mazaje:

All this talk about God being able to do all things is really funny, one thing I know no God can do is heal amputees and restore their amputated limbs. No God can make any body fly from one point to another, so enough of God can do all things mantra. . . . .God can do all things in stories writte about God by men but not in reality. . . . .

Didn't you hear that Mohammad flew from mecca to the temple in Jerusalem. What is wrong with you?

Pastor AIO:

Didn't you hear that Mohammad flew from mecca to the temple in Jerusalem. What is wrong with you?

I heard that he also made a tree cry and divided the moon into two. . . . . .

@davidylan:

davidylan:

That's absurd. I mean your claim here is based on the assumption that billions of people will act in exactly the same way, understand exactly the same way and actually be truthful when they make a claim to be christian.

Remember, you said this: the bible is crystal clear on what a christian should be.  If it is indeed crystal clear, then yes - everyone would understand and act exactly the same way, with respect to their faith.  There wouldn't be so many different sects virtually all claiming monopoly of knowledge of "God's mind" and exclusive possession of the "Holy Spirit", and there won't be davidylan labelling some as false Christians, not minding the fact that those "false Christians" actually do read the very same Bible and sincerely consider themselves to be "born-again".

For example, meat pie goes for the same price in all Mr. Biggs outlets.  It is crystal clear what the price is, and all outlets therefore sell at the same price - they act exactly the same way (with respect to the company policy).  It would be an aberration if there are disparities.  Worse still, it would be catastrophic for the Mr. Biggs enterprise, should outlets begin to label each other's meat pies as "fake".

davidylan:

See you can go on and on and on . . . human nature is as fluid as water. Only when it comes to christianity do we have atheists pontificating that billions MUST act the same way.

On what basis do you then label some as false and some as true Christians?  Having understood this yourself, then you should know that the so-called "crystal clarity" of the Bible is very relative, which puts you, or anyone else for that matter in no position to label anyone as false or true, just because their views are not in unison with yours.  In other words, everyone simply interpretes the Bible to the best of their knowledge which has absolutely nothing to do with no Holy Spirit, yourself inclusive.

^^

VERY well said Purist. . . . .

David has not answered my questions , Still.
The best he can is rain insults,

Kay 17:

David has not answered my questions , Still.
The best he can is rain insults,

How do you expect him to condescend to answering unintelligent questions? stupid nonsense does not merit an answer. But of course you can't understand that because your unintelligence is worldly and you need the absurd super intelligence of faith.

Despite maintaining that the Bible was not self-contradictory, so asked a couple questions and see if two different answers can be fashioned out of it!

Lets test the bible for contradictions:
Was the stone to the tomb, open or not?
How did judas die?
Is God's anger forever?
Does God rest?

its simple,
^^whats unintelligent about?

you need the absurd super intelligence of faith.

Its that contradictory? What intellectual effort is needed in taking up a superstition?

ok >>> so what turn has this topic taken? >>> seems to me the validity of the Bible is in question here?

@ Kay 17 >>> on the arrows making my posts looking retarded >>> >>> your opinion

I believe that the problem is summed up by the particularly anti-intellectual stance that christianity has adopted over the course of it's history. It is not a matter of christians failing thinking intelligently. But rather one of considering intelligence with contempt.

What is in the dock is intelligence itself? A valid question to ask is: What Value do christians place upon intelligence? What is it's role in understanding the universe and their place within it?

@ Pastor AIO >>> fair enough >>> i juxtapose this statement

particularly anti-intellectual stance that christianity has adopted over the course of it's history

with the infamous disagreement between Galileo Gallilei & the Church on hypothesizing the Solar System >>> we all know who eventually won

that being said >>> i, as a Christian, speak for myself  >>> in answering your questions

I place a great deal of value on intelligence & this is why i read books, journals, encyclopedias & other literature to challenge & improve my knowledge, reasoning 7 by extension my intellect

the context of your 2nd question is a bit ambiguous to me >>> nevertheless, i view my intellect as indispensable (but not penultimate) to my world view
& how i go about my life as a Christian >>> this of course can be further delved into if u think it is too facile an answer to your question

Uyi Iredia:

@ Pastor AIO >>> fair enough >>> i juxtapose this statement

with the infamous disagreement between Galileo Gallilei & the Church on hypothesizing the Solar System >>> we all know who eventually won

that being said >>> i, as a Christian, speak for myself  >>> in answering your questions

I place a great deal of value on intelligence & this is why i read books, journals, encyclopedias & other literature to challenge & improve my knowledge, reasoning 7 by extension my intellect

the context of your 2nd question is a bit ambiguous to me >>> nevertheless, i view my intellect as indispensable (but not penultimate) to my world view
& how i go about my life as a Christian >>> this of course can be further delved into if u think it is too facile an answer to your question

thank you for the galileo galilei example. For it seems that 'christians' would not only have us dispose of intelligence while reading the bible and contemplating those 'things of God', but they would also have us dispose of intelligence when investigating the natural phenomena that surround us in the physical world. Hence if the bible says that the world is 6 000 years old, then we must dismiss all of the evidence to the contrary that our intelligence tells us.

This is why it is important for me to know just where the boundaries of intelligence and it's applicability lie. According to Davidylan, can intelligence be used for anything at all? Should we use faith to build houses and bridges and create social systems (laws etc)?

nevertheless, i view my intellect as indispensable (but not penultimate) to my world view
& how i go about my life as a Christian >>> this of course can be further delved into if u think it is too facile an answer to your question

I assume that by penultimate you actually mean ultimate. If intellect is not the ultimate determiner of what we can be certain of, then what is? and what is the relationship between that other faculty and intelligence? and how far can we go with intelligence?

It is not enough to just say 'I place a great deal of value on intelligence'. A great deal of value in comparison to what? You seek to sharpen your intellect, you buy books and pay to go on expensive lectures. All these add up to a pecuniary sum. If you take the sum of all that you've spent on your education and on books and courses etc and add it up, I wonder, would you be prepared to spend the same amount of money on developing and sharpening your faith?

Would your father invest the same amount on money on your 'growing in faith'?

Let me just throw this in as a little extra. There was a theologian called Abelard in the 12th century. He lectured widely and wrote many books, one of which was called 'Sic et Non' meaning Yes and No. Here is a little quotation from Sic et Non which no other theologian of his time till this day could refute.

How, then, is the faith of any people, however false, to be refuted, though it may have arrived at such a pitch of blindness as to confess some idol to be the creator both of heaven and of earth? As, according to your own admission you cannot reason upon matters of faith, you have no right to attack others upon a matter with regard to which you think you ought yourself to be unassailed.

Pastor AIO:

If you take the sum of all that you've spent on your education and on books and courses etc and add it up, I wonder, would you be prepared to spend the same amount of money on developing and sharpening your faith?

Would your father invest the same amount on money on your 'growing in faith'?

Well faith does not cost money to build, _{except you factor the cost of tithes.}

Deep Sight:

Well faith does not cost money to build, _{except you factor the cost of tithes.}

I was being hypothetical.

Pastor AIO:

I was being hypothetical.

Sure thing Pastor, and me, I was being[size=4pt]. . .a tithe hater[/size]

@Deepsight, i am eagerly awaiting you on https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-520936.0.html.

@ Pastor AIO >>> Yes  >>> i buy books buy Christians on various topics, read devotionals & by and large peruse other religious works
                    >>> lately though i have taken a particular interest in atheism (and the gay debate) especially after watching
                    >>> Richard Dawkins proposal (on TED)

                    >>> the reason for my interest is that i find it intellectually challenging & refreshing to debate (to persuade) on my faith
                    >>> i want to (at least) display as contrary to what is tacitly stated that being theist (precisely put, a Christian) is tantamount
                    to lack of 'reason'. Debating Atheists provokes me to be articulate in speech, more informed in my beliefs & better sophisticated
                    in my arguments

                    >>> on faith >>> much justifiable >>> especially when u take into account how little we know about our universe >>> despite
                    >>> how much we know about it >>> in this light Spinoza's view that God is synonymous with nature appeals to me. >>> for
                    all the rigmaroles over reason-faith, science-religion >>> i think that:
                * one can have a reasoned & well-thought approach to one's faith (religious or irreligious)
                * one's reason has an element of faith (belief) which could be based on knowledge (what u know) or (ignorance_what u don't know
                   or u know but conveniently (for the purpose of your faith) ignore)

@ DeepSight >>> what do you think 'bout my post.

Uyi Iredia:

@ Pastor AIO >>> Yes  >>> i buy books buy Christians on various topics, read devotionals & by and large peruse other religious works
                    >>> lately though i have taken a particular interest in atheism (and the gay debate) especially after watching
                    >>> Richard Dawkins [url = http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_on_militant_atheism.html]proposal[/url] (on TED)

However I'm prepared to bet my bottom dollar that if we add up all the money you've spent on christian books, devotionals, other religious works including atheists works, it will still not amount to all the money that you have spent on developing your worldly intellect.

However, as Deepsight noted, I am prepared to admit that some people who pay tithes religiously may well have spent more money on religion than they have on their education.  Go figure!

Uyi Iredia:
for
                    all the rigmaroles over reason-faith, science-religion >>> i think that:
                * one can have a reasoned & well-thought approach to one's faith (religious or irreligious)
                * one's reason has an element of faith (belief) which could be based on knowledge (what u know) or (ignorance_what u don't know
                   or u know but conveniently (for the purpose of your faith) ignore)

For the blue point, I very much agree with you and commend you for that.

And as for the brown point I doubly commend you for that insight. Yes there is an element of faith even in Reason.

Pastor AIO:

I believe that the problem is summed up by the particularly anti-intellectual stance that christianity has adopted over the course of it's history. It is not a matter of christians failing thinking intelligently. But rather one of considering intelligence with contempt.

the above is an unfair assessment of Christianity vis a vis intellectualism. It is the intellectual rationale behind Christianity that can be credited with the "salvation by grace" belief of Christians.

It was through intellectual exploration that apostle Paul affirmed that circumcision does not make one a Christian, neither does being a jew. , , that explains why he told timothy to study and show urself approved. what did he ask timothy to study? and why?

perhaps ur notion of Christians viewing intellect with contempt is influenced by the outright rejection of non-christian notions that challenge basic xtian beliefs. but the question is that have these notions being proven to a convincing state? take the case of evolution. . is it a plausible theory? the rejection of evolution is not influenced by faith but by rationalism and does not connote a contempt for intelligence.

Christians on an individual basis have the prerogative to think intelligently or otherwise. but in Christianity intelligence (from ur submissions) is supposed to be an outright rejection of the christian "dogmas" . . . . when the basic xtain beliefs are rejected, then one stops being a xtian.

What is in the dock is intelligence itself? A valid question to ask is: What Value do christians place upon intelligence? What is it's role in understanding the universe and their place within it?

how do u explain xtians dependence on God? do they not consider God to be intelligent and potent enough to meet their needs?
whats the problem with the xtian understanding of the universe as explained in genesis?

noetic16:

the above is an unfair assessment of Christianity vis a vis intellectualism. It is the intellectual rationale behind Christianity that can be credited with the "salvation by grace" belief of Christians.

Please can you break it down for me step by step how through intellectualism we arrive at 'salvation by grace'. What are the stages of the reasoning process from axiom through inferences to conclusion.

noetic16:


It was through intellectual exploration that apostle Paul affirmed that circumcision does not make one a Christian, neither does being a jew. , , that explains why he told timothy to study and show urself approved. what did he ask timothy to study? and why?

Where did Paul reason out that circumcision was no longer necessary? Can you point us to the chapter and verse? Could you please tell me what he told Timothy to study? Was it Logic, or Mathematics?

perhaps your notion of Christians viewing intellect with contempt is influenced by the outright rejection of non-christian notions that challenge basic xtian beliefs. but the question is that have these notions being proven to a convincing state? take the case of evolution. . is it a plausible theory? the rejection of evolution is not influenced by faith but by rationalism and does not connote a contempt for intelligence.

Darwinian Evolution is one theory (and in my personal opinion not a very good theory). But that is not the point. My notion of christian contempt for the intellect has nothing to do with their rejection of non-christian notions. Every group rejects ideas that contradict their basis.
As I said previously, my notion comes from St. Paul's letter to the corinthians and from the writings of the early church fathers. Most specifically Tertullian. Please go back and read that post again.

Christians on an individual basis have the prerogative to think intelligently or otherwise. but in Christianity intelligence (from your submissions) is supposed to be an outright rejection of the christian "dogmas" . . . . when the basic xtain beliefs are rejected, then one stops being a xtian.

Anyone has the prerogative to use their brains or not. That is their business. However they should not come to a public forum and then start talking about intelligence or calling people's statements unintelligent without back up or argument when they are the one's actually exhibiting the most crass and abject dumbassery. Slinging mud and hurling abuse where people are trying to engage with one another intellectually. There can't be a more obvious contempt for the intellect than that, IMHO.
oh . . . and please do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that intelligence is an outright rejection of christian 'dogmas'. That is not my definition of intelligence, thank you very much.

whats the problem with the xtian understanding of the universe as explained in genesis?

I'll discuss this matter for you if you could please first have a go at answering the simple English comprehension test that I made for Davidylan. I'll post it here again, thank you.



Charlotte gently breathed unto her cup of tea and then left it to the table while she went into the kitchen to do the dishes. After doing the dishes she returned to find her cup of tea a lot cooler and quite ready to drink. She picked up her newspaper and slowly read through the first page intermittently lifting the cup of tea to her lips to take a sip.

Question 1) Where did Charlotte drink her cup of Tea?
ans a) in the kitchen or b) not in the kitchen.

Question 2) Why did Charlotte breathe into her cup of tea?
ans a) to cool it down or b) to give it spiritual power.

Question 3) When did Charlotte drink her tea?

ans a) before doing the dishes or b) after doing the dishes

Please Davidylan can you tell me if the skills one is required to develop in order to answer these questions properly can be used in understanding the bible?

. . . Aloora, the pathetic e-coward is AWOL.

Pastor AIO:

What I'll need from you is
1) a specific indication as to what part is nonsense and how it is nonsense.

2) a description of human wisdom, and how it works, in comparison with Godly wisdom and how that works.

3) Is Godly wisdom to be equated with Faith?

4) Is intelligence, such as we are taught in school and by our parents, to be used at all in understanding the bible? For example when I was in school I studied English comprehension where we were given a short text to read and then we were asked to answer certain questions about the text.
Consider this text:

Charlotte gently breathed unto her cup of tea and then left it to the table while she went into the kitchen to do the dishes. After doing the dishes she returned to find her cup of tea a lot cooler and quite ready to drink. She picked up her newspaper and slowly read through the first page intermittently lifting the cup of tea to her lips to take a sip.

Question 1) Where did Charlotte drink her cup of Tea?
ans a) in the kitchen or b) not in the kitchen.

Question 2) Why did Charlotte breathe into her cup of tea?
ans a) to cool it down or b) to give it spiritual power.

Question 3) When did Charlotte drink her tea?

ans a) before doing the dishes or b) after doing the dishes

Please Davidylan can you tell me if the skills one is required to develop in order to answer these questions properly can be used in understanding the bible?

@Pastor AIO: What does it mean to understand the Bible? In what sense do you mean "understand"?

If it is in the sense of the Charlotte and her cup of tea essay above, then the answer is yes, becuase this is just another piece of literature as well.

Cheers.

^^^ His point is that all the mumbo jumbo about needing "the holy ghost" inorder to read the bible is simply escapist, as David has tried to do above.

Plain logic and reason can infer certain things written therein quite clearly.

Deep Sight:

^^^ His point is that all the mumbo jumbo about needing "the holy ghost" inorder to read the bible is simply escapist, as David has tried to do above.

Plain logic and reason can infer certain things written therein quite clearly.

See your words as I have emboldened them above, sir. Not everything in the Bible is plain letter. The very same applies to all religious text.

And this was why I asked our eminent Pastor AIO, what does it mean to understand the Bible?

Aite, got that.

Pastor AIO:

Please can you break it down for me step by step how through intellectualism we arrive at 'salvation by grace'. What are the stages of the reasoning process from axiom through inferences to conclusion.

1. Abraham is refered to as the father of faith and the friend of God. abraham is the bearer of God's covenant with man as revealed by the bible.

2. this covenant was believed to have been symbolised with circumcision.

3. through intellectual exploration, Paul reveals that abraham received the covenant before circumcision and as such the covenant is not a product of the promise. implying that abraham received the promise by grace. So also does salvation come by grace.

Where did Paul reason out that circumcision was no longer necessary? Can you point us to the chapter and verse? Could you please tell me what he told Timothy to study? Was it Logic, or Mathematics?

read acts 15 . . .juxtapose it with the reason why Paul circumcised timothy in acts 16. . .you come to a conclusion.
Timothy was circumcised so that he might gain aceptance with the church he was going to lead. . .not so that he might be saved. It was established in acts 15 that circumcison was not a product of salvation.

Darwinian Evolution is one theory (and in my personal opinion not a very good theory). But that is not the point. My notion of christian contempt for the intellect has nothing to do with their rejection of non-christian notions. Every group rejects ideas that contradict their basis.
As I said previously, my notion comes from St. Paul's letter to the corinthians and from the writings of the early church fathers. Most specifically Tertullian. Please go back and read that post again.

and how exactly did Paul's writings ridicule the need for intellect?

I'll discuss this matter for you if you could please first have a go at answering the simple English comprehension test that I made for Davidylan. I'll post it here again, thank you.



Charlotte gently breathed unto her cup of tea and then left it to the table while she went into the kitchen to do the dishes. After doing the dishes she returned to find her cup of tea a lot cooler and quite ready to drink. She picked up her newspaper and slowly read through the first page intermittently lifting the cup of tea to her lips to take a sip.

Question 1) Where did Charlotte drink her cup of Tea?
ans a) in the kitchen or b) not in the kitchen.

Question 2) Why did Charlotte breathe into her cup of tea?
ans a) to cool it down or b) to give it spiritual power.

Question 3) When did Charlotte drink her tea?

ans a) before doing the dishes or b) after doing the dishes

Please Davidylan can you tell me if the skills one is required to develop in order to answer these questions properly can be used in understanding the bible?

I will be back to answer ur question.

Sir you don't need to undertake a pilgrimage to answer that question.

The answer to that question can only be found in ancient scrolls. Give the guy time to come back from his digging expedition.

^^^ Or maybe special understanding and the unction from the Holy Ghost is required.

^^^An aiki bawa garinsu. . . .meaning would you ever expect a slave that has been sent to his home town on an errand to come back? Nah

Rhino.3dm:

^^^An aiki bawa garinsu. . . .meaning would you ever expect a slave that has been sent to his home town on an errand to come back? Nah

Mazaaaaa. . . .Yane? Ka share ni ko?. . . . .