I believe you guys are quite intelligent and good analytical thinkers, now I have some questions for you. if you answer at least convincingly, then I will throw out more challenging questions.
1. Look at the design of a watch, it's purpose is to tell time but every part of the watch was intelligently chosen to serve it's very purpose, the springs, rotor, hands, case etc...Each very part carefully chosen, even the material science behind the watch is so brilliant. This definitely did not come by accident but by intelligent beings "humans". same goes to more complex designs such as cars, aircrafts, washing machines, computers, etc everything were created for purposes from the simplest of its various parts performing various functions brought together to achieve a machine to perform it's specific purpose.
...........

Now let's consider the tiny creatures like an ant can therefore be said to be carefully design with its various internal organs, external features, abdomen, head, legs etc all well designed and fitted to perform different functions, now a more complex being like humans, with digestive system, reproductive system, respiratory etc . Dear aethist could this have been an accident or coincidence...?

Man thus live on earth, provided with water, oxygen, land to live on, food to feed, sunlight etc. even the gravitational pull on man is just exactly the sufficient force required. could all these have been mere coincidence or an accident?
.....


.....


sonoflucifer coolusername johnydon22 etc

The question always boils down to "Which intelligent being?" If you can't accurately figure out which intelligent being[god(s)] did this then you are no different from atheist. You believe your god design all this and you end up worshipping him for that, what if it turns out to be the Chinese or India gods doings? You will burn in hell along with the atheist you are trying to convince. You see we are all atheist, A Muslim is an Atheist to a Christian and verse versa. Even your denominations, Catholics, Pentecostal, Shi'ites, Sunnis etc are all atheists to one another.

Now back to your question, Have you ever seen a mushroom grow on a old damp wood, or your Yam or Ginger growing in your store? Do you see that happen all the times? It happens only when the condition is right. Just the right amount of dampness, Just the right amount of heat, Humidity, Sunlight etc? Now imagine the earth is that mushroom, Ginger, or yam that happens to find it self in the right condition with the moon, the sun and planets all align in the solar system perfectly playing their part. Surely life will spring up! You know how infinite the universe is, with billions of stars and suns and planets etc. Do you think they don't exist such a perfect condition like our solar system? If they exist such a perfect condition like our solar system elsewhere in the universe surely life will also spring up...And they could be thousands or even millions of such kind of occurrence considering the vastness of our universe.

I will pick science over religion anytime, any day. At least they don't claim to know everything unlike religion. Scientists even challenge they previous theories, With time a conclusion would be reached about the nature and origin of our universe. Religion gives you a 2000 year old book written by bearded old men then tell you everything there is true and you must worship their god or you will burn in hell. Even if the earth was indeed created by an intelligent being why must He/she/it be worshipped?

realmindz:
I believe you guys are quite intelligent and good analytical thinkers, now I have some questions for you. if you answer at least convincingly, then I will throw out more challenging questions.
1. Look at the design of a watch, it's purpose is to tell time but every part of the watch was intelligently chosen to serve it's very purpose, the springs, rotor, hands, case etc...Each very part carefully chosen, even the material science behind the watch is so brilliant. This definitely did not come by accident but by intelligent beings "humans". same goes to more complex designs such as cars, aircrafts, washing machines, computers, etc everything were created for purposes from the simplest of its various parts performing various functions brought together to achieve a machine to perform it's specific purpose.
...........

Now let's consider the tiny creatures like an ant can therefore be said to be carefully design with its various internal organs, external features, abdomen, head, legs etc all well designed and fitted to perform different functions, now a more complex being like humans, with digestive system, reproductive system, respiratory etc . Dear aethist could this have been an accident or coincidence...?

Man thus live on earth, provided with water, oxygen, land to live on, food to feed, sunlight etc. even the gravitational pull on man is just exactly the sufficient force required. could all these have been mere coincidence or an accident?
.....


.....


sonoflucifer coolusername johnydon22 etc

arguments with atheists won't do any good. Rather just pray for them. They'll keep arguing. It takes only God for them to change.

I appreciate your questions. Note that a lot of atheist have come across this question severally so it is nothing NEW and it is not much of a ‘Challenging Question’.
Back to your questions
1. WATCH: Even a Rolex watch is not perfect. And it is an invention that overlaps previous invention. He didn’t just sit down and INVENT Rolex. If we look at the history of time measurement we will see where it is coming from. Every new work is an update from the ‘’sundial’, ‘Oil Lamps’ ‘Candle Clocks’ ‘Sand glass’ etc. What am trying to say is that, it didn’t just start with springs, rotor, hands, case etc. Yes it was designed and invented by men.
2. Other inventions you mentioned can be related to the above. They are not perfect because man is not perfect. They didn’t just APPEAR because we can still reproduce them.
And I know where you are going to. Just remember that we will still get to the question, ‘Who then created the God that created us’ and then you will say ‘God doesn’t need a creator blah blah’
You will need to read up on ‘Abiogenesis’, ‘centripetal’ etc
For a more assistance, kindly read my article titled, 1 Steps To Convert An Atheist To A Christian' [http://gabrielobinna.com/11-steps-convert-atheist-christian/]1[/url]‘

Have you heard of the word "fine-tuning"?

Even those life forms you mentioned are very far from perfect. If any entity comes forward to tell me he created the ants, I will slap him in the face for making some many mistakes.

But since life forms fine-tuned themselves over billions of years on their own through blind natural selection, its understandable why they still have mistakes in design.

Idrismusty97:
The question always boils down to "Which intelligent being?" If you can't accurately figure out which intelligent being[god(s)] did this then you are no different from atheist. You believe your god design all this and you end up worshipping him for that, what if it turns out to be the Chinese or India gods doings? You will burn in hell along with the atheist you are trying to convince. You see we are all atheist, A Muslim is an Atheist to a Christian and verse versa. Even your denominations, Catholics, Pentecostal, Shi'ites, Sunnis etc are all atheists to one another.

Now back to your question, Have you ever seen a mushroom grow on a old damp wood, or your Yam or Ginger growing in your store? Do you see that happen all the times? It happens only when the condition is right. Just the right amount of dampness, Just the right amount of heat, Humidity, Sunlight etc? Now imagine the earth is that mushroom, Ginger, or yam that happens to find it self in the right condition with the moon, the sun and planets all align in the solar system perfectly playing their part. Surely life will spring up! You know how infinite the universe is, with billions of stars and suns and planets etc. Do you think they don't exist such a perfect condition like our solar system? If they exist such a perfect condition like our solar system elsewhere in the universe surely life will also spring up...And they could be thousands or even millions of such kind of occurrence considering the vastness of our universe.

I will pick science over religion anytime, any day. At least they don't claim to know everything unlike religion. Scientists even challenge they previous theories, With time a conclusion would be reached about the nature and origin of our universe. Religion gives you a 2000 year old book written by bearded old men then tell you everything there is true and you must worship their god or you will burn in hell. Even if the earth was indeed created by an intelligent being why must He/she/it be worshipped?

so man came into existence by chance, same with other living things? animals in male and female were by chances too?

mbatuku2:
Have you heard of the word "fine-tuning"?

Even those life forms you mentioned are very far from perfect. If any entity comes forward to tell me he created the ants, I will slap him in the face for making some many mistakes.

But since life forms fine-tuned themselves over billions of years on their own through blind natural selection, its understandable why they still have mistakes in design.

Couldn't say it anymore better. Any body that parades 'intelligent design' doesn't have knowledge of what happens in space or inside the human system. It is far from being perfect.

Ok good question by the way but let us first of all treat one misconception..

[b]Complexity does not connote design. . Just because a rolex watch is known to be designed doesn't not mean that other complex systems especially natural ones are designed too..

Now you mentioned how the Rolex watch is very precise and every parts and then pointed out parts for other complex biological entities like ants and humans to suggest design.

Remember that if complexity means something must be designed then anything intelligent enough to design the complex natural system must even be more complex than nature, doesn't this being require a thinking complex mind?

Humans designed a watch and we are far more complex than watches, so if you say something must have also designed humans that thing will be far more complex than humans. (You see the problem compounds rather but doesn't get solved)

Then if going by your question since a watch is designed, nature is complex then must be designed then this designer must be super-complex therefore doesn't this imply that this designer must need a designer too in order to exist?

Unless of course this designer is just a conscious intelligent nothingness which is just preposterous.

So if complexity of the universe makes you assume a designer then this extra-complex designer must also require another designer and a chain of infinite regress is achieved.

Now don't you see how it doesn't hold sway [/b]

Now in respect to your question, A rolex watch surely as we know didn't assemble itself, but nature is quite the reverse.

Nature doesn't require an assembly line, it is random and imprecise and these random manifestations leads to a pattern at a point.

Take for example Planetary Orbits - It will take a planetary body a long time of uncharted wobble or straight line travel before encountering a body of larger mass and therefore births an orbit from a wobbly effect of the initial direction and the new force (body of larger mass)

It was not a designed system but achieved stability from long time of instability while reacting to interacting values in the picture.

Now further more as we know before a Rolex watch to exist the materials needed for it are already existing, we didn't just speak them out from nothing..

Now here is the case where the universe is said to be initially not there, no material, no matter needed for a design and all of a sudden this designer designs something out of nothing?

That is not design rather abracadabra

For design to hold sway then matter and other materials must have always existed and if there always existed then we now see that there is no need for a magical word saying or vomit creating being.

(Remember too this being is complex and intelligent so must need to be designed)

How come there is design when there is nothing?

Isn't it an even bigger coincidence that you somehow got an eternally living perfectly intelligent and complex being (that somehow doesn't need to be designed) that has existed forever and somehow in that line of infinite loop suddenly decided to create everything and you.

-If you say nature is complex then needs to be designed at the same time assume up a designer who is supposed to be more complex than nature but claims this extra-complex designer does not also require design.. then totally that kills the whole "complexity connotes design" argument.

-Because since this complex entity does not need to be designed to achieve complexity that means something can be complex without being designed therefore nature can be very complex without being designed.

Natural manifestations are random and are not precise or planned but consistent interactions of conflicting values births results and the vastness of the cosmos makes the possibilities of it's manifestations limitless.

^ Nice points.

There is nothing more left to say.......except perhaps to add this : Design, really beautiful complex designs usually seem to be a work of creation......but it usually isn't really. Tell me, have you watched videos on crystal formation Anyone who watches the video without a basic knowledge on crystals and the like.....will be tempted, (real tempted) To believe in a designer.


And believe me, It ain't so.

Looking at the shallow arguments atheists have brought so far.

realmindz:

1. Look at the design of a watch, it's purpose is to tell time but every part of the watch was intelligently chosen to serve it's very purpose, the springs, rotor, hands, case etc...Each very part carefully chosen, even the material science behind the watch is so brilliant. This definitely did not come by accident but by intelligent beings "humans". same goes to more complex designs such as cars, aircrafts, washing machines, computers, etc everything were created for purposes from the simplest of its various parts performing various functions brought together to achieve a machine to perform it's specific purpose.

The watch analogy is flawed. This is because machines are not made from self-replicating material that is capable of mutation; thus, making them incapable of undergoing evolution.
Airplanes don't go through competition, or predation and therefore have no reason or means to adapt. How then can we use machines as a parallel to living organisms?

realmindz:

Now let's consider the tiny creatures like an ant can therefore be said to be carefully design with its various internal organs, external features, abdomen, head, legs etc all well designed and fitted to perform different functions, now a more complex being like humans, with digestive system, reproductive system, respiratory etc . Dear aethist could this have been an accident or coincidence...?

The short answer is yes. This is because, within a population, there would be competition. So, a beneficial trait caused by mutation has the tendency to snowball through natural selection. Furthermore, since irreducible complexity is a myth, (Lenski's experiment shows bacteria gaining a beneficial trait after two successive mutations) then the refinement of the complex processes of living organisms can be achieved through natural selection.

realmindz:

Man thus live on earth, provided with water, oxygen, land to live on, food to feed, sunlight etc. even the gravitational pull on man is just exactly the sufficient force required. could all these have been mere coincidence or an accident?

Man just happened to evolve in a world that contains water and land. Man is by no means the end product of evolution, but rather a single frame in the motion picture that is the Universe.

We are by no means perfect, or more advanced than other creatures: the cheetah is faster than us, a one-on-one fight between a human and a chimp would leave the human in a pile of blood, pain, and defeat.

Also, we can see that the world isn't exactly fine-tuned to human life. Over two-thirds of our planet is covered in water. Useless saltwater. Radiation from the sun causes skin cancer in caucasians. We lack the early warning system that a lot of animals seem to have when natural disasters are coming. Our sight is restricted to seven colours alone while some animals can see infrared or ultraviolet light. The list goes on and on..

Thanks to the responses..another question I would like to ask..

has anyone ever asked about the biological explanation of reproduction, the fertilisation of an egg by one sperm out of millions of other sperms; "what if I wasn't the sperm that fertilised that very egg and another one did, would I be in existence today?.....
cc all nairaland atheists, johnydon22 coolusername sonoflucifer etc

realmindz:

has anyone ever asked about the biological explanation of reproduction, the fertilisation of an egg by one sperm out of millions of other sperms; "what if I wasn't the sperm that fertilised that very egg and another one did, would I be in existence today?.....

Somewhere in the south of China, in a remote village, is a place where humans live. In this strange place, there are a million conversations being held over dinner. You do not exist to them, They will never know you. You may never know them. What is existence if it can't be shared?

sonOfLucifer:

Somewhere in the south of China, in a remote village, is a place where humans live. In this strange place, there are a million conversations being held over dinner. You do not exist to them, They will never know you. You may never know them. What is existence if it can't be shared?

chai, oga sir..I knw say your own na brutality but abeg take am easy with me, I knw too hear English like that, pls break it down so my lowly mind can comprehend..
simply answer the question, would u ve been in existence today if you as that very sperm did not fertilise that very egg

realmindz:
Thanks to the responses..another question I would like to ask..

has anyone ever asked about the biological explanation of reproduction, the fertilisation of an egg by one sperm out of millions of other sperms; "what if I wasn't the sperm that fertilised that very egg and another one did, would I be in existence today?.....
cc all nairaland atheists, johnydon22 coolusername sonoflucifer etc

This my brother is a remarkable pointer to how rare a chance life is and i means extremely rare.

Your question above is a good one and the answer is not far from what you probably had in mind before asking.

During conception no less than 2million sperm cells are injected all vying to fertilize one ovum.

Each SPERM cell has a unique chromosome with unique deoxiribonucleic information ..

If another sperm had fertilized the egg the result would have been a different individual and you would not have existed at all.

the result could have been even a girl if an (X) chromosome fertilized the ovum rather..

so each sperm cell would have resulted to a different individual...

If the ovum cell was different the result would have been totally different too even if the sperm remains same.

So that is a very stupendous brain quaking FACT ... that you are here is a pointer that 2million others are not.

It was a slim probability and you are the lucky one.. Enjoy the rare one chance you've got

realmindz:

chai, oga sir..I knw say your own na brutality but abeg take am easy with me, I knw too hear English like that, pls break it down so my lowly mind can comprehend..
simply answer the question, would u ve been in existence today if you as that very sperm did not fertilise that very egg

Lol. Sorry.

I wouldn't exist. I won the lottery.

interesting thread here, it is encouraging to see that thinkers exist among the black race...nice questions and responses..if only more blacks could think, Africa would be a better place, lalasticlala ishilove, I think this is a nice thread

realmindz:

chai, oga sir..I knw say your own na brutality but abeg take am easy with me, I knw too hear English like that, pls break it down so my lowly mind can comprehend..
simply answer the question, would u ve been in existence today if you as that very sperm did not fertilise that very egg

You are not the sperm not at all rather YOU are a result of the shared information between that Particular sperm cell and Ovum

If the Ovum that was fertilized was changed the result would have been totally different individual

Finally the party is here .

CoolUsername:


The watch analogy is flawed. This is because machines are not made from self-replicating material that is capable of mutation; thus, making them incapable of undergoing evolution.
Airplanes don't go through competition, or predation and therefore have no reason or means to adapt. How then can we use machines as a parallel to living organisms?



The short answer is yes. This is because, within a population, there would be competition. So, a beneficial trait caused by mutation has the tendency to snowball through natural selection. Furthermore, since irreducible complexity is a myth, (Lenski's experiment shows bacteria gaining a beneficial trait after two successive mutations) then the refinement of the complex processes of living organisms can be achieved through natural selection.



Man just happened to evolve in a world that contains water and land. Man is by no means the end product of evolution, but rather a single frame in the motion picture that is the Universe.

We are by no means perfect, or more advanced than other creatures: the cheetah is faster than us, a one-on-one fight between a human and a chimp would leave the human in a pile of blood, pain, and defeat.

Also, we can see that the world isn't exactly fine-tuned to human life. Over two-thirds of our planet is covered in water. Useless saltwater. Radiation from the sun causes skin cancer in caucasians. We lack the early warning system that a lot of animals seem to have when natural disasters are coming. Our sight is restricted to seven colours alone while some animals can see infrared or ultraviolet light. The list goes on and on..

Hey bro . Aint we going to evolve wings yet . Can't nature see that there are exiguous amounts of airports compared to the population of man .

GabrielObinna4:


Couldn't say it anymore better. Any body that parades 'intelligent design' doesn't have knowledge of what happens in space or inside the human system. It is far from being perfect.

1. You are not a doctor or an astronomer/cosmologist . But we have Christians who are those and appreciate how these disparate systems function . cc : Joshthefirst and KoloOyinbo

2. This universe and our physical bodies will pass away anyway , according to the bible .

3. Reply this post if you can bring forth something from nothing and create life forms and solar systems from it .

johnydon22:


You are not the sperm not at all rather YOU are a result of the shared information between that Particular sperm cell and Ovum

If the Ovum that was fertilized was changed the result would have been totally different individual

science gave the physical explanation of a being, to explain the formation of the physical body, features, attributes, genes, skin colour, height, hereditary, sex, even disabilities...what of the consciousness? could it ve been another chance?

realmindz:

science gave the physical explanation of a being, to explain the formation of the physical body, features, attributes, genes, skin colour, height, hereditary, sex, even disabilities...what of the consciousness? could it ve been another chance?

Like i said above.. If the sperm cell and ovum were different then the individual would have been a different person from you therefore a different conscious entity.

so how can consciousness be different from the information interacting to form that entity since different information will produce a distinct consciousness/entity..

Means that your particular consciousness is directly a result of that same information just like every other natural feature you listed up there..

Check this thread https://www.nairaland.com/3048705/universe-purely-material-physical

Consciousness was discussed.

KingEbukasBlog:


Hey bro . Aint we going to evolve wings yet . Can't nature see that there are exiguous amounts of airports compared to the population of man .

-_____-

sonOfLucifer:
Lol. Sorry.
I wouldn't exist. I won the lottery.

so your existence is jst by chance, then for what purpose do u live

CoolUsername:


-_____-

Has to be a troll. No one can be so deliberately stupid even if they tried.

realmindz:

science gave the physical explanation of a being, to explain the formation of the physical body, features, attributes, genes, skin colour, height, hereditary, sex, even disabilities...what of the consciousness? could it ve been another chance?

There you go bro . Every single thing we have in life was gotten by chance - a belief by the ignorant atheist despite the mathematical impossibility .

Is there anything worse than atheism

CoolUsername:


-_____-

Is that the answer to his question ? Or is this a new evasion tactic we are oblivious to

realmindz:

science gave the physical explanation of a being, to explain the formation of the physical body, features, attributes, genes, skin colour, height, hereditary, sex, even disabilities...what of the consciousness? could it ve been another chance?

@jonydon22

I think you missed above question.

First of all, (1). where did consciousness come from?.

(2). How did a body know it needed consciousness?. (3). And how did consciousness know it needed a body?

@realmindz

Don't allow anybody fool you. All the people that invented science believed in God- Isaac Newton, Galileo, Pythagoras, e.t.c.

However, God is not exactly the bible or Koran or Torah God.

KingEbukaNaija:


Is that the answer to his question ? Or is this a new evasion tactic we are oblivious to

He is just speechless.

Maybe evolution has stoped or nature is currently sleeping.

If and only if I will be confused that there is no God, it will require a living entity like God and not a non living entity like Nature.

Once again, has evolution stoped?