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Saturday Or Sunday, Which Is The Real Sabbath Day? / What Is The True Sabbath Day, Saturday Or Sunday? / What Is The Right Day To Go To Church: Saturday Or Sunday? (2) (3) (4)
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| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by Horus(m): 2:53pm On Jun 04, 2007 |
 Photograp of an Ass behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt. (John 12:15, in part) If you Christians want to worship something, why don’t you worship the ass? After all, it was the ass that bore the Messiah Jesus’ weight and delivered him to the city of Jerusalem. The palms on the other hand, were merely laid on the ground to be stepped on and crumbled. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by gbadex1(m): 3:10pm On Jun 04, 2007 |
. . .then by your statements, it would be the same ass that carried your "black jesus", why aren't you worshipping the ass as well? That's right Horus, do us a favour and beat it! |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by thesilent1(m): 4:12pm On Jun 04, 2007 |
Horus, Do not make me go all "samson" on you with that ass  |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by Bobbyaf(m): 6:56am On Jun 05, 2007 |
Many Sunday observers argue that the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week dates back to Jesus and His apostles. They assert that Sunday observance replaced the seventh-day Sabbath for most Christians as early as the first century A.D. and became a fixed custom by the mid-second century. Therefore, they urge that all Christians today should regard the seventh-day Sabbath as a Jewish institution that should not be observed. Since Sunday was the first day of creation week (Gen. 1:5) and the day on which Christ rose from the dead (Matt. 28:1-10; Mark 16:1-9), it should be observed as a day of Christian worship and rejoicing in accordance with the custom of the early Christian fathers. In fact, Sunday keepers argue that observance of the seventh-day Sabbath is a highly legalistic custom that is thoroughly consistent with those Jewish ceremonial practices abolished when Jesus died on the cross. This theory raises a whole series of questions in regard to the teaching of the New Testament and the testimony of history. Did Jesus change the day from the seventh to the first day of the week? Did the apostles urge that Sunday be observed as a memorial of the resurrection of Christ? Did they themselves observe Sunday as a special day of worship? Was first-day worship a substitute for Sabbath worship for most Christians as early as the second century A.D.? Was the Sabbath regarded by early Christians as a purely Jewish institution with no significance for followers of Christ? What does history have to teach us regarding the reason for the change of the day from the seventh to the first day of the week? These questions are vital for Christians today! If it happens to be unscriptural and unhistorical that Sunday observance was initiated by Christ and the apostles, those who argue so strenuously for it today are supporting a non-Christian practice. If Jesus and the apostles observed the seventh-day Sabbath, and Sunday keeping crept into the Christian Church over a period of centuries as pagan ideas and practices became more and more acceptable, those who reject the Sabbath today are spurning one of Christ's commandments and are, therefore, in grave danger of being rejected by God. To be a Christian is to believe and act as Jesus did (John 14:15; Rev. 3:21; 12:17; 14:12). To profess faith in Christ while rejecting aspects of His teaching and refusing to live and worship as He instructed is to be guilty of serious sin. "Whoever says, 'I have come to know him,' but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says, 'I abide in him,' ought to walk just as he walked" (1 John 2:4-6). We will begin with the Scriptures and then turn to history for the answers to the questions we are asking. A much more complete discussion of the Sabbath-Sunday question can be found in the book edited by Kenneth A. Strand, The Sabbath in Scripture and History (Washington, DC.: Review and Herald, 1982). DID JESUS AND THE APOSTLES CHANGE THE DAY OF WORSHIP FROM THE SEVENTH-DAY SABBATH TO SUNDAY, THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK? The word Sunday or Saturday are not found in the Bible. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Let us briefly consider each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week. Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake. . . ." Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening. (The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb. Mark 16:1, 2, "When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb." Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices. Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons." This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene. Luke 23:54 24:1, "It [the day of Jesus' death and burial] was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared." The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women disciples "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath. Writing years after the event, Luke gave not the slightest hint that, even though the women disciples of Jesus observed the Sabbath, such a practice was no longer expected of Christians. He simply recorded that the Sabbath day "according to the commandment," which Jesus' followers were careful to observe, was the day after the crucifixion day (Friday), and before the resurrection day (Sunday). John 20:1, "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb." Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest. John 20:19, "When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.'" On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5,  . A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should henceforth be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.Acts 20:7, "On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight." Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night. According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text. 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem." These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected. None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever special significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles. As pointed out in the previous chapter, Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death (Matt. 24:20). Jesus' instruction was incorporated into His interpretation of Daniel 8 (compare Matthew 24:15 ff.). Daniel predicted that the work of the little horn power would continue until the setting up of God's kingdom (Dan. 8:25). Hence, Jesus' instruction to flee from the little horn power was not confined to Christians at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Toward the end of time, during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21, of which earlier tribulations were a type or preview, God's people will be obliged to flee again. Jesus' instruction that we pray that our flight will not be on the Sabbath day emphasizes His will that we engage in only those activities on the Sabbath that are consistent with worship and spiritual rest. The record of the book of Acts (chapters 13, 16,18) establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. This observance was not merely a means of meeting the Jews in the synagogue on their Sabbath day. In Philippi, Paul and his companions met for worship by the riverside. Luke says, "On the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed [or "thought" or "assumed" : Greek nomizo] there was a place for prayer. . . ." (Acts 16:13). The apostles selected a place by the river that they thought would be appropriate for their Sabbath worship service, and there they prayed and witnessed for their Lord. Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise. DID THE APOSTLE PAUL REJECT THE SEVENTH-DAY SABBATH? Despite the evidence that Jesus kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16) and encouraged His followers to do the same (Matt. 24:20), and despite the evidence that Paul customarily observed the Sabbath (Acts 13, 16, 17, 18), some Bible students focus on certain passages in Paul's writings as supposed evidence that he sought to do away with the seventh-day Sabbath. The two passages that are usually presented are Romans 14:5, 6 and Colossians 2:13-17. The Romans passage in context reads as follows: "Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions. 2. Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables. 3. Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat; for God has welcomed them. 4. Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand. 5. Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. 6. Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God" (Rom. 14:1-6). The above reference isn't suggesting that the importance that God placed on the seventh-day sabbath be lessened in any manner, because in truth and reality it had nothing to do with the seventh-day sabbath that is found in God's ten commandments. The above reference had to do with the jewish festival days that were themselves different types of sabbaths. It was these days that jewish christians argued about as to which one of those days carried more significance, even though they were more or less shadows, or types of the kind of ministry of Christ. Like the rite of circumcision, these sabbaths were still being pushed as being significant by overzealous jewish christians as opposed to the gentile christians whom they saught to influence. The truth is the observance of sunday crept in christian circles because of the overriding pagan practises. The Sun god was honored on the first day of the week, and that day was dedicated by the Roman pagans. When Constantine the pagan sought political power his strategy during the 4th century was to win the hearts of everyone including christians. What better way to unite the fragile state of Rome than to marry paganism with christianity. Smart politician wasn't he? Constantine eventually regulated in 321 AD that no work should be done on Sunday, except work involving those of the farmers and agriculturists. We now summarize this article by reiterating that Jesus and the apostles observed the seventh-day Sabbath. There is no evidence in the New Testament for Sunday as a day of rest and worship. The New Testament nowhere invites or instructs Christians to observe Sunday as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. The apostle Paul did not attempt to abolish the seventh-day Sabbath. He consistently observed it. The Sabbath was neglected and depreciated in second-century Rome and Alexandria. Sabbath observance was progressively replaced by Sunday observance in the centuries that followed. But time and tradition to not abolish the law of God. Jesus said, "Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:19). |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by stimulus(m): 7:52am On Jun 05, 2007 |
@Bobbyaf, Bobbyaf: You do realize you really have no answers for this debate. Next time, be so kind as to leave us the link for the materials you plagiarize from other sources, as it is far more dignified to do so: http://www.sabbathfellowship.org/biblestudies/erwingane/biblestudy_gane_sabbathchng.htm That said, the argument above was simply wafted from the typical perspective of seventh-day adventists/sabbath group (www.sabbathfellowship.org), and I would have no problem with that. The only thing seventh-day adventists and sabbatarians miss out is a huge one, and that is this: Sabbatarians should realize that there are NO EXEMPTIONS NOR EXCUSES in the Sabbath Law; therefore they should not cheat on this, but STRICTLY observe the law of the Sabbath according to the STIPULATIONS outlined in Scripture. If sabbatarians bend the Law of the Sabbath to accommodate their "exemptions" and excuses, they should realize they are effectively REBELLING against that Law. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by thesilent1(m): 8:35am On Jun 05, 2007 |
[If sabbatarians bend the Law of the Sabbath to accommodate their "exemptions" and excuses, they should realize they are effectively REBELLING against that Law/quote] |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by Bobbyaf(m): 4:52am On Jun 06, 2007 |
Sabbatarians should realize that there are NO EXEMPTIONS NOR EXCUSES in the Sabbath Law; The apostle James says if you break one you're guilty of all. Every true christian should be concerned about all 10 of God's holy precepts, and should strive to be obedient to all of them. You're making out the Lord's day of rest to be a burden largely due to your misunderstanding of its context and application, by stressing stipulations that were fitting for the time in which those stipulations were given. Any reasonable thinker should know by now that not every sabbath stipulation that was designed for a particular situation can still be expected to apply now. SDAs don't need to make excuses for seeing the real purpose of the sabbath, of which purpose you have not been able to fully grasp based on your view of why God instituted the sabbath from the very beginning. The scriptures have made it abundantly clear as to God's purpose and plan for the divine institution. Whatever importance is applied to the marriage institution would obviously apply to the sabbath since both are edenic. I am satisfied with what Jesus said and not you. His voice alone merits my attention, not yours. If He said that the sabbath was made for mankind, then we as SDAs are included in that plan and purpose. It would be nice if you could open your eyes to such glorious truth, but alas your choice is yours to make. "Whoever says, 'I have come to know him,' but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says, 'I abide in him,' ought to walk just as he walked" (1 John 2:4-6). "Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:19). Cheers! |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by stimulus(m): 6:18am On Jun 06, 2007 |
@Bobbyaf, Bobbyaf: The apostle James would certainly not have asked Christians to be yoked by the stringent Law of the Sabbath with all of its stipulations and then make room for what you call "exemptions". Bobbyaf: My premise is simple enough: you cannot change even one stroke or tittle of the stipulations of the Sabbath Law and regard it as no longer applicable - that would be both hypocritical, scandalous and rebellious. Since you have been arguing for the Sabbath Law, you should aim to keep it in exactly as the Law prescribes; and not re-design it to suit any 21st century whims. Bobbyaf: I'm not the one arguing for the Sabbath Law or making excuses for it. Rather, you've severally offered excuses for those 'professionals' who go to work to make money for their pockets under the guise of 'emergent' cases. My reasoning has been consistent from the onset: 1) I warned that it was needless to reharsh a well-rounded debate from another thread since you've been unable to answer the germane questions raised there; 2) If you must argue for the Law of the Sabbath, then you would have to adhere to its stipulations and make no excuses for the convenient and selective practices of the SDA; 3) If you're arguing for a Sabbath Law in Genesis, then provide the verse in Genesis where God gave such a Law to Adam and Eve; for it is indeed senseless to apply the Mosaic Law that was given several centuries later on people that came before that Law; 4) The Sabbath Law was not made for Christians. Bobbyaf: It would really be nice for you to open your eyes to the truth that Jesus did not ask the SDA to make exemptions to the Law of the Sabbath. You have been knotting yourself by your contradictions and offering fine sounding cliches to circumvent the stipulations of the same Law you cannot keep and still asking others to keep. Obedience to the Law is on God's prescriptions - not on your terms or that of the SDA. Bobbyaf: I thank God for that verse. And here are a few for those who make excuses and exemptions for the Law they cannot keep: "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?. . . Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." (Matt. 15:3 & 6) "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." (Mark 7:9) Bobbyaf: For your sake, I hope you see that Matt. 5:19 speaks to your own case? You can keep the Law of the Sabbath if you want to; but if you make exemptions in order to break it in the least, not only do you make yourself 'least' in the Kingdom of heaven, but you also constitute yourself a rebel against that same Law by excusing its prescriptions or stipulations. Have you not made exemptions in your previous rejoinders in order that ye may keep your SDA tradition? Regards. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by thesilent1(m): 8:43am On Jun 06, 2007 |
you cannot change even one stroke or tittle of the stipulations of the Sabbath Law and regard it as no longer applicable TRUE my take on this is that the fundamental thing to bear in mind here is the "age" or "administration" that we are in. let me explain; garden of eden, fall of man, law, grace, etc (not in actual order) and if you read through the bible you see that the "administration" determined how to live, worship, marry, eat, etc. for example in the garden, nothing was bad to eat (apart from the obvious one people; the tree), after the fall, certain things become unclean so certain things are not allowed to be eaten, enter grace in NT and it changes again. another one is worship/prayer; in the garden it is relationship so chilling together in the cool of the day, after the fall, it is sacrifice on an alter, enter the law and it is no longer just anywhere, it is now in the temple, enter grace and its no longer restricted and back to the garden of relationship and not LIMITED to just one group of people or one place. in its most simplest form, it can be described as perfection, fall, return to perfection (ongoing) considering how prevalent among Christian churches is the custom of getting together for a Sunday service. As usual, the question we must ask is, “What does the Bible say?” And yes, the Bible does prescribe taking one day a week, “the seventh day,” as God did, for a “Sabbath.” It is most important to understand that the word “sabbath” is a hebrew word that means “a rest.” A day of rest was to follow six days of work. It actually had nothing to do with going to a worship service. but the key question is for whom is, or, more accurately, was the Sabbath prescribed? “What does the Bible say?” That is always the “bottom line,” but the answer must be understood in light of to whom the Bible is speaking. Scripture says that in the spectrum of human history, there are three, and only three, basic groups of people: “Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God” (1 Cor. 10:32). Each part of God's Word is written to one (and sometimes more than one) of those categories of people. As I like to say, it's all about pronouns. In Isaiah, for example, the pronouns representing those addressed by God (“you,” etc.) refer to Israel, not to Christians. But in Ephesians, the pronouns refer to Christians, those born again of the spirit of God, something that was not available to Old Testament believers, who lived prior to the death and resurrection of Christ. Most folks readily see that, but what about the Four Gospels? Jesus was not speaking to Christians, because there were no Christians until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. That is the first time anyone was “born again” of God's spirit, His “incorruptible seed.” And there will be no Christians after the “Rapture.” As such, today's “Administration of the Secret” (Pentecost until the Rapture) is the most unique time in history. As the Messiah, Jesus came to Israel, and his message was specifically to them. Certain parts of it, e.g., Luke 6:38 (“Give, and it shall be given to you, ”), are pertinent to us today, but most of what he said is directly regarding Israel, and based upon what is written in the Old Testament, which is all they could understand. That which was specifically addressed to Israel was superseded or changed in the Church Epistles, which are written specifically to Christians. “Oh,” some people say, “you're placing the words of Paul above the words of Jesus.” No, the Church Epistles are also the words of Jesus, as per Galatians 1:11. The question is: to whom was Jesus speaking? The Church Epistles, and Ephesians to the most pronounced degree, speak of “the Secret” (mistranslated “Mystery” in most versions, if not all). The Greek word musterion meant “secret,” that is, something that can be known and communicated from one to another (as opposed to a “mystery,” which no one understands). Ephesians 3 is clear that this Secret was not even conceived of in the Old Testament or Gospels period, but hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul. The Secret was that there would be a new group of people--not Jews and not Gentiles--people who would be “born again of incorruptible seed,” whose salvation would be unconditional and assured. That is good news! The Greek word oikonomia appears nine times, and is best translated “administration,” that is, a way in which God relates to mankind, the “rules and regulations,” if you will, for the people on earth during a particular time. Let the record show that God is very clear in His communication to people about what He expects from them in each administration. This is much like presidential administrations in the USA. When a new president is inaugurated, some things remain the same and other things change, depending upon his decisions as to how things will be during his presidency. Then people choose whether or not to adhere to the rules. It was during the administration of the Law (Exodus 20:1—Acts 1:26) that Jesus first came to the earth to Israel. He was born, lived, died, was resurrected, instructed his disciples about the coming gift of holy spirit, and ascended to heaven. That is why he kept the ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic Law by observing the Sabbath, being baptized in water, etc. We are now living in the fifth administration (Acts 2:1—2 Thess. 3:18 / Gentiles, Jews, & Christians), which Ephesians 3:2 calls the administration of God's grace and 3:9 calls the administration of this Secret. It began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) with the outpouring of the gift of holy spirit on all who believed in Jesus as the risen Lord and ends with the gathering together (“Rapture”) of the Church to meet the Lord in the air. In the meantime, the understanding and application of many critical subjects that definitely affect the quality of one’s Christian life, and which Christians have debated for centuries, hinges on an understanding of the administrational way in which God relates to mankind—to whom is what written? For example: Exodus 20:8-11 ( “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.(9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, (10) but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. (11) For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. OK, pronouns. Who is the “you”? It cannot be referring to Christians, because there were no Christians then. Clearly, the Sabbath was prescribed for Israel. But isn’t there something in the body of Scripture addressed to Christians that says we should go to church on Sunday? Well, that would be primarily Romans through Thessalonians, and actually there is something about the Sabbath—once, and only once: Colossians 2:16 and 17 (16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. In Colossians, the “you,” of course, is those born again of God’s holy spirit, for whom no such Sabbath observance is ever prescribed. In fact, the above verses are saying that there is no such thing that is relevant to the Church, the Body of Christ, Christians. Do the Church Epistles say that Christians should get together with others and sing, praise, worship, pray, minister, share financially, hear the Word, etc.? Absolutely. But there is no prescribed day—or way. Consider this: if Christians are to keep the Sabbath, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting circumcision as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the Sabbath, what about animal sacrifice to worship God? That can get costly. The epistle to the Hebrews was one of the earlier epistles, and was written primarily to ex-Jewish Christians (which all the first Christians were), many of whom were still clinging to their old ways. In Hebrews 7-10, God works hard to show them that the Mosaic Law was no longer applicable, for example: (7:18 and 19) “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God;” (9:9 and 10) “[The Tabernacle was] an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order;” (10:1) “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—and not the realities themselves…” Amen. Some Christians who do not understand the administrations in Scripture and who thus believe we should observe the Sabbath, etc., cite Matthew 5:17-19, where Jesus said that he had not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. First, to whom was he speaking? Jews. The Mosaic Law never did have anything to do with Christians. A key phrase in what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18 is that nothing would disappear from the Law “until everything is accomplished.” Jesus did accomplish everything he needed to relative to the Levitical Law, and that’s why it is no longer in effect. Today, we have no Temple, no Levites, no Aaronite priests, no animal sacrifices, etc. For both Jews and Gentiles, adhering to Romans 10:9 is the way to salvation. In closing, perhaps you are aware that a good number of Christians today are arguing about whether “the Sabbath” should be observed by believers meeting together on Saturday or Sunday. This needless conflict would evaporate if they understood that (a) the word “sabbath” means “rest,” and (b) neither day pertains to Christians as a special day, because for believers in the Administration of the Secret, every day is special. The argument is fruitless anyway because, based upon the consensus of Church historians, it cannot be definitely determined just when and why the early Church came to observe what we call “Sunday” (“the first day of the week”) as the day to gather together for fellowship, prayer, teaching, etc., rather than what we call “Saturday,” which was when Israel observed the Sabbath. For the record, rest is a godly principle, so that’s what I’ll do now. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by Bobbyaf(m): 7:56am On Jun 07, 2007 |
@ Thesilent1 I read your contribution and there are several things you mentioned that I have not come to grips with. You have categorised the plan of salvation into dispensations as it affected different peoples in different times. I am of the understanding that the "grace of God hath appeared to all men" according to Paul's letter to Titus. Grace and law were and are inseperable sets of principles during the course of history up to the very present. This is really the crux of the matter. Once persons see the connection between sin, law and grace then a large part of the confusion will have evaporated. Before sin manifested there was no need for grace, but sin could not have been defined without the principle of the law as Paul rightly teaches in Romans 7:7, What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” How different was Paul from Adam and Eve in terms of being saved from sin through grace? No one is different as far as being saved from sin is concerned. So, patriarchs, jews, christians, or whoever have all sinned and come short of God's glory, and all were subject to only one brand of salvation through God's grace. The OT doesn't say much about the moral law as it existed in principle before sin manifested, and not much was said about it either during the period of the patriarchs, except of course up to the time when Moses recieved it on Mount Sinai. Hence persons assume that there could not have been a law per se, but in reality and for all practical purposes there had to be a set of principles that would define for both Adam and Eve, and all the others who came after them, as to what constituted sin. Sin does not operate in a vacuum, and can only be committed when another set of principles are trangressed. For example why would the Genesis account relate Abel's death as the first murder if there were not a principle against taking one's life? So even though the account didn't mention it the 10 commandments in another era did. It defined it in words for the first time. Sin as far as God was concerned was not a mere picking of the forbidden fruit. Their act of sin costs the Son of God His life. Their sinning had to do with disobeying a direct command from their Creator. Before Eve could have picked that fruit she had to think about the reasons Satan gave her for wanting to disobey a direct command. She had to have desired or coveted the forbidden fruit based on the ideas that Lucifer placed in her head. Since the fruit was forbidden her act of picking it made her a thief. She stole what was expressly forbidden. The fact that she placed Lucifer's ideas above God's brings into sharp focus the command of placing another god before the Creator God. The fact that Adam placed his wife before God made him guilty also of placing another god before the Creator God. And that is why the apostle James reminds us that if we break one we are guilty of all. There is a common thread that runs through the divine law. Now how does the sabbath come into the picture of all of this? From the very beginning God had sanctified the seventh day after the six days of creation to be a holy day. The word "the" in Genesis 2:3 suggests a specific day, and not just any day. According to the Genesis account God had set apart for holy use the seventh-day sabbath, because that is exactly what the word sanctified means. Now, why would God sanctify a day immediately after creation, and not include Adam and Eve to be apart of that rest, based on what was later said in Exudus 20:8-11 as to why God set aside the day from the first place. Lets see the account: 8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. Have you noticed the phrase "for in six days, "? This was the reason given why God intends for His people to also rest. In other words God wants us to rest in order to celebrate with Him His act of creating. Each time His people rest, including peoples from all dispensations, in accordance with His request, we commemorate His act of Creatorship, and pay Him due recognition. Adam and Eve were the progenitors of all races. They began mankind and all those who follow them are called mankind. Jesus comes along in the NT and tries to redefine the true purpose of the sabbath, and made a profound statement like this, "the sabbath was made for man"You and I kow that the word "man" is used generically to mean mankind which includes not just males, but females. Now why would anyone limit that word mankind to the jews? Why would God from before sin manifested itself, institute the sabbath, and set it aside as a holy day, and then wait for almost 3000 years after creation to specifically hand it to a bunch of hebrews in order for them to define its purpose, and to live out those purposes? Why the hebrews? Could it be that through the hebrews God would re-inact its true purpose that was intended for all mankind, and that by entrusting them with His divine oracles they in turn would evangelise the pagan world who had lost all sight of a Creator-God? Is there a relationship betwen the creatorship of God and the sabbath? To argue that Christ came to abolish the creation sabbath, as opposed to the other ceremonial sabbaths, and to establish another day to commemorate His resurrection is also vain and pointless. There has never been a commansd to celebrate His resurrection by utilising Sunday, nor has there ever been a command from Christ or His disciples to nullify His holy day. I challenge any one to honestly reveal one text that points to a change from sabbath to Sunday. Not one of the eight NT references to the 1st day of the week have given any such command to keep that day in celebrating the resurrection. My detractors know it, but are too afraid to confess it. Either that or they are still in darkness. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by thesilent1(m): 11:37am On Jun 07, 2007 |
hello! thanks for the reply. i find its the amazing thing about our faith is that we can have very differnet opinions or revelations about something YET still be in the same boat (Christ) i pray and i am sure we shall get there one day, either here or in the new earth! praise God either way! |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 11:38am On Jun 07, 2007 |
@Bobbyaf, Although I'm very busy at the moment, I just had to come in here and make a few comments on your continued debate on this subject. You have been mixing up issues, and that is why you keep missing the point for that very reason. It is always safe to keep within the declarations of Scripture and not interpolate them with human reasoning (eisegesis). And here are a few of such interpolations: Bobbyaf: The Bible never called Eve a "thief", nor accuse her of "stealing". Rather, the Word expressly declares her sin in simple terms as: "but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim. 2:14). This answers to what was recorded in Gen. 3:13 - "And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." Bobbyaf: That again is not what Scripture declares. Eve was nowhere accused of 'placing another god before the Creator God'; and to make it sound as if that were the case is to force one's own ideas into the divine declarative. You're trying to accuse Eve of issues that even God Himself never once accused her of. Bobbyaf: Quite to the contrary, the Bible simply says that "Adam was not deceived" (1 Tim. 2:14). Adam simply disobeyed God's commandment; but that does not constitute a stretched meaning of his having placed his wife before God, or that he placed another god before the Creator God. If one were to apply the same rule to your own case, would it be fair to say that you have placed another god before the Creator God by choosing to make exemptions to the Law of the Sabbath where the OT made no room for such exemptions? If it does not apply, why so? And if you can narrow the rule in your own case, why stretch it wider in applying it to Adam and Eve even though God did not once accuse them of what you just did? Bobbyaf: In very simple terms, Scripture declares what God did on the seventh day - "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it HE had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Gen. 2:3). That should not be made to read that God expressly gave Adam and Eve a divine commandment of the Sabbath Law. I have not come across any Scripture that says God gave the Ten Commandments to Adam and Eve - and I've also repeatedly asked you to clearly proffer such a verse in Genesis. You have none for it in Genesis. Rather, God gave them only one commandment, and that was the only one they disobeyed - that of not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17). When they sinned, neither Adam nor his wife Eve were once accused of being thieves or having stolen anything. While Eve was said to have transgressed; it is reported that Adam was NOT deceived (1 Tim. 2:14). Nowhere did God accuse them of having broken the Ten Commandments; so it is unreasonable to read one's biases into the express declarations of Scripture. In Deuteronomy 5 when Moses reiterated the Ten Commandments, he specifically mentioned that the Law was given to Israel and to none else: "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day." (vs. 2-3). Again, the fact that the Sabbath Law was not given to other nations is emphasized in Deut. 4:6-8 -- "And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" When Moses in Exo. 20:8-11 gave the Sabbath Law to Israel, he explained its basis as pointing to God's sanctifying that Day after He had created the world. Not once did Moses hint that the Ten Commandments were given previously to anyone; nor did Moses explain any of the other 9 commandments on God's creative activity. After the Ten Commandments were given, they were also explained in detail as to their stipulations in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. That is where the question of stipulations come into the pciture. And when you outline every precept of the Law or Ten Commandments, you will begin to see how utterly impossible it is for anyone to be justified by the Law - whether in the past, present or future (Rom. 3:28 & Gal. 2:16). |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 11:39am On Jun 07, 2007 |
@Bobbyaf, Bobbyaf: As Christians, we find our rest in Jesus Christ Himself, rather than in commerating any special day. Further, not only do we recognize and celebrate God's awesome power in creation, but it is only in the New Covenant that we can address God as FATHER. Why so? Simply because in Jesus Christ and in Him alone, we find: the NEW birth (James 1:18 ); the NEW creation (2 Cor. 5:17 & Gal. 6:15); the NEW testament (1 Cor. 11:25 & Heb. 12:24); the NEW man (Eph. 2:15); the NEW and living way (Heb. 10:20) the NEW Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12) and the NEW heavens and NEW earth (2 Pet. 3:13) He makes all things new, my dear Bobbyaf; and to hold plod on with a Sabbath Law of the OT which you cannot defend under the power of the New Covenant is to base your hope on "that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:12); and also to miss the real purpose of the True Rest in Jesus Christ. Bobbyaf: This does not automatically mean that Adam and Eve were given the Ten Commandments - we've discussed this before contextually; and you have failed to provide answers to my 17 questions in the other thread on the same topic. Bobbyaf: Which simply goes to show a lazy way of reasoning. I simply ask you to please do two things: 1. Give me the verse in Genesis where God expressly gave Adam and Eve the Law of the Sabbath 2. Give me verses in Genesis to show HOW Adam and Eve understood the STIPULATIONS of the Sabbath which they did not have. You cannot shortchange anyone here by obfuscating the context of Mark 2:27; and we have dealt with this in the other thread mentioned earlier. It is characteristic for God to speak prophetically about an issue as if it already has happened; but then any careful reader knows that the prophetic statements were meant for the future. Just one example: (a) When Isaiah prophesied about the birth of Christ, he used the present tense of his time as if it already had happened: "For unto us a child IS born, unto us a son IS given" (Isaiah 9:6). Yet we know that it was several centuries later that the prophecy was fulfilled and its purpose explicated. When God declared the rest in Gen. 2:3, He did not pronounce it as a COMMANDMENT, for He was looking beyond a ritualistic observance to the time when He would send forth His Son as the only rest for mankind! It took more than 3000 years for the divine purpose of that Rest to be manifested and offered to the mankind. Bobbyaf: As someone has well pointed out earlier, there were other people who knew God and worshipped Him besides the Jews. Moses' father-in-law was the priest of Midian - read Exodus 18. There were several other non-Hebrew people who still knew and worshipped God; and it is wrong to conclude that others should be called "the pagan world" just because God chose the Hebrews. Secondly, the nation of Israel were not chosen to "evangelize" any other nation. Who were their evangelists? They were a non-proselytizing nation, who only received sojourners on the same Law that by wich they lived (Exo. 12:49 & Num. 15:16). Bobbyaf: What is actually vain and pointless is to predicate your assumptions on the Mosaic Law by quoting Exodus, and then rebelling against the same Law by trying to justify your excuses on so-called EXEMPTIONS! That is simply saying that you are trying to keep the Sabbath Law based on your own terms, and not on the stipulations of the same Law that were clearly given in the OT. Bobbyaf: Is there a command from Christ to celebrate His Resurrection on Saturday? Where? How? |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 11:41am On Jun 07, 2007 |
@Bobbyaf, Bobbyaf: You're such a comical character. Hear you "challenge" anyone to offer answers to your weak assumptions and yet YOU ran away from the 17 challenges I offered in the other thread. Even when you tried to play tennis with history in this thread, stimulus was on hand to set your misconceptions straight. I haven't read so many people arguing for a "CHANGE" of sabbath observation from Saturday to Sunday. What we have consistently been speaking of here is that "the Sabbath Law was NOT made for Christians" - and rather not about what day it should be observed by Christians at all. Bobbyaf: I expected that you would rope yourself again with this issue of the first day. I'm glad for your sake that you mentioned it, so that I could point you back to the OT about what the first day represents! Those who worship God based on the OT Law of the Sabbath have to recognize two things: (a) their worship emphasizes creation - the OLD creation. It is for this reason that they should look unto Jesus, who brought in a better hope; so that through the Redemptive titles of His blood, we may now be called the children of God; and rightfully address God as FATHER. That is why when we celebrate the Lord's Supper, we do it in remembrance of HIM ("this do in remembrance of ME" - 1 Cor. 11:24 & 25 ). We are not here speaking of remembering a day as Moses commanded Israel ("Remember the Sabbath day" - Exo. 20:8 ). This again should remind us of Paul's caution that Christians should not be judged in respect of these festivities: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, of the sabbath days" (Col. 2:16). (b) sabbatarians would have to strictly follow the stipulations of the Sabbath Law and not make eexcuses for any EXEMPTIONS. The Law of the Sabbath made no room for exemptions of any kind; and to fail in this is also to throw the claims of the Sabbath behind their backs! Jesus Christ being our divine rest Himself, our hope is no longer based on the law of the old life emphasizing the seventh day. Rather, God wants us to focus on the NEW creation, which has its basis on the FIRST DAY! That is why so many dear saints of God who argue for an OT sabbath fail to see that even in the LAW, there was a sabbath of the FIRST DAY!! Surprised? Here, let me remind you: The SABBATH of the FIRST Day! "And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you" (Exo. 12:16). Whatever happened on the SEVENTH day was also applicable on the FIRST day! And remember that this was first mentioned even before the Ten Commandments were given in Exodus 20! "In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein." (Lev. 23:7 & 8 ). "On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein. (Lev. 23:35 & 36). Now, carefully observe that the first day is also the eighth day as is clear above. But what is the penalty of breaking the Sabbath? To excuse it under any exemptions meritted DEATH - ""Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day." (Exo 35:2 & 3). Now, Bobbyaf, if you have been cooking or warming your food at all on the Sabbath days, you have long been asking for the stringent penalty of breaking the Sabbath - no excuses please! "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses" (Heb. 10:28 ). But then, what is the point of outlining the rest of those two days - the FIRST and SEVENTH days? In simple terms, to demonstrate that God was inidcating that the True Rest was a matter of the first day! That is why you will find that, while the seventh day sabbath had elaborate stipulations and stringent punitive measures, the first day was simply a day of one loud activity" CELEBRATION!!  The first day was a day of feasting, a day for celebrations and blowing of trumpets! Look again at the Sabbath of the First Day - "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation". (Lev. 23:24) As Christians, this is the celebration of a feast of deep significance: "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Cor. 5:7 & The Bible says in Heb. 4:8 - "For if Jesus (i.e., Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. God had been indicating this "other day" - the FIRST DAY - as inidcative of the NEW creation and a day of victory and celebrations in His Son, Jesus Christ. As Christians, we live to rejoice in the blessing of victory which God gave us in His Son; and we worship Him, not only as the Creator, but more so as our FATHER! We find our True Rest in God's holy Son, Jesus - and in Him and Him alone, we rejoice in hope of the fulfillment of the victory and blessing of the New creation and New Jerusalem. The ritualistic observance of a seventh-day sabbath has no place in the glories of the NT. It is either sabbatarians keep the Sabbath Law on God's terms and make NO EXEMPTIONS for their failures; or they seek to understand the true Sabbath of the first day which we find fulfilled in Jesus Christ! |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by viee(f): 11:46am On Jun 07, 2007 |
i read some posts and i laugh! why all this argument? did God say, this first day that is monday, i am making so so? and this last day that is sunday, i will rest? ttah nomenclature was never used anywhere in the bible? so whats the fuss about?   question should be; how much time do you dedicate to God everyday? and how often do we practise what we learn in the church? how does it reflect in daily relationship with our fellow human being that we can see as a catholic, we have our masses everyday i am more concerned about how i can make it mass daily and be a better person than whih day i should wear my best cloth pple please! |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by thesilent1(m): 11:46am On Jun 07, 2007 |
bari kade, that was a nice contribution! i hope we remember that we are not AGAINST each other but "iron sharpens iron" and so i am happy to see the various contributions to this |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 11:56am On Jun 07, 2007 |
@viee, viee: Monday was not given as the first day. viee: I don't remember people complaining about 'arguments' before now; and I think it would help to simply ignore threads that you don't feel inclined to discuss. Besides, the daily mass thing of Catholicism is NOWHERE outlined in the Bible, and trying to make any mention here about it is your own way of offering your own arguments. If you have been carefully following the discussions of this subject right from another thread on the same topic, you would shake your head or even laugh louder at what Bobbyaf called the Catholic Church - "Babylon". I hope that can put a smile on your daily mass. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 12:00pm On Jun 07, 2007 |
@thesilent1, thesilent1: I am also happy to observe the various contributions - even yours as well. I am not against anybody; and my posts were made to both debate and discuss only one thing: The Sabbath Law was not made for Christians. Sabbatarians often argue that Christians should be seventh-day believers - and they argue for their case as best they could. In the same way, I offer my inputs as best I can to counter that idea; because I'm persuaded that the apostles would not have repeatedly treated the issue if it really didn't matter. Cheers. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by thesilent1(m): 12:04pm On Jun 07, 2007 |
i am in YOUR camp on this issue as well. its just nice and good to see a healthy "discussion" instead some of the nasties i have seen in some other threads. keep it up sir! |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 12:06pm On Jun 07, 2007 |
@thesilent1, I'm also somewhat concerned about the way issues are now being discussed on this motherboard. However, many blessings to you as we do our bit to make sense in ours. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by viee(f): 12:55pm On Jun 07, 2007 |
bari i read everything, and may be it is you that just refused to read through my own post rather u choose to see what u wanted to see mass is a nomenclature hjust like saturday is a nomenclature my dear i dnt attack pple post for your information i have a different kind of orientation obvously and im glad i do as regards what someone said about whatever, it dosnt bother me really i am focused in my course and what some person said will not disturb me as i said, i wish i can make it to mass everday, i willbe a more complete person just reading the first pargragh of my post again, it could help if anything, try and ignore the second, since u have problem with it |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 1:06pm On Jun 07, 2007 |
@viee, viee: Okay, I'm sorry. No big deal for me to apologise where I get people wrong. viee: What does mass stand for viz-a-vis Saturday? Our orientations may be different, no doubt; but I'm glad I wasn't attacking anyone here. viee: It shouldn't bother you, actually. As long as we don't silently acknowledge the deception. viee: Well, I'd have no problem with any mass as a person's choice; as long as they're not trying to dribble it round the Bible as if it has any Biblical basis. viee: I really don't have any problem with it; and it's already been ignored before you asked! |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by viee(f): 1:19pm On Jun 07, 2007 |
@ bari kool |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by thesilent1(m): 1:33pm On Jun 07, 2007 |
see people, we CAN live together in peace even if its just the virtual world! |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by Bobbyaf(m): 6:49am On Jun 08, 2007 |
@ barikade (a) their worship emphasizes creation - the OLD creation. Yes its old but that doesn't mean that God doesn't want it remembered. Listen as david reminds us of that fact, 2 The works of the LORD are great, Studied by all who have pleasure in them, 4 He has made His wonderful works to be remembered, [b]Ps. 111[/b] The Psalmist continues, in chapter 19:, 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork. 2 Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language Where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line[a] has gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world. Its clear as day that God's work in all its forms were meant to be remembered. Since the seventh-day sabbath is a memorial of the works of creation God expects us to keep it in accordance with His requirements. God's unchanging law like Himself demands it. It is for this reason that they should look unto Jesus, who brought in a better hope; so that through the Redemptive titles of His blood, we may now be called the children of God; and rightfully address God as FATHER. All that is good and appreciated by me, and I totally agree with you that we must look to Jesus, but that doesn't change the fact, that it was Jesus Himself who said that whosoever teaches men to break any of His father's commandments, including the sabbath command would be called least in the kingdom. Jesus said not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away first, and all be fulfilled. No one can get around the simple and straightforward teachings of Jesus. It doesn't matter how many texts you bring to the fora to support erroroneous teachings. Truth will always win over error. That is why when we celebrate the Lord's Supper, we do it in remembrance of HIM ("this do in remembrance of ME" - 1 Cor. 11:24 & 25 ). What better day to celebrate it than on God's holy and dedicated day of rest and worship called the seventh-day sabbath. There is absolutely no text that supports the notion that Sunday was the new dedicated day for celebrating the Lord's supper. We are not here speaking of remembering a day as Moses commanded Israel ("Remember the Sabbath day" - Exo. 20:8 ). It was not Moses who wrote the 10 commandments, but God Himself on Mount Sinai. It was never Moses who blessed and sanctified the creation sabbath which was placed in the centre of the decalogue, and that is the crux of the matter that all Sunday-gathering christians have missed. Moses simply reminded them what they had already heard from the mountain. This again should remind us of Paul's caution that Christians should not be judged in respect of these festivities: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, of the sabbath days" (Col. 2:16). Not at all. It refers only to the sabbaths which were "a shadow of things to come" and not to the seventh-day Sabbath. There were seven yearly holy days, or holidays, in ancient Israel which were also called sabbaths. These were in addition to, or "beside the sabbaths of the Lord" (Leviticus 23:38), or seventh-day Sabbath. These all foreshadowed, or pointed to, the cross and ended at the cross. God's seventh-day Sabbath was made before sin entered, and therefore could foreshadow nothing about deliverance from sin. That's why Colossians chapter 2 differentiates and specifically mentions the sabbaths that were "a shadow." These seven yearly sabbaths which were abolished are listed in Leviticus chapter 23. You're such a comical character. Hear you "challenge" anyone to offer answers to your weak assumptions and yet YOU ran away from the 17 challenges I offered in the other thread. Even when you tried to play tennis with history in this thread, stimulus was on hand to set your misconceptions straight. I don't mind being called comical for Christ, but the challenge is yet to be met. If anything those so-called 17 challenges were nothing short of the twisting of the scriptures to prove nothing. Its easy to quote scriptures, its quite another matter to use them in context. So far none of you have used scriptures in context to support your Sunday doctrine, but instead I have presented straight forward references to show that God's holy, spiritual, laws are fixed in time and eternity. Is it any wonder Daniel predicted that the "little horn" power would think to change God's times and laws. You're just being used as a pawn for the RCC to push their agenda of Sunday sacredness globally. I hope to God for your sake that your eyes will be opened soon enough. I haven't read so many people arguing for a "CHANGE" of sabbath observation from Saturday to Sunday. What we have consistently been speaking of here is that "the Sabbath Law was NOT made for Christians" - and rather not about what day it should be observed by Christians at all. And I suppose the disciples and apostles weren't christians, and that they didn't keep the sabbath? I gave you so many obvious and indisputable references that I now am beginning to wonder if you're amnetic. Let me refresh your memory a bit: "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures." Acts 17:2. "Paul and his company , went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down." Acts 13:13, 14. "And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither." Acts 16:13. "And he [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Acts 18:4. The "them" in the phrase ", went in unto them" consisted of jewish and gentile christians. There were no separate places of worship. You should recall that it was Saul the persecutor who hauled some of those same christians from the temples before his conversion. The Greeks mentioned above were not jewish so what would they be found doing in a jewish place of worship, were it not for the fact that it was their custom as well to celebrate the seventh-day sabbath of rest. Listen: "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath." "And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." Acts 13:42, 44 "And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Acts 18:4. The apostles in the early New Testament church not only obeyed God's Sabbath command, but they also taught the converted Gentiles to worship on Sabbath. Never once do they refer to Sunday as a holy day. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by Bobbyaf(m): 8:41am On Jun 08, 2007 |
@ Barikade @Bobbyaf, , LOL, my my, Bobbyaf is mixing up issues! That was a good one! It is always safe to keep within the declarations of Scripture and not interpolate them with human reasoning (eisegesis). And here are a few of such interpolations: Thats subjective on your part. Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 07:56:28 AM It never had to because it was pretty obvious that she stole the forbiden fruit. If thats not stealing I don't know what it is. Surface reading isn't enough. One must look beyond for deeper meaning, and that act in itself doesn't mean one is interpolating. Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 07:56:28 AM Yea, yea, yada yada yada, but the bible didn't have to be overly decriptive for any blind bat to see all that, I am simply bring ing out themes that you couldn't see, or have seen but felt obliged to complain anyway. Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 07:56:28 AM The bible simply says, and of course you don't have a mind to dig for meaning way beyond what is expected of you. Where is that gift of understanding and knowledge of the bible? My reason for approaching the account in that manner was to show the board that God's law is eternal in its principles, and defines sin in any dispensation the same way. So although sinning was confined around the forbidden tree in the sense of doing or not doing something, there were far greater forces at work besides the act itself, that involved their minds as humans. If one were to apply the same rule to your own case, would it be fair to say that you have placed another god before the Creator God by choosing to make exemptions to the Law of the Sabbath where the OT made no room for such exemptions? It wouldn't be fair to even think it. Why, because your thought about how the jews might have been led to keep the sabbath in that geographical context, and how we as SDAs are asked to keep the same sabbath in our time and situation, is nothing short of ridiculous. There are so many factors that led to the kinds of restrictions and limitations in those days compared to our time. Those restrictions came at a time in Israel's experience when they were spiritually immature and stiff-necked. We now have their experience to learn from. If it does not apply, why so? And if you can narrow the rule in your own case, why stretch it wider in applying it to Adam and Eve even though God did not once accuse them of what you just did? See the above! Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 07:56:28 AM At the time the sabbath was given it could not be rightly viewed as a commandment since it was given as a gift from God. Jesus said that "the sabbath was made for man, " Remember that sin had not yet manifested itself. The same argument could be said of marriage. It was introduced to both humans as well, but not as a commandment as such. After sin the specific law against adultery was enforced. Likewise a specific law against sabbath breaking was enforced. Bear in mind too that the sabbath was not sanctified for God, but for man. God doesn't need to keep the day holy, but we need to, since keeping a day holy as God expects requires that we too must live holy lives. I have always agreed that keeping the sabbath, or the moral law fo rthat matter cannot make a person holy, but when a person is holy by God's sanctifying grace then that one will keep God's holy requirements. In our sanctified walk with Jesus Christ we must strive for holiness. I have not come across any Scripture that says God gave the Ten Commandments to Adam and Eve Not in the manner you're expecting to find them. However, their principles did exist for both humans as well. They might not have been pronounced, but they certainly defined sin then. Absence of proof doesn't conclude proof of absence. The lack of the written code doesn't mean that principles against evil couldn't have existed. All I am saying is that when we look at the principles that govern the moral law of God today or whenever they were encoded, and look at the decisions that faced both Adam and Eve then, we can clearly see the same line of principles back then. I raised the issue of Eve becoming Adam's god because that is exactly what happened. He placed his wife before God's command and will. He was selfish and only thought about the possibilty of losing his precious Eve. As if God couldn't mak ehim another woman. He knew what she did with the fruit. He was forced with a decision to stand for God or die with Eve, and he chose the latter. Thus he sinned, not because he was decieved, but because he chose Eve over God. Eating the fruit was just the act, but his ability to judge correctly was affected by his selfish love. When they sinned, neither Adam nor his wife Eve were once accused of being thieves or having stolen anything. While Eve was said to have transgressed; it is reported that Adam was NOT deceived (1 Tim. 2:14). Nowhere did God accuse them of having broken the Ten Commandments; so it is unreasonable to read one's biases into the express declarations of Scripture. John says that "sin is transgression of God's law" , obvioulsy there can only be one law whose set of principles existed nonetheless. Some 3000 years after that set of principles were transcripted on tables of stones to serve as a guide to a rebellios set of hebrews. In Deuteronomy 5 when Moses reiterated the Ten Commandments, he specifically mentioned that the Law was given to Israel and to none else: "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day." (vs. 2-3). Its obvious that that covenant was not the same that was made with previous patriarchs in times past. Its also obvious that God had called no other nation but that of the hebrews, but that act in and of itself doesn't prove that the sabbath was only confined to them. Its always dangerous to quote out of context. God didn't make that covenant with none other because that covenant was unique. Never before had God given His law on tables before. We could argue that there were so many things that were unique to that experience of recieving God's law under such thunderous and majestic display, that Moses had to sink it in, This was no ordinary experience comparatively speaking with reference to any experience before this one. Again, the fact that the Sabbath Law was not given to other nations is emphasized in Deut. 4:6-8 -- "And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" The fact that others didn't have the statutes and judgements of God as given then didn't mean that other nations were not supposed to know about them. It can be easily argued that God intended to do it one step at a time, together with the fact that God wanted them to see how special a vessel they were for having the divine oracles of God. I am of the view that God is no respecter of persons, and He loves all races of people. I also believe that God intended to use israel as a vessel of His light and truth to reach the gentiles who were afar off, and who needed to come to a knowledge of God. Look at Nineveh for example. God sent Jonah to warn them of His impending judgements, and they repented and served God. Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon eventually repented and served the God of heaven. Israel failed then to be that witness. God has drafted the very gentiles into the olive tree along with the faithful hebrews to now preach the gospel they should have preached. The covenant that was made with Abraham was meant for all races, It said that all tribes of the earth would be blessed through the seed of Abraham, being Christ. In fact he himself was not even a jew, but the father of all nations. When Moses in Exo. 20:8-11 gave the Sabbath Law to Israel, he explained its basis as pointing to God's sanctifying that Day after He had created the world. Not once did Moses hint that the Ten Commandments were given previously to anyone; nor did Moses explain any of the other 9 commandments on God's creative activity. The sabbath was not new to the children of Israel before Sinai. God tested them about proper sabbath keeping with manna. See exudus 16, 22 And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” 24 So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. 25 Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.” Logically the sabbath was not just invented at that point in time for Moses to have expected them to be so careful. Moses reminded them about the nearness of the sabbath, and chose to prepare them for it. Obviously, they had forgotten its importance in Egypt to have needed a reminder. 27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day. Notice what God said to Moses about keeping His laws and commandments? How long refuse you to keep my laws implies that the sabbath command as some suggest was not just invented for the manna experience. In other words if this were the very first time that Moses was implementing the sabbath command then the phrase "how long refuse ye to keep my laws" would have been an unreasonable one. That would be like a sudden imposition on a people who were not familiar with sabbath keeping to just up and start keeping a day just like that. Thos who knew better were expected to do better, but their long sojourn in Egypt and after exposing themselves with the Egyptian practises, made them spiritually negligeble. After the Ten Commandments were given, they were also explained in detail as to their stipulations in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. That is where the question of stipulations come into the pciture. And when you outline every precept of the Law or Ten Commandments, you will begin to see how utterly impossible it is for anyone to be justified by the Law - whether in the past, present or future (Rom. 3:28 & Gal. 2:16). That was explained already, and as for being justified by the law SDAs don't teach that. We know that only grace can save, but we also know that the law points out sin. Once again your use of Paul's writings is ou tof context because you always fail to show how Paul qualifies each of his arguments surrounding the law. Not in all cases does Paul address the moral law. Sometimes he deals with issues surrounding the ceremonial laws that were being forced upon the gentile christians by the jewish converts to christianity, who felt that salvation somehow had to do with rituals and ceremonies. Don't confuse us with them. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 11:06am On Jun 08, 2007 |
@Bobbyaf, Bobbyaf: If God wanted us to set our minds on the old, He would have said so in the NT. But the strain of the NT points clearly to the NEW creation, not the old. Bobbyaf: Very good, Bobbyaf. That is why time and again I have asked you to go back to God's Word and keep the Sabbath according to its stipulations and make no excuses for your exemptions. Failing to do that is hypocrisy. It would not speak well of you to agree that the Sabbath should be according to God's requirements, while you conveniently cut corners for your exemptions! Bobbyaf: If you cannot understand the meaning of Jesus fulfilling the Law for us, then you would strictly have to adhere to what the Law says! Do you see that your exemptions are seriously contradicting the fact that "not one jot or tittle should pass from the law"?? You cannot quote Scripture and agree with what it says and yet come back several times to make exemptions where God made no such exemptions! Bobbyaf: The simple and straight forward teachings of the Lord Jesus is what I have presented. Your error was introduced through the back door asking for exemptions where God made none in the Sabbath Law. Indeed, truth wins over error; especially the age-old error in the SDA! Bobbyaf: Your argument has been to remember the Sabbath DAY; and not to remember the LORD HIMSELF! My rejoinder was to clearly point out that Christians are asked to remember the Lord, and not the Sabbath. There is no text to show that Saturday was the designated day for keeping the Lord's Supper either. Bobbyaf: Arguing that it was not Moses who wrote the 10 commandments is reasoning out of context. Why? Because the commandments are still called the Law of Moses! Bobbyaf: No Israelite could keep the Law until it had been ratified by blood! Heb. 9:17-20 "For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you." You would need to go back and study the Law, see what it says and how it reads, before running off with every mention of a 'sabbath' you have failed to understand. The fact that Moses ratified the Law of the Sabbath by blood under a testament (or covenant) demonstrates that Christians are not Jews who live by the old covenant. That is why we are not yoked under a Sabbath Law which no one can keep! You have said so yourself that no one can keep the sabbath law perfectly ( https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-55857.0.html#msg1165796 ); and yet you contradicted that by saying that not one jot or tittle should pass from the Law as Jesus said! This double standard in your posts simply remind me of what Ignatius said in his epistle to the Magnesians (c. A.D. 110): "It is absurd to have Jesus Christ on the lips, and at the same time live like a Jew." Bobbyaf: How many seventh-day sabbath laws do you have in the OT? |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 11:07am On Jun 08, 2007 |
@Bobbyaf, Bobbyaf: Was Paul speaking of yearly sabbaths or sabbath days in Col. 2:16? Even if I should grant your arguments for the yearly sabbaths, it still would bring us back to throwing the mind again to the old creation - something which simple has no place in the new covenant fro Christians. When the Lord Jesus went to the Cross, the victory purchased there by His blood for us was not to bring us back to an old creation system or remembrance; but rather, everywhere it is mentioned, we read that Christians have been brought into the New covenant, including the blessing of the NEW creation (2 Cor. 5:17 & Gal. 6:15). Not one verse in the NT argues for Christians to remember the Sabbath day; rather, we are asked to remember the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (1 Cor. 11:24 & 25). Bobbyaf: No, I don't mind your slobbers as well; and if there's any challenge to be met, please go over to the other thread and proffer reasonable answers to my 17 challenges. Bobbyaf: In very simple terms, that's a convenient way of sobbing that you had no answers for straightforward questions. Bobbyaf: Which is still hugely missing from your posts. Bobbyaf:. Both with Scripture and historical antecedents, abundant proofs have been proffered for why the Sabbath Law of a Saturday has no place for the NT Christian. If anything at all, you've been arguing for a Sabbath Law and yet breaking it by your excuses of "exemptions" where the Law made no room for such exemptions. Bobbyaf: I'm neither an RCC or one of their pawns, thank you. God's times and laws would not be affected by those who think to offer exemptions for why the same Laws they cannot keep. Bobbyaf: First, the same disciples and apostles who were Christians argued against the keeping of a Sabbath Law that did not justify anyone in the sight of God. (Rom. 3:20; Gal. 2:16). Second, they offered no exemptions for anyone who wanted to keep the Sabbath Law; even going so far as to say that anyone who wanted to do so was indebted to keep the whole Law (Gal. 3:10 & 5:3, 4; James 2:10). That would definitely include the stipulations that the SDA have often been excusing! Third, history bears record of the Church Fathers who wrote their observations of what the early Christians did. There is no denying the fact of the testimony that the early Christians did not keep the Sabbath, as stimulus has outlined for you earlier: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-55857.0.html#msg1167803 Whichever way you want to look at it, it brings you back to one point: your arguments are punctured by the very fact of your excusing the stipulations of the Sabbath Law with your exemptions. Bobbyaf: The apostles of the New Testament did not teach Christians to live like Jews under an OT Sabbath Law. Paul vigorously argued for the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ as the singular effect that justifies a believer in the sight of God; for no one can be justified by observing the OT Law. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 11:08am On Jun 08, 2007 |
@Bobbyaf, Bobbyaf: There is not a single verse that accuses Adam or Eve of the things you alleged against them. Applying a non-existent "deeper meaning" to accuse people of what they're not guilty of is exactly what legalistic cultists do. Please do keep pressing this point; and if you must, please show us where in the Bible Adam and Eve were called thieves! Bobbyaf: I didn't see where your vampire descriptions came from. Do you mind simply stating the verse that called Adam and Eve "theives" in just the way I offered the verses that stated the contrary? Bobbyaf: If I didn't do any digging, I would not have offered verses. The problem here is that you allege what you have no verses for against Adam or Eve. Is that a perculiar gift of your eisegesis? Bobbyaf: Applying any principle in order to falsely accuse people is morally wrong and intellectually dishonest. Until you can clearly provide the verses that named Adam and Eve as "thieves", your application is outside God's Word. Bobbyaf: As far as we can read, the Bible simply says that there is ONLY ONE MANNER OF LAW for both Jews and sojourners: "Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God" (Lev. 24:22). So, if God's word says so, and you count it "ridiculous", we can now begin to see the double standard you have been artfully applying. Bobbyaf: Whatever restrictions and time you're seeking, there was no change in the stipulations of the Sabbath Law. Are you not the same chap who offered a white-lipped quote of Jesus' words that "not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law"? The experiences to learn from should simply lead you back to the stipulations of the same Law you've been arguing for all this time! Bobbyaf: Oh, I see. So where does that leave your earlier assumption that Gen. 2:3 was a commandment? Meanwhile, did Moses treat Exo. 20:8-11 as a gift or as a commandment? You're simply knotting yourself all the more. I warned you from the onset to carefully go back and see the difference between GENESIS and EXODUS. No wonder you kept evdaing the 17 questions I offered you with the lame excuse that they twisted scripture! Bobbyaf: Quaint. So, the commandment was non-existent in Genesis, and only came into the picture in Exodus? Now, if God did not command it unto Adam and Eve, your whole argument is merely an exercise in futility in as much as God did not ask us to keep the Law in Exodus. Again, since the 10 commandments were not given until AFTER sin manifested itself, how would you have attempted to apply Exo. 20:15 and called Eve a "thief"? This is why I have tried to caution that you cannot apply a Law on a people who predated that Law! Bobbyaf:. There was no commandment in GENESIS to keep a Sabbath Law - you hinted that yourself! If you take your argument of a Sabbath Law from Exodus, then you would have to follow the stipulations that came along with that Sabbath Law, and not cut corners with your exemptions. Bobbyaf: You're mixing up Law and Grace. In one statement, the Law does not justify anyone before God - and it doesn't matter whether it was the Sabbath Law or the moral law. Only in Jesus Christ do we find our justification - and that is the strain of the NT. Bobbyaf: For all of that, not one verse (directly or indirectly) accuses Eve of being a "thief" or of having "stolen" anything. God's Word is clear, and I offered the verses to show what God said of exactly about their sin. It is rather silly to assume that God would have given any commandments which "might not have been pronounced"! If God did not pronounce any commandments, it is unethical to pronounce one on His behalf. Bobbyaf: There is not a single verse that supports what you have just stated. Not one. The Bible is clear on what exactly happened; and it does not remotely suggest that Adam saw his wife as his god in place of God Himself. If you cannot provide a verse for this, throw it back to the cultic camp where it came from. And if you must keep making these false accusations, then we should assume that your "professional" work has become your own god; because you have chosen to make exemptions for the strick Sabbath Law where the Law made no excuses! Fair enough? |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 11:08am On Jun 08, 2007 |
@Bobbyaf, Bobbyaf: Could you then find me the verses for the exemptions you made for the set of principles of that one law? Bobbyaf: If it's always dangerous to quote out of context, you just did that very thing. If the covenants were not the same, you don't need to swirl around and try to make them the same for a set of people who were not under that covenant! You simply can't go round what is stated in Deut. 5:2-3. Bobbyaf: What made that covenant uniquely for Israel - the experiences of the "thuderous and majestic display"; or what the Commandments said? Was Moses speaking about the thunders in Deuteronomy 5; or was he reiterating the Ten Commandments? You are looking for loopholes to explain this issue away; and such an attitude has constantly been one of your problems. Bobbyaf: How were other nations supposed to know what was not decalred unto them? If they knew about it, then there would have been no need for Moses to make his boast in Deut. 4:6-8. Bobbyaf: I have already considered the cases of Nineveh and Nebuchadnezzar when I was studying the Sabbath. Did you note carefully that in neither cases were the Sabbath Law applicable? To make a case for one would simply mean that they kept the whole Law. Can you make a case that they actually did? Bobbyaf: Please, Bobbyaf, don't mix issues up. Were the Hebrews under the old covenant expected to preach a new covenant Gospel? Your story-telling is amazing! Gentiles are not grafted into the olive tree to go preach a Sabbath Law with all of its stipulations. "For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious" (2 Cor. 3:10 & 11). Bobbyaf: Did the Abrahamic covenant mention the Sabbath Law that you're mixing up with that found in Exodus and Deuteronomy? Bobbyaf: Which again brings us back to the oft-repeated question of the stipulations for the Sabbath Law. The Sabbath was new to the children of Israel in as much as there was no hint of their keeping it at all while they were in Egypt. If they were familiar with the Sabbath before Moses was sent as their deliverer, they would not be asking questions about what they already knew! Bobbyaf: It wasn't a case of their having "forgotten" its importance in Egypt. At least, they didn't forget the LORD that they were calling upon while still in Egypt. The point was that the Israelites had no idea of a Sabbath Law, let alone its importance! Could you please offer me a verse that showed they kept, or knew about, the Sabbath while they were in Egypt? Bobbyaf: Let me call your attention to a line in Exo. 16:23 - "And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD. . ." This is that which - when did God first intimate the rest of the Sabbath to Moses to pass unto the Israelites? Was it while they were still in Egypt under Pharaoh's tyranny; or after they left Egypt? Is there any indication that they were keeping the Sabbath while still in Egypt to have warranted their question? You see, back in verses 4 & 5, God intimated the issue of the Sabbath in order that He may prove the hearts of Israelites whom He had redeemed from Egypt: "that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." For as yet, He had not given them the Law; but only indicated that He would first test their hearts in readiness to receive the Sinaitic law. There is no indication that the Law was received while the Israelites were still in Egypt; and so, they could not have even tried to keep a Sabbath law that they knew nothing about. Bobbyaf: The Hebrews were not spiritually negligent. The Bible teaches that they called upon the LORD, and He answered (Exo. 3:7). Bobbyaf: You're hoping to be an officer in charge to account my use of Paul's argument as out of context. Sorry, I used them precisely to point out the fact that the SDA has many times contradicted themselves; and not even Paul made room for any exemptions of the Sabbath Law. Bobbyaf: I haven't confused the issues of the Law wherever they were quoted. I offered questions, which you evaded in order to make excuses for your exemptions. It's either you seek your justification in Jesus Christ alone and not adding your copped out excuses for a Sabbath Law you cannot keep or sustain; or you stand in the same Law and face the consequences of violating its stipulations by your so-called "professional" exemptions. You just can't have it both ways. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by dinnerm(f): 12:04pm On Jun 08, 2007 |
its sunday,but some believe its saturday,because of the belief and understanding of God's Word.anyday could be ok.as long as its God u'r serving. |
| Re: Saturday Or Sunday by barikade: 6:37pm On Jun 08, 2007 |
dinner m: You're so succinct and straight to the point. God bless. |
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