budaatum:

Seek, it is written, and you will find. So those who wish to know question, while those who already know usually don't bother to be responsible.

You see what I mean... That is so you..

sonmvayina:


You see what I mean... That is so you..

You see what I mean... That is so me..

missjo:

Edomites, descendants of Esau.
Moabites and Ammonites, descendants of Lot.
Israelites, descendants of Jacob.

All the above have a common ancestry starting from Terah who himself was a direct descendant of Shem, Noah's son.

The Canaanites (Palestinians) on the other hand all share a common ancestry as direct descendants of Canaan, son of Ham who saw his father Noah's unclothedness.

As an addendum, the Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks Romans, etc are said to be descendants of Japheth who also share in the blessing with Shem to rule over the descendants of Ham, more specifically, Canaan (the curse).

Here's another dimension to add to this. The curse was placed on Canaan more than 500 years before The Israelites showed up in the land of Canaan.

So again, given that Canaan was not the only people enslaved by Israel, at a point i.e. it shared a fate similar to other peoples(different roots from Canaan), this surely leads away from the idea of a curse being to blame and more towards God acting as He said He would have it.

Kobojunkie:


Here's another dimension to add to this. The curse was placed on Canaan more than 500 years before The Israelites showed up in the land of Canaan.

So again, given that Canaan was not the only people enslaved by Israel, at a point i.e. it shared a fate similar to other peoples(different roots from Canaan), this surely leads away from the idea of a curse being to blame and more towards God acting as He said He would have it.

The curse specifically stated that Canaan/Ham would serve his brothers. This came to pass when Israel (Shem) conquered and took over the land of the Canaanites (Ham).
It doesn't matter if it takes 1000years, what God has validated/promised comes to pass.

With the exception of Canaan, I don't know of any other lands and people that were conquered or enslaved by the Isrealites, do you?

Note that fighting a war and winning it is not the same as conquering or enslavement. The 12 tribes of Israel, 13 if you count the Levites, were assigned their lands only within the boundary of the area known to have belonged to the Canaanites. These lands became theirs (conquer) and any inhabitants that were not killed became slaves (enslavement).
They held no lands in Edom, Ammon, Moab, or Assyria, even though they fought wars with these countries and won sometimes.


Another quick example of a curse made by man, validated by God, but only came fulfilled many years in the future, was the curse of Jericho proclaimed by Joshua. After the walls were destroyed and the city sacked, a curse was placed that whosoever tried to rebuild it would lose his first son and his last son, in that exact order.
It took some generations later, but this curse was also fulfilled.

missjo:

The curse specifically stated that Canaan/Ham would serve his brothers. It came to pass when Israel (Shem) conquered and took over the land of the Canaanites (Ham). It doesn't matter if it takes 1000years, what God has validated/promised will come to pass.

With the exception of Canaan, I don't know of any other lands and people that were conquered or enslaved by the Isrealites, do you?

Note that fighting a war and winning is not what conquering is about.
The 12 tribes of Israel, 13 if you count the Levites, were assigned their lands only within the boundary of the area known to have belonged to the Canaanites. They had no lands in Edom, Ammon, Moab, or Assyria, even though they fought wars with these countries and won sometimes.

Ok.
But I still don't believe that man has the ability to curse or bless that which he cannot create. I believe that power belongs to the Almighty and Him alone.

Kobojunkie:
Ok.
But I still don't believe that man has the ability to curse or bless that which he cannot create. I believe that power belongs to the Almighty and Him alone.

Lol, a man who curses/blesses is not doing it of his own power, it's the power and authority of God in him through the holy spirit that enables this ability.

A sinner cannot curse and expect God to validate it.

There are many recorded instances involving men of God & prophets in the bible placing curses/blessings which came to pass.
I included the example of Joshua above before you quoted my post (again), lol.

The power to bless and curse is found in the tongue, but not just any tongue, the tongue has to belong to someone whom God has found holy and acceptable in his sight, not just anyone who is angry and then decides to retaliate by throwing curses around. The latter is a beautiful waste of time

missjo:
Lol, a man who curses/blesses is not doing it of his own power, it's the power and authority of God in him through the holy spirit that enables this ability.
A sinner cannot curse and expect God to validate it.

Your statement assumes God gave man power to curse/bless his fellow man, but there is no evidence of this in scripture. Whether sinner or saint, there is no evidence that either has the power to bless or curse any of God's creation.

missjo:
There are many recorded instances involving men of God & prophets in the bible placing curses/blessings which came to pass.
I included the example of Joshua above before you quoted my post, lol.The power to bless and curse is found in the tongue, but not just any tongue, the tongue has to belong to someone whom God has found holy and acceptable in his sight, not just anyone who is angry and then decides to retaliate by throwing curses around. The latter is a beautiful waste of time

A good example would be the story of Balaam being hired to curse the people of Israel. We learn from that very story that God is the one who administers curses and blesses, not man.
Following that reveal, it is safe to assume that the power to bless and to curse are indeed not in the tongue of men. The power of life and death maybe, but not blessings and curses.

Your example with Joshua's curse on Jericho again seems a bit of a stretch just like the claim of the curse on Canaan being to blame for Israel's eventual annexation of the land of Canaan.

RuggedSniper:
^^WORD! PLAGIARIZED FROM THE 'EPIC OF GILGAMESH' AND OTHER ANCIENT SOURCES. I HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THIS SINCE THE 1990s.

Sure you have!

RuggedSniper:
Cyrus the Great of Persia (and the anointed of the bible god)... who was a Zoroastrian and the 'King of Kings' in the book of Ezra, created Judaism via Ezra a Persian Magi... an agent of Cyrus.

Ezra was not a magi as he was a teacher of the Jewish laws.

RuggedSniper:
Magis are the chief priests of the Zoroastrian religion of PERSIA. Ezra is the allegorical Moses!

Ezra was no allegorical Moses. That statement is untrue.

RuggedSniper:
The use of burnt clay tablets by the Moses

What burnt clay tablets by Moses do you speak of?

RuggedSniper:
...is anacronistic and only used by the Babylonians, Sumerians, Persian Empire...

Wasn't the ancestor of the Israelites, Abraham not a summerian from the land of Ur of Chaldeans?

RuggedSniper:
Pharisees is the main branch of Judaism derived from the word Parsi or Persia or Iran!

Pharisees were in fact members of a social movement founded in 167 BCE. The word comes from the aramaic word "PriSayya" meaning separated ones.

RuggedSniper:
Cyrus Cylinder burnt clay wordings are very similar to the book of Ezra.

Similar in what sense?

RuggedSniper:
Iran is the origin of Judaism.

They were exiles in Babylon for approximately 70 years.

RuggedSniper:
Why did the bible God refer to Cyrus 'as my anointed?' Because Judaism is an imperfect copy of the Zoroastrian religion of Cyrus who was the colonial master of the ancient Israelites who worshipped many Gods.

Huh? First of all, you know nothing about Zoroastrianism, do you? You've lost me here!

RuggedSniper:
'El' originally means many Gods NOT one God which was introduced by the Persians. The journey from Egypt and the 40 years in the wilderness never took place. NO grand kingdom of David or the walls of Jericho according to Prof. Ze'ev Hertzog an Israeli archaeologist... Neil Silberman in the book he co-wrote entitled: (The Bible Unearthed) also said the same and MORE! I Hope this helps everyone reading this. Cc: missjo, budaatum. @Kobojunkie... Why was there a resistance to the building of a new temple in Jerusalem by some people during the time of Ezra and the Persian Empire conquest? Because they were bringing a new religion or doctrine from Persia, even t though there was propaganda talk of restoring the religions of the conquered peoples. This is a reply to the question you asked me on page 2 nof this thread today. Again many similarities between the Zoroastrian and Jewish doctrines exist and the old testament reeks of this! Esther's uncle was a cup bearer for the king of Persia. Only ZOROASTRIAN Magis or Priests can act as a cup bearers. Rabbis and Magis also dressed alike. Pharisee is derived from the word Parsi (Persia or modern Iran).

Dude, you need to stop reading sources that were compiled by ignorant minds.

Kobojunkie:
Your statement assumes God gave man power to curse/bless his fellow man, but there is no evidence of this in scripture. Whether sinner or saint, there is no evidence that either has the power to bless or curse any of God's creation.
A good example would be the story of Balaam being hired to curse the people of Israel. We learn from that very story that God is the one who administers curses and blesses, not man.
Following that reveal, it is safe to assume that the power to bless and to curse are indeed not in the tongue of men. The power of life and death maybe, but not blessings and curses.

Your example with Joshua's curse on Jericho again seems a bit of a stretch just like the claim of the curse on Canaan being to blame for Israel's eventual annexation of the land of Canaan.

Lol, how is Joshua's curse a bit of a stretch? The curse wasn't fulfilled?

missjo:

Lol, how is Joshua's curse a bit of a stretch? The curse wasn't fulfilled?

I don't believe it was the curse that did it. Given that other cities were also impacted in a similar manner, I don't believe it was the curse.

missjo:
As stated above, this is simply a response to a topic I came across on the home page of this forum:
https://www.nairaland.com/5443357/allegory-garden-eden-account-fall

I normally do not concern myself with religious debates online or in real life conversations because it usually gets to the point where people leave the topic and try to silence me by making references to my personal choices.
However, on this, I choose to correct the pervasive thinking on that thread put forward by a user by the name Offpoint.


Below is an edited version of my response to him on the topic:

First of all, there is no sexual allegory to be seen in the story of the fall. None whatsoever.
Adam was present right there when the serpent was talking to Eve. The fruit is a very real fruit: There was a tree of life (for spiritual nourishment which could be eaten), there was also a tree of the knowledge of good and evil (not to be eaten). There were many other trees.
The emphasis on trees and fruits generally was because the first creation were all herbivores, no one ate meat not even the lions and tigers. If indeed sex is the fruit, how do we explain the fruit from the Tree of life which was also mentioned in the bible and which they were not forbidden to eat from?

Secondly, evil did not enter the world through Cain. At least not in the world as we know it now, because all of his descendants were killed by the flood. The only surviving people after the flood were Noah and his family. Noah himself is a direct descendant of Seth, the son born to Adam after Abel was killed.
Evil came into the world again after the flood through the descendants of Ham, Ham is Noah's second son between Shem and Japheth. Apparently, Noah had gotten drunk with wine and was unclothed. Ham saw his unclothedness and announced it to his siblings.
His brothers went into the tent and covered him up by carrying a cloth but walking backwards to avoid seeing their father's unclothedness.
Noah then cursed Ham and his descendants for that error.
The next time the bible mentions people who did evil in the sight of God was in the story of the tower of Babel. These people tried to build a monument towards the sky in an attempt to defy God, these people are descendants of Ham.

Lastly and about the missing books of the bible we know today.
The people who removed the books from the bible were translators because the Jewish council of Rabbis who first convened to put the complete scrolls together in what you now call the Bible refer to those missing books as UNINSPIRED works. Uninspired means they were not written through revelations, visions, or dreams from God but through the writers own will. If you have read any of these books, you would notice a subjective theme from the writer's point of view missing in most of the other books left in the bible today.
This does not mean the books are demonic or seek to distort the Christian's attitude towards God.

As at the time the Bible was being translated, the translators themselves began removing these books based off their own personal decision.
There are still Bibles with the complete books, no single book missing from them, but you have to go back to translations that were released before 1560 which is when the Geneva bible was produced. This is the first time it was divided into chapters and verses and arguably the first time The Apocrypha (Uninspired writings) were removed.



That will be all for now.

Nice write up........ i love the first paragraph about the Adam and Sex and the Fall...... good explanation.

AristocraticMe:
Nice write up........ i love the first paragraph about the Adam and Sex and the Fall...... good explanation.

Thanks

Kobojunkie:
I don't believe it was the curse that did it. Given that other cities were also impacted in a similar manner, I don't believe it was the curse.

Joshua 6:26
Joshua had an oath pronounced at that particular time, saying: ‘Cursed may the man be before God who gets up and does build this city, even Jericho. At the forfeit of his firstborn let him lay the foundation of it, and at the forfeit of his youngest let him put up its doors.

Now about 500 years later in the book of
1 Kings 16:34
In [King Ahab’s] days, Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho. At the forfeit of Abiram his firstborn he laid the foundation of it, and at the forfeit of Segub his youngest he put up its doors, according to God’s word that he spoke by means of Joshua the son of Nun.


Do you see any similarities?

missjo:
Joshua 6:26
Joshua had an oath pronounced at that particular time, saying: ‘Cursed may the man be before God who gets up and does build this city, even Jericho. At the forfeit of his firstborn let him lay the foundation of it, and at the forfeit of his youngest let him put up its doors.

Now about 500 years later in the book of
1 Kings 16:34
In [King Ahab’s] days, Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho. At the forfeit of Abiram his firstborn he laid the foundation of it, and at the forfeit of Segub his youngest he put up its doors, according to God’s word that he spoke by means of Joshua the son of Nun.


Do you see any similarities?

I see the similarities in this particular story. I confess I didn't really have the story fresh in my mind until you posted it.

I also see something else! According to the story, the curse that Joshua laid was not in fact his, but God's, to begin with.

1 King 16 vs 15 (ESV)
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15. In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho. He laid its foundation at the cost of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.

And this example also shows that indeed the power to curse does not belong to man, but to God. He is able to speak curses, just as He did numerous times, through His prophets but man is not able to lay a curse on another man of his own will or some personal grudge.

But this has been informative. I should probably go brush up on my old testament reading since I have not done so in years.

Kobojunkie:
I see the similarities in this particular story. I confess I didn't really have the story fresh in my mind until you posted it.

I also see something else! According to the story, the curse that Joshua laid was not in fact his, but God's, to begin with.

And this example also shows that indeed the power to curse does not belong to man, but to God. He is able to speak curses, just as He did numerous times, through His prophets but man is not able to lay a curse on another man of his own will or some personal grudge.

But this has been informative. I should probably go brush up on my old testament reading since I have not done so in years.

Lol, God did not tell Joshua to lay the curse, same way he did not tell Noah to lay his. At least we were not informed of this before they proclaimed their curses.
These men were in direct communication with God, they were holy and forthright, and so their curses could very well be validated by God after/as soon as/in the instant it was proclaimed.

The writer of 1kings 16:34 however (said to be Jeremiah), was wise to make this inclusion (according to the word of the lord) because as a prophet himself, he recognized that Joshua must have had a special privilege to proclaim blesses or curses because of the preexisting power of God in him, not particularly from requesting permission from God.
The best way I can explain this is that Noah and Joshua were already living in God's perfect will and as such, their steps, their words, and their actions, were within the latitude of the working of the holy spirit. Selfishness or personal grudge was not their motivation.


There's the example of Elijah who left his cloak (filled with God's power) for Elisha after he asked for a double portion of his master's annointing. This was a blessing, but it was never written that God told Elijah to bestow his power on Elisha.
Summary - Elijah's will, but validated by God.


It's been nice chatting with you as well

Kobojunkie:
Ok.
But I still don't believe that man has the ability to curse or bless that which he cannot create. I believe that power belongs to the Almighty and Him alone.

Might that be because you do not bother to see when you bless or curse that which you have not created, or you don't know that you bless?

It's either one or the other or the third option.

budaatum:
Might that be because you do not bother to see when you bless or curse that which you have not created, or you don't know that you bless?

It's either one or the other or the third option.

LOL ... I believe blessings and curses go beyond our use of the words in today's lingo.
I believe we use those words erroneously when we pretend it means the same as making someone feel good or when referring to answers/responses to one's requests or hearts desires. When I talk of blessings and curses, I am talking of raw power that can reroute the path/destiny of life.

missjo:

Lol, God did not tell Joshua to lay the curse, same way he did not tell Noah to lay his. At least we were not informed of this before they proclaimed their curses.

Actually, according to Joshua's own words, God had something to do with it.

Joshua 6 vs 25 (ERV)
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26. At that time Joshua made this important promise. He said, “Whoever rebuilds Jericho will be in danger from the Lord. When he lays the foundation, he will lose his oldest son. When he sets up the gates, he will lose his youngest son.”[a]

Something Noah never said when He cursed his grandson.

missjo:
These men were in direct communication with God, they were holy and forthright, and so their curses could very well be validated by God after/as soon as/in the instant it was proclaimed.

Being in communication with God does not automagically give one power to do as one chooses. It has to be according to the Will of God, or else, nothing.

missjo:
The writer of 1kings 16:34 however (said to be Jeremiah), was wise to make this inclusion (according to the word of the lord) because as a prophet himself, he recognized that Joshua must have had a special privilege to proclaim blesses or curses because of the preexisting power of God in him, not particularly from requesting permission from God.

So you are saying "Jeremiah" made it up?
I don't believe He would have stated it so if it wasn't so. For you see, God's prophets are not meant to lie, even on behalf of God Himself!

missjo:
The best way I can explain this is that Noah and Joshua were already living in God's perfect will and as such, their steps, their words, and their actions, were within the latitude of the working of the holy spirit. Selfishness or personal grudge was not their motivation.

What Ham did was no sin. What Noah did was not right at all. And what eventually happened had nothing to do with Noah's curse but God's command and Will, as is documented.

missjo:
There's the example of Elijah who left his cloak (filled with God's power) for Elisha after he asked for a double portion of his master's annointing. This was a blessing, but it was never written that God told Elijah to bestow his power on Elisha.
Summary - Elijah's will, but validated by God. It's been nice chatting with you as well

What actual proof is there that Elisha did indeed get a "double portion" of Elijah's anointing?

missjo:
It's been nice chatting with you as well

Oh, I am still here!

Kobojunkie:

LOL ... I believe blessings and curses go beyond our use of the words in today's lingo.
I believe we use those words erroneously when we pretend it means the same as making someone feel good or when referring to answers/responses to one's requests or hearts desires. When I talk of blessings and curses, I am talking of raw power that can reroute the path/destiny of life.

It is option 2. Please stop believing. It is much better to use ones own eye to see what is before one than letting the mind contort what the eye sees into what it believes it ought to see.

When I too talk of blessings and curses, I am talking of raw power that can reroute the path/destiny of life.

I have shown you an example. In proper fashion, [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A16&version=NKJV]your light shines and glorifies your Father in heaven[/url].

budaatum:
It is option 2. Please stop believing. It is much better to use ones own eye to see what is before one than letting the mind contort what the eye sees into what it believes it ought to see.
When I too talk of blessings and curses, I am talking of raw power that can reroute the path/destiny of life.
I have shown you an example. In proper fashion, [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A16&version=NKJV]your light shines and glorifies your Father in heaven[/url].

Sure, for those who are indeed walking in agreement with the Will of God. And this is of course not the case in all men, even for those who are born of the Spirit of God! Paul spoke of this being the case in Romans 8, something I have come to learn to be true.

I point to the case of Ananias and Saphira. I believe that they were both indeed born again, as in born of the Spirit of God, but instead of obeying the Will of God, decided instead to submit still to the greed that still lay in their hearts, leading them to blaspheme against the Spirit of God and meeting the end that is laid out for such kind.

I had originally thought that by becoming born of the Spirit, I would automagically lose myself and become a robot/zombie for God, and I expected that too. But it turns out it is a walk that requires we continually make the decision to err on the side of God(trust God) every moment of every day.

Kobojunkie:
Sure, for those who are indeed walking in agreement with the Will of God. And this is of course not the case in all men, even for those who are born of the Spirit of God! Paul spoke of this being the case in Romans 8, something I have come to learn to be true.

I point to the case of Ananias and Saphira. I believe that they were both indeed born again, as in born of the Spirit of God, but instead of obeying the Will of God, decided instead to submit still to the greed that still lay in their hearts, leading them to blaspheme against the Spirit of God and meeting the end that is laid out for such kind.

I had originally thought that by becoming born of the Spirit, I would automagically lose myself and become a robot/zombie for God, and I expected that too. But it turns out it is a walk that requires we continually make the decision to err on the side of God(trust God) every moment of every day.

I'm certain you know I talk of Kobojunkie and not of "all men". For not "all men" can "automagically lose myself and become a robot/zombie for God" because the faith required is too immense for most "men".

Kobojunkie:
Sure, for those who are indeed walking in agreement with the Will of God. And this is of course not the case in all men, even for those who are born of the Spirit of God! Paul spoke of this being the case in Romans 8, something I have come to learn to be true.

I point to the case of Ananias and Saphira. I believe that they were both indeed born again, as in born of the Spirit of God, but instead of obeying the Will of God, decided instead to submit still to the greed that still lay in their hearts, leading them to blaspheme against the Spirit of God and meeting the end that is laid out for such kind.

I had originally thought that by becoming born of the Spirit, I would automagically lose myself and become a robot/zombie for God, and I expected that too. But it turns out it is a walk that requires we continually make the decision to err on the side of God(trust God) every moment of every day.

Kobojunkie is now born again... Wow

Ishilove:
Kobojunkie is now born again... Wow

OMG! They found me out in my hideout ooo!!

budaatum:

I'm certain you know I talk of Kobojunkie and not of "all men". For not "all men" can "automagically lose myself and become a robot/zombie for God" because the faith required is too immense for most "men".

Kobojunkie:
Actually, according to Joshua's own words, God had something to do with it.

Something Noah never said when He cursed his grandson.
Being in communication with God does not automagically give one power to do as one chooses. It has to be according to the Will of God, or else, nothing.

So you are saying "Jeremiah" made it up?
I don't believe He would have stated it so if it wasn't so. For you see, God's prophets are not meant to lie, even on behalf of God Himself!
What Ham did was no sin. What Noah did was not right at all. And what eventually happened had nothing to do with Noah's curse but God's command and Will, as is documented.
What actual proof is there that Elisha did indeed get a "double portion" of Elijah's anointing?
Oh, I am still here!

Nope, Jeremiah didn't make anything up. I specifically noted that he was 'wise' to have noted that part, especially when you consider that the person he was writing about lived hundreds of years before him.

We've moved past Noah and Ham. You simply don't want to believe that some events in the bible were a fulfillment of previous blessings/curses, lol.

Proof that Elisha got a double portion? Well if we are to be literal, Elisha did perform more miracles than his master before him. The Bible records eight for Elijah and double that amount for Elisha.
Figuratively however, the term "double portion" in Jewish culture refers to the blessing of the firstborn. Elisha was not a prophet, he was more like an underling to Elijah. There were higher prophets in Israel that could very well have taken over the exalted post held by Elijah, but by granting the request of Elisha and leaving his cloak to him, he effectively promoted him above all other prophets in Israel and made him his heir/firstborn.

Elisha became the head of the school of Prophets both in his resident northern kingdom and the southern kingdom of Israel after Elijah's passing, something which Elijah himself didn't quite accomplish because he was the quiet loner type, never really involving himself in politics.
So while we can view the double portion as figurative, it is also very literal seeing that every specific miracle which Elijah performed, Elisha also did some but in a much greater magnitude than his predecessor. Not forgetting also the doubling in number when counting the miracles of both prophets.