The idea of freewill is that one is free to choose from a number of available choices. This can be done without anybody looking over your shoulder and egging you on to any particular choice, you just need to consider the options and make the choice you find suitable. However in religion it seems temptation is essential, I find that puzzling.

Why is it essential for anyone to attempt to influence my choices?

Can the choices not be presented and humans allowed to make one?

Why was it essential to have Satan free access to influence Adam and Eve's choices?

Why is it essential to maintain the presence of an external influencing agent?

Is the outcome designed to be skewed towards failure?

LordReed:

Why is it essential for anyone to attempt to influence my choices?

Not "anyone" alone, my Lord, but oneself, and anything too, and not necessarily "essential", though first let me say it annoys me when very intelligent you deliberately sets up straw!

"Anyone" or anything may wish to lead one astray, one may even lead oneself astray, but ones freewill ensures one is responsible for going astray or not, and being knowledgeable (in religionese, "having Jesus in one's life" ), might help one make the right choice. There is a reason after all that the Word was in the beginning and all things are created through and by it, and one should best be advised to learn from it and get wisdom.

LordReed:
Can the choices not be presented and humans allowed to make one?

The choices are always presented and humans alway chose but the ignorant see not what is before them, or care not or know not which to choose my Lord, so we advice they learn the Word and get understanding and be set free.

LordReed:
Why was it essential to have Satan free access to influence Adam and Eve's choices?

I need you to go put on your atheist hat my Lord, this question is atheistically ignorant!

Perhaps start it with "why is it written that satan had free access...." , but first ask "what is meant by satan".

LordReed:
Why is it essential to maintain the presence of an external influencing agent?

Who says it is "essential to maintain the presence of an external influencing agent"? Did the "external influencing agent" make me stupid and incapable of using my freewill to resist temptation? Have you not heard of the internal influencing agent called the Holy Spirit and the Comforter? If not then perhaps increase your knowledge of the Kingdom of God so satan can depart from you!

Those internally filled with the Spirit of God do not stumble my Lord.

LordReed:
Is the outcome designed to be skewed towards failure?

Is it God's intention that I go to hell, or do I chose to go to hell with my own freewill my Lord?

My apologies for derailing your straw my Lord.

budaatum:

Not "anyone" alone, my Lord, but oneself, and anything too, and not necessarily "essential", though first let me say it annoys me when very intelligent you deliberately sets up straw!

"Anyone" or anything may wish to lead one astray, one may even lead oneself astray, but ones freewill ensures one is responsible for going astray or not, and being knowledgeable (in religionese, "having Jesus in one's life" ), might help one make the right choice. There is a reason after all that the Word was in the beginning and all things are created through and by it, and one should best be advised to learn from it and get wisdom.


The choices are always presented and humans alway chose but the ignorant see not what is before them, or care not or know not which to choose my Lord, so we advice they learn the Word and get understanding and be set free.


I need you to go put on your atheist hat my Lord, this question is atheistically ignorant!

Perhaps start it with "why is it written that satan had free access...." , but first ask "what is meant by satan".


Who says it is "essential to maintain the presence of an external influencing agent"? Did the "external influencing agent" make me stupid and incapable of using my freewill to resist temptation? Have you not heard of the internal influencing agent called the Holy Spirit and the Comforter? If not then perhaps increase your knowledge of the Kingdom of God so satan can depart from you!

Those internally filled with the Spirit of God do not stumble my Lord.


Is it God's intention that I go to hell, or do I chose to go to hell with my own freewill my Lord?

My apologies for derailing your straw my Lord.

The only thing I can say to you my dear buda is I am ignorant that is why I ask questions.

LordReed:


The only thing I can say to you my dear buda is I am ignorant that is why I ask questions.

I don't agree that you are ignorant my Lord.
You are not ignorant at all.

LordReed:
The idea of freewill is that one is free to choose from a number of available choices. This can be done without anybody looking over your shoulder and egging you on to any particular choice, you just need to consider the options and make the choice you find suitable. However in religion it seems temptation is essential, I find that puzzling.

Why is it essential for anyone to attempt to influence my choices?

Can the choices not be presented and humans allowed to make one?

Why was it essential to have Satan free access to influence Adam and Eve's choices?

Why is it essential to maintain the presence of an external influencing agent?

Is the outcome designed to be skewed towards failure?

Hello.

Satan had no one to tempt him to sin, but we know that he did. So, it depends on the subject.

Satan was the wisest of the angels. In fact, the Bible refers to him as the standard of perfection in the first universe. As such, he was the one best positioned to understand the workings of the universe. That wisdom was corrupted by him through arrogance in the birth of his ambition to take God's Throne.

The rest of the rebellious angels entered rebellion in response to Satan's campaigning. So did man.

Why is a tempter necessary? Because those who have a free will must have the opportunity to exercise it. Satan was smart enough to need no one to tempt him into sin, but the rest of the creatures who possess the Image of God may never have either conceived of any alternative to serving the Lord loyally or dared to seek such an alternative. With Satan's involvement, such an alternative becomes very apparent, and those who would pursue it can find the courage to do so.

You seem to confuse a tempter for temptation, because temptation is an integral part of the exercise of freewill, with or without a tempter.

And without temptation there wouldn't be a tempter, because a tempter needs temptation to exist and to be able to function, for a tempter only comes to make temptation more tempting.

Freewill is the right for man to freely choose from a number of options, especially two, namely good and evil, but either of them comes with its own consequences.

So temptation is an inclination to yet chose something bad and evil, despite the fact that the consequences which follows such a choice are not good.

Thanks.

budaatum:

I don't agree that you are ignorant my Lord.
You are not ignorant at all.

You are too kind my dear buda.

jesusjnr:
You seem to confuse a tempter for temptation, because temptation is an integral part of the exercise of freewill, with or without a tempter.

And without temptation there wouldn't be a tempter, because a tempter needs temptation to exist and to be able to function, for a tempter only comes to make temptation more tempting.

Freewill is the right for man to freely choose from a number of options, especially two, namely good and evil, but either of them comes with its own consequences.

So temptation is an inclination to yet chose something bad and evil, despite the fact that the consequences which follows such a choice are not good.

Thanks.

Would Adam and Eve have eaten the fruit if Satan had not tempted them?

LordReed:


Would Adam and Eve have eaten the fruit if Satan had not tempted them?

No man knows for sure since they only ate it after the tempter came, but the chances are that they wouldn't have.

However the fact that the tempter had succeeded in making them eat the fruit shows that the temptation to eat the fruit was already there, but that it was only made more tempting by the tempter to the extent of convincing them to take that bite.

But if they hadn't eaten the fruit irrespective of the temptation of the tempter, they would have passed the test and graduated to the level of being overcomers of the temptation and hence the tempter. #Jesus

That's the purpose of the tempter.

jesusjnr:
No man knows for sure since they only ate it after the tempter came, but the chances are that they wouldn't have.

However the fact that the tempter had succeeded in making them eat the fruit shows that the temptation to eat the fruit was already there, but that it was only made more tempting by the tempter to the extent of convincing them to take that bite.

But if they hadn't eaten the fruit irrespective of the temptation of the tempter, they would have passed the test and graduated to the level of being overcomers of the temptation and hence the tempter. #Jesus

That's the purpose of the tempter.

Good, if you allow for the possibility that they could have still eaten the fruit then it means the tempter was not required for anything.

jesusjnr:
No man knows for sure since they only ate it after the tempter came, but the chances are that they wouldn't have.

However the fact that the tempter had succeeded in making them eat the fruit shows that the temptation to eat the fruit was already there, but that it was only made more tempting by the tempter to the extent of convincing them to take that bite.

But if they hadn't eaten the fruit irrespective of the temptation of the tempter, they would have passed the test and graduated to the level of being overcomers of the temptation and hence the tempter. #Jesus

That's the purpose of the tempter.

So the tempter only confirmed the intention to eat from the fruit and this intention had always been in their mind before the temper?

LordReed:


Good, if you allow for the possibility that they could have still eating the fruit then it means the tempter was not required for anything.

Maybe the possibility that you have knowledge because you've been taught, means you don't need exams to graduate to the next class.

jesusjnr:
Maybe the possibility that you have knowledge because you've been taught, means you don't need exams to graduate to the next class.

You are confusing the test with the tempter. The test was to eat the fruit or not, what has the tempter got to do with it? Have you ever written an exam where someone was allowed into the hall to deceive you about the answers?

LordReed:


You are confusing the test with the tempter. The test was to eat the fruit or not, what has the tempter got to do with it? Have you ever written an exam where someone was allowed into the hall to deceive you about the answers?

No you are confusing the teaching/instruction with the test.

Before you write a test or an exam you have been taught right? So what's the use of the test or exam?

It is to confirm that you have learnt what you've been taught, so as to qualify you for the next class. Besides it's just an illustration of the role of the tempter so don't take it literally.

You can choose not to learn/follow what you've been taught or not without the test, but the test or exam is meant to confirm that.

That's what the tempter has got to do with that.

jesusjnr:


No you are confusing the teaching/instruction with the test.

Before you write a test or an exam you have been taught right? So what's the use of the test or exam?

It is to confirm that you have learnt what you've been taught, so as to qualify you for the next class. Besides it's just an illustration of the role of the tempter so don't take it literally.

You can choose not to learn/follow what you've been taught or not without the test, but the test or exam is meant to confirm that.

That's what the tempter has got to do with that.

Oga, you don't have someone attempting to deceive you in a test. Check Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac, there was no tempter there because it was a test. Neither was there a tempter when Jehovah asked him to move from his father's house. Jesus on the other hand had the tempter come to attempt to influence him. Don't confuse yourself.

LordReed:


Oga, you don't have someone attempting to deceive you in a test. Check Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac, there was no tempter there because it was a test. Neither was there a tempter when Jehovah asked him to move from his father's house. Jesus on the other hand had the tempter come to attempt to influence him. Don't confuse yourself.

Lol!

You don't even know that you are the one confused to think that all tests must be similar in nature, not knowing that tests comes depending on the Examiner, and the purpose of the test.

For that's what you've just done giving different tests given for specific purposes by the same Examiner to different persons at different times.

You forgot to even add the test He gave to Job?

If you go and read what happened on that occasion and are able to understand it, you'd understand the need for that test.

And thereby know that your assumption that it is being skewed towards failure just because Adam and Even failed the test is erroneous.

I know that the result of that test has had significantly impacted on the outcome of the other tests which the Examiner had given to their descendants, but that doesn't mean that it was designed to achieve that result, for the same thing would have happened if the reverse was the case and they had passed the test.

jesusjnr:
Lol!

You don't even know that you are the one confused to think that all tests must be similar in nature, not knowing that tests comes depending on the Examiner, and the purpose of the test.

For that's what you've just done giving different tests given for specific purposes by the same Examiner to different persons at different times.

You forgot to even add the test He gave to Job?

If you go and read what happened on that occasion and are able to understand it, you'd understand the need for that test.

And thereby know that your assumption that it is being skewed towards failure just because Adam and Even failed the test is erroneous.

I know that the result of that test has had significantly impacted on the outcome of the other tests which the Examiner had given to their descendants, but that doesn't mean that it was designed to achieve that result, for the same thing would have happened if the reverse was the case and they had passed the test.

So the implication is a tempter is essential to your god's plan.

LordReed:


So the implication is a tempter is essential to your god's plan.

I wouldn't say so, but certainly the overcoming of temptations, and passing the test of His Word and Instructions He gave to them, for that where the tempter could be very useful.

So depending on the kind of test, the Examiner may involve the tempter who is the devil, but there are occasions where He doesn't as it that instance of Abraham concerning Isaac.

The purpose of Examiner's tests or temptations is never for any man to fail or fall into them, but for him to pass it and thereby become an overcomer and walk in the victory of it.

I wish Adam and Eve had not failed but passed the test as Jesus and some others had done, by now it would have been easy for you to see that it was never intended for evil but for good.

But unfortunately they didn't, so here we are.

jesusjnr:
I wouldn't say so, but certainly the overcoming of temptations, and passing the test of His Word and Instructions He gave to them, for that where the tempter could be very useful.

So depending on the kind of test, the Examiner may involve the tempter who is the devil, but there are occasions where He doesn't as it that instance of Abraham concerning Isaac.

The purpose of Examiner's tests or temptations is never for any man to fail or fall into them, but for him to pass it and thereby become an overcomer and walk in the victory of it.

I wish Adam and Eve had not failed but passed the test as Jesus and some others had done, by now it would have been easy for you to see that it was never intended for evil but for good.

But unfortunately they didn't, so here we are.

If you can have the test without the tempter then what is the use of having one?

LordReed:


If you can have the test without the tempter then what is the use of having one?

Some tests cannot be had without the tempter, because the purpose of such tests is to overcome the tempter.

And the tempter only comes to make man not keep or follow the Instructions or Teachings he was given by God.

So if man is able to overcome the tempter in spite of whatever he devices to that extent, then man has passed the test.

jesusjnr:
Some tests cannot be had without the tempter, because the purpose of such tests is to overcome the tempter.

And the tempter only comes to make man not keep or follow the Instructions or Teachings he was given by God.

So if man is able to overcome the tempter in spite of whatever he devices to that extent, then man has passed the test.

If the test cannot be done without the tempter then the tempter is essential.

LordReed:


If the test cannot be done without the tempter then the tempter is essential.

The test is essential, not necessarily the tempter for I already made a point of instances where the test doesn't require the tempter, as in that of Abraham concerning his son Isaac.

But usually the tempter is involved because of the nature of the test requires his involvement.

Besides, the tempter has a huge stake in the results of the test as could be observed in the instance of Job, so even when he's not directly in the test, he is always interested in the result of the test.

jesusjnr:
The test is essential, not necessarily the tempter for I already made a point of instances where the test doesn't require the tempter, as in that of Abraham concerning his son Isaac.

But usually the tempter is involved because of the nature of the test requires his involvement.

Besides, the tempter has a huge stake in the results of the test as could be observed in the instance of Job, so even when he's not directly in the test, he is always interested in the result of the test.

You said:

jesusjnr:
Some tests cannot be had without the tempter,

How else are we suppose to interpret your statement?

LordReed:


You said:



How else are we suppose to interpret your statement?

Some tests Lordreed, not all tests. In fact most tests.

It all depends on the kind of test.

jesusjnr:
Some tests Lordreed, not all tests. In fact most tests.

It all depends on the kind of test.

And those tests must be given correct?

jesusjnr:
Lol!

You don't even know that you are the one confused to think that all tests must be similar in nature, not knowing that tests comes depending on the Examiner, and the purpose of the test.

I wonder what the purpose of your being tested was.

https://www.nairaland.com/5455711/withdraw-all-said-koran-etc#82878909

I note how you had to go and edit your faux pax.

LordReed:


And those tests must be given correct?

Yes.

jesusjnr:
Yes.

Then you must have a tempter correct?

LordReed:


Then you must have a tempter correct?

Yes, for those tests which require the tempter.

Unltimately the purpose of the Teachings and Instructions that God gives to man is to ensure that man places His Word above every thing else, and that purpose is acheived when man keeps and abides by It no matter what.

And Satan the tempter is absolutely opposed to that result, so he would do or say anything to ensure that purpose is not acheived. Therefore that makes his temptations usually the best test to prove that the purpose of the Teachings and Instructions which God gives to man has been acheived.

So that whenever he comes up against man with everything he's got, and yet man still keeps God's Word, man has passed the ultimate test and hence achieved that said purpose.

Temptation is a Guide to Choice of Human Rights.

jesusjnr:
Yes, for those tests which require the tempter.

Unltimately the purpose of the Teachings and Instructions that God gives to man is to ensure that man places His Word above every thing else, and that purpose is acheived when man keeps and abides by It no matter what.

And Satan the tempter is absolutely opposed to that result, so he would do or say anything to ensure that purpose is not acheived. Therefore that makes his temptations the best test to prove that the purpose of the Teachings and Instructions which God gives to man has been acheived.

So that whenever he comes up against man with everything he's got, and yet man still keeps God's Word, man has passed the ultimate test and hence achieved that said purpose.

The tempter is essential for tests that require overcoming a tempter. Such tests are essential to establishing that the teachings and instructions of Jehovah have been achieved. Therefore the tempter is essential, there is no other conclusion to reach.

LordReed:


The tempter is essential for tests that require overcoming a tempter. Such tests are essential to establishing that the teachings and instructions of Jehovah have been achieved. Therefore the tempter is essential, there is no other conclusion to reach.

I thought I already said that he was to that extent.