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Stats: 2,867,397 members, 6,881,393 topics. Date: Thursday, 26 May 2022 at 03:54 AM
|Free Will: A Re-examination by TheArranger(m): 10:24am On May 04, 2019|
Lol. Now i know this debate has been done to the death and you all (christians especially) are sick and tired of it. But before you sign off this thread. Please hear me out...
This free will debate is not about the modal fallacy committed by accusing Gods foreknowledge of determining our choices, don't worry.
My thesis is that we seemingly do not have free will, but merely the illusion of it. Essentially it's a part 2 to the whole thing. I'll outline my premises here.
1. There are an infinite number of potential universes God could create. (Any slight difference = a different universe)
2. In two of these potential universes, I have my classic choice A or B.
3. In one universe I choose A
4. In the second universe I choose B
5. God, being omniscient and all-
powerful, created and thus selected the universe in which I chose A rather than B.
6. Hence because God chose to create universe ONE where I selected A over B, with full knowledge (his omniscience) of the outcome of my choice, He determined my choice for me. Thus I do not have free will.
How do I reconcile this?
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by TheArranger(m): 10:25am On May 04, 2019|
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by GodHead85: 11:11am On May 04, 2019|
From an initial state there are an infinite number of potential universe that May exist. If I create a piece of paper and hand it to you, and you draw a flower... did I create a flower? No, I created a piece of paper that could have potential become the picture of a flower.. or it could have been the picture of a skull... your choices made it into the picture of a flower.
If you are going to assume that 1) A god exists and 2) Free will exists then you must acknowledge that an omnipotent God *Must* relinquish some control in order for free will to exist. I.E... if my free will is to have meaning, then I must be able to choose freely, If I can choose freely, then my choice can be neither guided or controlled by another entity... so even if God had the ability to be omnipotent God must willingly give up some control in order for my control (free will) to be meaningful.
So, god chose to create a universe where you eventually had a choice between option A and B and your free will molded the universe into the one where you did choose which ever one you chose.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by TheArranger(m): 2:38pm On May 04, 2019|
GodHead85:- Could POTENTIALLY
Exist for the purposes of this debate yes.
choices made it into the pictureCorrect they did, much like a candle has the potential to become a flame
Must relinquish some control inCorrect. He must, I agree.
But sadly at the moment this is just circular reasoning. Assuming I am Christian and can arrive at the same conclusion, I have to take it on Faith because it is circular reasoning. I have no issue with faith, but I am trying to find a solution to this problem.
So, god chose to create a universe where you eventually had a choice between option A and B and your free will molded the universe into the one where you did choose which ever one you chose.We have to argue that God did in fact have no choice on which universe to create because he created the universe where one of the outcomes of my choice took place, rather than the universe where the other possible outcome of my choice took place. That is essentially my dilemma.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by GodHead85: 3:30pm On May 04, 2019|
ok, this is just for the peanut gallery because this is about the point where people start jumping in about how this or that doesn't prove anything because we never proved our original axioms that
1) God exists and
2) Free will exits.
1) We are not attempting to prove the existence of God, nor the existence of free will.
2) We are merely trying to reconcile the existence of god With the existence of free will to determine if they are in fact mutually exclusive.
3) This is a sound logical exercise... we are able to attempt to logically determine what the ramifications WOULD be IF the axioms WERE true without requiring that we prove those axioms to be true... We merely have to remember that proving those axioms false renders our exercise futile.
The OP Question is about a seemingly irreconcilable paradox that would arise if and only if both
1) God exists, and
2) We have free will. Therefore, in order to attempt to reconcile this paradox we can start with the axioms that
1) God exists and
2) We have free will because if either of these were not true then the paradox would not be an issue to consider and it is only when these are both true that we have an interesting case in regards to the Original question.
TheArranger:I disagree... I do not feel that there is any logical implication that requires Free Will, therefore God should be expected to have had at the very least two choices when creating the universe...
1) A universe in which we do have free will and
2) A universe in which we do not have free will.
TheArranger:This removes your own Free will... if the the events that took place were due to the conditions of the universe or due to the universe that was created rather then your own free will then you do not have free will. The OP question assumes that humans DO have free will, therefore the events that take place are due to your free will, not due to the conditions of the universe.
Assuming that free will Does exist then God created a universe in which either outcome COULD
take place, but your free will determined which outcome DID take place. If God 'created' the universe where the choice you made is the one that took place then you did not make the choice and you did not at any point have free will. This violates our axiom that we had free will which means that it is logically incompatible that God Created the universe in which our choice was baked in and also we have free will. This means that either our choices are not baked in and our choices cause meaningful divergences in reality or we do not have 'Free will'.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by power50: 3:34pm On May 04, 2019|
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|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by TheArranger(m): 3:52pm On May 04, 2019|
GodHead85:LOL, I feel you. I admit the amount of atheists that do this is INSANE.
1. A universe in which we do have free will and 2) A universe in which we do not have free will.Precisely, which is why this is a tuff topic haha!
This removes your own Free willSeemingly yes
The OP question assumes that humans DO have free will, therefore the events that take place are due to your free will, not due to the conditions of theAre you arguing here that it is a self-refuting argument? Because I agree that when I say, I can choose A in Universe one etc etc... If that choice equates to free will it is self-refuting BUT does choose necessarily equate to I have the free will to pick A? Is free will JUST the ability to choose? Or is it more than that? I
don't know you tell me .
Assuming that free will Does exist then God created a universe in which either outcome COULD take placeAre you trying to suggest here that God knows all possible outcomes but does not know which one you pick, that seems to be incompatible at least with my view on omniscience as knowing what I choose is something logically coherent and thus possible for God to know, and if it is possible for God to know, He knows it. The only way seemingly to reconcile that would be for God to deliberately prevent himself from knowing things relating to our free will? Is that even biblically supportable?
Thanks for your responses btw, it is helpful!
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by GodHead85: 5:18pm On May 04, 2019|
TheArranger:This wasn't precisely what I meant.... I meant that given the axioms: God Exists, We Have Free Will... disproves that god explicitly defines every aspect of the universe. I was attempting to show that either god does not explicitly define every aspect of our universe (allowing us to define some aspects via Free Will) or we do not have free will (which is your argument). I meant only to show that while your argument "we don't have free will" may be correct (It is not logically implausible) it is not the exclusive possibility and it is not inherently false to believe it is possible for God to exist and for us to also have free will.
The original question (to me) seemed to be asking how we can have free will when god defines the universe. This seems to me to be a related question of, how can god know the future if God did not define the future and also the future is not deterministic (Due to free will). So, being a slightly different question... here we assume the axioms
1) God Exists
2) God Created the universe
If God Created the universe then God must exist at least partially outside of our universe. (It would be debatable as to if God can or
does exist in any way within our universe... theists would say yes while deists might say no).
The laws of physics as we know them apply (as far as we are able to confidently determine) only to our own universe. We can not, with any certainty assume that these same laws exist outside our universe or within other universe is other universes exist (However, through our assumption that god exists and god created the universe then there must be an 'outside' our universe to whatever extent that would mean). We can not assume that an entity that perceives their reality differently perceives time in the same way we perceive time. If an entity outside our universe has the ability to perceive time as a spatial dimension (not locked into perceiving only an instantaneous point in time) then that entity would be able to see the effect of a choice without being the instigator of that choice.
This whole bit, may or may not be true... we don't know and can't tell. But it shows that Free Will and "Gods" knowledge of the 'future' are not mutually exclusive in all cases. In a lot of cases, we'd like to eliminate 'unlikely' possibilities and focus on the more 'likely' possibilities... but we don't have enough information to quantifiable determine the likely hood of any of these possibilities... so to disregard any of them is to willfully inject personal bias into the issue.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by NnennaG6(f): 7:09pm On May 04, 2019|
TheArranger:This is actually a misunderstanding of timelines. Multiple timelines exists in the same universe we exist now. Think of a universe as a visual novel title while timelines are choices within that title. God knows all possible choices and how it will unfold. Whichever choice you choose and get to experience is up to you. Either way, God knows what happens no matter the choice you make. Basically, you are just experiencing what is already existent in the future and your choice determines which future you see.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by EmperorHarry: 7:21pm On May 04, 2019|
My question would be...Do you think Satan has free will?
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by TheArranger(m): 7:49pm On May 04, 2019|
NnennaG6:BUT doesn't that still mean that God chose the universe in which I ran along that specific timeline? Given his omniscience surely he does?
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by TheArranger(m): 7:58pm On May 04, 2019|
EmperorHarry:I don't know. What do you think?
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by Vic2Ree(m): 8:08pm On May 04, 2019|
NnennaG6:So god doesn't know the future. Saying that he knows how it will unfold is little more impressive than me saying I know what color your car is, because if it's red it's red, if it's blue it's blue, etc.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by NnennaG6(f): 8:19pm On May 04, 2019|
Vic2Ree:He does. You are simply choosing to experience a future he already knows. That's why I compared it with a visual novel because the creator of the VN knows every choice and every scenario in the game and making him omniscient with regards to how the story unfolds. You simply choose which of those path do you want to experience with your choice.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by NnennaG6(f): 8:31pm On May 04, 2019|
TheArranger:You choose the universe you are in because your free will cannot be violated. So you basically chose the Visual Novel (VN) to play and the choices you make playing the VN. God, as the programmer, knows all choices and events of the VN no matter what you choose.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by Vic2Ree(m): 8:43pm On May 04, 2019|
NnennaG6:But you do think there is one unifying reality, right? So my choices don't just affect my experience. In any case, I know the future almost as well as your god. I know that it's either going to rain tomorrow or not. And if I knew which one it is, I could tell you whether or not it's going to rain tomorrow. Very impressive. Maybe your god omnipresently defies relativity and can predict anything that doesn't have a free
will (which presumably just humans, or at least just some sort of life does). In that case he can predict 1 second into the future at any place that is more than 1 lightsecond from any free-willed organism. Still, it's very far from complete knowledge.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by JujuSugar(f): 8:53pm On May 04, 2019|
NnennaG6:Pls ma, who is the YOU who does the choosing?
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by NnennaG6(f): 9:07pm On May 04, 2019|
Your choice affecting others is also known. VN analogy is simply a simplified way of demonstrating omniscience and free will being compatible.
Vic2Ree:Do you know the possible events 10 years from now? How about 2000 years from now?
God sees all kinds of possible events even to a very distant future because of his perspective from a higher dimension. Basically, he can see everything in the maze from above while you can only see directly what is in your vision within the maze and predict the future as far as you can see within it.
Also, what do you mean defy laws? You mean laws outside the universe? Then indeed laws outside the universe are basically created at will and the universe we are in already has a law set for it and limits us. Humans have complete free will. Omniscience is about knowing all the exact events that can happen in the future and humans are free to choose which events would unfold. Our personalities is what pushes us towards a certain direction and this is why there is this thing called destiny. You can go against it with your free will or flow with it. Either way, both possible future already exists and known to God and you simply choose.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by NnennaG6(f): 9:13pm On May 04, 2019|
JujuSugar:Literally YOU: the person itself and the one I am speaking to.
Like I said, you are choosing already existing and known futures and that's why God knows while allowing free will because you get to choose which of those futures you get to experience.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by TheArranger(m): 9:28pm On May 04, 2019|
NnennaG6:I do not choose the universe I am in. There is only one universe, that we can demonstrably know of. Thus there is no choice, I was always going to be in this universe. However, that doesn't mean there was not other potential universes where things could have been different.
The issue is, God knows all choices and events of the VN, but he chose to create the specific VN where I choose A over B.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by NnennaG6(f): 9:44pm On May 04, 2019|
TheArranger:You chose the universe and you simply don't remember it like what happens when you do things in a dream or mundane things in the past. There are other universes which religion calls heaven and hell. In fact, there are multiple heavens just as there are multiple hells.
TheArranger:Like I said, there are many VNs out there and this is the particular VN you chose to experience. There are many choices you can make within this VN and your choice determines how the story unfolds. That doesn't change God's knowledge of the VN as the programmer. You do know that events and choices are already programmed within a VN, right? You are not creating new ones when you make a choice.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by TheArranger(m): 9:59pm On May 04, 2019|
NnennaG6:LOL @red. Heaven and hell are NOT other universes.
I think you are missing the point here but its ok, I've got enough replies. We don't need to continue.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by JujuSugar(f): 10:22pm On May 04, 2019|
NnennaG6:Nne, when you say ME, you have to be more specific o!.....
I am an aggregate subject to change, not a self-existent entity......
What I was when I first posted......
is different from what I am now,.....
and will be very different ten years in the future......
My dear, you have assumed some sort of intrinsic essence for the self that has yet to be demonstrated!
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by EmperorHarry: 11:30pm On May 04, 2019|
TheArranger:You could have said yes or no but you didn't because of a lack of genuine information on the subject in question.You chose not to say yes or no because there are other options available.
Now let's assume your observing an ant creeping in a tube(with no barriers),you know where the ant entered through(The beginning) and you know where it exits from (the end) now there's countless number of paths that ant can take before it gets to the exit. You're aware of the paths but your just an observer.The ant gets to choose what paths it wants to take.It could go straight to the end of the tube or creep diagonally or straight then diagonally or up and down the tube till it gets to the end. Now you can visualize the many ways it can get to the end but it's up to the ant to use whatever route it was to get there. This means the future already exists which is a topic I've talked about before but it doesn't mean we don't get to shift and change how the future looks like.
Every night you dream,you experience an illusion that could become a possible reality if all elements and events in that dream were to occur in the same way in reality. That's when déjà vu occurs.But we get to dream more than 150 times in a year,some of which we forget but we don't experience them because we didn't make choices that would enable us experience them.
The infinite nature of the choices(and it's uncertainty)which we can make within our life time to me is equivalent to free will.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by Vic2Ree(m): 11:38pm On May 04, 2019|
NnennaG6:Yes, I do. Either it's going to rain 10 years from now, or it isn't. Either it's going to rain 2000 years from now, or it isn't.
What do you mean defy laws?Your god isn't really outside the universe, because he's still bound by time if he doesn't know the future. And he doesn't. You seem to agree that there is one unifying actual reality, of which god doesn't know what choices will be made in the future. So he does kind of break relativity by having information travel faster than the speed of light, but, again, this is not really something I have a problem with.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by TheArranger(m): 11:49pm On May 04, 2019|
EmperorHarry:I perfectly understand the picture painted by this analogy. But you seem have omitted an important issue here. The "many worlds" interpretation is just window-dressing on the underlying problem, which is that perfect foreknowledge -- knowledge of the truth value of propositions about future events - requires predetermination. If God can see all the whole space-time continuum and every branch of every choice made by free agents, but knows in advance which of the many worlds will be realized by so-called "free choices", then the choices are not free in any satisfying sense of free will.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by NnennaG6(f): 11:58pm On May 04, 2019|
JujuSugar:I'm talking of the conscious you. You are the same consciousness when you were born and you will be the same consciousness until you die. That's why your experience on earth is continuous and not broken by you being a different consciousness at different moments.
That's another story about the soul. I am just answering the question about free will.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by NnennaG6(f): 12:07am On May 05, 2019|
TheArranger:That's your belief and assertion. Think about it. Our universe has a set of laws. Heaven and hell have theirs as well. So they do count as universes. Within universes, timelines exists because of the laws restricting how we manifest and perceive things.
That's ok if we agree to disagree. Hopefully you got an answer about free will and omniscience.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by NnennaG6(f): 12:21am On May 05, 2019|
Vic2Ree:So can you tell me the state of the whole earth, say 200 years from now? Go on. Tell me and don't be limited to just the weather.
Vic2Ree:His consciousness resides outside the universe's timeline which is what gives us a sense of time. That's why I used the maze analogy as well because that's the closest to what a timeline would more or less look like at the perspective of someone outside of it. In your perspective, the maze looks different and feels limited since you are in it. Walking through the maze is experiencing time. That's basically why time is considered an illusion. A brick in the wall is considered space and those bricks "change" as you walk through it. Our consciousness flows at the speed of light at the 4th dimension hence why nothing can exceed the speed of light.
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by MuttleyLaff: 1:23am On May 05, 2019|
NnennaG6:Ranchhoddas ThothHermes, come see and read this about rules ooo. Heaven, earth, paradise and hell have rules
|Re: Free Will: A Re-examination by ThothHermes: 7:11am On May 05, 2019|
These sound like fictional places to me ooo.
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