Okwyjesus:

Face your country issue and leave the church alone. You have civil leaders.

The Bible defined how the tithe should be used. You are not to redefine that for the church.

Is the church located in space? Why are you trying hard to be irrational? Seriously...you are giving earthly money to two organisations but only expect returns from just one organisation. The church owes its congregation a better life outside the spiritual one. To whom much is given much is expected. If you take physical money give physical help in return.

jesusjnr:
Sorry about the delay bro.

I can see that you have already completed your response, so let me quickly get to mine.

From your response It's clear that we both agree that giving by those of the church is not a voluntary thing but compulsory, to the extent that not doing so could deprive one of eternal life, hence it was a commandment giving by Jesus which must be kept.

So the next thing is how much?

Now we already know that there's a percentage for tithes which is a least ten percent as commanded in the Law, so how about that for the church as commanded by Jesus?

Was there any percentage required or was it just any amount, so that someone could give 0.1 percent, and someone else could give 99.9 percent and both would have kept the same instruction?

On the matter of how much to give, I will still emphasise on Spirit led giving from a cheerful heart. If you believe the Holy Spirit is right, whatever amount He lays upon your heart to support the kingdom and also help your neighbour is the right amount.

Back to this matter of monetary tithing in the church, if we decide to use Matthew 23 v 23 to defend it, look closely that scripture talks about tithing of agroproduce i.e. dill, mint and cumin (not money) as God clearly instructed in Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29.

This concept of defining 10% of one’s monetary income as tithe still baffles me.

jesusjnr:


I believe God gave a required percentage, hence my quoting the instances of Jesus commandment to the church about giving, to show that it was a minimum of a hundred percent which He commanded.

And that was significantly higher than the minimum of ten percent that was required by the Law for tithes, but unsurprisingly so since the Law Jesus brought was a huge upgrade to the Law of Moses, so it was only normal that it would be require much more.

And that was what Jesus asked of the rich man you spoke of who could easily meet the requirements of the Law which demanded ten percent, but when it came to that of Jesus which required a hundred percent, it proved too much for him to scale.

It's easy to criticize the rich man for falling short of the requirement of the Law of Jesus which is a hundred percent, but the Truth is that it's easier said than done, because the hundred percent which Jesus asks of those of His church is very hard to meet compared to that which the Law requires which is ten percent as the rich man showed on that occasion.

So does that mean that people as that rich man who are not able to meet the hundred percent which Jesus asks of those of His church, should no longer give God even the tithes ten percent they are able to meet?

I believe that anyone who has not given God the minimum of a hundred percent that Jesus asks of those of His church are yet at the level of tithes which is ten percent, and hence have not yet entered into the Kingdom of God.

When I say enter into the Kingdom of God, I don't mean being saved or having eternal life, for from the conversation that Jesus had with the rich man, it clearly showed that what the Laws required which was the ten percent was enough to get him that.

So that's not what i mean when i say the kingdom of God, but that which required a hundred percent from him to be able to enter, which he couldn't meet, that's the Kingdom of God. Matthew 19:17, 21-24.

And the hundred percent that Jesus commanded which the rich man to give he fell short of, was the same requirement which His disciples had met to be able to enter into the Kingdom of God. Matthew 19:27-29

Now I already gave you the instance of Abraham with Isaac to illustrate what giving God a hundred percent meant, for Abraham was said to have obeyed God voice despite him not killing Isaac physically as God had commanded to do... so that also applies to giving God a hundred percent, for it doesn't necessarily mean physically, but it must be done mentally.

So there's a possibility that Jesus could have done same and stopped the rich man from carrying it out physically, had the man accepted to do what He commanded him to do, because he had already done it in his mind. So the man would have obeyed His voice and given God the hundred percent that it required for him to enter into the Kingdom of God without having to do so literally.

The mentality is the primary objective, so someone may not necessarily have to give God a hundred percent physically, but the mindset is crucial and I believe that was the standard Jesus required for His church, that which it had then at the beginning that informed her orientation.

But unfortunately the standard of the church has crashed from the hundred percent it was at the time to the ten percent it is today.

So does that mean we should stop people of the church from giving God the ten percent the Law requires, because they are not able to meet the hundred percent required by kingdom of God which is supposed to be the standard of the church?

Thanks and God bless.

Still typing.... I don’t have any objection to most of what is here though

jesusjnr:
It's blasphemy to say that Jesus was under the Law, because the Law was under Jesus!

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but that saying of Jesus about tithes proved that He wasn't against tithing even if you are.

You can still prove me wrong by showing me one instance where He spoke against tithing as He had done concerning several other Laws.

"woe to you scribes and Pharisees". How you tell yourself that this is commendation beats my imagination... Today's church is not different from the scribes and Pharisees, they neglect the weightier matter and focus on the tithe. Please show me one place recorded where the gentiles paid tithe or just show me one place In the new testament where the early Christian preached about or paid tithe... You entitled to believe what you want to believe

Scripturally tithing is a CRIME today!

Before Jesus came to establish Christianity, God gave the Jews over 600 laws that will prepare them to welcome the Christ (Messiah/Saviour/Christ) when he comes!

Many prophets came and and gone each have something to say about this coming saviour until his arrival in the first century.

When he finally appeared back then, he started teaching the people so many things, according to him the Jewish religious system will end and a new era will begin! John 4:22-24

So any law that came along with Judaism was nailed with Jesus that faithful day! Galatians 3:10-13

Anyone revisiting tithing today is not different from the one erroneously making animal sacrifices on altars in the name of Jesus!

Why?

Because the purpose of tithing according to the law was to pay those handling the services in the Temple! {Deuteronomy 14:22-29}
Therefore if the system of Temple worship has been abandoned or cancelled, what further need is there to bring back the tithe into Christianity that never had anything to do with tithing when it commenced? Hebrew 7:5-11

So since what led to tithing is no more, that law to tithe is NO MORE! Hebrew 7:12

God bless you!

loswhite:
"woe to you scribes and Pharisees". How you tell yourself that this is commendation beats my imagination... Today's church is not different from the scribes and Pharisees, they neglect the weightier matter and focus on the tithe. Please show me one place recorded where the gentiles paid tithe or just show me one place In the new testament where the early Christian preached about or paid tithe... You entitled to believe what you want to believe

Lol!

It certainly didn't beat your imagination why Jesus said "woe to the Scribes and Pharisees" because it's obvious you deliberately left that part out, as that would have beaten your idea that Jesus was against tithing.

"these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone"

I agree with you though on the part that this church especially her leaders are no different from those mammon worshipping Pharisees in that respect.

Tithing is obviously not supposed to be the standard of the church, because the standard of the church is a hundred percent as was shown in the early church. Acts 4:34-35.

But in the absence of a hundred percent giving to God as it ought to be done by those of church, tithing is a necessity in my opinion, because I believe the only excuse anyone of the church should give for not tithing, is because they have given God a hundred percent.

jesusjnr:
It's blasphemy to say that Jesus was under the Law, because the Law was under Jesus!

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but that saying of Jesus about tithes proved that He wasn't against tithing even if you are.

You can still prove me wrong by showing me one instance where He spoke against tithing as He had done concerning several other Laws.

Jesus also didn't speak against circumcision

Jesus, even his disciples probably paid their tithes while living under the covenant of the law.


Jesus obeyed the law, na ba



Please note, this in no way supports paying tithe in God's church

OkCornel:


On the matter of how much to give, I will still emphasise on Spirit led giving from a cheerful heart. If you believe the Holy Spirit is right, whatever amount He lays upon your heart to support the kingdom and also help your neighbour is the right amount.

Back to this matter of monetary tithing in the church, if we decide to use Matthew 23 v 23 to defend it, look closely that scripture talks about tithing of agroproduce i.e. dill, mint and cumin (not money) as God clearly instructed in Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29.

This concept of defining 10% of one’s monetary income as tithe still baffles me.

I believe in being led by the Holy Spirit in all we do, but that also includes obeying the commandments of Jesus, because those Words are also the Words of the Spirit, so following them in my opinion is being led of the Spirit as well.

But since what you mean by Spirit-led giving doesn't include that, but any amount the Spirit lays in one's heart to give, I want to ask you these questions:

1. Is it possible for the Spirit to lay it in someone's heart to be giving ten percent of his profits every month?

2. Is it also possible for the Spirit to also lead a church leader to ask his church members to be giving ten percent of their income every month?

And i would also like to know what you think of Ananias and Sapphire's part giving instead of a hundred percent in the first church that led them to their untimely deaths. And also if the Spirit had any role in that.

Thanks and God bless.

BlueAngel444:

Jesus also didn't speak against circumcision
Jesus, even his disciples probably paid their tithes while living under the covenant of the law.
Jesus obeyed the law, na ba
Please note, this in no way supports paying tithe in God's church

Jesus and his disciples wisely applied the principles behind the laws!

But the very moment Jesus breath his last on the torture stake, everything having to do with the Temple including the laws came to an end! Romans 10:4 compared to Matthew 27:51

The account @ Matthew 27:51 is a valid proof that God is no more interested in whatever the Jews are doing in that Temple!

Why can we conclude so?

Because the large curtain is the only cover between the holy and most holy inside the Temple {Daniel 9:24} the high priest enters into the most holy with blood of animal in his hand otherwise the angel in there will strike him dead!

Nobody except the high priest enters the most holy!
When the curtain ripped itself into two from top to bottom is a sign that God's angel has departed from the Jerusalem Temple and so God's blessing is no more with Judaists, God's blessing for worship now dwells in the congregation of Christians. That's why God's holy spirit kept performing so much signs in the midst and hands of the first century Christians!

They weren't following the Mosaic laws anymore, what they were doing is reminding themselves of what Jesus taught them by thoughts, words and actions. Jesus the high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek {Hebrew 7:11} has entered the Most Holy Temple (heaven) with his own blood! Hebrew 9:12

So whatever the Mosaic laws says is no more their concern now, that's the old ABANDONED covenant {Jeremiah 31:31-34} their main concern
now is Jesus' life and ministry, that's the only way to Salvation! Galatians 3:23-29

jesusjnr:
I believe in being led by the Holy Spirit in all we do, but that also includes obeying the commandments of Jesus, because those Words are also the Words of the Spirit, so following them in my opinion is being led of the Spirit as well.

But since what you mean by Spirit-led giving doesn't include that, but any amount the Spirit lays in one's heart to give, I want to ask you these questions:

1. Is it possible for the Spirit to lay it in someone's heart to be giving ten percent of his profits every month?

Absolutely yes! The Holy Spirit can lay it upon someone’s heart to do so.

jesusjnr:


2. Is it also possible for the Spirit to also lead a church leader to ask his church members to be giving ten percent of their income every month?

That one contravenes this scripture 2 Corinthians 9 v 7

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Perhaps the Apostles and early church leaders would have levied the early believers a fixed sum “as led by the Spirit” to contribute to the church purse every week or month.

jesusjnr:


And i would also like to know what you think of Ananias and Sapphire's part giving instead of a hundred percent in the first church that led them to their untimely deaths. And also if the Spirit had any role in that.

Thanks and God bless.

Ananias and Sapphira perished not because they gave in part, but because they lied. They claimed they gave all the proceeds rather than half of it.

BlueAngel444:

Jesus also didn't speak against circumcision

Jesus, even his disciples probably paid their tithes while living under the covenant of the law.


Jesus obeyed the law, na ba



Please note, this in no way supports paying tithe in God's church

Jesus never spoke about circumcision but He spoke about tithes on several occasions and never spoke against it once.

Jesus obeying the Law don't mean He's under the Law. There are times when Jesus didn't obey the Law, as that of the Sabbath day for Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath and also the Law, so to say Jesus was under the Law is blasphemy!!!

A hundred percent giving took the place of tithing concerning those of the church. So that's the only reason anyone should not pay tithes, because the person has already given God a hundred percent. But anyone who has not given God a hundred percent should at least give God ten percent.

OkCornel:


Absolutely yes! The Holy Spirit can lay it upon someone’s heart to do so.



That one contravenes this scripture 2 Corinthians 9 v 7

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Perhaps the Apostles and early church leaders would have levied the early believers a fixed sum “as led by the Spirit” to contribute to the church purse every week or month.




Ananias and Sapphira perished not because they gave in part, but because they lied. They claimed they gave all the proceeds rather than half of it.

Ok. So 1 is possible for you, but 2 is impossible.

Concerning Ananias and Sapphira, why do you think they had to lie? I mean, they didn't need to even if others were giving a hundred percent. They could have just said that it was part of the proceeds and not all.

jesusjnr:
Jesus never spoke about circumcision but He spoke about tithes on several occasions and never spoke against it once.

Jesus obeying the Law don't mean He's under the Law. There are times when Jesus didn't obey the Law, as that of the Sabbath day for Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath and also the Law, so to say Jesus was under the Law is blasphemy!!!

A hundred percent giving took the place of tithing concerning those of the church. So that's the only reason anyone should not pay tithes, because the person has already given God a hundred percent. But anyone who has not given God a hundred percent should at least give God ten percent.

Jesus obeyed the law of Sabbath, the real law of Sabbath not the Pharisee's interpretation of the law of Sabbath.

Jesus didn't speak against tithing but he rebuked those who practiced it and took it has their right to a privilege with God.

Look sir, we are free to give God gifts like Cain and Abel but God isn't obliged to accept.


There's a misconception that Abraham gave 10% whereas Abraham gave a 100% of what he took.

It has always been a 100% to God. The 10% was to Levites who die. God asked Abraham give me your only son, God does share what is His

Jesus lived when the Law governed people, whether that is blaspheme to you or not doesn't matter.. It remains scripture

Even Jesus made use of scripture, to prove that he is the one. Fulfilling the law, being under it, showing his humility. Jesus was a man. In better terms Son of Man

Maximus69:


Jesus and his disciples wisely applied the principles behind the laws!

But the very moment Jesus breath his last on the torture stake, everything having to do with the Temple including the laws came to an end! Romans 10:4 compared to Matthew 27:51

The account @ Matthew 27:51 is a valid proof that God is no more interested in whatever the Jews are doing in that Temple!

Why can we conclude so?

Because the large curtain is the only cover between the holy and most holy inside the Temple {Daniel 9:24} the high priest enters into the most holy with blood of animal in his hand otherwise the angel in there will strike him dead!

Nobody except the high priest enters the most holy!
When the curtain ripped itself into two from top to bottom is a sign that God's angel has departed from the Jerusalem Temple and so God's blessing is no more with Judaists, God's blessing for worship now dwells in the congregation of Christians. That's why God's holy spirit kept performing so much signs in the midst and hands of the first century Christians!

They weren't following the Mosaic laws anymore, what they were doing is reminding themselves of what Jesus taught them by thoughts, words and actions. Jesus the high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek {Hebrew 7:11} has entered the Most Holy Temple (heaven) with his own blood! Hebrew 9:12

So whatever the Mosaic laws says is no more their concern now, that's the old ABANDONED covenant {Jeremiah 31:31-34} their main concern
now is Jesus' life and ministry, that's the only way to Salvation! Galatians 3:23-29

Peter, James and John heard the voice of God saying listen to my beloved son, Jesus Christ... i.e ignore both Moses and Elijah.

jesusjnr:
Ok. So 1 is possible for you, but 2 is impossible.

Concerning Ananias and Sapphira, why do you think they had to lie? I mean, they didn't need to even if others were giving a hundred percent. They could have just said that it was part of the proceeds and not all.

Totally pointless for those couples to lie. Perhaps they felt the need to keep up appearances to seem as generous as the Levite that sold of his land and brought all the proceeds to the church.

Look at Acts 5 v 3-4 where Peter rebuked Ananias before he kicked the bucket.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God

OkCornel:


Totally pointless for those couples to lie. Perhaps they felt the need to keep up appearances to seem as generous as the Levite that sold of his land and brought all the proceeds to the church.

Look at Acts 5 v 3-4 where Peter rebuked Ananias before he kicked the bucket.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God

Acts 4:34-37 (KJV)

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

From the above saying it seemed to be the usual practice of those of the church to give the full price of what they sold and not part, and Barnabas was just one of the many who did so.

Thanks though for your answers.

God bless.

jesusjnr:


Acts 4:34-37 (KJV)

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

From the above saying it seemed to be the usual practice of those of the church to give the full price of what they sold and not part, and Barnabas was just one of the many who did so.

Thanks though for your answers.

God bless.

Well, the Apostles would not reject anyone who still decided to keep a part of the proceeds, as long as they were open and honest about it.


That notwithstanding, God’s requirement for tithing versus what most churches define as tithing today doesn’t correlate. But no need to repeat myself on that sha.

Got anything planned for the holidays?

BlueAngel444:


Jesus obeyed the law of Sabbath, the real law of Sabbath not the Pharisee's interpretation of the law of Sabbath.

Jesus didn't speak against tithing but he rebuked those who practiced it and took it has their right to a privilege with God.

Look sir, we are free to give God gifts like Cain and Abel but God isn't obliged to accept.


There's a misconception that Abraham gave 10% whereas Abraham gave a 100% of what he took.

It has always been a 100% to God. The 10% was to Levites who die. God asked Abraham give me your only son, God does share what is His

Jesus lived when the Law governed people, whether that is blaspheme to you or not doesn't matter.. It remains scripture

Even Jesus made use of scripture, to prove that he is the one. Fulfilling the law, being under it, showing his humility. Jesus was a man. In better terms Son of Man

Matthew 12:3-8 (KJV)

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Jesus was not under the law, but the Lord of the Law inclusive of that of the Sabbath day. And this is the Truth.

Kindly ignore the blasphemy part, for i just used that word to respond to someone who said it was blasphemy for Jesus not to obey the Law because He was under the Law.

God bless.

OkCornel:


Well, the Apostles would not reject anyone who still decided to keep a part of the proceeds, as long as they were open and honest about it.


That notwithstanding, God’s requirement for tithing versus what most churches define as tithing today doesn’t correlate. But no need to repeat myself on that sha.

Got anything planned for the holidays?

Well, we can never be sure about the bolded since there was no instance given there of such in that church, but what we can establish is that all who sold gave full price, and the only persons said to give part price died.

Though I don't believe they were supposed to die, but that they should have just been reprimanded and their part price rejected, because full price was supposed to be the standard of the church.

As for holiday plans, na God be my plans oh.

Thanks and God bless.

jesusjnr:


Well, we can never be sure about the bolded since there was no instance given there of such in that church, but what we can establish is that all who sold gave full price, and the only persons said to give part price died.

Though I don't believe they were supposed to die, but that they should have just been reprimanded and their part price rejected, because it was meant to be full price or nothing, as i believe that was the standard of giving of those of the church.

As for holiday plans, na God be my plans oh.

Thanks and God bless.

Would you like us to examine wealthy New Testament believers in the scriptures?

OkCornel:


Would you like us to examine wealthy New Testament believers in the scriptures?

The commandment of Jesus about hundred percent giving and the example of giving in that church He built which abided by that standard suffices for me, because that is the requirement of the Kingdom of God for anyone who wants to be a part of it in my own opinion.

So thanks but no thanks.

jesusjnr:
The commandment of Jesus about hundred percent giving and the example of giving in that church He built which abided by that standard suffices for me, because that is the requirement of the Kingdom of God for anyone who wants to be a part of it in my own opinion.

So thanks but no thanks.

Lol...this guy ehn

BlueAngel444:


Peter, James and John heard the voice of God saying listen to my beloved son, Jesus Christ... i.e ignore both Moses and Elijah.

Meaning ~

Jesus the Saviour is here now, so whatever you've heard from any of those prophets should be considered as incomplete information now {Matthew 5:21-24} that God's only begotten son (who knew God in and out) is here! John 1:18

OkCornel:


Lol...this guy ehn

Bros we don try. Make we rest small. At least you've made your main points and I've made mine.

Thanks and God bless.

jesusjnr:
Bros we don try. Make we rest small. At least you've made your main points and I've made mine.

Thanks and God bless.

Lol, no probs. Wasn’t arguing with you though.

As humans that we all are, divergent views and opinions are inevitable.

OkCornel:


Lol, no probs. Wasn’t arguing with you though.

As humans that we all are, divergent views and opinions are inevitable.

True bro.

Cheers.

jesusjnr:
Lol!

But thanks for helping me out, because all of the above bolded still represent you and your mentor below who omit and sideline the majors of the Law, judgment, mercy, and faith, because of a minor as tithing.

Imagine the kind of heresy that a church leader could possibly conjure because of tithing below. Some others would threaten people with death amongst other evils.

So the rebuke of Jesus also applies to all of you both ancient and modern-day tithe-abusers and I am completely with Jesus on this.

By the way, if you think I have ever been against tithing and this has anything to do with your gospel of mammon, you can continue in your delusion. For I've never been against the tithing, but the overemphasis and abuse of tithes by the pharisees which is what Jesus was also against and here is your proof:

https://www.nairaland.com/5403149/benny-hinn-repents-prosperity-gospel/1#82030130

But you can keep rejoicing because of a figment of your imagination instead of repenting of your mammon worshipping.

Audio mammon-worshiping. Na your ways...