Frenchkiss564:


During my university days salafis almost destroyed the Muslim community, they hijacked MSSN, condemned group zikr, condemned muslims greeting each other jumah Mubarak they said the sahabas never did it.

This did not go down well with the lecturers, the conflict got to the point that mosques in OAU halls of residence are still closed to this day.

Sultan of sokoto, Etsu of Nupe, MUSWAN had to step in to relief tension.

This is shocking. Most of the so-called salafis could be reckless sometimes. The way they go about foisting their aqeedah on everyone does not portray them as true allu sunnah. If I hadn't met a few good ones I would have thought that the sect was based on hate. I have come to realise that most of the recklessness and extremism shown by the various sects, first, have to do with the individuals involved rather than the sects themselves. For instance, some of the Sufi guys, especially the yoruba ones, have come across here in Lagos are in to shirk. In fact, it got to a point in my life when I started contemplating whether witches could be as powerful as the almighty Allah SWT. This stemmed from the kind of sermons I was listening to by these people then, but not all sufists would espouse such obvious shirk. And then we have heard about cases of some shia cursing some sahaba, cutting themselves (self-flagellation) to supposedly share in imam Hussein's (RA) suffering during his murder, and so on. And again not all of them do these. (Albaqir, if you know of any Shia masjid in Lagos come I can go to worship sometimes. I have to know these people not just believing all the shocking things I hear about them.)
So it's the individuals not necessarily the sects per se. It's why I always say our beloved Prophet would be utterly disappointed in us, even with self-styled Allu sunnah.

aadoiza:

This is shocking. Most of the so-called salafis could be reckless sometimes. The way they go about foisting their aqeedah on everyone does not portray them as true allu sunnah. If I hadn't met a few good ones I would have thought that the sect was based on hate. I have come to realise that most of the recklessness and extremism shown by the various sects, first, have to do with the individuals involved rather than the sects themselves. For instance, some of the Sufi guys, especially the yoruba ones, have come across here in Lagos are in to shirk. In fact, it got to a point in my life when I started contemplating whether witches could be as powerful as the almighty Allah SWT. This stemmed from the kind of sermons I was listening to by these people then, but not all sufists would espouse such obvious shirk. And then we have heard about cases of some shia cursing some sahaba, cutting themselves (self-flagellation) to supposedly share in imam Hussein's (RA) suffering during his murder, and so on. And again not all of them do these. (Albaqir, if you know of any Shia masjid in Lagos come I can go to worship sometimes. I have to know these people not just believing all the shocking things I hear about them.)
So it's the individuals not necessarily the sects per se. It's why I always say our beloved Prophet would be utterly disappointed in us, even with self-styled Allu sunnah.

About the salafist, I feel they have a hidden agenda but are hiding under the pretext of sunna to achieve it. If the prophet had practised Islam the way they practice it now few people will accept it from him, heck he even warned us against extremism in religion.

I used to be very wary about the sufis just like you and this is due to the traces of shirk I see from these so called sufis. Instances like bowing to the picture of Ibrahim niyas, and stuffs like that gives credence to my wariness. It was Empiree that changed my perspective about them, he said we should look at the basis and not how some misguided people claiming to be sufis proclaim sufis to be. Sufism in its true and pure form was based on the glorification and remembrance of Allah which has over the years been corrupted. We dont judge islam based on the madness of ISIS and boko haram.

About the shias cutting themselves to share in the pains of the progeny of the prophet I don't think it is part of the basis of shiasm so many shia scholars have condemned it in its entirety. I think sunnis like playing this card to portray shias in bad light.

I recently went on a voyage of discovery about shiasm bro, what I found out is still shocking to me. All I can say for now is that I believe in the superiority of Ali above all other caliphs, this believe is reinforced by numerous hadiths one of which the prophet calls himself the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate. And please shia don't worship Ali.

left for me I wish there is no sect or division in Islam, it breeds contempt and sectionalism which will do muslims no good. It blinds people from seeing the beauty of true Islam.

Frenchkiss564:


During my university days salafis almost destroyed the Muslim community, they hijacked MSSN, condemned group zikr, condemned muslims greeting each other jumah Mubarak they said the sahabas never did it.

This did not go down well with the lecturers, the conflict got to the point that mosques in OAU halls of residence are still closed to this day.

Sultan of sokoto, Etsu of Nupe, MUSWAN had to step in to relief tension.

I think in few years, this nonsense will stop in nigeria altogether or decrease significantly. The idea was transported to Nigeria. It used to be like that in Western world. I do not hate our salafist brother whatsoever. I don't even like to use the term to address any muslim. But when they try to impose their ideology on others that 'this is the way nabi did this and that", then it becomes problem. So this you just narrated also happened in NYC some years back on Eld Fitr. Eld Fitr faah over group dhikr. You know before salah starts we sit and do dhikr collectively. This is how it is done for decades everywhere around the world. But these salafi brothers somehow said this is not sunnah. That everyone should say their dhikr loud but individually. Does this make sense?. This brings us back to taraweeh. If everyone does loud dhikr but individually there would be confusion. For insance, Brother A is saying Allahu Akbar(3x) while brother B sitting next to him is saying Allahu Akbar kabira Walihamdulilah Kasira and so on. You just confuse your neighbour like this. This is why S. Umar(r) brought together different muslim groups in the masjid under one jamaah.

So on this particular eld there was commotion. Salafists (pakistani origin and Americans citizens) started shouting "bidah bidah in the house of Allah". And there was almost fists fight if not for timely intervention of ulama nearby, Muslims would have been laughing stock that day. Salafists only recently(2yrs ago) on eld agreed that loud unison group dhikr was okay. Wallahi i was sitting next to one on Eld. While everyone recited dhikr collectively, the brother made sure he contradicted us. While we are saying Allahu Akbar, he swiftly jumped to the end of dhikr to distinguish himself from he rest. He confused me self. The following Eld fitr(2017), he led us in collective group dhikr. i guess he learned over the year. So this thing has significantly reduced in the west and there is less argument now. It is now transported to Africa.

As for those fake sufi, there problem is ignorance just like those ignorant Salafists. Sometimes they dont want to seek knowledge at all. It is their type that will later tell you sufism is shirk bcus that's what they did..

About the salafist, I feel they have a hidden agenda but are hiding under the pretext of sunna to achieve it. If the prophet had practised Islam the way they practice it now few people will accept it from him, heck he even warned us against extremism in religion.

Only time will tell.
At the emboldened sentence, that they fail to realise.

I used to be very wary about the sufis just like you and this is due to the traces of shirk I see from these so called sufis. Instances like bowing to the picture of Ibrahim niyas, and stuffs like that gives credence to my wariness. It was Empiree that changed my perspective about them, he said we should look at the basis and not how some misguided people claiming to be sufis proclaim sufis to be. Sufism in its true and pure form was based on the glorification and remembrance of Allah which has over the years been corrupted. We dont judge islam based on the madness of ISIS and boko haram.

I love this. It seems you all do reflect on most of these issues. I didn't even know then they were called Sufi even though I grew up in their midst. All I knew was some were called tijaniyyah, some qadiriyyah (this i used to identify with), but l wasn't very proud about ways.

The height of my disillusionment with tijaniyyah was when a sheik, I went for his asalatu, said Niyyas was the Holy Prophet's incarnate just as Amadu tijani was, and I just couldn't wait to leave that gathering. However; I have always known how how these sufis always stay awake at night to do dhikr, though some of them don't observe salah. I thought about their love of dhikr for a very long time and said to myself, sheik Adam, Sambo, Salati, et al, could not all have been wrong and asked myself why would these great respectable scholars deliberately choose the path of shaytan? While still reflecting on this, I told my big brother that if there is anything like pristine sufism the sufis will be the best among Muslims for their constant remembrance of Allah.
Not too long ago, I started reading Sheikh Empiree's exposition on sufism and it clicked.

About the shias cutting themselves to share in the pains of the progeny of the prophet I don't think it is part of the basis of shiasm so many shia scholars have condemned it in its entirety. I think sunnis like playing this card to portray shias in bad light.

I recently went on a voyage of discovery about shiasm bro, what I found out is still shocking to me. All I can say for now is that I believe in the superiority of Ali above all other caliphs, this believe is reinforced by numerous hadiths one of which the prophet calls himself the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate. And please shia don't worship Ali.

I don't know if I should hold any belief in the superiority one of them over the others, but one thing is certain, the sunnis seem to believe the first three khalifas after Rasool were superior to Ali, and I think that's why they would mention those ones 10 times before Ali but they don't hate him like the Shia say. Personally, I have come to favour Imam Ali more, especially after reading about what was done to him and his family by our fellow Muslim brothers ( I read the horrific account here first either by LagosShia or Albaqir).
I want to have a first-hand experience of shiism like you, brother, not just guzzling the disinformation littering our airways. It's sickening!!!

left for me I wish there is no sect or division in Islam, it breeds contempt and sectionalism which will do muslims no good. It blinds people from seeing the beauty of true Islam.

Ultimately, this should be the goal of every modern-day Muslims. Let's forget whatever brought about this insidious schism in our religion, after all none of us played a role in its genesis, and chart a new unifying course for the Ummah. Is this too much to ask?

Empiree:
Wallahi i was sitting next to one on Eld. While everyone recite dhikr collectively, the brother made sure he contradicted us. While we are saying Allahu Akbar, he swiftly jumped to the end of dhikr to distinguish himself from he rest. He confused me self.

Empire, ku ku come and kee me. You wan kee me with tough questions on one thread and laff on this one

As for those fake sufi, there problem is ignorant just like those ignorant Salafists. Sometimes they dont want to seek knowledge at all. It is their type that will later tell you sufism is shirk bcus that's what they did..

YES!!! The olodos are to blame for the mess

aadoiza:
I love this. It seems you all do reflect on most of these issues. I didn't even know then they were called Sufi even though I grew up in their midst. All I knew was some were called tijaniyyah, some qadiriyyah (this i used to identify with), but l wasn't very proud about ways.


The height of my disillusionment with tijaniyyah was when a sheik, I went for his asalatu, said Niyyas was the Holy Prophet's incarnate just as Amadu tijani was, and I just couldn't wait to leave that gathering. However; I have always known how how these sufis always stay awake at night to do dhikr, though some of them don't observe salah. I thought about their love of dhikr for a very long time and said to myself, sheik Adam, Sambo, Salati, et al, could not all have been wrong and asked myself why would these great respectable scholars deliberately choose the path of shaytan? While still reflecting on this, I told my big brother that if there is anything like pristine sufism the sufis will be the best among Muslims for their constant remembrance of Allah.
Not too long ago, I started reading Sheikh Empir.ee's exposition on sufism and it clicked.

it was more about the practice then than the name. Today it is now about name than the practical. I heard of the word "Sufism" first time in 2010 in sheikh imran Hussein's lecture. From discriptions and definition I came to realized most of world of Islam have always been Sufi. For instance in my household in the 80s and 90s my sheikh would only say "awón oniwiridi". It is Yoruba word for Sufism. And ilorin is the den of wiridi. I'm just sick of charlatans. They are sick in the head. I even heard that some of them recite solati fatih in place of Sura Fathia in salat. This is obvious bidiah and must be condemned. They have no salat. Although I have not personally witnessed this.

I don't know if I should hold any belief in the superiority one of them over the others, but one thing is certain, the sunnis seem to believe the first three khalifas after Rasool were superior to Ali, and I think that's why they would mention those ones 10 times before Ali but they don't hate him like the Shia say. Personally, I have come to favour Imam Ali more, especially after reading about what was done to him and his family by our fellow Muslim brothers ( I read the horrific account here first either by LagosShia or Albaqir).
I want to have a first-hand experience of shiism like you, brother, not just guzzling the disinformation littering our airways. It's sickening!!!


Ultimately, this should be the goal of every modern-day Muslims. Let's forget whatever brought about this insidious schism in our religion, after all none of us played a role in its genesis, and chart a new unifying course for the Ummah. Is this too much to ask?

I don't think it is about superiority over Ali(ra). I think they mentioned the first 3 the most due to succession.

Now, I have learned further over the years and recently when I spoke with ilorin based Alfa. He said "truly, Ali was actually and was supposed to be the first caliph of Islam but this is òrò inúle". Exactly how he put it.

I certainly understand even from long ago. But Shia approach just can be wrong about the issue of succession and especially for cursing sahaba regardless of their status. This is wrong.

So if we look at it critically, no father would want external body to inherit him. Prophet Muhammad (saw) would definitely wanted Ali to be his successor whether immediately after him or later. This is why I see no reason for ummah to fight over this because, at the end of the day, Ali became caliph.


We have examples all around us. A good father, imam, sheikh or public figure would not want his son to be at the forefront of everything. Instead, you let your son humble himself and lay low while learning. He son will later ascends his father's position sooner or later. Take a look at Sheikh Adam (ra), after he passed away, sheikh Habeeb did not become mudir immediately after him. It took years. It was someone else in that position. Perhaps, non-relative. I don't know who that was. Sheikh Adam's family is parallel to Nabi Muhammad (saw). After Sheikh Habeeb ascended rector of murkaz that's when disagreement about succession and rivalry started within the family especially btw sheikh Habeeb and his brother, sheikh Thaoban till this day.

Similarly, household of Nabi with respect to succession is at war till this day. My point is, blood relative (s) will always be successor. No public figure would want external people to take over his position after him. This is why Sheikh Habeeb and his brother had arguments. They have different accounts of whom their father appointed to be mudir. Either way, none of them was mudir immediately after him it was external body bcuz I'm sure sheik Habeeb and his brother were somewhat young at the time. Which means S. Ali (ra) was a young lad too.

Their father relegated their statuses when he was alive so that they do not show off. This is what Nabi Muhammad did. He used to place Abu Bakr at the forefront but this doesn't mean he knows better than Ali.

Allow me to narrated a story that I do not have reference for . It was said that before Prophet (saw) passed away he informed his sahaba that none of them should inherit his minbar. After he passed away, no one prayed at his minbar during caliph Abu Bakr all through caliph Usman (ra). That's quite number of decades until Ali (ra) became kalipha. He ascent the minbar and prayed there.

Other companions who were aware of the prophet' instruction rebuked Ali and reiterated Nabi's warning that no one should inherit his "minbar". It is at this time Sayyidina Ali(ra) now interpreted the meaning of minbar. He said what Nabi Muhammad (saw) meant by minbar were his wives. That's, no one should inherit his wives after him, not prayer station.

aadoiza, Frenchkiss564

Salam alaykum dear brothers, I read all your comments from start to finish, attentively. No doubt you commentted from your heart based on your experience etc. I agree with your points in general.

However, aadoiza said, "I don't know if I should hold any belief in the superiority one of them over the others". My simple reply is why not if there are undeniable evidences? If Quran can say some Prophets are superior than others; and (also Quran says) some sahabah are superior than others, then what is big deal in researching into the matter of the first 4 Caliphs? Let's put aside sectarian emotions and embrace pure and thorough academic research.

That issue is extensively discussed here:
www.nairaland.com/3084627/did-some-sahaba-preferred-ali

https://www.nairaland.com/3038732/identifying-khulafau-rashidun-rightly-guided

Kindly find time to read.

aadoiza, there is no shia mosque in Lagos and Shia is not planning to have one in the southwest Nigeria. Exceess mosques does nothing but create divisions. However, there are few Shia centers in the southwest. Besides, there is a Shia sheik that leads prayer in a local mosque in Lagos Island and he's even the chief mufasir of Lagos Island central mosque.


Empiree, as much as I agreed with your points, there two ishkal in them:

1. Somehow you still continue to stylishly accuse Shia as "sahabah cursers". That might not be intended but the moment you write or talk in general without exception, no one will be interested in your intentions.

Just like you wouldn't want Sunni to be generalized with the actions of boko haram and isis (despite having same aqeedah and fiqh stand), it is important not to use general statement for Shia cursing sahabah.

Shia and sahabah in your comment are too general.

2. You said you agree Ali was supposed to be the rightful caliph but at the end he later became the caliph of the Muslim; so that shouldn't generate to what it is today.

My brother, although your thought is sincere but if you know the implications of that thought, you wouldn't go into such submission. The hadith of the Prophet:

* "Whoever dies without recognizing/pledging allegiance to the Amir/Imam/Caliph of his time, does the death of jahiliyyah"

* I left two weighty things/two Caliphs: if you adhere to them both, you will NEVER go astray: the book of Allah and my ahl al-bayt, my offspring. Both shall NEVER separate from each other..."

The implication of your statement is that those who died before Ali got to power and those who refused to give allegiance to Ali even till date died the death of jahiliyyah and are on the path of misguidance.

Why was Bibi Fatima NEVER gave allegiance to Caliph Abubakar and never spoken with him till she died? Do you think it was just about the fadak land brouhaha?

We might not accept lots of things but at least let's not shy away from facts especially when there are undeniable evidences to support it.

Empiree:
it was more about the practice then than the name. Today it is now about name than the practical. I heard of the word "Sufism" first time in 2010 in sheikh imran Hussein's lecture. From discriptions and definition I came to realized most of world of Islam have always been Sufi. For instance in my household in the 80s and 90s my sheikh would only say "awón oniwiridi". It is Yoruba word for Sufism. And ilorin is the den of wiridi. I'm just sick of charlatans. They are sick in the head. I even heard that some of them recite solati fatih in place of Sura Fathia in salat. This is obvious bidiah and must be condemned. They have no salat. Although I have not personally witnessed this.

Subhanallah, so "awon alfa oni wuridi" mean awon alfa Sufi.


[quote[
I don't think it is about superiority over Ali(ra). I think they mentioned the first 3 the most due to succession.[/quote]
Al least, my observation was correct. I may not know the exact reason for this though.

Now, I have learned further over the years and recently when I spoke with ilorin based Alfa. He said "truly, Ali was actually and was supposed to be the first caliph of Islam but this is òrò inúle". Exactly how he put it.

Look at the bold. This is why I don't like history, it's too subjective to worth anything. They knew the ramifications of what they did to Ali and decided to bury it. Okay, denying him his rights may be overlooked, but why perpetuating the myth that seyidinah Ali RA was meddling with affairs beyond his station. This is not fair. How can I trust I have got the truth when majority of our most powerful predecessors were dodgy fellows.

I certainly understand even from long ago. But Shia approach just can be wrong about the issue of succession and especially for cursing sahaba regardless of their status. This is wrong.

Yeah I kinda think so too. Shia approach to bring out the truth is
not very subtle but when people seem to be comfortable with lies the only way to awaken to the truth is make as much noise as possible.

So if we look at it critically, no father would want external body to inherit him. Prophet Muhammad (saw) would definitely wanted Ali to be his successor whether immediately after him or later. This is why I see no reason for ummah to fight over this because, at the end of the day, Ali became caliph.

There would have been no reason to fight over this, if only the same Ummah had condemned what these people did and pray for their for their forgiveness, trust me, things would have been a lot nicer.

We have examples all around us. A good father, imam, sheikh or public figure would not want his son to be at the forefront of everything. Instead, you let your son humble himself and lay low while learning. He son will later ascends his father's position sooner or later. Take a look at Sheikh Adam (ra), after he passed away, sheikh Habeeb did not become mudir immediately after him. It took years. It was someone else in that position. Perhaps, non-relative. I don't know who that was. Sheikh Adam's family is parallel to Nabi Muhammad (saw). After Sheikh Habeeb ascended rector of murkaz that's when disagreement about succession and rivalry started within the family especially btw sheikh Habeeb and his brother, sheikh Thaoban till this day.

Similarly, household of Nabi with respect to succession is at war till this day. My point is, blood relative (s) will always be successor. No public figure would want external people to take over his position after him. This is why Sheikh Habeeb and his brother had arguments. They have different accounts of whom their father appointed to be mudir. Either way, none of them was mudir immediately after him it was external body bcuz I'm sure sheik Habeeb and his brother were somewhat young at the time. Which means S. Ali (ra) was a young lad too.

Their father relegated their statuses when he was alive so that they do not show off. This is what Nabi Muhammad did. He used to place Abu Bakr at the forefront but this doesn't mean he knows better than Ali.

This is wisdom awon agba, however you want to look at it. It also shows that Rasool did not trust these people enough to proclaim Ali his successor before them and ask them to pledge their fealty to him I.e. He feared for Seyidinah Ali in the midst of the famed rightly guided caliphs, interesting, ain't it? Ali, who had fought in several wars and been challenged to duels, with his wisdom could not be said to be not ripe enough to hold the mantle of leadership of the Ummah, that'd be unacceptable.

Allow me to narrated a story that I do not have reference for . It was said that before Prophet (saw) passed away he informed his sahaba that none of them should inherit his minbar. After he passed away, no one prayed at his minbar during caliph Abu Bakr all through caliph Usman (ra). That's quite number of decades until Ali (ra) became kalipha. He ascent the minbar and prayed there.

Other companions who were aware of the prophet' instruction rebuked Ali and reiterated Nabi's warning that no one should inherit his "minbar". It is at this time Sayyidina Ali(ra) now interpreted the meaning of minbar. He said what Nabi Muhammad (saw) meant by minbar was his wives. That's, no one should inherit his wives after him, not prayer station.

Why I'm I not too surprised? He was wiser than them and the closest to Rasool..

aadoiza:


Only time will tell.
At the emboldened sentence, that they fail to realise.



I love this. It seems you all do reflect on most of these issues. I didn't even know then they were called Sufi even though I grew up in their midst. All I knew was some were called tijaniyyah, some qadiriyyah (this i used to identify with), but l wasn't very proud about ways.

The height of my disillusionment with tijaniyyah was when a sheik, I went for his asalatu, said Niyyas was the Holy Prophet's incarnate just as Amadu tijani was, and I just couldn't wait to leave that gathering. However; I have always known how how these sufis always stay awake at night to do dhikr, though some of them don't observe salah. I thought about their love of dhikr for a very long time and said to myself, sheik Adam, Sambo, Salati, et al, could not all have been wrong and asked myself why would these great respectable scholars deliberately choose the path of shaytan? While still reflecting on this, I told my big brother that if there is anything like pristine sufism the sufis will be the best among Muslims for their constant remembrance of Allah.
Not too long ago, I started reading Sheikh Empiree's exposition on sufism and it clicked.



I don't know if I should hold any belief in the superiority one of them over the others, but one thing is certain, the sunnis seem to believe the first three khalifas after Rasool were superior to Ali, and I think that's why they would mention those ones 10 times before Ali but they don't hate him like the Shia say. Personally, I have come to favour Imam Ali more, especially after reading about what was done to him and his family by our fellow Muslim brothers ( I read the horrific account here first either by LagosShia or Albaqir).
I want to have a first-hand experience of shiism like you, brother, not just guzzling the disinformation littering our airways. It's sickening!!!


Ultimately, this should be the goal of every modern-day Muslims. Let's forget whatever brought about this insidious schism in our religion, after all none of us played a role in its genesis, and chart a new unifying course for the Ummah. Is this too much to ask?

May Allah have mercy on us Muslims, death of muslims from fellow muslims seems to be even more than from non muslims.

Empiree:
it was more about the practice then than the name. Today it is now about name than the practical. I heard of the word "Sufism" first time in 2010 in sheikh imran Hussein's lecture. From discriptions and definition I came to realized most of world of Islam have always been Sufi. For instance in my household in the 80s and 90s my sheikh would only say "awón oniwiridi". It is Yoruba word for Sufism. And ilorin is the den of wiridi. I'm just sick of charlatans. They are sick in the head. I even heard that some of them recite solati fatih in place of Sura Fathia in salat. This is obvious bidiah and must be condemned. They have no salat. Although I have not personally witnessed this.



I don't think it is about superiority over Ali(ra). I think they mentioned the first 3 the most due to succession.

Now, I have learned further over the years and recently when I spoke with ilorin based Alfa. He said "truly, Ali was actually and was supposed to be the first caliph of Islam but this is òrò inúle". Exactly how he put it.

I certainly understand even from long ago. But Shia approach just can be wrong about the issue of succession and especially for cursing sahaba regardless of their status. This is wrong.

So if we look at it critically, no father would want external body to inherit him. Prophet Muhammad (saw) would definitely wanted Ali to be his successor whether immediately after him or later. This is why I see no reason for ummah to fight over this because, at the end of the day, Ali became caliph.


We have examples all around us. A good father, imam, sheikh or public figure would not want his son to be at the forefront of everything. Instead, you let your son humble himself and lay low while learning. He son will later ascends his father's position sooner or later. Take a look at Sheikh Adam (ra), after he passed away, sheikh Habeeb did not become mudir immediately after him. It took years. It was someone else in that position. Perhaps, non-relative. I don't know who that was. Sheikh Adam's family is parallel to Nabi Muhammad (saw). After Sheikh Habeeb ascended rector of murkaz that's when disagreement about succession and rivalry started within the family especially btw sheikh Habeeb and his brother, sheikh Thaoban till this day.

Similarly, household of Nabi with respect to succession is at war till this day. My point is, blood relative (s) will always be successor. No public figure would want external people to take over his position after him. This is why Sheikh Habeeb and his brother had arguments. They have different accounts of whom their father appointed to be mudir. Either way, none of them was mudir immediately after him it was external body bcuz I'm sure sheik Habeeb and his brother were somewhat young at the time. Which means S. Ali (ra) was a young lad too.

Their father relegated their statuses when he was alive so that they do not show off. This is what Nabi Muhammad did. He used to place Abu Bakr at the forefront but this doesn't mean he knows better than Ali.

Allow me to narrated a story that I do not have reference for . It was said that before Prophet (saw) passed away he informed his sahaba that none of them should inherit his minbar. After he passed away, no one prayed at his minbar during caliph Abu Bakr all through caliph Usman (ra). That's quite number of decades until Ali (ra) became kalipha. He ascent the minbar and prayed there.

Other companions who were aware of the prophet' instruction rebuked Ali and reiterated Nabi's warning that no one should inherit his "minbar". It is at this time Sayyidina Ali(ra) now interpreted the meaning of minbar. He said what Nabi Muhammad (saw) meant by minbar was his wives. That's, no one should inherit his wives after him, not prayer station.

Ali is really really knowledgeable, I read one of his brilliant poems the way it was written, its deep meaning, its consonance with modern day science really swept me off my feet.

Frenchkiss564:


May Allah have mercy on us Muslims, death of muslims from fellow muslims seems to be even more than from non muslims.

Our predecessors laid the groundwork for that and it's so evident in Saudi's activities today. Shame!

AlBaqir:
aadoiza, Frenchkiss564

Salam alaykum dear brothers, I read all your comments from start to finish, attentively. No doubt you commentted from your heart based on your experience etc. I agree with your points in general.

However, aadoiza said, "I don't know if I should hold any belief in the superiority one of them over the others". My simple reply is why not if there are undeniable evidences? If Quran can say some Prophets are superior than others; and (also Quran says) some sahabah are superior than others, then what is big deal in researching into the matter of the first 4 Caliphs? Let's put aside sectarian emotions and embrace pure and thorough academic research.

That issue is extensively discussed here:
www.nairaland.com/3084627/did-some-sahaba-preferred-ali

https://www.nairaland.com/3038732/identifying-khulafau-rashidun-rightly-guided

Kindly find time to read.

Wa alaykum salam
I'm not saying it's all bad having a favourite sahabi, nah. I just want to take my time to study Ali but can't do so now 'cos life's still chocking my hustle. And I want to reinforce it in my subconscious that seyidinah Ali was also human, as what I got with some of the other sahaba nearly made me despise them.

aadoiza, there is no shia mosque in Lagos and Shia is not planning to have one in the southwest Nigeria. Exceess mosques does nothing but create divisions. However, there are few Shia centers in the southwest. Besides, there is a Shia sheik that leads prayer in a local mosque in Lagos Island and he's even the chief mufasir of Lagos Island central mosque.

Are you insinuating that Shia are allowed to pray in sunni mosques, behind sunni imams? Subhanallah, the disinfo is real.

2. You said you agree Ali was supposed to be the rightful caliph but at the end he later became the caliph of the Muslim; so that shouldn't generate to what it is today.

At least, he's sincere enough to admit Ali should have succeeded the Holy Prophet, so I give it to him on that, and that's why he's my man. Unlike most, who would go to any lengths to annoyingly and shamelessly defend the indefensible. Shame on them for refusing to speak the truth.

AlBaqir:


Emp.iree, as much as I agreed with your points, there two ishkal in them:

1. Somehow you still continue to stylishly accuse Shia as "sahabah cursers". That might not be intended but the moment you write or talk in general without exception, no one will be interested in your intentions.

I did this deliberately knowing you would object. I generalized only for the purpose of awareness. I am not unaware that you don't curse all sahaba. My point was simply to avoid cursing aslaf regardless of what they might have done. Let Allah decides there fate because, at the end of the day Allah will not ask our generation what they used to do. By we may be sinning for cursing them.

2. You said you agree Ali was supposed to be the rightful caliph but at the end he later became the caliph of the Muslim; so that shouldn't generate to what it is today.

See, things happened for a reason. What if he actually ascended kalifa first and was killed the very next day?. Look around you today in Nigeria. All or most of the households of awliya Allah are having rival issues but this doesn't in anyway suggests or robs them off of their awliya status. As great as Sheikh Nasir kabara of Kano was his children are at each other's throats. Look at Sheikh Adam, his children are at each other's throats and it will continue like this till qiyama. Allah allows this fitna to reign as test and trial for household of His servants. He later picks from amongst them those who apply wisdom during this time. Roads are not always smooth.

My brother, although your thought is sincere but if you know the implications of that thought, you wouldn't go into such submission. The hadith of the Prophet:

* "Whoever dies without recognizing/pledging allegiance to the Amir/Imam/Caliph of his time, does the death of jahiliyyah"

* I left two weighty things/two Caliphs: if you adhere to them both, you will NEVER go astray: the book of Allah and my ahl al-bayt, my offspring. Both shall NEVER separate from each other..."

The implication of your statement is that those who died before Ali got to power and those who refused to give allegiance to Ali even till date died the death of jahiliyyah and are on the path of misguidance.



Why was Bibi Fatima NEVER gave allegiance to Caliph Abubakar and never spoken with him till she died? Do you think it was just about the fadak land brouhaha?

We might not accept lots of things but at least let's not shy away from facts especially when there are undeniable evidences to support it.

it was normal for s. Fatima (ra) to oppose s. Abu Bakr (ra) for obvious reasons. As for the Hadith of two weighty, a Muslim must not exclude household of the prophet or relegate them. This is why in my family we always included alhuBayt in 1000 salawat we chanted daily

Empiree:
I think in few years, this nonsense will stop in nigeria altogether or decrease significantly. The idea was transported to Nigeria. It used to be like that in Western world. I do not hate our salafist brother whatsoever. I don't even like to use the term to address any muslim. But when they try to impose their ideology on others that 'this is the way nabi did this and that", then it becomes problem. So this you just narrated also happened in NYC some years back on Eld Fitr. Eld Fitr faah over group dhikr. You know before salah starts we sit and do dhikr collectively. This is how it was done for decades everywhere around the world. But these salafis brothers somehow said this is not sunnah. That everyone should say their dhikr loud but individually. Does this make sense?. This brings us back to taraweeh. If everyone does loud dhikr but individually there would be confusion. For insance, Brother A is saying Allahu Akbar(3x) while brother B sitting next to him is saying Allahu Akbar kabira Walihamdulilah Kasira and so on. You just confuse your neighbour like this. This is why S. Umar(r) brought together different muslim groups in the masjid under one jamaah.

So on this particular eld there was commotion. Salafist (pakistani origin and Americans citizens) started shouting "bidah bidah in the house of Allah". And there was almost fists fight if not for timely intervention of ulama nearby, Muslims would have been laughing stock that day. Salafists only recently(2yrs ago) on eld agreed that loud unison group dhikr was okay. Wallahi i was sitting next to one on Eld. While everyone recite dhikr collectively, the brother made sure he contradicted us. While we are saying Allahu Akbar, he swiftly jumped to the end of dhikr to distinguish himself from he rest. He confused me self. The following Eld fitr(2017), he led us in collective group dhikr. i guess he learned over the year. So this thing has significantly reduced in the west and there is less argument now. It is now transported to Africa.

As for those fake sufi, there problem is ignorance just like those ignorant Salafists. Sometimes they dont want to seek knowledge at all. It is their type that will later tell you sufism is shirk bcus that's what they did..

So this comes down to an issue of balance.
Between using your (God given) brain to solve a problem and serve Allah, and avoiding any bidiah that will lead you away from the Sunnah and towards shirk.
Or something like that.

IMAliyu:

So this comes down to an issue of balance.
Between using your (God given) brain to solve a problem and serve Allah, and avoiding any bidiah that will lead you away from the Sunnah and towards shirk.
Or something like that.

if someone is doing something totally questionable and not in compliance with Sharia, and he believes what he's doing with all his heart and soul, this is aqeeda issue.


For example,

a Muslim believes it is normal to make sujud to the grave.


a Muslim believes it is normal to replace surah fatiha solati fatih or Ibrahimiya


See these, are bidiah that are not acceptable. There former leads to shirk. The later simply voids Salah.


But on the issue of whether group Dua, group dhikr, making dua after every salah email are allowed, these are base on differences of opinions. Even there are evidences in the sunnah for these I just mentioned. They may mean bidiah to some people but definitely not to me.

Empiree:
I did this deliberately knowing you would object. I generalized only for the purpose of awareness. I am not unaware that you don't curse all sahaba. My point was simply to avoid cursing aslaf regardless of what they might have done. Let Allah decides there fate because, at the end of the day Allah will not ask our generation what they used to do. By we may be sinning for cursing them.

Sometimes you present yourself as if you believe in a part of the Quran and silently reject other part.

Whether you like it or not, Allah Himself has laid curse upon pseudo-Sahabah in His glorious book. Whether you like it or not, authentic ahadith exist that Prophet himself laid curse upon pseudo-Sahabah. Whether you like it or not, evidences abound that some sahabah cursed other sahabah.

So why shying away from reality as if cursing fake, munafiqun sahabah is a big deal?

Yet, upon all these overwhelming evidences, just like the salafi, you are equally playing that sympathetic card, "Shia are cursing the Sahabah".

And cursing is not an automatic magnet. If A is cursed or prayed for and did not deserved it, none of it will reach him. Imam Ali was cursed on the pulpit of Banu Umayah for more than 80 years. Imam Ali (alayhi salam) was depicted as shaytan. So if a Shia cursed a sahabi that Allah and His messenger cursed, how's that a big deal?

Upon all these, All the Shia maraji declared cursing ANY of the Sahabah or wife of the Prophet as HARAM. This was unanimous fatwa of Shia Ulama. Yet, this is not appreciated, Shia continues to be maligned as "Sahabah cursers". Please face reality: if our ulama declared cursing pseudo- Sahabah as wajib, salafi cannot do more than what they are doing against Shia: maligning them and suicide bombing them.

The more Shia is trying hard for Muslim unity, the more Shia is being treated as kuffar by the uninformed Sunni.

Empiree:

See, things happened for a reason. What if he actually ascended kalifa first and was killed the very next day?. Look around you today in Nigeria. All or most of the households of awliya Allah are having rival issues but this doesn't in anyway suggests or robs them off of their awliya status. As great as Sheikh Nasir kabara of Kano was his children are at each other's throats. Look at Sheikh Adam, his children are at each other's throats and it will continue like this till qiyama. Allah allows this fitna to reign as test and trial for household of His servants. He later picks from amongst them those who apply wisdom during this time. Roads are not always smooth.

Only Allah knows tomorrow not you. It is not ours to peep into, "what if he dies the next day". Ours is to see the truth and accept the truth. Period. Allegiance to he whom Allah and His Messenger appointed is the confirmation of one's Iman.

Making a parallel analogy between Prophet's declaration of Imam Ali as his immediate successor and Sheik Adam's sons tussle for their baba's successorship is far too low of a submission.

We are talking of what will confirm one's belief or Mar it. Here is my brother talking of Agege caliphate

Empiree:

it was normal for s. Fatima (ra) to oppose s. Abu Bakr (ra) for obvious reasons. As for the Hadith of two weighty, a Muslim must not exclude household of the prophet or relegate them. This is why in my family we always included alhuBayt in 1000 salawat we chanted daily

You mean it was normal that Bibi Fatima displeased with Caliph Abubakar and never spoken with him till she died?

I don't get it: "a Muslim must not exclude or relegate the Ahlulbayt"? What is that? Ahlulbayt are not seeking for anybody's sympathy faah. You adhere to them, your salvation is guaranteed. You adhere to other than them, then you go astray. It's your choice.

And I don't get it: "your family INCLUDE Ahlulbayt in their salawat" Don't you know that failure to include them make your salawat batil (null and void) ni?

aadoiza:

Are you insinuating that Shia are allowed to pray in sunni mosques, behind sunni imams? Subhanallah, the disinfo is real.

It is not insinuation. Mosque is for Allah, not Sunni or Shia. Besides, it is well established in Shia fiqh that Shia can pray behind Sunni Imam. I pray regularly behind Sunnis whenever I'm around in Naija. I pray salat al-Jumu'ah with the Sunnis.

AlBaqir:


Sometimes you present yourself as if you believe in a part of the Quran and silently reject other part.

Whether you like it or not, Allah Himself has laid curse upon pseudo-Sahabah in His glorious book. Whether you like it or not, authentic ahadith exist that Prophet himself laid curse upon pseudo-Sahabah. Whether you like it or not, evidences abound that some sahabah cursed other sahabah.

ee what you said?. You didnt say Allah and His messanger ordered us to curse fellow muslims. It is only the right of Allah and His messenger...not us.

So why shying away from reality as if cursing fake, munafiqun sahabah is a big deal?

'fake', 'munafiq' are hidden traits. We have not been made to see through people's heart.

Yet, upon all these overwhelming evidences, just like the salafi, you are equally playing that sympathetic card, "Shia are cursing the Sahabah".

I think i have stated my reason. If Shi'a simply remain silent(no rodiyallahu) after the mention of a sahabi they dislike is better than cursing him.

And cursing is not an automatic magnet. If A is cursed or prayed for and did not deserved it, none of it will reach him. Imam Ali was cursed on the pulpit of Banu Umayah for more than 80 years. Imam Ali (alayhi salam) was depicted as shaytan. So if a Shia cursed a sahabi that Allah and His messenger cursed, how's that a big deal?

Why focus is only on sahaba?. Allah and His messanger also cursed the one who collects riba, the one who pays riba and the two witnesses. So let's say a shia is much concerned about cursing a sahabi he is not comfortable with but he himself is dealing in riba transaction, dont you think the curse comes right back at him?. And why not simply curse those who take riba too in our contemporary world since Allah's curse is upon them too?. See, i guess what i have been trying to tell you is that if we all should start cursing by citing daleel, then we built self-destructive society for ourselves. Cursing someone is only right of Allah.

Upon all these, All the Shia maraji declared cursing ANY of the Sahabah or wife of the Prophet as HARAM. This was unanimous fatwa of Shia Ulama. Yet, this is not appreciated, Shia continues to be maligned as "Sahabah cursers". Please face reality: if our ulama declared cursing pseudo- Sahabah as wajib, salafi cannot do more than what they are doing against Shia: maligning them and suicide bombing them.

So why not simply abide by ruling of shia ulama instead of saying there are evidences for cursing some sahaba?. Make no mistake,i am aware shia only curse some sahaba not all of them. I think this is your concern.

The more Shia is trying hard for Muslim unity, the more Shia is being treated as kuffar by the uninformed Sunni.

Thats why both sides have more to do. I am never calling shia kufar. That makes no sense.

Only Allah knows tomorrow not you. It is not ours to peep into, "what if he dies the next day". Ours is to see the truth and accept the truth. Period. Allegiance to he whom Allah and His Messenger appointed is the confirmation of one's Iman.

But another kalifa would come second anyway even if S. Ali(ra) came first. Even if Ali(ra) ruled for 20yrs. I believe that Ali(ra) became 4th caliph was even better.

Making a parallel analogy between Prophet's declaration of Imam Ali as his immediate successor and Sheik Adam's sons tussle for their baba's successorship is far too low of a submission.

We are talking of what will confirm one's belief or Mar it. Here is my brother talking of Agege caliphate

No be so?. Beliefs of muslims are the same with some slight differences in practicality. My analogy was based on succession in itself. The idea of succession is the same everywhere in the muslim community. Thats why I cited baba lagege(ra) and sheikh Nasirdeen Kabara(ra)

You mean it was normal that Bibi Fatima displeased with Caliph Abubakar and never spoken with him till she died?

Is there anything we can do about a deed already done over 1400 years ago now?. It was sad but we cant help. One thing that is clear to me is that I will not be questioned about them.

I don't get it: "a Muslim must not exclude or relegate the Ahlulbayt"? What is that? Ahlulbayt are not seeking for anybody's sympathy faah. You adhere to them, your salvation is guaranteed. You adhere to other than them, then you go astray. It's your choice.

perhaps you misunderstood this?

And I don't get it: "your family INCLUDE Ahlulbayt in their salawat" Don't you know that failure to include them make your salawat batil (null and void) ni?

perhaps you misunderstood this too?. I meant salawat we did at home back then always included ahlulbayt.

This is the salawa


allahumma salli ala sayyidina muhammad wa ala ali wa sahabiy wa ahlulbayt wa ala kulli min ajirin warajai


We said this salawa 1000/day in addition to solati Fatihi and Ibrahimiyah. In other word, we recognize AhlulBayt to the core.

AlBaqir:


It is not insinuation. Mosque is for Allah, not Sunni or Shia. Besides, it is well established in Shia fiqh that Shia can pray behind Sunni Imam. I pray regularly behind Sunnis whenever I'm around in Naija. I pray salat al-Jumu'ah with the Sunnis.

This is good. Now I see the Shia are not as hate-driven as they are made to look.

Empiree:
ee what you said?. You didnt say Allah and His messanger ordered us to curse fellow muslims. It is only the right of Allah and His messenger...not us.

Must Allah ordered you to do a good act before you do it? Where is it written that cursing the cursed is Allah's right alone?

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 159 - 161:

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too)

Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth), these it is to whom I turn (mercifully); and I am the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all."

Empiree:

'fake', 'munafiq' are hidden traits. We have not been made to see through people's heart.

What unlock that "hidden traits" of munafiqun is Ali ibn Abi Talib. Munafiqun cannot stand his presence, mentioning of his name, mentioning of his virtues etc.

Anyone who has an atom size hate of Ali in his heart or action is a munafiq. Abdullah ibn Mas'ud said, "We used to recognize the munafiqun by their hate for Ali ibn Abi Talib."

Both Imam Muslim and Imam Tirmidhi document:

# Narrated 'Ali:

"The Prophet (s) - the Unlettered Prophet - exhorted me (saying): 'None loves you except a believer and none hates you except a hypocrite.'"


Grade : Sahih (Darussalam) 

English reference  : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3736
Arabic reference  : Book 49, Hadith 4101
www.sunnah.com/tirmidhi/49


# Imam Abu Ya'la documents:

Narrated Abu ‘Abd Allah al-Jadali:

Umm Salamah said, “Why do you curse the Messenger of Allah upon the PULPITS?” I said, “How is that possible?” She said, “Don’t you curse ‘Ali and WHOSOEVER loves him? I testify that the Messenger of Allāh loved him

Source: Abu Ya’la Ahmad b. ‘Ali al-Tamimi al-Mawsuli, Musnad (Damascus: Dar al-Mamun li al-Turath; 1st edition, 1404 H) [annotator: Husayn Salim Asad], vol. 12, p. 444, # 7013

Empiree:

I think i have stated my reason. If Shi'a simply remain silent(no rodiyallahu) after the mention of a sahabi they dislike is better than cursing him.

Stop saying "Shia" in a general statement. A yes or no question: can you curse those Allah and His Messenger cursed?

Do you know Allah and His Messenger laid curse upon certain sahabah? Can you follow Allah and His Messenger in that act?

If you cannot (which is dislike to what Allah and His Messenger did), then why talking against those that chose to follow Allah and His Messenger?

Shia do not shy away from fact that a fanatical fraction among them usually curse certain sahabah that fall into their bad record. But majority of Shia do not engage in this act and leading Shia maraji have declared this silly act as Haram since it create more tension and chaos and disunity within the Muslim ummah. It is the Sunni that should stop playing sympathy card as if cursing sahabah is a bid'ah act and ticket to hell fire.

Not cursing the evil among the Sahabah is just courtesy. Some even deserved cursing every minute with ìwo.

Empiree:

Why focus is only on sahaba?. Allah and His messanger also cursed the one who collects riba, the one who pays riba and the two witnesses. So let's say a shia is much concerned about cursing a sahabi he is not comfortable with but he himself is dealing in riba transaction, dont you think the curse comes right back at him?. And why not simply curse those who take riba too in our contemporary world since Allah's curse is upon them too?. See, i guess what i have been trying to tell you is that if we all should start cursing by citing daleel, then we built self-destructive society for ourselves. Cursing someone is only right of Allah.

So can you follow Allah and His Messenger by cursing those who collect riba? The fact is that whether you curse the cursed or not, Allah and His Messenger's curse upon them is automatic. Cursing of a believer upon the cursed is just formality and a way of doing al-bara'a.

And I tell you with confidence that a true believer will not engage in riba act; therefore, it is yet another trait of munafiqun is collection of riba. And there are example of certain sahabah who collect riba and even did worse.

Empiree:

So why not simply abide by ruling of shia ulama instead of saying there are evidences for cursing some sahaba?. Make no mistake,i am aware shia only curse some sahaba not all of them. I think this is your concern.

Oh, you think my submissions are contradictory? Establishing the sunnatic nature of cursing and at the same time submitting our maraji's fatwa of not to curse any sahabah.

It is you that continuously negating the sunnah of cursing hence my drive to give you clear fact that cursing the cursed is an established sunnah of Islam.

Empiree:

Thats why both sides have more to do. I am never calling shia kufar. That makes no sense.

Now you can easily separate yourself but can easily generalized millions of people as "sahabah curser". Can you preach it to the Sunni/Salafi that cursing or hating or disliking sahabah does not in anyway make a Muslim a kafir?

Your hypocrisy knows no bound. Majority of sahabah hated, cursed and fought Ali ibn Abi Talib in particular and Ahlulbayt in general. You find excuses for them despite clearest ahadith mentioned above that only the munafiqun hate and curse Ali. On the other hand, it is okay to label Shia as sahabah curser and even declared them kuffar. Ilé lati k'eso rode.

"O you who believe, stand for justice ...." Quran.

Empiree:

But another kalifa would come second anyway even if S. Ali(ra) came first. Even if Ali(ra) ruled for 20yrs. I believe that Ali(ra) became 4th caliph was even better.

The more you stylishly run away from the main fact by bringing petty issues, the more I will keep on dragging you back on it.

Ali ibn Abi Talib was Allah and His Messenger's appointed Caliph over all Muslims. Pledging allegiance to him is submission to the will of Allah and His Messenger. Not recognizing and not pledging allegiance to him is dying the death of jahiliyyah.
What is the fate of those that were found wanting during and after (till date) of demise of Ali?

Empiree:

No be so?. Beliefs of muslims are the same with some slight differences in practicality. My analogy was based on succession in itself. The idea of succession is the same everywhere in the muslim community. Thats why I cited baba lagege(ra) and sheikh Nasirdeen Kabara(ra)

Again comparing death and sleep is a big problem. Please don't mention it again. It is disrespectful.

Empiree:

Is there anything we can do about a deed already done over 1400 years ago now?. It was sad but we cant help. One thing that is clear to me is that I will not be questioned about them.

You will bro. You will be questioned about the Wilayat, the Thaqalayn, the Khalifatayn. It squarely rest upon the validity of your faith and other things you do. "....whoever adhere to them will not go astray..."

Only he who will escape it is he who heard not or knows nothing about it.

Empiree:

perhaps you misunderstood this too?. I meant salawat we did at home back then always included ahlulbayt.

This is the salawa


allahumma salli ala sayyidina muhammad wa ala ali wa sahabiy wa ahlulbayt wa ala kulli min ajirin warajai


We said this salawa 1000/day in addition to solati Fatihi and Ibrahimiyah. In other word, we recognize AhlulBayt to the core.

I did not misunderstood anything. It is you I'm urging to understand things in their right perspective. To say "we include the Ahlulbayt in our salawat" is an insult to them except you do not know.

NB: Including sahabah in salawat is a new invention, and to meant all of them (without exception) in salawat is a double invention and to place them before the Ahlulbayt in salawat is the peak of that invention.

Had your salawat is rightly defined and well arranged, I would have use "good deed" instead of "invention".

AlBaqir:


Must Allah ordered you to do a good act before you do it? Where is it written that cursing the cursed is Allah's right alone?

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 159 - 161:

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too)

Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth), these it is to whom I turn (mercifully); and I am the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all."

Perhaps this refers to kufar.

Stop saying "Shia" in a general statement. A yes or no question: can you curse those Allah and His Messenger cursed?

I will only curse oppressors out of anger who openly oppress people

Do you know Allah and His Messenger laid curse upon certain sahabah? Can you follow Allah and His Messenger in that act?

If you cannot (which is dislike to what Allah and His Messenger did), then why talking against those that chose to follow Allah and His Messenger?

You want to be to disseminating curses like wildfire?. I can't curse sahaba for the fact that whatever they might have done has no direct negative impact on me. I live their affairs to Allah even if Allah had cursed them. For as long as I recognized them to be muslims, their rights as muslims are binding on me. This is contrary to people clearly mentioned by name by Allah and were cursed like firaun, shaytan, ABu Lahab etc. But no specific names of sahaba mentioned in the Quran to be cursed. You may end up cursing the wrong person.

Shia do not shy away from fact that a fanatical fraction among them usually curse certain sahabah that fall into their bad record. But majority of Shia do not engage in this act and leading Shia maraji have declared this silly act as Haram since it create more tension and chaos and disunity within the Muslim ummah.

this is my point all along you just highlighted. If Shia ulama consider it haram, then, it means cursing any sahaba for whatever reason was only right of Allah and His messanger. Contemporary Muslims should not curse any sahaba base on theological references.

Not cursing the evil among the Sahabah is just courtesy

Another point you just highlighted. My point all along.

So can you follow Allah and His Messenger by cursing those who collect riba?

Nope. I simply show evidence that Allah curses the one who takes and pay riba. I won't curse them whether they are muslim or not. But God forbid if I am forced to be in that situation and i have hard time paying back plus riba, I will curse the heck out of the lender especially mortgage lender. Again, this is borne out of anger not random curses.

And I tell you with confidence that a true believer will not engage in riba act; therefore, it is yet another trait of munafiqun is collection of riba. And there are example of certain sahabah who collect riba and even did worse.

true





Oh, you think my submissions are contradictory? Establishing the sunnatic nature of cursing and at the same time submitting our maraji's fatwa of not to curse any sahabah.

It is you that continuously negating the sunnah of cursing hence my drive to give you clear fact that cursing the cursed is an established sunnah of Islam.

I can't stop laughing the way you dash out curse, cursing, curses like distributing chin chin. Na by force to curse ni?

Now you can easily separate yourself but can easily generalized millions of people as "sahabah curser". Can you preach it to the Sunni/Salafi that cursing or hating or disliking sahabah does not in anyway make a Muslim a kafir?

told them this before. This is not evidence of kufr but may be mischieves at some point

Your hypocrisy knows no bound. Majority of sahabah hated, cursed and fought Ali ibn Abi Talib in particular and Ahlulbayt in general. You find excuses for them despite clearest ahadith mentioned above that only the munafiqun hate and curse Ali. On the other hand, it is okay to label Shia as sahabah curser and even declared them kuffar. Ilé lati k'eso rode.

Well, "Shia" in my context doesnt denote all shia. It's only means shia are known for cursing sahaba. This is a fact but doesnt mean I refer to all of them. Everyone, group, sect etc has something they are known for but doesn't mean everyone in the sect, group etc personally practices what the sect or group does.

Ali ibn Abi Talib was Allah and His Messenger's appointed Caliph over all Muslims. Pledging allegiance to him is submission to the will of Allah and His Messenger. Not recognizing and not pledging allegiance to him is dying the death of jahiliyyah.
What is the fate of those that were found wanting during and after (till date) of demise of Ali?

Allah decides their fate

You will bro. You will be questioned about the Wilayat, the Thaqalayn, the Khalifatayn. It squarely rest upon the validity of your faith and other things you do. "....whoever adhere to them will not go astray..."

this is different from what a sahabi doesnt which i am concerned about.

NB: Including sahabah in salawat is a new invention, and to meant all of them (without exception) in salawat is a double invention and to place them before the Ahlulbayt in salawat is the peak of that invention.

Does it matter?. They placed sahaba before for flow of rhythm i guess. After all, his ahlulbayt were his(saw) companions too. They get double blessings in the salawah.

Empiree:
Perhaps this refers to kufar.

So you don't know munafiqun were kuffar; 'Oh, worse than Kuffar.

In short, in one word, you cannot follow Allah and His Messenger in cursing the cursed.

"(Tell them Oh Prophet) If you love Allah, follow me...." Quran.

Empiree:

Does it matter?. They placed sahaba before for flow of rhythm i guess. After all, his ahlulbayt were his(saw) companions too. They get double blessings in the salawah.

You made mention of salat ibrahimiyyah, where is "sahabah" included in it?

Last time I checked Salat al-Fatih, there is no mention of "sahabah" in it.

The two is constant with Muhammad and Ahli Muhammad. That is the Sunnah. Plain and simple.

Even if you are to add, you gotta do it respecting the orderliness, not so called flow.

And sahabah were not his Ahlulbayt o. Ahlulbayt in salawat were just Ahlu kisa (Muhammad Rasulullah, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husein). Ahli Muhammad means righteous offsprings of Muhammad.

Sahabah were sahabah. They do not and had never fit in those two categories, lugatan ao istilahan. And to separate intended Ahlulbayt in salawat from the wives of the Prophet, some salawat will mention the wives separately saying: "...wa ala azwaji Muhammad..."

Please this is not a race, don't lump things together all in the name of "does it matter". It sends bad signal and that is how bid'at is being created when proper rules and methodology are not followed.


This is Shia dua of tuesdays as reported from Imam Ali ibn Husein Zaynul Abideen (as):

"O Allah, send blessings upon Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets


and the completion of the number of the envoys,


and upon his Household, the good, the pure,


and upon his Companions, the distinguished..."


Note the sifat come alongside "his companions" distinguishing good from bad.