survived was not!? I find is difficult to comprehend your Obstinate and Stupendous reasoning!

Yes, the one who survived was not crucified.
When the Quran says "maa solabuu hu" it doesn't mean to say that Jesus never went through the experience and that another was placed on the cross etc... No!
The Holy Quran only denies the Jews failure to bring about the Death of Jesus by means of crucifixion!!!


Having said that, now read the translation of the verse again:

وَّقَوْلِهِمْ اِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيْحَ عِيْسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُوْلَ اللّٰهِ‌ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوْهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوْهُ وَلٰـكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ‌ؕ وَاِنَّ الَّذِيْنَ اخْتَلَفُوْا فِيْهِ لَفِىْ شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ‌ؕ مَا لَهُمْ بِهٖ مِنْ عِلْمٍ اِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ‌ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوْهُ يَقِيْنًاۢۙ‏

And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like (one crucified); and those who differ therein are certainly in (a state of) doubt about it; they have no (definite) knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this (conjecture) into a certainty;

Surah An-Nisa', Chapter: 4, verse: 158

Niyi53:


Yes, the one who survived was not crucified.
When the Quran says "maa solabuu hu" it doesn't mean to say that Jesus never went through the experience and that another was placed on the cross etc... No!
The Holy Quran only denies the Jews failure to bring about the Death of Jesus by means of crucifixion!!!


Having said that, now read the translation of the verse again:

وَّقَوْلِهِمْ اِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيْحَ عِيْسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُوْلَ اللّٰهِ‌ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوْهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوْهُ وَلٰـكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ‌ؕ وَاِنَّ الَّذِيْنَ اخْتَلَفُوْا فِيْهِ لَفِىْ شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ‌ؕ مَا لَهُمْ بِهٖ مِنْ عِلْمٍ اِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ‌ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوْهُ يَقِيْنًاۢۙ‏

And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like (one crucified); and those who differ therein are certainly in (a state of) doubt about it; they have no (definite) knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this (conjecture) into a certainty;

Surah An-Nisa', Chapter: 4, verse: 158

Sorry Sir!
Thats a redefinitions of the word crucifixion.

You have simply redefined Crucifixion as Death instead of a method for causing death.

For your information, in Simple English language there is a Difference between:
A method for causing death and death itself. And there are so many methods for causing death!

Some examples:
Lethal Injections
Strangulation
Hanging
Crucifixion
Firing Squad
Poison
Drowning etc

Use any of these in place of Crucifixion and redefine your Crucifixion not according to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad but use.

He was neither killed nor given lethal Injections can only have one meaning. No other.
Except if you think that the Qur'an was saying:

"He was neither killed Nor killed...!"


It's the method that causes death: and in all these methods, a distant few have been found to survive them.

If Jesus was not Crucified, then the method of Crucifixion wasn't used on Him QED. Any other definition is a Deliberate DISTORTION of the plain words of Allah in the Qur'an.


And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’
whereas [b]they slew him not ,
NOR
crucified him ,
but he was made to appear to them like (one crucified); and those who differ therein are certainly in (a state of) doubt about it; they have no (definite) knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this (conjecture) into a certainty;[/b]

If Jesus wasn't Crucified, how could it be made to look like He was Crucified?
And I asked you a question:

If Josephus friend that survived Crucifixion was never Crucified, what happened to him? And the two other friends that died, what did they die of?


Check here for other translations of the Qur'an and tell me again that killed and Crucified mean exactly the same thing, then explain the use of the word NOR or NEITHER!
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/157/default.htm

shadeyinka:

, how could it be made to look like He was Crucified?




https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/157/default.htm

you asking me this ?
when the Holy Quran is also saying that they follow conjectures on this issues!

Know for certain that even the other translations presented have no evidence from the Quranic text that shows that a theirs person was involved. The Holy Quran never makes any form of inference to that.

Yes I agree that there is difference between death and something that causes death and this.what I am also trying to draw your attention to.

and my argument is that for one to be described as being crucified, the process must have been completed and result gotten. otherwise, if it falls short of that, the person cannot be described so.
I hope you are a Muslim and believe in the Holy Quran.... If yes, read Quran Ch 5 Vs 4 where Allah speaks of the types of animals forbidden to us... He has used the words Munkhaniqatu, mauquuzatu, mutaraddiyatu and natiihatu.
if the preliminary acts of these four categories are done but the animal still survives, would they still be considered to be forbidden? No.

by using the word salaba, our attention is drawn towards the aim of the Jews. the Jews were not only aiming at hanging Jesus alone for that doesn't prove anything. Rather they want to see him die there because their law is that one who dies on the cross is an accursed of God.