semid4lyfe:

@ Sagamite
Are you always this angry?

Coolu temper o!

Me, angry? Nah. Just mainly intense, only angry with morons.

[Introductions] I'm Sagamite . . . . I solve problems.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrLxySqQn6E[/flash]

Sagamite:

That is in reference to Nigeria, otherwise:

So you expect every nigerians to speak correct english even when the language is a ''FOREIGN'' one ? You should know that cannot be 100% possible and if i may ask do all chinese or French speak good English ?

Gamine:

I don't understand why people are screaming about English and Grammar.
What does that mean? How does that contribute to anything?  

Please direct your complaint to the NUC and WAEC board that specified that Credits in English and Maths are the minimum requirement to obtain University admission. For now, that IS the standard students should aspire to. And frankly speaking, it's a perfectly rational benchmark.
Poor performance in English language exams can be tied to the decline in quality of spoken and written English in many young people these days.

~Bluetooth:

So you expect every nigerians to speak correct english even when the language is a ''FOREIGN'' one ? You should know that cannot be 100% possible and if i may ask do all chinese or French speak good English ?

Like it or not, English is our national language. It's a language that's supposed to be taught in all our schools, and hence is a language that students should rightly be tested in. Mastery of this language SHOULD be used as the benchmark for entry into institutions of higher learning in this country.
English is not the National language in either France or China. I'm really surprised you're bringing up such a watery argument. Is this deliberate?

~Bluetooth:

So you expect every nigerians to speak correct english even when the language is a ''FOREIGN'' one ? You should know that cannot be 100% possible and if i may ask do all chinese or French speak good English ?

Go back and read my posts on the last page and try and understand what I am saying.

texazzpete:

I'm really surprised you're bringing up such a watery argument. Is this deliberate?

What did you expect?

texazzpete:

Please direct your complaint to the NUC and WAEC board that specified that Credits in English and Maths are the minimum requirement to obtain University admission. For now, that IS the standard students should aspire to. And frankly speaking, it's a perfectly rational benchmark.
Poor performance in English language exams can be tied to the decline in quality of spoken and written English in many young people these days.

Like it or not, English is our national language. It's a language that's supposed to be taught in all our schools, and hence is a language that students should rightly be tested in. Mastery of this language SHOULD be used as the benchmark for entry into institutions of higher learning in this country.
English is not the National language in either France or China. I'm really surprised you're bringing up such a watery argument. Is this deliberate?

I agreed that English and mathematics are the bench mark to gaining university admission but how many people really know the language as their indigenious language ?

~Bluetooth:

I agreed that English and mathematics are the bench mark to gaining university admission but how many people really know the language as their indigenious language ?

Let me re-iterate.
English and Maths are taught in our curriculum from Primary school (1-6) to Secondary School (Jss1 - SS3). That's around 12 years of education.
If you cannot speak or write English adequately after all that, then you have no business in the University. That is the benchmark, and that MUST be honored.

What we should be discussing is what scenario, what factors could lead to our youths not being able to make these benchmarks. I mean, a C in English shouldn't be that hard to obtain. So what are the reasons? Is it the teaching? The teachers? The textbooks? The poor learning environment? The Parents? Lack of motivation on the part of the child? Distractions?

texazzpete:

Let me re-iterate.
English and Maths are taught in our curriculum from Primary school (1-6) to Secondary School (Jss1 - SS3). That's around 12 years of education.
If you cannot speak or write English adequately after all that, then you have no business in the University. That is the benchmark, and that MUST be honored.

What we should be discussing is what scenario, what factors could lead to our youths not being able to make these benchmarks. I mean, a C in English shouldn't be that hard to obtain. So what are the reasons? Is it the teaching? The teachers? The textbooks? The poor learning environment? The Parents? Lack of motivation on the part of the child? Distractions?

This is what i'm saying. . .even with a ''A' in English,it doesn't necessarily mean the person can stand to defend that distinction.I used to know a lady that graduated from a private university in Edo state and there was a day she had to call her boyfriend who happened to be somebody i know to spell ''THOUSAND'' for her in the bank.
The said lady went to private pry,secondary and even a private university,yet she couldnt spell ''thousand''.

texazzpete:

Please direct your complaint to the NUC and WAEC board that specified that Credits in English and Maths are the minimum requirement to obtain University admission. For now, that IS the standard students should aspire to. And frankly speaking, it's a perfectly rational benchmark.
Poor performance in English language exams can be tied to the decline in quality of spoken and written English in many young people these days.

Like it or not, English is our national language. It's a language that's supposed to be taught in all our schools, and hence is a language that students should rightly be tested in. Mastery of this language SHOULD be used as the benchmark for entry into institutions of higher learning in this country.
English is not the National language in either France or China. I'm really surprised you're bringing up such a watery argument. Is this deliberate?

Colomentality. SMH
Tell me how English and Grammar has helped this country, oops, Chris Okotie, Patrick Obahiaghon. . I forgot.

Gamine:

Colomentality. SMH
Tell me how English and Grammar has helped this country, oops, Chris Okotie, Patrick Obahiaghon. . I forgot.

'English and Grammar' goes far beyond demagoguery.
We're all able to communicate properly with people from all regions of this country since we have a common language. And we can communicate effectively since we can speak decent English!
Since you're yet to pay any taxes in this country, in your case i'd have to agree with you that your command of English hasn't been of much use to Nigeria .

~Bluetooth:

This is what i'm saying. . .even with a ''A' in English,it doesn't necessarily mean the person can stand to defend that distinction.I used to know a lady that graduated from a private university in Edo state and there was a day she had to call her boyfriend who happened to be somebody i know to spell ''THOUSAND'' for her in the bank.
The said lady went to private pry,secondary and even a private university,yet she couldnt spell ''thousand''.

No 1, you did not connect your statements. Did the lady that went to private University get "A" in English?

No 2, you are talking like if private education in Nigeria are some kind of beacon of high performance or quality education. So what if she went to private institutions?

No 3, was it only thousand she could not/struggle to spell ON ONE OCCASSION or were there others?

Gamine:

Colomentality. SMH
Tell me how English and Grammar has helped this country, oops, Chris Okotie, Patrick Obahiaghon. . I forgot.

I take it you are kind of havin a laff, antya?

texazzpete:

'English and Grammar' goes far beyond demagoguery.
We're all able to communicate properly with people from all regions of this country since we have a common language. And we can communicate effectively since we can speak decent English!
Since you're yet to pay any taxes in this country, in your case i'd have to agree with you that your command of English hasn't been of much use to Nigeria .

What happened to Pidgin? Last I checked that was what people from EVERY region understood or you are still forming you never knew pidgin till you got on Nairaland?

I take it you are kind of havin a laff, antya?

This is a serious issue, why would I be laughing over it

^^Really girl is this how you propose to change the system. By doing away with English, the most widely spoken international language, and replacing it with what exactly?? Pidgin, Wazobia I can only hope you're having a laugh.

By the way who says these kids are actually fluent and literate in their local languages?

What you should be talking about is how to improve the quality of teacher training and recruitment which would ensure that only teachers with good communication skills are employed  in state secondary schools.

Gamine:

This is a serious issue, why would I be laughing over it

OK, allow me to retort:

You are saying: "You do not see a big deal if our high school and university leavers cannot speak or write English well. That the ability to do such is not really something that will get Nigeria anywhere?"

Please tell me I misintepreted or misconstrued your statements.

Sagamite:

No 1, you did not connect your statements. Did the lady that went to private University get "A" in English?

No 2, you are talking like if private education in Nigeria are some kind of beacon of high performance or quality education. So what if she went to private institutions?

No 3, was it only thousand she could not/struggle to spell ON ONE OCCASSION or were there others?

I take it you are kind of havin a laff, antya?

She went to a private school because the standard there is assumed to be higher than a public school,so it's expected that her grades in English should be higher than that of students from public school.The lady was nothing to write home about because she had to manouever her way till she graduated despite the fact that she speaks English fluently.My point here is that there is no connection between being intelligent and the ability to speak or write good english.

~Bluetooth:

She went to a private school because the standard there is assumed to be higher than a public school,so it's expected that her grades in English should be higher than that of students from public school.The lady was nothing to write home about because she had to manouevered her way till she graduated despite the fact that she speaks English fluently.My point here is that there is no connection between being intelligent and the ability to speak or write good english.

Fair point. No dispute. Just as there is no connection between being intelligent and having a University education.
To get entry into a Nigerian University, you need English. And as I've said before, you don't need to be be that intelligent to pass O' Level English.

If you go through Primary and Secondary education and you can't speak or write good English, then it's either you aren't intelligent or there's something wrong with your school. Lots of smart kids fall by the wayside just because their schools are really horrible. Those are the ones we should be trying to save, not those who go to all the private schools and still are clueless.

~Bluetooth:

She went to a private school because the standard there is assumed to be higher than a public school,so it's expected that her grades in English should be higher than that of students from public school.The lady was nothing to write home about because she had to manouever her way till she graduated despite the fact that she speaks English fluently.My point here is that there is no connection between being intelligent and the ability to speak or write good english.

Say what?!!!
There is a connection, but the ability does not determine your intelligence.
Or does Nigeria's education system school in some language other than English?
Like Sagaman said a while ago [Yoruba-English accent]. . . ."For you to be adequately good at other subjects, you will reach a minimum threshold in your language of learning.", true as this is, there is no "set" threshold.
But there is definitely a connection between ability to speak/understand/write "good" English and intelligence in a setting where education is given in English.

~Bluetooth:

I disagree with you on this.you don't measure academic performance solely on ability to speak or write English.What will you say about countries that don't speak English at all,don't they have intelligent people ?

For Nigerians proficiency in English is key measurement of level of education. It’s our official language. As an engineer for instance, you need to communicate your project plan, resource management etc to clients in a manner that shows you can deliver. And if you’re a Lawyer, well poor English means you’ll be “charge and bail” forever.

This mass failure is very alarming and this report by Next News shows our government & people do not really understand the value of sound education
http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Home/5621782-146/nigeria_has_the_highest_number_of.csp

No one said to do away with English Language which is ever evolving.
Focusing on it as a way of measurement is just backward, besides Written English is not the same as Spoken.
People can cram and get an A, means ABSOLUTELY nothing (referring to my very post here)

Sagamite:

OK, allow me to retort:

You are saying: "You do not see a big deal if our high school and university leavers cannot speak or write English well. That the ability to do such is not really something that will get Nigeria anywhere?"

Please tell me I misintepreted or misconstrued your statements.

Exactly. The focus needs to be changed.

~Bluetooth:

She went to a private school because the standard there is assumed to be higher than a public school,so it's expected that her grades in English should be higher than that of students from public school.

Reeeeally?

I would have assumed that IN NIGERIA going to private university is a function of finance, not superior academic performance. Am I wrong?

In regards to private schools, some standards might be higher than public but most's standard is still pretty poor.

~Bluetooth:

The lady was nothing to write home about because she had to manouever her way till she graduated despite the fact that she speaks English fluently.

What do you mean by maneuver?

You still have not specified if she was the same person that got A in English.

~Bluetooth:

My point here is that there is no connection between being intelligent and the ability to speak or write good english.

Did I speak about intelligence?

I believe my point was educational depth and quality.

look at the bigger picture, its really not about being able to communicate in english (reading or writing). even if these subjects are taught in pidgin(which would be interesting to say the least) the willingness and readiness to learn on the part of the student, the teaching techniques of the teachers, the ancient teaching schemes provided by the govt if not changed would only produce the same results.

Gamine:

No one said to do away with English Language which is ever evolving.
Focusing on it as a way of measurement is just backward, besides Written English is not the same as Spoken.
People can cram and get an A, means ABSOLUTELY nothing (referring to my very post here)

Exactly. The focus needs to be changed.

So you are saying it is not a problem if our university graduates cannot write or speak English adequately?

texazzpete:

Fair point. No dispute. Just as there is no connection between being intelligent and having a University education.
To get entry into a Nigerian University, you need English. And as I've said before, you don't need to be be that intelligent to pass O' Level English.

If you go through Primary and Secondary education and you can't speak or write good English, then it's either you aren't intelligent or there's something wrong with your school. Lots of smart kids fall by the wayside just because their schools are really horrible. Those are the ones we should be trying to save, not those who go to all the private schools and still are clueless.

Do you know that it was when i got to Jss 3 that i had idea of what's called pidgin English because all through my primary education i was exposed to the normal English.I hard to adjust to speaking pidgin simply because i wanted to move with the big boys in school.
I found out later that the english i learnt in primary still remain a part of while those i learnt after were just for me to pass my exam in the secondary school.This is why the ''Use of English'' is being taught in year 1 and 2 at tertiary level as a general studies to blend students to a new idea that they really need to know English as it ought to be other than to pass exams.

must_a_far:

look at the bigger picture, its really not about being able to communicate in english (reading or writing). even if these subjects are taught in pidgin(which would be interesting to say the least) the willingness and readiness to learn on the part of the student, the teaching techniques of the teachers, the ancient teaching schemes provided by the govt if not changed would only produce the same results.

This is my main point though. Changing the system (Approach, Techniques e.t.c) whether in English or Not.

Sagamite:

So you are saying it is not a problem if our university graduates cannot write or speak English adequately?

In this present dispensation, No. Why should they be expected to.
You have to consider the root of a problem instead of harping on the fruits.

Gamine:

No one said to do away with English Language which is ever evolving.
Focusing on it as a way of measurement is just backward, besides Written English is not the same as Spoken.
People can cram and get an A, means ABSOLUTELY nothing (referring to my very post here)

Honsestly what are you rambling about.?

EVERY educational measurement system in the world puts prime emphasis on testing literacy and numeracy skills. That is language and maths are of fundamental importance. There is nothing progressive whatsoever about not focusing on this vital aspect of learning.

That some people are able to memorise facts and get top grades is not a cogent reason to do away with language testing.

Gamine:

This is my main point though. Changing the system (Approach, Techniques e.t.c) whether in English or Not.

In this present dispensation, No. Why should they be expected to.
You have to consider the root of a problem instead of harping on the fruits.

So you recognise it is a problem?

Gamine:

This is my main point though. Changing the system (Approach, Techniques e.t.c) whether in English or Not.

In this present dispensation, No. Why should they be expected to.
You have to consider the root of a problem instead of harping on the fruits.

Just so we can agree on something, the fact that kids are taught English in school is not the root of the problem, right?

What is all this root of problem talk.

It is rather obvious that a lot of university undergraduates did not have the opportunity to go to good English speaking schools in their formative years. That is the issue: the dearth of these nursery/primary schools in Nigeria, not the language itself.

What we have now is that federal universities have to serve as remedial centres for those deficient in these vital literacy skills otherwise these students would find it very difficult to sail through the university system.

occam:

For Nigerians proficiency in English is key measurement of level of education. It’s our official language. As an engineer for instance, you need to communicate your project plan, resource management etc to clients in a manner that shows you can deliver. And if you’re a Lawyer, well poor English means you’ll be “charge and bail” forever.

This mass failure is very alarming and this report by Next News shows our government & people do not really understand the value of sound education
http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Home/5621782-146/nigeria_has_the_highest_number_of.csp

there was no where i disputed against proficiency in English but using grammar as a measurement of intelligence is what i disagree on.You don't need sophisticated English to communicate as an engineer or whatsoever,your ability to converse in a form that your clients understand is what i'm talking about.If you look at patrick obaiagbon,will you call him an intelligent person simply because he lives in a world of his own where he communicate with spirits instead of human ?

Ileke-IdI:

Say what?!!!
There is a connection, but the ability does not determine your intelligence.
Or does Nigeria's education system school in some language other than English?
Like Sagaman said a while ago [Yoruba-English accent]. . . ."For you to be adequately good at other subjects, you will reach a minimum threshold in your language of learning.", true as this is, there is no "set" threshold.
But there is definitely a connection between ability to speak/understand/write "good" English and intelligence in a setting where education is given in English.

the minimum threshold is ''C6'' at the secondary school level  which every candidate is expected to possess even though some schools up north accept ''D7'' but the point still remain that most people that failed English do actually speak English fluently however they failed the subject in exams.which means that they consider their ability to speak English as being intelligent.

~Bluetooth:

there was no where i disputed against proficiency in English but using grmmar as a measurement of intelligence what i disagree on.You don't need sophisticated English to communicate as an engineer or whatsoever,your ability to converse in a form that your clients understand is what i'm talking about.If you look at patrick obaiagbon,will you call him an intelligent person simply because he lives in a world of his where he communicate with spirits instead of human ? the minimum threshold is ''C6'' at the secondary school level  which every candidate is expected to possess even though some schools up north accept ''D7'' but the point still remain that most people that failed English do actually speak English fluently however they failed the subject in exams.which means that they consider their ability to speak English as being intelligent.

However there are loads of people that speak English fluently but ungrammatically.
In that regard , the system cannot and should not test mere fluency but rather comprehension, and communication skills.
The point is that without a good grasp of grammar and vocabularly the student cannot be said to have mastered English language, irrespective of the number of words per minute he is able to utter without halting.

~Bluetooth:

there was no where i disputed against proficiency in English but using grammar as a measurement of intelligence is what i disagree on.You don't need sophisticated English to communicate as an engineer or whatsoever,your ability to converse in a form that your clients understand is what i'm talking about.If you look at patrick obaiagbon,will you call him an intelligent person simply because he lives in a world of his own where he communicate with spirits instead of human ? the minimum threshold is ''C6'' at the secondary school level  which every candidate is expected to possess even though some schools up north accept ''D7'' but the point still remain that most people that failed English do actually speak English fluently however they failed the subject in exams.which means that they consider their ability to speak English as being intelligent.

Hmmm. . . . I see what you mean. But do you agree that there is a connection right?

But I dont get Nigerians tho, so because English was not our first language means that we shouldnt consider English as an element, not a determining element tho, of intelligence?
When a person does bad in Math, we say the person is not smart in math. When a person does bad in Science, we say the person is not good in science. So why should English not count? English is a subject and a required course, it's not just a language. Therefore if a STUDENT cannot speak and write good English in a country where English dictates the way we communicate and in a country where English is an official language, then that person should be scolded.

But I understand a situation where the person has not had an opportunity to be schooled in the English Language.

tensor777:

Honsestly what are you rambling about.?

EVERY educational measurement system in the world puts prime emphasis on testing literacy and numeracy skills. That is language and maths are of fundamental importance. There is nothing progressive whatsoever about not focusing on this vital aspect of learning.

That some people are able to memorise facts and get top grades is not a cogent reason to do away with language testing.

We care too much about what others are doing. How about we actually start something of our own.

Sagamite:

So you recognise it is a problem?

It is a problem that children have no idea why they are being taught certain things. English should be an option.

Kobojunkie:

Just so we can agree on something, the fact that kids are taught English in school is not the root of the problem, right?

No.

tensor777:

What is all this root of problem talk.

It is rather obvious that a lot of university undergraduates did not have the opportunity to go to good English speaking schools in their formative years. That is the issue: the dearth of these nursery/primary schools in Nigeria, not the language itself.

What we have now is that federal universities have to serve as remedial centres for those   deficient in these vital literacy skills otherwise these students would find it very difficult to sail through the university system.

LOL.

tensor777:

However there are loads of people that speak English fluently but ungrammatically.
In that regard , the system cannot and should not test mere fluency but rather comprehension, and communication skills.
The point is that without a good grasp of grammar and vocabularly the student cannot be said to have mastered English language, irrespective of the number of words per minute he is able to utter without halting.

Gbam. . .this is what the government should find solutions to.