LordReed:


The state of my mind is not something you can know, you do you bit, that's the best you can do.

I know you bro, and I've read your thread. your intention is clearly understood.

Shepherd00:

But you are already exercising yours. Here you are an atheist. Did your parents choose it for you? Oh, you have blasphemed the Lord and His Word here in this forum, but no one forced you or restrained you. Isn't that exercising your Free Will?

You can also choose to celebrate God, but this cannot happen without being liberated first.



Did you read what you typed? Before he didn't have a choice to depart from Sin.

He requires liberation before he can be sin free, because, he belonged to another Master (Sin) in the past. That Master (Sin and satan) didn't give him any room to choose another, but he is liberated from them, and left to choose either to return to his old master or stay with the new.

Why is that so hard to grasp?

It hard to grasp because you seem to be outlining a one thing and at same time saying the thing doesn't exist.

In one part I am free and can do as I please then in another part I am a slave and I need liberation.

You say I am exercising free will then you say I am a slave to sin.

I am not understanding how I am a slave to sin and still have free will. Will my slavery to sin not compel me to commit sin? And in addition if you are liberated from sin how are you still committing sin? Is it that this liberation is not real and is just a metaphor for something else or it is a real liberation that you have not yet experienced?

malvisguy212:
I know you bro, and I've read your thread. your intention is clearly understood.

You don't know my intention, you can guess though but if you guess wrong then you'll act wrong.

malvisguy212:
you are a slave to sin because of the DECISIONS you made, did God made the decision for you ? that why in my first post , I say ”? freewill Is not the liberty to do whatever one wishes, with no accountability attached.“Free will” is simply the ability to choose between options.To make decisions between “right” and “wrong.”To choose to "do,” or “not do.”

It doesn't matter how I became a slave, a slave a slave. That implies I have no power to remove myself from that position or else I wouldn't still be a slave does it not?

LordReed:


It doesn't matter how I became a slave, a slave a slave. That implies I have no power to remove myself from that position or else I wouldn't still be a slave does it not?

but in the context of freewill and the Bible, you have the choice to remove yourself . I mean your claimed here say otherwise to reality.

LordReed:

You asked;

' Is a non Christian free to make choices to sin or not sin?
And I answered;
To live a sinless life? Try it and see.
The non-Christian has the knowledge that stealing is wrong, he wishes he can restrain himself from it, but cannot, becos a power is in him making sure he steals. He gave himself to that power, that is a Choice which comes with Free Will.

[quote author=LordReed post=79070809]
I interpreted that to mean I would be unable to live such a life, how was I wrong?

But you are told what to do in other for you not to live that life. Why not take it?

You are wrong becos when you are told what to do, you shunned it.

LordReed:

And the question still remains unresolved if a person is a slave to sin then he is not free is he?

Only, this kind of slavery he is the one holding the key.

If he decides to open the door, he walks free or stay bound.

LordReed:

It does matter how he became a slave, a slave is a slave.

No, in this case a slave is not always a slave.

If they was no propitiation/justification, then a slave wld ve always been a slave.

LordReed:


No that is not the question. The question remains am I a slave to sin to which your bible says yes I am so then if i am a slave how do i have free will?

You are a slave as long as YOU CHOOSE TO REMAIN THERE.

The key has been handed over to you.

malvisguy212:
but in the context of freewill and the Bible, you have the choice to remove yourself . I mean your claimed here say otherwise to reality.

So I don't need the liberation from the god to remove myself?

Shepherd00:

You are a slave to key as long as YOU CHOOSE TO REMAIN THERE.

The key has been handed over to you.

The key is what?

Shepherd00:
But you are told what to do in other for you not to live that life. Why not take it?

You are wrong becos when you are told what to do, you shunned it.

I shunned what? The challenge to try to live a sinless life?

Shepherd00:
Only, this kind of slavery he is the one holding the key.

If he decides to open the door, he walks free or stay bound.

So I don't need the god? I can do it by myself?

Shepherd00:
No, in this case a slave is not always a slave.

If they was no propitiation/justification, then a slave wld ve always been a slave.

The question is not one of duration but of ability. Is a slave able to free himself? If he can then what does he need with an external agency?

LordReed:

So I don't need the liberation from the god to remove myself?

yes.

LordReed:

It hard to grasp because you seem to be outlining a one thing and at same time saying the thing doesn't exist.

You are failing to acknowledge that they are two Camps here with varied approaches to things.

The first Camp is YHWH's: He created every one with Perception which enables them to react to their environment. He gave everyone volition and the Will Power to Will their actions.

Then the Camp of the Fallen: In this Camp, altho, one has his/her Perceptions and Volition's, their actions are controlled.

Thus, Choosing which Camp to belong determines what happens further. Whether or not you choose God, you'd still have your Perceptions and Volition.(Which is what makes you different from an animal)

Although, you are in the dark, He is point the beam of light on you saying, "follow me and come out". It's your choice to say 'Why did you allow me choose sin in the first place', or come out of it

LordReed:

In one part I am free and can do as I please then in another part I am a slave and I need liberation.
[quote author=LordReed post=79071181]
You say I am exercising free will then you say I am a slave to sin.

Yes. You use your Free Will to put yourself into slavery.

Like I said, whether or not you choose God, you still have perception and Volition.

You dey put food for your nose? Shey you know the difference between your nose and your mouth?

LordReed:

I am not understanding how I am a slave to sin and still have free will. Will my slavery to sin not compel me to commit sin?

You are a slave to sin becos, although you have the perception and Volition to know that where you are wreaks with the stench of rot, and can get up and walk away, you choose to remain there yet complain of the stench.

Have you heard of 'Mental slavery?'

Na you kip ya sef dia.

LordReed:

And in addition if you are liberated from sin how are you still committing sin?

That's why I asked you if while you were a baby you pooed on yourself.

No baby is born and gets up and begin to run. The same with being born in the Spirit. We keep slipping Until we mature. Mature Christians know the consequences of sin and sins not. (deliberately)

LordReed:

Is it that this liberation is not real and is just a metaphor for something else or it is a real liberation that you have not yet experienced?

How did you know that Christians still sin after liberation? I mean mature Christians, not baby Christians.

If we continue sinning, then there wouldn't be persecution against us, have you thought of that?

Do you know that what engenders persecution is our shunning the norm?

malvisguy212:
yes.

Well that's good to know.

malvisguy212:
you are a slave to sin because of the DECISIONS you made, did God made the decision for you ? that why in my first post , I say ”? freewill Is not the liberty to do whatever one wishes, with no accountability attached.“Free will” is simply the ability to choose between options.To make decisions between “right” and “wrong.”To choose to "do,” or “not do.”

God has already made decisions for everyone if he's all-knowing and has the book of destiny.

LordReed:

I shunned what? The challenge to try to live a sinless life?

That is the thing. You don't 'try', you just accept it.

The non-Christians 'try' to live a sinless life. You can't. Immediately you chose the other Camp, you forfeited your rights to live for God.

LordReed:

So I don't need the god? I can do it by myself?

What do you mean by 'the god?'

LordReed:

The question is not one of duration but of ability. Is a slave able to free himself? If he can then what does he need with an external agency?

The slave can only free himself to the extend that he makes use of his perception and Volition.

If you use your Perception to turn to God, He leads you out of where you choose to keep yourself, but if not, you remain there as you are looking for absolution from yourself.

tintingz:
God has already made decisions for everyone if he's all-knowing and has the book of destiny.

Yeah? He also made the decision that you shd turn against Him and fight His ways?

tintingz:
God has already made decisions for everyone if he's all-knowing and has the book of destiny.

You mean God decided that you'd be a thief? Yet he says Thou shall not steal?

See reasoning.

LordReed:


Well that's good to know.

am Glad. now you see, God will is for everyone to believed, but it is not that if God will everyone to believed then it's impossible not to believed,in Matthew 23:32 Jesus was willing for Jerusalem to believed but they are not willing .

Shepherd00:

You are failing to acknowledge that they are two Camps here with varied approaches to things.

The first Camp is YHWH's: He created every one with Perception which enables them to react to their environment. He gave everyone volition and the Will Power to Will their actions.

Then the Camp of the Fallen: In this Camp, altho, one has his/her Perceptions and Volition's, their actions are controlled.

Thus, Choosing which Camp to belong determines what happens further. Whether or not you choose God, you'd still have your Perceptions and Volition.(Which is what makes you different from an animal)

Although, you are in the dark, He is point the beam of light on you saying, "follow me and come out". It's your choice to say 'Why did you allow me choose sin in the first place', or come out of it

Yes. You use your Free Will to put yourself into slavery.

Like I said, whether or not you choose God, you still have perception and Volition.

You dey put food for your nose? Shey you know the difference between your nose and your mouth?

You are a slave to sin becos, although you have the perception and Volition to know that where you are wreaks with the stench of rot, and can get up and walk away, you choose to remain there yet complain of the stench.

Have you heard of 'Mental slavery?'

Na you kip ya sef dia.

Ok lemme see if I understand you correctly. I am free to choose any thing I want, I am choosing sin only because I like sin. If I recognise sin as sin then I wouldn't choose it. Am I right so far?

Now the god part is where I am lost again. Why did it require the sacrifice of Jesus to liberate me if I could just liberate myself?

That's why I asked you if while you were a baby you pooed on yourself.

No baby is born and gets up and begin to run. The same with being born in the Spirit. We keep slipping Until we mature. Mature Christians know the consequences of sin and sins not. (deliberately)

How did you know that Christians still sin after liberation? I mean mature Christians, not baby Christians.

If we continue sinning, then there wouldn't be persecution against us, have you thought of that?

Do you know that what engenders persecution is our shunning the norm?

How many mature Christians who do not sin do you know? Are you one of them?

Persecuted? By whom and for what reason? I do not know of any Christian being persecuted because they do not want to sin. I assume by persecution you mean actual harm not perceived ones.

Shepherd00:


That is the thing. You don't 'try', you just accept it.

The non-Christians 'try' to live a sinless life. You can't. Immediately you chose the other Camp, you forfeited your rights to live for God.


What do you mean by 'the god?'


The slave can only free himself to the extend that he makes use of his perception and Volition.

If you use your Perception to turn to God, He leads you out of where you choose to keep yourself, but if not, you remain there as you are looking for absolution from yourself.

"The god" is the Christian god.

And if I just want to live a good life without choosing the god?

LordReed:


"The god" is the Christian god.

And if I just want to live a good life without choosing the god?

You have already done so Volitionally. That is the Free Will we've been talking about here.

Shepherd00:

Yeah? He also made the decision that you shd turn against Him and fight His ways?

Shepherd00:

You mean God decided that you'd be a thief? Yet he says Thou shall not steal?

See reasoning.

I don't believe in God but let me play along.

Before I was created did God knows my end and in details?

How many mature Christians who do not sin do you know? Are you one of them?

Persecuted? By whom andk for what reason? I do not know of any Christian being persecuted because they do not want to sin. I assume by persecution you mean actual harm not perceived ones.[/quote]

LordReed t=79073603:

Ok lemme see if I understand you correctly. I am free to choose any thing I want, I am choosing sin only because I like sin. If I recognise sin as sin then I wouldn't choose it. Am I right so far?

Yes.

LordReed t=79073603:

Now the god part is where I am lost again. Why did it require the sacrifice of Jesus to liberate me if I could just liberate myself?

You have not been following. I told you that there are two Camps. The one you are right now, and the Camp of Jehovah.

The Fall flung you into the Camp you are right now(altho) with your Perception and Volition intact, your actions are controlled, and cannot help yourself. But, YHWH wants to help you.

But, YHWH is interested in you. Take up the rope is throwing to you and He will pull you out.

The Free Will is, you either take the rope or you remain there.

Listen , in spiritual and divine matters, the mind,
heart, and will of unreborn human beings are entirely unable to under

Shepherd00:






How many mature Christians who do not sin do you know? Are you one of them?

Persecuted? By whom andk for what reason? I do not know of any Christian being persecuted because they do not want to sin. I assume by persecution you mean actual harm not perceived ones.


Ok lemme see if I understand you correctly. I am free to choose any thing I want, I am choosing sin only because I like sin. If I recognise sin as sin then I wouldn't choose it. Am I right so far?

Yes.

Now the god part is where I am lost again. Why did it require the sacrifice of Jesus to liberate me if I could just liberate myself?

You have not been following. I told you that there are two Camps. The one you are right now, and the Camp of Jehovah.

The Fall flung you into the Camp you are right now(altho) with your Perception and Volition intact, your actions are controlled, and cannot help yourself. But, YHWH wants to help you.

But, YHWH is interested in you. Take up the rope is throwing to you and He will pull you out.

The Free Will is, you either take the rope or you remain there.

Listen , in spiritual and divine matters, the mind,
heart, and will of unreborn human beings are entirely unable to under

Wait so free will is not about sinning but about choosing the god?

Shepherd00:

You have already done so Volitionally. That is the Free Will we've been talking about here.

I mean is it possible to live a good life without choosing the god?

LordReed:


Ok lemme see if I understand you correctly. I am free to choose any thing I want, I am choosing sin only because I like sin. If I recognise sin as sin then I wouldn't choose it. Am I right so far?

Now the god part is where I am lost again. Why did it require the sacrifice of Jesus to liberate me if I could just liberate myself?



How many mature Christians who do not sin do you know? Are you one of them?

Persecuted? By whom and for what reason? I do not know of any Christian being persecuted because they do not want to sin. I assume by persecution you mean actual harm not perceived ones.

We will have discussion only when you cross over, for, as long as you recover there, you can never understand. Don't bother.

LordReed:

I mean is it possible to live a good life without choosing the god?

I painted a picture for you earlier and I told you to try and see.
It's not just outwardly, but intentionally too. Try it.

LordReed:
Wait so free will is not about sinning but about choosing the god?

Have you Chosen Him? Did someone aid you in rejecting Him?
That is Free Will.

tintingz:


I don't believe in God but let me play along.

Before I was created did God knows my end and in details?

I know you don't believe in God, yet you want to talk abt what He can and cannot do.

First answer the questions asked you, then I will treat this.


Now that you reject and malign Him every chance you get, Did he choose that for you?

Shepherd00:

I painted a picture for you earlier and I told you to try and see.

It's not just outwardly, but intentionally too. Try it.

Ok I will.

LordReed:


Ok I will.

See? that is Free will. No one is forcing you to do it.

So long as you can perceive and have the ability to take actions you have Free Will, how you manage it is your business.

Shepherd00:

Have you Chosen Him? Did someone aid you in rejecting Him?

That is Free Will.

No I have not chosen the god and nobody aided my decision.