@ maximus 69

Then why can't you also sleep at home knowing fully well that what would you achieve or become in this world has already been JUSTIFIED AND DESTINED BY God ?

By the way why did you decide to respond to first part of my post(Qur'an 10:96-97) and neglect the other part ( those four premises of argument) ?

Abdulgaffar22:
@ maximus 69

Then why can't you also sleep at home knowing fully well that what would you become in this world has already been JUSTIFIED AND DESTINED BY God ?

That's why i left Islam for TRUE Christianity!

The Bible never supported the teaching of predestination, where God has destined those that will go to heaven and those that will be tormented, otherwise preaching is unwarranted!
We're to preach to people and help them see reasons,few people wants to worship God in the right sense while most people don't bloody care.
So our job as preachers and teachers is to find such ones, present the correct THEORY about God,teach them the PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS of the theory so that they can start enjoying the BENEFITS even while they're alive!

See how you are making MOCKERY of God by saying that there is no PREDESTINATION ! If there is no predestination, then God would be IGNORANT about what is going to happen in the future. Yet one of the great attributes of God is OMNISCIENCE .That is to say God is All-knowing. Have you now see your ignorance about the concept of God ?
Oh! I can now see why you left the light for darkness

Abdulgaffar22:
See how you are making MOCKERY of God by saying that there is no PREDESTINATION ! If there is no predestination, then God would be IGNORANT about the future. Yet one of the great attributes of God is OMNISCIENCE .That is to say God is All-knowing. Have you now see your ignorance about the concept of God ?
Oh! I can now see why you left the light for darkness

You should have asked me first if my own God is omniscient or not!

Because my own God is NOT omniscient o.
So our God differs!

So your God is different from God of Bible for the God of Bible says as follows;

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please (Isaiah 46:10). If God make THE END TO BE KNOWN FROM THE BEGINNING, then is this not predestination?

Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and He KNOWS EVERYTHING (1st John 3:20). If according to this verse, God knows everything, then is God not omniscient ?

Now that you have seen how Bible also supported the teaching of predestination like Qur'an, would you now leave Christianity for atheism ? Honestly you are confused!

Abdulgaffar22:
So your God is different from God of Bible for the God of Bible says as follows;
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please (Isaiah 46:10). If God make the end to be known from beginning, then is this not predestination?
Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and He KNOWS EVERYTHING (1st John 3:20). If according to this verse, God knows everything, then is God not omniscient ?

Abdulgaffar! Abdulgaffar!! Abdulgaffar!!!

You won't kill me with your jokes.
So instead of asking what the text means, you decided to interpret it your own way and concluded it's saying exactly what you had in mind!

Well let me correct you there.

The Bible made it clear that God has ONLY good plans and that means he doesn't think of evil. Genesis 18:25 compared to Job 34:10
So whenever you're reading the Bible, try to ask for the opinion of others regarding the quotation before you summed it up in your own interpretation and expect everyone to follow you.

God plans only good things, the reason why he said he knows the end from the beginning is there in the scripture you yourself quoted!

@Isaiah 46:10, if you only focus your mind on the first part of the quoted scripture you will not understand the message. But try to meditate on the concluding part that says ' I say 'my decision will stand, and i will do whatever i please'
He is the Almighty so there's NOTHING that can stop his good plans!

He created us as intelligent creatures just like angels are also intelligent spirit being and since we have freewill most of us tends to become selfish in our reasonings and that's what has caused him grief! Genesis 6:5-6

Abdulgaffar22:
Now that you have seen how Bible also supported the teaching of predestination like Qur'an, would you now leave Christianity for atheism ? Honestly you are confused!

Satan has set up false theories to discredit God, and if you're not a true Christian you'll be led astray with those fallacies.
They're the various OMNIs used in defining God!

Omniscient is to say God knows everything {including all the evil intentions of man's heart} therefore whatever evil anyone does is part of God's plan. If that's true, then there's no other person to blame for the evil if not the ONE WHO PLANNED IT!

Omnipotent implies that God can do anything {including good and bad} therefore whatever happens, he is responsible for it whether good or bad!

Omnipresence implies that God is everywhere {even where evil acts are carried out} therefore he is a witness to whatever people do!

All these are FALSE THEORIES because there's no reasonable way to PRACTICALLY APPLY any of them and so they're of no BENEFITS!

That's why the world is full of hatred and injustice, and with all the religious theories all of you have stored in your brains it's impossible for your religions to unite people as one family. And cheap weapons like RACISM and POLITICS keep tearing your religious groups apart!

Listen and get the sense of these fallacies as i pick each of them and treat as a topic!
"Omniscient"

This theory was fabricated to make people believe that God prearranged everything that's happening on the surface of the earth. Those who adhere to this false theory will always do evil things because they're convinced that it has all been predestined to happen by God. So they're not to blame for whatever they does!

"Omnipotent"

This theory teaches that God can do anything even bad worse or worst things, so who is to blame now if his earthly creatures also act wickedly? Most people concludes in their hearts that whatever evil they're doing is incomparable to the height of evil that God himself has done, so to them they'll do both good and bad depending on how situations warrants after all God who has all the powers also engages in evil deeds therefore they can't live without committing evil!

"Omnipresence"

This theory teaches that God is everywhere and so he is seeing everyone and everything we all do. Therefore if God sees everything that we're doing and will not stop us from doing it, then that means he's indifferent towards our thoughts, words and actions!

So after centuries that people have been fed with these false theories, and the numbers of pagans who teaches otherwise have been reduced, majority amongst us are now reasoning thoroughly over the concept, that's why many are now turning to ATHEISM the idea that God doesn't exist at all!
Of course Satan have achieved his goals as many stupid ideas like Gays, Lesbians, Bestialists, Cross dressers and others are now welcomed developments within the human society!

Abdulgaffar22:

1. The two concepts are not comparable because on the issue of paying the bail for the offenders, NO DIRECT PHYSICAL PAIN OR SPIRITUAL PAIN ( CURSE; Deut 21:23) is inflicted on the philanthropist who decided to pay the bail for the offenders.


2. But God has been forgiving His people BEFORE the Cross and WITHOUT any slightest hint of the Cross

3. But Bible make it clear that sin of the FINITE Adam cannot be transferred upon his Children (Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:18-19). So your argument crumbles from beginning.
.......

You ATTEMPT to use logical reasoning to approach the topics you come up with. Unfortunately, just stating "Premise 1", "Premise 2", etc DOES NOT NECESSARILY make your arguments logical.

For example, if I say: Premise 1 - Abdulgaffar quotes from the Old Testament; Premise 2 - Abdulgaffar quotes from the New Testament; Conclusion - Therefore Abdulgaffar is very knowledgeable about the Bible. Just because I stated premise 1 and premise 2 or even if I add 3 & 4 DOES NOT NECESSARILY make the conclusion correct.

Logic MUST line up properly for the conclusion to make sense. Yours does not. All you seem to do is ATTEMPT to present a line of argument you THINK is reasonable but is not. You also need to look at aligning your responses well with initial posts. Learn to use tools in the site better. That shouldn't be hard for a 'logical' person as you; should it?

In the Bible there is difference between INHERENT SIN and personal sins committed by individuals. So, that a portion talks about "sin" has to be understood in its CONTEXT.

If you don't understand this clear biblical presentation then you will only IMPOSE your opinion on Bible passages.

So, let me ask you: From the Old Testament were people looking forward to a Messiah or Saviour? The answer is "Yes". What was he to save them from? The answer: From their sin.

When Jesus was to be given a name the Angel said: "... You shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins". So, the Old Testament animal sacrifices were to show 'faith' in God's ultimate solution for sin. That faith allowed God to 'cover' man's sin until his ultimate solution came.

When God's solution came at the CROSS the faith expressed BEFORE the cross and faith expressed AFTER the cross becomes efficacious.

Unlike what your understanding is, the Bible makes it clear that "in Adam all die". David said: "In sin did my mother conceive me". That again is why the Bible says: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". There is an inherent sin in all people. Arising from that, people commit acts of personal sin. While the personal sins of 'A' will not be transferred to 'B' there is still an inherent sin nature in both of them.

Abdulgaffar, how much works will qualify you for paradise? Can you give an honest answer please.

The CROSS is God's solution to man finding PEACE with God. Otherwise man will continue to struggle with "doing" things to attempt to satisfy God.

This is why the ATONEMENT in Christianity, which is God's solution, is the only LOGICAL way to salvation.

@ maximus69

If you think Isaiah 46:10 is not enough to prove that God has predestined all things, then here is another verse;

"Have you not heard? LONG AGO I ORDAINED it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass, that you have turned fortified cities into piles of stone. 2Kings 19:25" .


Please tell us the difference between "PREDESTINATION" and the phrase " LONG AGO I ORDAINED IT".


Despite the fact that Bible affirmed that God is All- powerful( Jeremiah 32:27, Matthew 19:26 ) and God is All- knowing( 1st John 3:20) you still deny these attributes simply because you believe that God is not the ULTIMATE AUTHOR OF EVIL.


But if God is not the ultimate author of evil, why did He create Satan in the first place ?


If God ONLY planned good things and not evil things as you claimed, then why did God declare as follows;


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL : I the LORD do ALL these things. (Isaiah 45:7 KJV)

@ Sagenaija

Don't lump things together. Take your time to respond to my LAST TWELVE points I used to counter your former argument. I will wait for you.

Abdulgaffar22:
@ maximus69

If you think Isaiah 46:10 is not enough to prove that God has predestined all things, then here is another verse;

"Have you not heard? LONG AGO I ORDAINED it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass, that you have turned fortified cities into piles of stone. 2Kings 19:25" .


Please tell us the difference between "PREDESTINATION" and the phrase " LONG AGO I ORDAINED IT".


Despite the fact that Bible affirmed that God is All- powerful( Jeremiah 32:27, Matthew 19:26 ) and God is All- knowing( 1st John 3:20) you still deny these attributes simply because you believe that God is not the ULTIMATE AUTHOR OF EVIL.


But if God is not the ultimate author of evil, why did He create Satan in the first place ?


If God ONLY planned good things and not evil things as you claimed, then why did God declare as follows;


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL : I the LORD do ALL these things. (Isaiah 45:7 KJV)

That's because of the freewill he gave intelligent creatures!
Remember that all other creatures have continued to live the way God created them except humans with freewill!
Long ago he planned GOOD things and nothing can thwart his plans, that's all!

Yes God created human being with free wills. But these free wills cannot go beyond what God has already ordained. That is to say our free wills are still subjected to God's command.

But let me ask you again; If God only planned for good things and not evil things, then why did
He create Satan in the first place ?

Abdulgaffar22:
Yes God created human being with free wills. But these free wills cannot go beyond what God has already ordained. That is to say our free wills are still subjected to God's command.

But let me ask you again; If God only planned for good things and not evil things, then why did
He create Satan in the first place ?

He never created the angel to become Satan {resister} or Devil {Liar} he was an angel created with freewill just like humans. But he is selfish and he allowed his selfish inclinations to lead him, so that whatever he does is motivated by selfish reasons. That's why Jesus said that the selfish Pharisees of the first century are children of Satan {John 8:44} Jesus is not saying that Satan impregnated their mothers but since everything they do is motivated by selfish desires, they remind Jesus of the angel who chose to be like that!
So God never created anyone to become evil, otherwise there is no reason for you to preach to me if God predestined me to be evil!

Abdulgaffar22:
@ Sagenaija

Don't lump things together. Take your time to respond to my LAST TWELVE points I used to counter your former argument. I will wait for you.

Just as I indicated. You come up with illogical points and then talk of countering your opponents arguments.

1. It is an act of INJUSTICE for Allah to ask his followers to perform certain acts and then turn around on the last day to decide on who to accept and who to reject; even those who were faithfully observing his rules.
2. It is an act of great INJUSTICE for Allah to ask Mohamed to raid caravans, pillage communities, steal other people's livelihoods and slaughter thousands of innocent lives when they could have simply been attracted to Islam in some other way.
3. It is an act of INJUSTICE for Allah to claim that a rapist, womaniser and women abuser is his "best" of human beings to qualify him to be his "final" prophet.
4. It is ILLOGICAL for Allah to claim he sent a CLEAR Koran and then say again that there are "ambiguous" things in it and that "none knows its interpretation". So, which is which - a clear book or an unclear book?
5. Only a god who himself lacks MORALS will support a man deficient in any standard of right behaviour and present such a one as his best example. Who will you present as a role model; a person rich in morals or one with every trait of the opposite?

Punching a hole in Christianity, if it were possible, will not make islam 'clean'; will it? Both the god and prophet of Islam leave much to be desired.

So, before you continue your 'logic' in Christianity first remove the 'LOG' from islam. There is absolutely no LOGIC in Islam. The opposite is what obtains - irrationality, nonsensical statements and Arabian tales stories that fit more in cartoons than spirituality or religion.

@Maximus 69

Based on your submission above, I want to ask you some questions;

1. If Satan was originally created by God as a perfect and righteous angel, then why did he suddenly CHANGE and began to acquire a selfish inclination and then become the worst of the creatures ? Remember that for every CHANGE, there must be a CAUSE.


2. Why did such a CHANGE from a perfect and righteous angel to a bad one happened ONLY to Satan out of MANY angels living in heaven at that time?


3. When God discovered that Satan has changed from righteous angel to an evil creature, then why did God not terminate his existence before the creation of Adam since it was not in God's original plan for such evil creature to exist ?

Abdulgaffar22:
@Maximus 69

Based on your submission above, I want to ask you some questions;

1. If Satan was originally created by God as a perfect and righteous angel, then why did he suddenly CHANGE and began to acquire a selfish inclination and then become the worst of the creatures ? Remember that for every CHANGE, there must be a CAUSE.


2. Why did such a CHANGE from a perfect and righteous angel to a bad one happened ONLY to Satan out of MANY angels living in heaven at that time?


3. When God discovered that Satan has changed from righteous angel to an evil creature, then why did God not terminate his existence before the creation of Adam since it was not in God's original plan for such evil creature to exist ?

Question (1)
Freewill is what leads intelligent creatures to choose between appropriate and inappropriate things, that's why your sharia says people's body parts be cut off for their wrongdoing otherwise that wouldn't have been if we all agree that it's not the fault of the offender! So Satan chose to be selfish and so other people can choose to be selfish too, that's not God's fault!

Question (2)
Other angels also joined Satan for selfish reasons {Genesis 6:1-5} and God kept all of them alive until he destroy them {1Peter 3:19-20,2Peter 2:4, Jude 6} since they didn't taste from the fruit that led to our own death they can't die naturally! Genesis 3:6

Question (3)
God don't kill without confirmation, immediately Satan started thinking like that God knew but he will not just destroy Satan without allowing him carry out his schemes so that others can SEE why Satan should be destroyed. We knew this as we consider how God dealt with Cain, before Cain killed his brother God has seen jealousy in his heart so he warned Cain to desist from envy! Genesis 4:1-8

So get it now that God did not plan it to be so!

@ Sagenaija
1. There is no any record in the Qur'an or Hadith that Allah will reject the Muslims on the last day who faithfully perform their works sincerely for His sake.
2. Allah commanded the prophet and his companions to raid the caravans as a REVENGE to what the non- believers in Mecca have seized of their goods and properties after their emigration from Mecca to Medina.
3. Bring an authentic evidence either from Qur'an or Hadith to prove that the prophet was a rapist. Except Aisha, almost all the women he married are widow. If he really liked to womanize, why going for the old instead of young women who has never get married ?
4. The portion of Qur'anic verses that are not entirely clear is far less significant in number compared to those that are entirely clear. Therefore, it is still a clear book. In fact, the presence of such unclear verses in the Qur'an points to its divine origin because no human being would write a book and decided to insert some things that he himself cannot explain.
5. When you go through the pages of hadith, you will see the love that companions have for the prophet till extent of dying to defend his life in the battle field. They spent all their time with him. If they knew him as a bad person, do you think they would be ready to sacrifice their lives for him.
Yes, if we are able to prove Christianity to be FALSE, then Islam must be TRUE. This is because if both Christianity and Islam were to be false and both Judaism and Hinduism are not within our reach, then God would have failed completely to disseminate his message to the humanity ( May God be glorified and exalted above such behavior)

@maximus 69


1. Freewill is the ability to choose between two or more options. Now if this ability is TOTALLY (and not partially) in the control of ALL intelligent creatures (like humans, demons and the angels) then why is it sometimes impossible for the ADDICTS to simply change their ways for the better even after learning the HARMS they have incurred from such addiction? Those who engaged in taking drugs or watching pornography always find it VERY DIFFICULT to change even if they seriously determined to do so. If the ability to choose between right and wrongs is TOTALLY in their control, then to discard this habit should not be difficult for them.
The wisdom behind the punishment legislated by Sharia is to create a "FEAR" in the minds of people who may also want to engage in such bad habit; Not necessarily meant to PUNISH the offender. However, this wisdom works for some people and it does not for others because the ability to choose between right and wrong is not TOTALLY in the control of human beings. It also depend on what God has ORDAINED LONG AGO( 2Kings 19:25 NIV, Qur'an 57:22). So what Satan will do by his freewill is already in the "knowledge" of God because He has ordained it even before his creation.
2. If it is true that some angels also acquired their selfish inclinations, then it was Satan that deceived them just like he deceived Adam, his wife and their Children till today.
3. Now that ALL the angels and past generations of human being have SEEN the evil work done by Satan, why did God still spare his life till today ? Eating of forbidden fruits is not the ONLY way that God can use to terminate the existence of his creatures. Or is it ? So claiming that Satan and other evil creatures did not eat from the fruits is the SOLE REASON for their prolonged lives till today is NOT TRUE. Therefore, God' sparing the life of Satan till today implies the will of God for good and evil to co- exist in this world ( Isaiah 45:7 KJV) . But in the Paradise, only good will exist.
In fact, according to the book of Genesis, our death on earth is not caused by eating of forbidden fruits. The main reason for our death on earth is because we are created from dust and we have to RETURN to that dust. See the evidence below;
"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food UNTIL YOU RETURN TO THE GROUND, SINCE FROM IT YOU WERE TAKEN; FOR DUST YOU ARE, AND TO DUST YOU WILL RETURN ( Genesis 3:19).
The ONLY consequence of eating the forbidden fruits mentioned in the book of Genesis as far as humans are concerned are " painful child births and eating of foods by hard labour " ( see Genesis 3:16-17). There is no mentioning of 'death or our sinful nature'. It was later invented by Paul.

I've answered you Abdulgaffar!

But you just want to insist that God prearranged everything and still want to punish those he has predestined to do evil!

Freewill as in the ability to choose between right and wrong is solely in our hands Sir!
It's the long time addiction that has made it difficult for many humans to change so many damn the consequences of evil, as those who are committing evil are getting away with it and circumstances surrounding them seems hopeless! Ecclesiastes 8:11

The purpose of preaching is to plead with intelligent creatures to help them see reasons with God who has promised a time when all these evil will be things of the past! Psalms 37:7-11

We also encourage ourselves to stay calm and wait for God to right all these wrong. Hebrews 10:24-25
Only one group is teaching the correct theory, that's why 99.9% of the earth keep teaching about Hellfire where people will be tormented forever and ever, while just one group is teaching that death is the wages of all kind of sin anyone can commit! Romans 6:7,23

As for Paul's teachings, don't bother about comparing it to Muhammad's teachings for now!

If the teachings is from God, it supposed to yield what is BENEFICIAL! Isaiah 48:17-18 compare to 2Timothy 3:16-17
Just present any group of people strictly following the teachings of Muhammad for everyone on this thread to understand the BENEFITS of the teachings of Muhammad as the group are PRACTICALLY APPLYING it.

Then compared them to over 8.5 millions of Jehovah's Witnesses who are strictly following the teachings of Apostle Paul throughout the earth. That's all!

Even if you are not going to answer the three questions please answer this one;

Now that ALL the angels and past generations of human being have SEEN the evil work done by Satan, why did God still spare his life till today ? Eating of forbidden fruits is not the ONLY way that God can use to terminate the existence of his creatures. Or is it ?

Please read more about Tabligh jamat who used to preach from mosque to mosque. They are the only group who seriously implement the command of Allah in Qur'an 3:104.

"Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain FELICITY"

If you are opportuned to be in their gathering, spent some time with them and you will see the real benefits of Islam that you are yet to witness

Abdulgaffar22:
Even if you are not going to answer the three questions please answer this one;

Now that ALL the angels and past generations of human being have SEEN the evil work done by Satan, why did God still spare his life till today ? Eating of forbidden fruits is not the ONLY way that God can use to terminate the existence of his creatures. Or is it ?

God did not spare Satan, he has appointed time for everything after all your Quran teaches that there is a time when all evil will end. Why not ask your Imams the same question "why God has not end all evil till now?"

Well the Bible answers that he wanted humans to fully perceive the consequences of the independent which Adam and Eve seek in the beginning. This two ingrates thought they'll succeed in ruling the earth without relying on their grand instructor. Now it's about 6,000 years now, humans have tried different system of government, yet none is bringing desired result.

So when it's glaring to all the inhabitants of the earth that human government is total failure, orderliness will be broken throughout all the earth, no one will obey another and chaos will be everywhere. That is the time God will intervene!
But for the main time, our work is to gather all those who are prepared to submit themselves WILLINGLY to God's rulership before he strike. Without all these, God's sovereignty will not be vindicated if he should hurriedly destroy Satan who claim that man can rule themselves successfully without God! Genesis 3:1-5

Abdulgaffar22:
Please read more about Tabligh jamat who used to preach from mosque to mosque. They are the only group who seriously implement the command of Allah in Qur'an 3:104.

"Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain FELICITY"

If you are opportuned to be in their gathering, spent some time with them and you will see the real benefits of Islam that you are yet to witness

I don't need to read about anything in books anymore, i've read thousands of books all telling stories of fairytales of virtue yet we're not seeing them at work!

Jehovah's Witnesses are not found in books, they're preaching and teaching throughout the earth and everyone can SEE them.

So tell your Tabligh Jamat that everyone can SEE preachers and teachers whose words have been felt globally, who have turned over 8.5 million of earth's inhabitants to peace-loving worshippers, who are known from one place to another. Tell them to come out and do the same, otherwise let them remain in the books and let their activities also remain in books.
We are humans Sir, we can only imitate what we're seeing PRACTICALISED not what is none applicable anywhere but in BOOKS!

Abdulgaffar22

I may not agree entirely with most of your postulations but I must commend you on your astuteness and maturity. I am impressed.

I acknowledge sanenaija and maximus69 too.

The discourse has been interesting.

What is more, existence of God, omnipotence, free will etc are controversial issues and will very likely be debated till eternity.


Nobody is sure or certain. However, by logical analysis, and if this were to be scored as a debate, abdulfaffar22 is streets ahead of you guys.

He seems to be versed in the bible as well as the Koran.


His points are syllogistic and deductive.


I hold this view despite not okaying all his postulations.