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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by cap28: 1:16am On Nov 04, 2010 |
Sagamite: Sagamite socialism "failed" in Cuba because it has been economically blockaded by the US and a host of other countries since 1959!!! which country would develop in such dire circumstances, the fact of the matter is that despite this injustice, it has STILL succeeded in educating the vast majority of its people and providing them with free health care a feat that the US is yet to achieve. Nigeria despite its vast oil reserves has nothing to show for itself other than the fact that it succeeded in blowing over $300 billion USD in less than 3 decades!!!! |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by manny4life(m): 1:19am On Nov 04, 2010 |
I never knew Cuba was a socialist nation; Cuba is a Communist nation, Please let me know if I'm wrong. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by youngmonie: 1:22am On Nov 04, 2010 |
cap28:Everything falls under the rule of law and Government intervention through policy implementation. But u see Nigeria is a country were we take a lot of things for granted. Take the Niger Delta issue for instance I am pretty sure there are loads of laws and policy concerning oil exploration drilling and oil spillages but they are never implemented, all this oil companies get away with all sort of attrocites why because they know nothing will happen so one is going to call them to book and the government know they are not accountable to anyone dat is why a senator would recieve all his salary and benefits but the man working for Nitel may not even get paid in 6months |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by manny4life(m): 1:25am On Nov 04, 2010 |
youngmonie: What Nigeria is Lacking is "DISCIPLINE". Nigerian Govt wants to control everything; it's not possible. When the Govt has its hands in everything; then lack of oversight abounds, but if they stick to what they do best; regulating and etc, they they would have more time to discipline themselves as well as other issues. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 1:25am On Nov 04, 2010 |
I think Cuba has been socialist since 1961. I am not very sure, though. But, don't be fooled by the term 'Comunist Party'. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by manny4life(m): 1:29am On Nov 04, 2010 |
ola olabiy: Oh well like I studied in Economics; Cuba is a Communist nation. Even the U.S. state dept classifies Cuba as a Communist nation |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Sagamite(m): 1:52am On Nov 04, 2010 |
cap28: One country putting an embargo on you is not an excuse for failure. cap28: US has not achieved the feat because US DOES NOT INTEND OR WANT TO achieve the feat. That point is lame, you need to get your facts right. The US does not believe in free health care is the reason US does not have one, not because Cuba has a superior ideology. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 2:00am On Nov 04, 2010 |
manny4life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba QOUTE; ''''''The Constitution of 1976, which defined Cuba as a socialist republic, was replaced by the Constitution of 1992, which is guided by the ideas of José Martí, Marx, Engels and Lenin.[4] The constitution describes the Communist Party of Cuba as the "leading force of society and of the state".[ |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Kilode1: 2:03am On Nov 04, 2010 |
ola olabiy: that's funny But, don't you think that is a better alternative to what I'll call Wombia Consumerism? the type of chop till you quench economy that capitalist corporations love to encourage. It is sadder that we love it in Nigeria too(another topic entirely) At least they(Cubans) were forced to live within their means and conserve their resources. That is something I will recommend for My country and $12billion deficit America!! Seriously though, I do not support the kind of heavy handed Communism practiced by Castro and his brigades over the years. The oppression and victimization of the opposition as practiced by Castro and his regime I believe did rob Cuba of essential alternative ideas even in the face of Imperialist enemies IMO. But, I'm not wearing Castro's shoes and internet radicalism is not the same as guerrilla warfare. So I will let Castro be for now. Back to Nigeria; I think we need to destroy class as much as we can and raise reason above silly emotions and cultural practices in our quest to develop an economic system that will fit our environment. Walahi, I love aspects of our culture and our beliefs but, some things will have to give way if we want to get it right "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 2:04am On Nov 04, 2010 |
manny4life: http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2008/02/19/cuba-socialist |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by cap28: 2:07am On Nov 04, 2010 |
Sagamite: The US trade embargo has a knock on effect because it also penalises foreign companies that do business in Cuba by preventing them from doing business in the US. In addition sanctions can also be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba, the embargoe even stipulates that ships docking at Cuban ports are not allowed to dock at U.S. ports for six months!!!! Despite all this Cuba still IMPORTS goods from the US but importation of Cuban goods into america is banned!!! |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 2:07am On Nov 04, 2010 |
Kilode?!:Hmm You made a valid point. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Sagamite(m): 2:15am On Nov 04, 2010 |
cap28: Where did you get this information from? |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by manny4life(m): 2:24am On Nov 04, 2010 |
ola olabiy: This Wikipedia that you reference; isn't it someone like you and I that wrote the article? Anyway, it's ok to reference from an unvalidated source; however, it doesn't change the anything. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by cap28: 2:28am On Nov 04, 2010 |
Sagamite: i think your point is unbeleivably lame - if the US were so disinterested in affordable health care for its citizens why has Obama introduced the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act? |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by manny4life(m): 2:32am On Nov 04, 2010 |
cap28: I thought what Sagamite said was" Free health care" not "Affordable health care". If you ask me, these are two different things all together, although they convey somewhat same relevance in the context. Did I get something wrong here? |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Gamine(f): 2:45am On Nov 04, 2010 |
Read this ---> http://blackagendareport.com/?q=content/existential-crisis-us-capitalism and read, Martin Jacques - When China Rules the World. Capitalism is a major failure. I really like that the topic has moved to the Nigerian context, and this posts raises valid points, this has to be etched into our mindsets
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Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 3:13am On Nov 04, 2010 |
ola olabiy: Mannylife, This is not a Wiki source. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Nobody: 4:35am On Nov 04, 2010 |
I smell a lot of hypocrisy here, The same people who condemn capitalism and extol socialism/communism's vitues would never want to live in a communist state. How many people do we hear of fleeing the "exploitation" of capitalist countries and escaping to socialist paradise? Yet we constantly hear of people braving shark-infested waters to escape from socialist utopia (cuba, North Korea, Laos etc) and to be "exploited" in capitalist countries (UK, US). Any one that truly wants to understand capitalism should read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. He sums up the book in the following comment, "it is not from the benevolence of the butcher or the baker that we expect our dinner but from his pursuit of his own self interest" Society's interest is best served when everyone pursues his/her own self interest. This is what makes capitalism succeed and others fail. They fail because they do not consider that man is naturally selfish. Any ideology that forces all men to live equally is bondage. Any system that does not reward private initiative and enterprise is oppressive. Has anyone bothered to understand why things work best in Nigeria or elsewhere when they are privately run and every thing that is run by the state is poorly run? I challenge anyone to contradict me. If you dislike capitalism and private enterprise, put your money where your mouth is, refuse to patronize goods and services made available through private initiative and enterprise and look to the state to supply all your needs. Do it for a year and come back to tell us what you learnt! |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Nobody: 4:52am On Nov 04, 2010 |
Talking of Midas touch, everything the Nigerian state has touched is an enigma of inefficiency, corruption and top to bottom utter waste of national resources. Economically speaking, the infrastructure of electricity, energy and water resources ceded to the state from the beginning of time is in utter shambles. Even industries built and ran by the state for the benefit of its members i.e. the Oligarchy is comatose; yet, Nigerians still prefer to have the state run everything, no wonder anyone capitalists are hated in Nigeria! Capitalism assures optimal allocation of capital. Something a private individual will do for 'X' dollars, the state will do for '10X' dollars and it will still not be any good. that is why the state can spend 6 Billion dollars on a steel plant and it has never produced a single gram of steel and yet its thousands of workers are paid every month. Where is the money coming from? Its from the sweat (taxes) of productive capitalist enterprises like Shell, MTN and Iya Sikira. That is the redistridution of wealth that myopic minds prefer? The subsidization of indolence. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 4:53am On Nov 04, 2010 |
kalokalo: GBAM! Don't mind them jare. They can't survive a week in N. Korea. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by olaolabiy: 4:59am On Nov 04, 2010 |
kalokalo: GBAM! This is the reason why: ola olabiy: |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Nobody: 5:13am On Nov 04, 2010 |
Another problem in a non-capitalist economy is the 'Something for Nothing' ideology strongly belived in. The only things that work in Nigeria are things that people pay for. Telecoms,airlines, banks work because they are private sector driven and people must pay for their services! The things that don't work in Nigeria are monopolies run by the state and they are inefficient,corrupt, incompetent and people still prefer this?? For example, railway services is a state run monopoly and it is comatose, why can't individuals buy trains and run rail services the same way individuals buy planes and run airlines(Arik, Aero) or buy buses and run services (Chisco, Ekene Dili Chukwu). Why can't an individual take it upon himself to provide a better alternative to the corrupt monopoly called PHCN and alleviate our suffering? This is the beauty of capitalism Nigeria is what it is today because we get what we want!! Yes I know, the state gets revenue from an oil commodity and it is its 'responsibility' to provide for Nigerians from their cradle to their graves! A state run welfare economy is noble in theory but fails in practice due to unsustainability. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by cecegorz(m): 8:47am On Nov 04, 2010 |
kalokalo: Guy, you may be kalokalo by name, but not at all in your thought process I bet the people that are shouting 'death to capitalism!' can see the frivolity of their arguments. Most of them are even sitting in offices made possible by a Capitalist Entrepreneur, and will still be urging their kids to get quality education so they can work for a 'big' company In as much as the system is as flawed as the people implementing it, because 'to the pure, all things are pure, and to the crooked, all things are crooked' the world don't have it any other better way yet ! Endermic indolence of the Northern Oligarchs spurred them to entrench federal character( one of the worst things in this country) into our constitution, making sure they and their incompetent cronies are always part of the running of state owned concerns. That is why they fight privatisation/liberalization of key industries with their blood because a Capitalist Entrepreneur will sweep away all non-performing cronies manning critical functions. Policy reversals of privatised concerns (PHCN, NITEL, Railway, et al ) are mostly done because a section feels they can not field in quality manpower based on merit as only the quota system gives them a permanent seat. But thanks to the glaring example of the Telcos, inspite of their QoS imperfections yet, warts and all, no sane Nigeria will ever wish the return of monolithic NITEL days! Some of these are the socio-political bottlenecks that must give way for my country to take it's pride of place in the comity of nations. |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Sagamite(m): 11:00am On Nov 04, 2010 |
cap28: Do you listen to the news? Apart from difference between free and affordable that was pointed out to you, you do not know there are Americans that vehemently oppose the healthcare bill and have blocked it for years? You did not know Clinton tried to introduce it in the 90s? You do not know that the Republicans that just won the mid-term even plan to find a way to reverse it? You honestly think America cannot afford and implement a free healthcare programme if it WANTS? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-542502.160.html#msg7074763 |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by lakode(m): 2:31pm On Nov 04, 2010 |
First thing I will point out is that ;going through the evolution of the monetary system and macroeconomics dynamics of nations , there as always being a certain system of economics that rules , not basically cos' it flawless , but depending on the global leader, In between the world wars and slightly after it , the common measure was the idea of equality and that brought about the communism system and this idea was basically championed by the USSR , But the rise of capitalism definitely points to the USA , although most conservative dont agree with must ideas of capitalism , but it seems to be what works now , maybe tomorrow it will be another system Its funny to say a country like China that claims to be a communist state is also embracing all ideals of capitalism( I wonder what is communism in what china practice), but you cant blame china in a world growing fast due to the hype of the word "Globalization", and what will you say a country like ours (Nigeria) is practicing For me all this are just words coined for description purposes ,If you look closely there is hardly any economy not having both COMMUNIST and CAPITALIST character , It just depends on your view , as far as wealth wont be shared equally( even in socialism) and the market wont still be free for everyone to invest (even in capitalism ) THEN WHAT IS THE FUSS ABOUT THESE TERMS |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by cap28: 2:42pm On Nov 04, 2010 |
Sagamite: okay can you clarify what it is exactly you are saying ? are you saying that a relatively poor country like Cuba which is able to provide free health care to its citizens has failed whereas a country as rich and powerful as america which has the wherewithal to do so but chooses not to is admirable? Cuba is a tiny island which has been economically blockaded by america and many other western nations for over 50 years and is STILL able to provide free health care whereas the US which is one of the richest countries on the planet chooses not to do this and is to be commended are you sure you understand the issue here. you have actually demonstrated unwittingly the reason why capitalism can not be a good thing for the common man on the street. The people who oppose health care reform are the insurance companies who reap huge profits by way of extortionate insurance health care premiums, of course these people will lobby against any reform of the system. Do you know anyone who would be happy if their gravy train were suddenly terminated? I dont think you understand how capitalism works, capitalist economies base everything they do on profit, anything which does not generate profit is not worth venturing into hence the huge opposition from powerful insurance healthcare lobby groups. Try and understand issues before you open your mouth!!! |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Sagamite(m): 3:18pm On Nov 04, 2010 |
cap28: That is not my point. I think you erred by referring to Cuba and trying to praise their healthcare as an achievement that the capitalism of US cannot provide. Not that I think it is good US do not give free healthcare. I challenged you because: 1) There are several Westerm capitalist countries that give FREE healthcare, so it was lame to praise Cuba and proffer an argument like if US can not achieve the same. 2) I think I have told you this before, Cuba's healthcare is only achievable because of quasi-forced labour. The government pays the medical staff peanuts and give them no option of leaving the system. That is virtually the only way they can achieve the feat, not some genius of a process, otherwise they would not have resources to execute the free healthcare programme. 3) Communism is utter SHYT! Never praise it no matter what good side you see to it. Your argument was lame to refer to some free healthcare and stewpid literacy rates to prove that communism of Cuba is better than capitalism of USA. That was a lame proof, you have to come up with arguments better than that. cap28: You still have not shown me your source here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-542502.160.html#msg7074763 And now you add another. Which "many other western nations" have placed economic embargo on Cuba? Please educate me due to my "lack of understanding". cap28: Really? Let me let you answer the ones above before we delve into this. Let us see your understanding. At least, I take it we have come to the point where you realise the US can afford free healthcare if they want? Am I right in thinking that? |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by malabite: 3:31pm On Nov 04, 2010 |
Katsumoto
I disagree with you. It's not just white and black as you think. There are grey areas, and different shades of grey indeed. No two economically successful countries have the same ideology. I bet you Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland do not have the same ideologies. What Cuba does is not what you find in North Korea. Even Canada and USA dont share the same ideology. You can't even say USA is capitalist with all it's welfare system, not to talk of Britain that is almost overdoing its welfare. There is no welfare in a capitalist system. I read one article where an economist tried to classify all the developed countries as welfare capitalism. But it still makes the whole thing messy, because USA and Sweden does not have the same level of welfare |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by cap28: 3:52pm On Nov 04, 2010 |
Sagamite: Of course its a major acheivement considering the draconian trade embargoes that the country is currently being subjected to. I challenged you because: Like? can we have examples please, and while your at it explain how this health care is free the issue here is not whether america can provide free or affordable healthcare but the fact that it CHOOSES NOT TO because it beleives in the free market system controlling all aspects of the economy. 2) I think I have told you this before, Cuba's healthcare is only achievable because of quasi-forced labour. The government pays the medical staff peanuts and give them no option of leaving the system. That is virtually the only way they can achieve the feat otherwise they would not have resources to execute the free healthcare programme. So what? the point is health care provision is seen as a priority for the people by the Cuban govt whereas in powerful america only those rich enough to pay extortionate insurance premiums can afford it - does that make sense to you? 3) Communism is utter SHYT! Never praise it no matter what good side you see to it. Can we have some constructive arguments from you to demonstrate why you think communism is "utter shyt"? [quoteYour argument was lame to refer to some free healthcare and stewpid literacy rates to prove that communism of Cuba is better than capitalism of USA. That was a lame proof, you have to come up with arguments better than that. [/quote] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act And now you add another. Which "many other western nations" have placed economic embargo on Cuba? see above Really? see above |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by lekside44(m): 4:38pm On Nov 04, 2010 |
well, man itself started as a capitalist when he has to carter for himself and his family. communism started when man started forming a society and creating societal corporations and organizations which is not possible for individuals, or organizations to funds due to the large capitals involves and technicality. e.g NASA we in Africa and many third world countries are suffering with capitalism because we do not have the factors of productions which the western world have. and thus, we are buying computers, phones and ipods made of sand at extremely high prices, but the chines imitators have shown us that these things can be produced at a far less price than what the western world are offering |
Re: What Is Your Opinion On Capitalism? by Sagamite(m): 4:39pm On Nov 04, 2010 |
cap28: You allusion was "it was an achievement the US has not been capable of". I take it, I have educated you that was wrong, the US can achieve the feat? cap28: You don't know Western countries that provide free healthcare? UK, France, Canada, Germany etc? People are taxed to pay for a publicly-funded healthcare system. cap28: No, that was not the issue! The issue was your claim (understanding) that US was not capable of achieving the feat whilst Cuba can. cap28: No, that is not the point. The point is that, it is lame to use such as the excuse of why communism is better than capitalism since there are capitalist nations that already provide free or affordable healthcare THAT IS BETTER than Cuba's. cap28: You really don't need wasting time having arguments on this. Just go and research the number of nations that have tried it, failed and dropped it. Whilst you are at it, try and figure out how many of the citizens of the communist countries try and escape to a capitalist country and the governments have to be brutal to keep them in the system. cap28: It is INDICATIVE, NOT QUALITATIVE!!! Because 99.999% of Cubans can read and write does not mean it is a more economically developed than China if China has only 91% literacy rate! Out of the Cubas figure, it may only be that 20% are educated to a high level and even albeit not of a highly regarded quality, whilst 64% of China has education of the highest quality. Literacy rate is only indicative of those than can read and write! It does not mean jack nothing, it is a lame tool to be used solely for comparing development between nations. Do you get it? cap28: Did you read the Reaction section of the link? 1) The law was passed in 1996, not 1959 as you implied. 2) It was condemned by virtually all Western nations and the UN stating it violates international laws and many enacted laws that ban their citizens or companies from complying with the law. So only US has placed an economic embargo on Cuba since 1959 as I said, not "many western nations" as you claimed? |
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