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What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? - Politics - Nairaland

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What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by oyinda3(f): 7:34am On Oct 31, 2010
I just read randomly that hedge fund managers are sometimes making upwards of 3 BILLION DOLLARS a year!!!!
India and China are also producing increasing numbers of millionaires lately.

I mean, according to the law of thermodynamics, energy is neither created nor destroyed. it can only be transferred (sometimes very inefficiently).
so while all this wealth is being accumulated by a very small group of financial leaders that are basically ruling the world, some others (poor people both in the US and especially in 3rd world countries, and future generations) are suffering for it.
the wealth gap is growing at a rapid rate.
all these is SO obvious but it seems like a crime to say anything against capitalism. why? 
why is it that people are stigmatized in society for criticizing some sometimes messed up American ideologies ex. capitalism, romantic love etc saying anything against these things no matter how constructive your intentions are will land you in a hot pot of . . .

. . .anyways, what do u guys think of capitalism? The reason we have allowed it to stay is because of the whole question of "what is the alternative to capitalism" I don't know the answer to this question but capitalism is so messed up. at least i'm sure of that.  sad

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by oyinda3(f): 7:37am On Oct 31, 2010
ok. i was going to say ignore the thermodynamics thing 'cause it sounds so off. but I just googled it and there are scholars using the same analogy

http://www.google.com/search?q=law+of+thermodynamics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&num=10&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=uom&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=law+of+thermodynamics+capitalism&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=b7b968c575c3858f

so plz have your say. all forms of creativity are welcome.

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 12:23pm On Oct 31, 2010
Still the best.

It must not be allowed to become Rentier. though.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 12:24pm On Oct 31, 2010
I think we should have a section for economics on this forum.

Seun!

1 Like

Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by redsun(m): 1:00pm On Oct 31, 2010
Liberal and accountable democrazy go hand in hand with capitalism. Capitalism can't work in country like nigeria with a very appalling and retrogressive democrazy.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Katsumoto: 2:24pm On Oct 31, 2010
Capitalism is required in all societies for wealth creation and innovation. It can be the antithesis of socialism and communism which sometimes encourage laziness. To see how important capitalism is, we just have to look at Russia and China. The USSR collapsed while China, which practises state capitalism, progressed after it inculcated capitalist policies promulgated by Deng Xiaoping in 1978.

Capitalism creates wealth which in turn gives rise to political power. I have to keep using China as an example because politically, it is still very much a communist country. Who would have guessed that China would have been able to outmuscle Japan in a diplomatic impasse? Two weeks ago, the Japanese released the Chinese crew that ran into Japanese vessels only because China threatened not to sell Rare Earth raw materials, which is required for Japanese industry, to Japan. A few years ago, China might have resorted to military arm twisting. A look at the G8 countries will reveal that they all practice capitalism.

Having said all that, not all societies can practice capitalism. First, they must inculcate certain policies and principles which are necessary for capitalism to thrive. Also, the government on any nation that practices capitalism must use a combination of monetary and fiscal policy to achieve wealth distribution. The government must use a combination of tax and welfare programs to attempt to strike a balance. However, this should not be too extreme, otherwise wealth creators and capitalists would simply relocate to more conducive business environments. This is all the more pertinent due to the globalisation which is very evident these days.

oyinda.:

I just read randomly that hedge fund managers are sometimes making upwards of 3 BILLION DOLLARS a year!!!!
India and China are also producing increasing numbers of millionaires lately.

so while all this wealth is being accumulated by a very small group of financial leaders that are basically ruling the world, some others (poor people both in the US and especially in 3rd world countries, and future generations) are suffering for it.
the wealth gap is growing at a rapid rate.
all these is SO obvious but it seems like a crime to say anything against capitalism. why? 
why is it that people are stigmatized in society for criticizing some sometimes messed up American ideologies ex. capitalism, romantic love etc saying anything against these things no matter how constructive your intentions are will land you in a hot pot of . . .


You will find that the tide is turning gradually. The US and most western nations, bar Germany, are in for a few years of austerity while some former third world nations such as Singapore, China, India, Vietnam,Brazil, etc are growing. This is due to the balance of trade between nations. The West had been consuming at an alarming rate before the economic crisis in 2008 while the developing nations were saving. Now the US together with other Western nations are crying out loudly. They scream about the manner in which manipulates its currency and that its citizens save too much and should start consuming so that Western economies can import less from China and export more to China, India, Brazil.

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Kobojunkie: 2:40pm On Oct 31, 2010
@Poster, over the years, I have seen similar calls for opinions on Capitalism that end up in the bins. I would rather we discuss what you think is so messed up about Capitalism.

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by redsun(m): 2:47pm On Oct 31, 2010
Capitalism is a case all are free but some are freea,a gross inequality in freedom of choices and dispositions.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Katsumoto: 5:19pm On Oct 31, 2010
ola olabiy:

I think we should have a section for economics on this forum.

Seun!

Going by the number of posts on this thread, do you still want an economics section? grin

1 Like

Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 5:23pm On Oct 31, 2010
Katsumoto:

Going by the number of posts on this thread, do you still want an economics section? grin

LWKMD.

I can see.

A section for economics would make Literature/Writing section look lively.

People are not interested, at all.

They only want 'romance' and unsubstantiated political posts.

Naija people.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Katsumoto: 5:35pm On Oct 31, 2010
ola olabiy:

LWKMD.

I can see.

A section for economics would make Literature/Writing section look lively.

People are not interested, at all.

They only want 'romance' and unsubstantiated political posts.

Naija people.

Correct. grin

If Oyinda changes the title to which tribe has the most capitalists, watch as the thread gets to page 18 in 45 minutes. grin grin grin grin grin grin grin
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by oyinda3(f): 12:45am On Nov 01, 2010
Kobojunkie:

@Poster, over the years, I have seen similar calls for opinions on Capitalism that end up in the bins. I would rather we discuss what you think is so messed up about Capitalism.   


how about we start with increasing income/wealth gap?
or exploitation of third world countries in the name of "market economy" ie capitalism. etc

there are so many things messed up about it. what this topic is mostly about is WHY do these calls end up in the bins? why is it very difficult to challenge capitalism?

let me use an example,
now in america, the vogue or cool thing to do is to eat "organic" whereas many years ago, all food were organic. lol this disease is affecting many third world countries now and in a few decades, "organic" food will be a thing of the past or a priviledge for a few. when big corporations take over our agricultural system!!
all in the name of capitalism, money and profit oriented society have taken over caring about the implications for health, culture and society well being in general.

capitalism has sooo many effects that we don't even naturally associate them together. but when you fit the pieces of the puzzle, the connections are very glaring.

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by oyinda3(f): 12:56am On Nov 01, 2010
Katsumoto,


Having said all that, not all societies can practice capitalism.

why is this? 
why isn't it possible for all societies to practice capitalism? isn't that the goal? isn't that what globalization is all about? the US wanting all coutries to adopt the market system etc


The West had been consuming at an alarming rate before the economic crisis in 2008 while the developing nations were saving. Now the US together with other Western nations are crying out loudly.

consumption is basically the #1 driver of capitalism. it's all about supply and demand. and there is no rule in capitalism against "too much consumption"
so why is excessive consumption backfiring if capitalism is so great?

to me, it is the future generations and poor countries that will suffer from it d most because the earth is becoming depleted of natural resources at a rapid rate. not only being depleted of resources but even being polluted. thanks to capitalism.

imagine a world where 3rd world countries lived the same way as the US? a world where everybody in the world owns a car, tv, can afford to fly etc etc do we even have enough resources to sustain that?
it pisses me off when people say that naija is not as developed as US. well, not every country can be as "developed" as the US. we will all perish and die because that kind of materialism and consumption driven by capitalism is not sustainable.

I do agree that wealth gives a country power. maybe the world wars, cold war etc caused countries to be more concerned about power rather than looking out for the good of the people.

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Katsumoto: 3:04am On Nov 01, 2010
oyinda.:

Katsumoto,

consumption is basically the #1 driver of capitalism. it's all about supply and demand. and there is no rule in capitalism against "too much consumption"
so why is excessive consumption backfiring if capitalism is so great?

to me, it is the future generations and poor countries that will suffer from it d most because the earth is becoming depleted of natural resources at a rapid rate. not only being depleted of resources but even being polluted. thanks to capitalism.

imagine a world where 3rd world countries lived the same way as the US? a world where everybody in the world owns a car, tv, can afford to fly etc etc do we even have enough resources to sustain that?
it pisses me off when people say that naija is not as developed as US. well, not every country can be as "developed" as the US. we will all perish and die because that kind of materialism and consumption driven by capitalism is not sustainable.

I do agree that wealth gives a country power. maybe the world wars, cold war etc caused countries to be more concerned about power rather than looking out for the good of the people.

Consumption is not the main driver of capitalism; wealth creation is the main driver of Capitalism. Germany is one of the largest economies in the world but its strength comes not from consuming itself but from others consuming its goods. While the rest of Europe that had been consuming for years started to scream about lack of funds, the Germans were safe because Germans are a saving people just like the Chinese.

The countries that will suffer the most are those without any kind of resources and those that fail to manage their resources. The issue that the US is facing is that it has always relied on internal consumption to overcome recessions in the past. But the problem with that this time is that it has outsourced most of its manufacturing and services to China and India. This is set to get worse with increased globalisation. Each corporation will pay an additional $11,000 per worker per year due to the Healthcare bill when the cost to a US corporation outsourcing to China, India, Malaysia is nil. Consequently, there are less people paying taxes, more people receiving welfare, and those with jobs worried about those jobs. Now add to the fact that the US debt is approximately $13 trillion ($54 trillion if you include debt not following due in the short term), deflationary concerns, immobility of workers due to negative equity, congress that is unlikely to agree on anything for the foreseeable future, other problems and them you start to the enormity of the problem facing the US.

The US must consume less, export more, and try to achieve a balance of trade with China to survive. Judging by the tone of your post, I can tell you that what you would like is beginning to happen. US citizens will get poorer while citizens of developing countries such as Brazil, China, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea that have invested in education, infrastructure, solid monetary and fiscal policy, are getting richer.

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Nobody: 3:11am On Nov 01, 2010
Oyinda- Thanks girl, from departing away from tribalism . A breath of fresh air kiss kiss

@Post

redsun:

Liberal and accountable democrazy go hand in hand with capitalism. Capitalism can't work in country like nigeria with a very appalling and retrogressive democrazy.

Gbam!
Katsumoto:

Consumption is not the main driver of capitalism; wealth creation is the main driver of Capitalism. Germany is one of the largest economies in the world but its strength comes not from consuming itself but from others consuming its goods. While the rest of Europe that had been consuming for years started to scream about lack of funds, the Germans were safe because Germans are a saving people just like the Chinese.

The countries that will suffer the most are those without any kind of resources and those that fail to manage their resources. The issue that the US is facing is that it has always relied on internal consumption to overcome recessions in the past. But the problem with that this time is that it has outsourced most of its manufacturing and services to China and India. This is set to get worse with increased globalisation. Each corporation will pay an additional $11,000 per worker per year due to the Healthcare bill when the cost to a US corporation outsourcing to China, India, Malaysia is nil. Consequently, there are less people paying taxes, more people receiving welfare, and those with jobs worried about those jobs. Now add to the fact that the US debt is approximately $13 trillion ($54 trillion if you include debt not following due in the short term), deflationary concerns, immobility of workers due to negative equity, congress that is unlikely to agree on anything for the foreseeable future, other problems and them you start to the enormity of the problem facing the US.


The US must consume less, export more, and try to achieve a balance of trade with China to survive.
Judging by the tone of your post, I can tell you that what you would like is beginning to happen. US citizens will get poorer while citizens of developing countries such as Brazil, China, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea that have invested in education, infrastructure, solid monetary and fiscal policy, are getting richer.


GBAM!!!!!
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Katsumoto: 3:17am On Nov 01, 2010
oyinda.:

Katsumoto,

why is this? 
why isn't it possible for all societies to practice capitalism? isn't that the goal? isn't that what globalization is all about? the US wanting all coutries to adopt the market system etc


Because of cultural differences amongst nations. If a nation does not have the right balance of welfare system, a progressive tax system, and a blend of solid policy, then what you get is a very unbalanced wealth distribution like what existed in Brazil prior to Lula getting elected with 1% of the population controlling approximately 96% of the wealth. Besides, what ever gave you the impression that the US wants all nations to adopt a free market system? The US wants all nations to adopt democracy and not a free market system. With a free market system in all countries, how do the rich nations get their raw materials, labour, and land at well below market price? Western corporations did not move to China and India to develop free market systems but to take advantage of lax labour laws, cheap labour, and cheap land.

Capitalism when practised rightly can be good and it is for each nation to understand how to implement capitalism and it shouldn't be based on another's country's implementation of capitalism. For instance China and Brazil both practise State Capitalism while India and Russia practice feudalistic capitalism, Britain and most European countries practice capitalism with mixed socialism.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by EzeUche0(m): 3:27am On Nov 01, 2010
Frankly, I feel that capitalism is the best economic system we have currently. No economic system has yet been discovered that is more effective in creating wealth as the free market system. After all, only capitalism has helped the world's downtrodden rise out of the of poverty and obscurity. Just look at the hundreds of millions who have risen out of poverty in the last few decades in India, Brazil and China by adopting free-market principles.

Capitalism requires cutthroat competition; therefore, the system awards winners and discards losers. Companies within this system are required to maximize profits and to grow. It is a dog eat dog world, and capitalism leads to INNOVATION.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by oyinda3(f): 7:28am On Nov 02, 2010
Besides, what ever gave you the impression that the US wants all nations to adopt a free market system? The US wants all nations to adopt democracy and not a free market system. With a free market system in all countries, how do the rich nations get their raw materials, labour, and land at well below market price? Western corporations did not move to China and India to develop free market systems but to take advantage of lax labour laws, cheap labour, and cheap land.


hmmm I always got the impression that the US is trying to move the world to a free market system 
the idea is that in a free market system, the country with the upper hand will always gain more (competitive advantage). This is the reason why US is very confident. Capitalism is good for the rich mostly. it improves the poor only marginally while it improves the rich exponentially making the rich-poor gap very wide. the US has extreme surplus of food going to waste while other countries are barely scraping by.
capitalists argue that everyone is better off but what's the point if a poor man is "better off" by one point while the rich man becomes better off by 1000 points? like Ezeuche said, it's a "dog eat dog world" and what i dislike is that countries like those in Africa are the ones being eaten etc
China is breaking the US competitive advantage now and that should give US something to be concerned about.

the whole Structural Adjustment Program (SAPs) for third world countries was to move the world toward capitalism and free trade. They gave us loans and in exchange, they expected us to open our markets up and drastically reduce our government ( the argument being that it was corrupt). We all know how that ended up. and i'm 100% positive it benefited the US and Europe (lots of raw material exports and import of cheap goods in exchange) while it hurt us so much we are still trying to recover. 
I agree that cultural differences might have played a bit of a role but to me the way i interpret it is that it is the ideology that is cultural ie capitalism is western concept etc. but US intention is definitely to promote free trade world wide. at least i'm almost sure of that.

EzeUche0:

Capitalism requires cutthroat competition; therefore, the system awards winners and discards losers. Companies within this system are required to maximize profits and to grow. It is a dog eat dog world, and capitalism leads to INNOVATION.

i'm not a huge fan of it. lol
but it does create wealth. i won't argue with that. the question though is: at what cost? where is this wealth coming from? are some other people losing out majorly because the US is gaining big time?
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by hercules07: 9:20am On Nov 02, 2010
Capitalism in its pure form is evil jare (Nigerian capitalism is just stealing) ask Russia, it needs a dose of Socialism for it to work. The western countries are not interested in free trade, they are interested in our raw materials while they continue to protect their own industries (Agriculture for instance), try exporting agricultural produce to Japan and see if it will not rot on the high seas.
Awolowo was a socialist and he was able to achieve a lot, Canada has a mix of both socialist and capitalist policies, we need to get the mix right, a difficult thing to do in naija especially with the kind of capitalists we have in naija (ibru, akingbola et al).

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by redsun(m): 9:46am On Nov 02, 2010
D dangers of capitalism is showing its evil face in today's america,neo nazi movements aka TP and RP rising against good and humane reforms by soulful Obama that will eleviate their fellow poor yankies.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Katsumoto: 10:04am On Nov 02, 2010
oyinda.:


hmmm I always got the impression that the US is trying to move the world to a free market system 
the idea is that in a free market system, the country with the upper hand will always gain more (competitive advantage). This is the reason why US is very confident. Capitalism is good for the rich mostly. it improves the poor only marginally while it improves the rich exponentially making the rich-poor gap very wide. the US has extreme surplus of food going to waste while other countries are barely scraping by.
capitalists argue that everyone is better off but what's the point if a poor man is "better off" by one point while the rich man becomes better off by 1000 points? like Ezeuche said, it's a "dog eat dog world" and what i dislike is that countries like those in Africa are the ones being eaten etc
China is breaking the US competitive advantage now and that should give US something to be concerned about.

the whole Structural Adjustment Program (SAPs) for third world countries was to move the world toward capitalism and free trade. They gave us loans and in exchange, they expected us to open our markets up and drastically reduce our government ( the argument being that it was corrupt). We all know how that ended up. and i'm 100% positive it benefited the US and Europe (lots of raw material exports and import of cheap goods in exchange) while it hurt us so much we are still trying to recover. 
I agree that cultural differences might have played a bit of a role but to me the way i interpret it is that it is the ideology that is cultural ie capitalism is western concept etc. but US intention is definitely to promote free trade world wide. at least i'm almost sure of that.

In every cloud there is a silver lining. Are the western countries not exploiting the SouthEast asian countries for labour, land, and military purposes. They have been doing that to them for years but there leaders came to a realisation one day and turned it into an advantage. If Africans can not seek to protect themselves and seek adavntages in their relationship with the West, who do you blame? Most of the SouthEast Asian countries are growing and will continue to grow for the foreseeable future. Is competition not a by-product of capitalism? Is competition not responsible for Western countries moving production to Asian? Who got the benefit of competition? Asia, and why did Africa not get it? Because of poor infrastructure, unstable governments, etc

Any soverreign nation that goes to another group of nations to borrow money will get exploited. Did the UK government of Harold Wilson not go to the IMF in 1976? Britain was forced to accept a SAP. It had to make deep cuts, increase taxation. Fast forward to 2010, has Britain not instituted SAP again, although not forced by the IMF but by the money markets. Did Greece, Ireland, Portugal, and Spain not go to the IMF and Germany this year as well? They will be running SAP programmes for the next four years and in the case of Greece, even longer. Nations are not too different from individuals and corporations in that, when you do not manage your resources competently, you get punished whether you are a rich nation or not.

If Capitalism was so bad, why was it adopted by China, Vietnam, and Russia? Does China not have the world's largest cash reserve today? Capitalism is like other philosophies such as religion. The teachings are not wrong; it is usually man's implementation that is at fault.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Kay17: 10:32am On Nov 02, 2010
I do not think capitalism is the best means of distributing resources round, it provides to those with the means rather than the need. And as long as it is such, poverty will still have a place here. Vital necessities like education, will be for the few. Health care . . .

A milder strand of communism, should be sought. Technology is the key factor for centralized distribution to work.

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Kay17: 10:34am On Nov 02, 2010
We also have to contend with the endless economic cycles.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Beaf: 12:36pm On Nov 02, 2010
Any discussion about capitalism is quickly overtaken by the deliberate confusion built into its modern definitions by colonisers and exploiters who see the greed of the few as an invaluable tool to dominate the many. Until Global economic meltdown, their mantra was, "greed is good."

If defined as a system in which private production generates private wealth through natural competition, then capitalism becomes almost an ideal.
The only drivers against its ideal status are societal laws, traditions and non-obvious needs; a good example is the protection and commercialisation of inventions. By their very nature, inventions are non-obvious to the average mind, yet have the potential to drive society upwards; in developed capitalist countries, the competitive factor in capitalism is discarded to give the inventor an unfair advantage for the benefit of all; this is done in the form of patents and copyrights.
The long and short of the above, is that capitalism must be governed in the wider interest of society.

The problems most have with capitalism are due to its evil use by colonisers and exploiters who have made themselves the “holy men” of capitalism.
The readiest tool in the exploiters arsenal is the deliberate obfuscation of the boundaries between the concepts of freedom, free markets, democracy and capitalism; for example, classifying China as "State Capitalist", because (amongst other similar reasons) China does not allow non-governmental players determine the value of its currency, the Yuan.

The thing to fear and loathe is not capitalism, but the purveyors of freedom, free markets, democracy and capitalism as a single ideology.
The two orphans in the above ideology are freedom and the free market. Freedom must have limits or give way to anarchy and dissolution of law, morality and society; while the free market concept is anarchic and the very antithesis of individual freedoms (corporations become societal gods).
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by lekside44(m): 9:54pm On Nov 02, 2010
best thing that will happen to mankind. no food for lazyman

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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by udeze(m): 10:52pm On Nov 02, 2010
Capitalism has it's own Pros and cons, It brings about competition which is very good for fast development, on the other hand, excessive greed which comes with it can make some ppl poor, under capitalism, you have to pay for everything ranging from healthcare to the basic necessities of life, not everybody can afford this under capitalism

1 Like

Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Kilode1: 10:58pm On Nov 02, 2010
The capitalist sky is not big enough for every bird.

Beaf is on point on so many levels. Unfortunately, the negative effect of capitalism, especially the pure unbridled kind, is like the elephant in the room that no one wants to address, -at least the powers that control the world system we currently live under don't want it addressed.

I also agree with Kobojunkie, I will rather we focus on discussing the problems of capitalism, we've heard enough about its great benefits IMO, maybe the Economics, and Philosophy egg heads here will lend us their minds and demystify this "amazing system" that has failed to solve world poverty or conquer hunger even in countries where they worship it like a god.

My opinion is that a Capitalist system where the top 1% controls over 40% of the wealth while the bottom 40% own just about 1% is just plain unfair, be it in Nigeria, USA or China.

1 Like

Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Gamine(f): 10:59pm On Nov 02, 2010
It's weird this comes up now, having a discussion with my uncle on this, just hours ago. (Comm Vs Cap) ism
MY opinion, Capitalism is Evil, Making Man worse than he already was.

Everything else I wanted to say, has been said! at this point cheesy
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Nobody: 11:06pm On Nov 02, 2010
What is good about a system that enrichs only a few elites at the detriment of the poor.Capitalism started from feudalism and it's now a modern slavery in the contemporary age ! No wonder marx was bitterly hated for canvassing for a classless state.

1 Like

Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Ndipe(m): 11:12pm On Nov 02, 2010
In a capitalistic society, individuals are forced to be innovative to get a headway in the society. Socialism brings about stagnation, laziness and a sense of entitlement. However, capitalism should be practised in moderation, too much of it leads to a wide gulf between the rich and the poor and a total devotion to mammon.
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Mobinga: 11:14pm On Nov 02, 2010
Katsumoto:

Correct. grin

If Oyinda changes the title to which tribe has the most capitalists, watch as the thread gets to page 18 in 45 minutes. grin grin grin grin grin grin grin


grin grin grin Lol funny guy smiley

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