^^^ On that thread earlier in the year you praised Roberts Liardon who we then pointed out was a homosexual and I will repose a question we posed to you then.

Roberts Liardon and the other confessed homosexual Ted haggard are "born again" by your definition, if they do not "repent" (not just ask for forgiveness), will they "go to heaven" ----- based on what I believe is your understanding of the Bible on homosexuality?

And to show why the question above is once again apt on this thread, this is what you posted earlier on this thread:

Joagbaje:

@poster,

Of course God forgives each time a Christian ask for forgiveness.

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

But you can leave beyond the level of falling and confessing. You didn't state if you're born again or not. If you're not born again, you don't have business asking for forgiveness because God will not hear it. Forgiveness is only for a born again person. But if you're born again already and you keep falling into sin. It can only be because you've not allow the word of God to richly dwell in you. You need to grow up spiritually by feeding voraciously on the word.

Psalms 119:11
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. 

Matthew 22:29
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

 1 Peter 2:2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

You need to join a bible teaching church fully. Most churches have a structure by which converts are raised to maturity. But if all these are in place already and you still have challenges in the flesh. Let us know. There is something else to deal with. This goes beyond just confession,God doesn't really want you to keep falling and confessing.  

So Liardon and Haggard can keep doing it as long as they ask for forgiveness everytime ------ or having risen to become pastors, "ministers", "Men of God", they did not allow "the word to dwell richly in them"?

Joagbaje:

Image123
What you call poison is the gospel truth.  You need to grow up a little in your understanding of righteousness. It is not the wrong doing of a man that makes him a sinner. And praying for forgiveness over such does not make a man right with God.

If a sinner is right with God just by asking for forgiveness , why did jesus have to come? 

Let me ask you a question. If does nice things, without doing bad. Even though he hasn't received Jesus , is he saved?   

To the first bolded.
We should realise that we were all sinners by birth and by deed. You already agree with the birth part, so to the deed. Well, all HAVE sinned. All, do you believe that? Also, Jesus said your words(a deed) can CONDEMN you i.e not just your birth. The Lord also said there are things that make a human being unclean i.e a sinner apart from birth.
Matthew 15v

Joagbaje:

Image123
What you call poison is the gospel truth.  You need to grow up a little in your understanding of righteousness. It is not the wrong doing of a man that makes him a sinner. And praying for forgiveness over such does not make a man right with God.

If a sinner is right with God just by asking for forgiveness , why did jesus have to come? 

Let me ask you a question. If does nice things, without doing bad. Even though he hasn't received Jesus , is he saved?   

To the first bolded.
We should realise that we were all sinners by birth and by deed. You already agree with the birth part, so to the deed. Well, all HAVE sinned. All, do you believe that? Also, Jesus said your words(a deed) can CONDEMN you i.e not just your birth. The Lord also said there are things that make a human being unclean i.e a sinner apart from birth.
Matthew 15v19,20-evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, thefts, lying, blasphemies;

Joagbaje:

Image123
What you call poison is the gospel truth.  You need to grow up a little in your understanding of righteousness. It is not the wrong doing of a man that makes him a sinner. And praying for forgiveness over such does not make a man right with God.

If a sinner is right with God just by asking for forgiveness , why did jesus have to come? 

Let me ask you a question. If does nice things, without doing bad. Even though he hasn't received Jesus , is he saved?   

To the first bolded.
We should realise that we were all sinners by birth and by deed. You already agree with the birth part, so to the deed. Well, all HAVE sinned. All, do you believe that? Also, Jesus said your words(a deed) can CONDEMN you i.e not just your birth. The Lord also said there are things that make a human being unclean i.e a sinner apart from birth.
Matthew 15v19,20-evil thoughts,fornications, thefts, lying, blasphemies; these things defile a man.

And praying for forgiveness over such does not make a man right with God.If a sinner is right with God just by asking for forgiveness , why did jesus have to come? Let me ask you a question. If does nice things, without doing bad. Even though he hasn't received Jesus , is he saved?

Repentance and forgiveness of sins go hand in hand. I didn't say they're the same. God forgives, you repent. A sinner is made right with God by seeking/asking for forgiveness through the right channel. It's a channel of faith in the Messiah's atoning blood. Jesus came to atone/pay for/redeem us from our sins. He came to make an end of transgressions, that's what the blood of animals could not do.

^^^ There is an important point hidden in this post. When a "not born-again" person seeks forgiveness from God  ---- which God are we talking about? Let us take the opening poster, it seemed clear enough that he was seeking forgiveness from the same God that Christians call God.

Now the point is this: when a person "not born-again" calls on the Christian God for forgiveness with an honest heart, is that person not by so doing acknowledging that God as God. And does one really think God will still cast such a person out?

Or rather perhaps we need other ways to look at the situation: at the least asking for forgiveness might be the beginning of the process of the person being born again; some would say that for the person to seek forgiveness from the Christian God in the first place he was probably already regenerated/born-again.

In the previous thread ttalks (I think it was) identified Joagbaje's problem: he does not really know what it means to be born again; he thinks that a person makes himself born again and that it is simply by "confessing" i.e. speaking out loud that Jesus is Lord. Well, a lot of false teachers do that but, when we apply the test of fruit, we have good reason to doubt that they are truly born again.

^^That's a beauty of a point hoping Joagbaje could also see it. Plus to that the RIGHT channel. One may be seeking for the true God in the grave, or through some sorry man. But we have only One channel/mediator, Jesus Christ the Righteous. Why go to scream for forgiveness on the broadway when The Way is there.

@Image:

"through some sorry man"?? Pls remember the "sorry" dude is a MOG. Which means he is deserving of your worship.


Seriously though, these people can't/don't understand since their minds are darkened. They are in it as they say "for prosperity". Decisionism is their choice as opposed to the Biblical position of "election". God chooses who He will and brings them to Himself as Christ said. Paths, timing, manner differ but they ARE God's work, not products of instanteousness decision backed by saying rubbish as tongues and being part of a cult headed by a charismatic p.imp bearing the title MOG

Brother PRINCE4CHRIST, I am in the same boat as you. It's even because of this continual relapse I stopped going to church. I know that we are not super human but how comes my spritual life is too brief, I also find myself not enjoying it also. I am currently in a spirtual abyss.

PRINCE4CHRIST:

I need a pastor to interpret this for me pls!
   I found myself asking God for forgiveness daily because each day will never pass unless i commit one sin or the other. Now i begin to imagine myself, how can i ask God to for give me and commit that same crime tomorrow Will He really Forgive?

If we are honest, all of us commit one sin or other each day --- see, even in a lot of things that we post here and our attitude in posting. It may be that you are referring to "more serious" sin; nevertheless, the first thing is indeed to turn to God for forgiveness, then to repent, resolve to avoid the sinful actions and to keep seeking the help of God in/through prayer, study, consciousness of His presence at all times; fellowshipping with others may also help. Of course we are not perfect and will still often fall short but thankfully we can seek forgiveness and even the Lord's prayer has a recognition of the need for and availability of forgiveness.

emofine:

Brother PRINCE4CHRIST, I am in the same boat as you. It's even because of this continual relapse I stopped going to church. I know that we are not super human but how comes my spritual life is too brief, I also find myself not enjoying it also. I am currently in a spirtual abyss.

In addition to what I wrote in response to PRINCE4CHRIST, I would say it probably does not help to stop going to church ------- although this depends considerably on the church. If you can find a more soberly disposed church and one not dominated by the prosperity "gospel", it may help you to rediscover that which is missing.

Finally, I am only advising because I have perspectives ---- not because I am particularly better than either of you. 

@Enigma and Image 123

Enigma:

^^^ There is an important point hidden in this post. When a "not born-again" person seeks forgiveness from God  ---- which God are we talking about? Let us take the opening poster, it seemed clear enough that he was seeking forgiveness from the same God that Christians call God.

Enigma that's not the point let's be honest here pls.you should have read my counsel to the poster with open heart. I'm a soul winner and my first responsibility is to ensure the salvation of a counselee. Before any other thing.

Every religious person believe there is a God in heaven , either Muslim or orunmila and Ifa worshiper. And they believe that their religion is only a point of contact to the Great God of Heaven. So if such a person ask the God of heaven forgiveness for the wrong doing. Is he accepted? Is he saved. Can a man have relationship with God without Jesus? . Can God forgive a man's wrong doings without jesus.? Is there another shorthand cut into the grace of God without the blood of christ?

You seem to be dodging my question. By asking God for forgiveness, has the unsaved man been justified? Without being born again and recieving the life of christ.

Image 123

Image123:

^^That's a beauty of a point hoping Joagbaje could also see it. Plus to that the RIGHT channel. One may be seeking for the true God in the grave, or through some sorry man. But we have only One channel/mediator, Jesus Christ the Righteous. Why go to scream for forgiveness on the broadway when The Way is there.

Pls answer the question in a direct way. It will help me know your understanding of salvation.

Short exercises for you:

Before Jesus' death and resurrection, was it every Jew that obtained salvation ? If not which ones did not and why not?

Also: before Jesus' death and resurrection, did any person from any other nation apart from Israel obtain salvation? If so, how?

Today, if a Moslem/Hindu etc offends you and asks for forgiveness, will you forgive them or not; are you required to forgive them or not? If they offend the Christian God and ask Him for forgiveness, what is He likely to do?

Go and think about those.

Enigma:

Today, if a Moslem/Hindu etc offends you and asks for forgiveness, will you forgive them or not; are you required to forgive them or not? If they offend the Christian God and ask Him for forgiveness, what is He likely to do?

Gbam!

Joagbaje
Enigma's post highlighted by InesQor is the GBAM.
And i thought i was quite direct here below? if not, restate your question pls.

Image123:

Repentance and forgiveness of sins go hand in hand. I didn't say they're the same. God forgives, you repent. A sinner is made right with God by seeking/asking for forgiveness through the right channel. It's a channel of faith in the Messiah's atoning blood. Jesus came to atone/pay for/redeem us from our sins. He came to make an end of transgressions, that's what the blood of animals could not do.

Btw, hope you now agree that God forgives sinners also?

Ahn ahn. Even the thought of it is senseless. How can you say God does not forgive sinners? 

What is the scriptural backing for this, Joagbaje?

image123

Image123:

Joagbaje
Enigma's post highlighted by InesQor is the GBAM.

WHICH GBAMING IS THAT? HE IS NOT GBAMU ANYTHING!

My question is not addressed directly. My point is, that it's only a born again God forgives. A sinner needs salvation by coming into christ and not by asking God pardon or forgiveness for his, "errors" but If you claim anybody who ask God for forgiveness is pardoned without necessarily being saved. I'm asking you, if for example a Moslem always ask God for forgiveness for a "wrong" evey time is he pardoned ?. Or a juju man Every religion believes in God.

The answer you gave is not direct yes or no.

. A sinner is made right with God by seeking/asking for forgiveness through the right channel. It's a channel of faith in the Messiah's atoning blood. Jesus came to atone/pay for/redeem us from our sins. He came to make an end of transgressions, that's what the blood of animals could not.

@Enigma

You are busy giving me assignment without direct answer to my question.

Enigma:

Short exercises for you.
Before Jesus' death and resurrection, was it every Jew that obtained salvation ? If not which ones did not and why not?

[Also: before Jesus' death and resurrection, did any person from any other nation apart from Israel obtain salvation? If so, how?

They were still under the law, their sins was according to the law and not according to the gospel. Of course they were forgiven according to the laws of Moses . Forgiveness was available . But I'm talking about now under the new testament. Let's deal with now, under the blood of Jesus.

Today, if a Moslem/Hindu etc offends you and asks for forgiveness, will you forgive them or not; are you required to forgive them or not?

Enigma , you're deviating. You should say "YES or NO"

If they offend the Christian God and ask Him for forgiveness, what is He likely to do?

And my point is, they didn't offend the Christian God. They are sinners by birth until they receive Jesus. Their bad deed is not what makes them sinners. But the sin nature they inherited from Adam.Their bad deed does not make a difference. People ask God for forgiveness ignorantly thinking it makes up for not making a decision for christ. They will still go to hell anyhow. 

A SINNER CANNOT COMMIT SIN.

@InessQor

InesQor:

Ahn ahn. Even the thought of it is senseless. How can you say God does not forgive sinners?  

What a sinner need is salvation. There is no bases for his forgiveness if he is not born again. The prayer he needs is not  for his "wrong deed" to be forgiven but for him to be born again by receiving christ as lord. Even if he had not done anything bad personally, he is destined to hell still on the account of Adam sin.

Romans 5:12-14
12 Wherefore, as by one man(Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. . .14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 

What is the scriptural backing for this, Joagbaje?

John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The only access any person has to God is through christ. If a man has not recieved christ as lord. He can't be saved nor be forgiven. The prayer a sinner need to make is not "GOD FORGIVE ME , I LIED YESTERDAY" but rather "I RECIEVE JESUS CHRIST INTO MY HEART AS LORD"

Acts 4:12
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Until a man is saved he has no access into the covenant provision. He is alienated from life, no matter how nice he is as a gentle man. He is a grntlemsn devil without a God!

Ephesians 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:  

Joagbaje
What's all these nonsense you've written all at once? 'a sinner cannot commit sin', what utter trash, so what does a sinner do, live holy? An offender cannot offend, what sort of revelation is that? When we come to remind you of your rubbish in a week's time, you'll start asking like a drunk fellow, "where did i say such nonsense"
Luke 7v37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment.
47. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven.
48. And He said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Has God changed? Is it not Him that the psalmist says that forgiveness is with (Psalm 130v4)? Where in the Bible did you see that God forgave sinners in the OT but stopped in the NT? Is your church greater than Jesus who prayed for sinners on the cross of calvary, asking for forgiveness on their behalf? I just pray the rubbish you usually vomit will not condemn you, because by your words you will be justified or condemned.

Here was your question i think

If a sinner is right with God just by asking for forgiveness, why did jesus have to come? Let me ask you a question. If does nice things, without doing bad. Even though he hasn't received Jesus , is he saved?

Here was my reply.

Image123:

Repentance and forgiveness of sins go hand in hand. I didn't say they're the same. God forgives, you repent. A sinner is made right with God by seeking/asking for forgiveness THROUGH THE RIGHT CHANNEL. It's a channel of faith in the Messiah's atoning blood. Jesus came to atone/pay for/redeem us from our sins. He came to make an end of transgressions, that's what the blood of animals could not do.

Obviously, Jesus is in the equation above. The gbam you asked for in InesQor/Enigma's post is that God cannot command us to forgive sinners, and then refuse to forgive sinners. Enigma asked you two questions in that highlighted post, you're yet to answer. We all agree that we were all sinners by birth, it's funny that's all you're posting scriptures to support. What you don't know is that we are also sinners by deed, which i posted scriptures for, which you ignored. Do you really think christians, juju people,muslims and others are all worshipping and praying to the same God?

There is no bases for his forgiveness if he is not born again

Christ is the base for forgiveness of the sinner.
Acts 13v38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins.
Redemption/remission/forgiveness of sins are obtainable for everyone by the riches of grace. Jesus came to save sinners, Matthew 1 says He came to save His people from their sins. He told Paul that He was sending him to the gentiles that they may receive forgiveness of sins. He promised forgiveness for all sins, apart from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, when He said "Verily" while speaking to the scribes and pharisees. He has power on earth, and in Heaven to forgive sinners. His words seem diametrically opposed to yours. Thank God i follow Him, not you or your pastor. He also said those born of God do not sin, even cannot sin. you say "A SINNER CANNOT COMMIT SIN". It's left to the reader to judge.

image123

Image123:

What's all these nonsense you've written all at once? 'a sinner cannot commit sin', what utter trash, so what does a sinner do, live holy?

Can a man in a toilet pit get dirtier for sprinkling Sand on him?.  
A man whose spirit is an embodiment of sin can not become sinful because of his conducts. The conducts are only a product of the nature on the inside. A dog does not become one because it barks. It's a dog because it has the nature of dog which makes it bark. It is normal for a dog to bark just as it is normal for a sinner to do bad. It is not the conduct of a sinner that makes him a sinner . But the nature. If he ask for forgiveness . He is still going to hell. If a dog stopp barking , it's still a dog!

An offender cannot offend, what sort of revelation is that? When we come to remind you of your rubbish in a week's time, you'll start asking like a drunk fellow, "where did i say such nonsense"
Luke 7v37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment.

There is a new kind of righteousness now in christ. Don't pour a new wine into an old wine skin! Your mistake is focussing  on the old system to judge the new life.

Image123:

We all agree that we were all sinners by birth, it's funny that's all you're posting scriptures to support.What you don't know is that we are also sinners by deed,

I am not a sinner with you . Jesus didn't die to produce sinners. He made us saints. A Christian may make mistakes . Which he should repent of but that doesn't make his nature sin nature. His nature is righteousness.

. Do you really think christians, juju people,muslims and others are all worshipping and praying to the same God?

They believe they are, and you guys claim God forgives them without being saved. How absurd!.

Image123:

Christ is the base for forgiveness of the sinner.
Acts 13v38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins.
Redemption/remission/forgiveness of sins are obtainable for everyone by the riches of grace. Jesus came to save sinners, Matthew 1 says He came to save His people from their sins. He told Paul that He was sending him to the gentiles that they may receive forgiveness of sins.

Don't let us forget the beginning of this argument. A man says he ask God for forgiveness and he still does wrong. If he indicated he was born again I would have  only counsel him as a Christian. But he didn't say he was born again and it is risky to assume he was , just in case. So I gave him the two options. If he was born again bla bla bla but if he wasn't born again, asking God for forgiveness daily doesn't change anything. You should have read my post with patience before rushing to attack it. Muslims do ask God for forgiveness, a religious man does that too. If you are a soul winner and a Christian counsellor , you must identify these things first, you don't just dole out counsel. Suposing the guy never gave his heart to christ , supposing he is an  or Olumba man. And you assume he was born again. You would counsel error that way by giving him false security. Making him feel saved just because on daily basis he always ask for forgiveness.   

He promised forgiveness for all sins, apart from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, when He said "Verily" while speaking to the scribes and pharisees. He has power on earth, and in Heaven to forgive sinners. His words seem diametrically opposed to yours. Thank God i follow Him, not you or your pastor. He also said those born of God do not sin, even cannot sin. you say "A SINNER CANNOT COMMIT SIN". It's left to the reader to judge.

The bible didn't say a Christian cannot sin but rather, he does not make practise of sin.The word SINNETH means continuously as a lifestyle . There is difference between falling into a sin and living in sin. It's only a Christian that can sin. An unbeliever has no law to sin against. We have the word of God and the holy spirit . But for an unbeliever. Where there's no law there's no sin. His good conduct doesn't make him better, his bad conduct doesn't make him worse.

Hi enigma thank you for your reply and encouragement - very much appreciated.

Well the church I used to attend was so holy to the point sometimes I felt my long skirt is not long enough. It's as if I couldn't keep up with the holiness being preached, the bar is so high I thought I don't think I can achieve this - or maybe because I'm young an' all but my peers are youth leaders .

In my bid to try and keep up I've discovered I'm actually competing and I feel that type of christianity is so fake and limited because if I won this pseudo-competition then what other yard stick am I measuring myself against. To be honest I don't believe I can match Jesus - well he is the Son of God - so I didn't really want to emulate him in the first place, I even find fasting and praying difficult. I keep on faking my enjoyment when I'm in the assembly of others but deep down I can't go on like this. Today I never went to church again sadly, but I will definately make the effort next week

emofine:

Hi enigma thank you for your reply and encouragement - very much appreciated.

Well the church I used to attend was so holy to the point sometimes I felt my long skirt is not long enough. It's as if I couldn't keep up with the holiness being preached, the bar is so high I thought I don't think I can achieve this - or maybe because I'm young an' all but my peers are youth leaders .

In my bid to try and keep up I've discovered I'm actually competing and I feel that type of christianity is so fake and limited because if I won this pseudo-competition then what other yard stick am I measuring myself against. To be honest I don't believe I can match Jesus - well he is the Son of God - so I didn't really want to emulate him in the first place, I even find fasting and praying difficult. I keep on faking my enjoyment when I'm in the assembly of others but deep down I can't go on like this. Today I never went to church again sadly, but I will definately make the effort next week

What you need is Jesus. Bible says all OUR righteousness is as filthy rag. You seemed to be trying so hard on your own, while others are using something called power. What happens is that when one becomes genuinely born again, he/she receives power. Jesus begins to live in and help the individual. So what he is doing with ease/fluently, you try to copy but struggle. It's like trying to run with a car, you can only try. But when Jesus comes, something new happens. He gives you power to become a child of God.

Can a man in a toilet pit get dirtier for sprinkling Sand on him? A man whose spirit is an embodiment of sin can not become sinful because of his conducts. The conducts are only a product of the nature on the inside.

So a convict cannot commit a crime? Your logic is flawed. Have shown you from the Word of God how God counts sin as a transgression of the law, not only as an inheritance. It's up to the reader to believe God's Word, which you conveniently ignored, ahead of your church doctrine.

There is a new kind of righteousness now in christ. Don't pour a new wine into an old wine skin!

A new kind of righteousness, right? The one your pastor teaches or writes on, of course it's newer than God's Word to you.

I am not a sinner with you . Jesus didn't die to produce sinners. He made us saints.

Saint no bi by mouth alone. Do you even know what the word means. You think it's just to repeat after me "i am the righteousness of God, oh glory". Then go on to live a life of 'mistakes'? May God open your eyes.

Don't let us forget the beginning of this argument.

And what do you suppose is the 'beginning of this arguement'? Your shamelessness is becoming worrisome. So you go to hide behind the OP instead of addressing issues and the scriptures opened before your eyes. You've been shown that God forgives sinners, and that God will reward every man according to his deed, not just his birth. It's up to you to believe the Word of God above the error you cling to.

The bible didn't say a Christian cannot sin but rather, he does not make practise of sin.

1John 3v8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Joagbaje is actually preaching salvation by works without realising it. See the fault in his logic:

- A sinner is a sinner because it is his nature
- That sinner is spiritually dead

- If he is spiritually dead, how then does he become sufficiently awake spiritually to be able to "repent"?

- If it is simply the sinner's repentance (and verbal confession) that make/s him "born again", is that sinner not entitled to boast? Which is exactly what Joagbaje and his ilk do --- boast about their claimed salvation and how they "won" or maybe even "saved" gazillion souls.

Again, here the opening poster says he keeps asking the Christian God for forgiveness; Jo says the guy has no business asking the Christian God for forgiveness if he is not "born again"! Question once again: if the guy is asking the Christian God for forgiveness, does he not by so doing acknowledge the Christian God as God? Another question: does Joagbaje really know when a person is "born again" --- when making a person "born again" is an action of God and not of man? Does he know whether the reason the guy considers it necessary to ask the Christian God for forgiveness is because the Spirit of God prompts the guy to do so? Does Joagbaje know whether the Spirit has already "born the guy again" is why the guy is prompted to ask for forgiveness?

Looking beyond Joagbaje, a few things to bear in mind:

- Except a person be "born again" . . .

- However, a person cannot "born himself again"; a person cannot make himself born again --- even if he repents.

- It is God that "borns a person again" ----  John 1:13

Which were born, not [/b]of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, [b]nor of the will of man, but of God.

- Repentance after all means, among other things, 'turning back to God'; how can a person turn back to God unless the Spirit of God draws the person? The chap who asks God for forgiveness is already in the beginning throes of repentance and I am certain God will not cast him away --- since God is the one drawing him in the first place!

Jesus died for all sinners and through Him God made provision for the forgiveness of everyone.

Romans 4:5

However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked {ungodly}, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 5:6

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:7

Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

Rom 5:8

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

PS I know  what Joagbaje and co do with that last Romans 5:8 - essentially that it applies only to Christians who are now "not sinners" - but don't consider it worthwhile to try and refute that.

@emotive

emofine:

Hi enigma thank you for your reply and encouragement - very much appreciated.

Well the church I used to attend was so holy to the point sometimes I felt my long skirt is not long enough. It's as if I couldn't keep up with the holiness being preached, the bar is so high I thought I don't think I can achieve this - or maybe because I'm young an' all but my peers are youth leaders .

In my bid to try and keep up I've discovered I'm actually competing and I feel that type of christianity is so fake and limited because if I won this pseudo-competition then what other yard stick am I measuring myself against. To be honest I don't believe I can match Jesus - well he is the Son of God - so I didn't really want to emulate him in the first place, I even find fasting and praying difficult. I keep on faking my enjoyment when I'm in the assembly of others but deep down I can't go on like this. Today I never went to church again sadly, but I will definately make the effort next week

Holiness is not by longskirts! So many major on outward display of piety but neglect the major part of the inner renewal which should come first. I feel you need to get filled the spirit . When you know the holy spirit personally and you get full of the spirit, you will not live your christian life to please anybody but God.

Image123:

So a convict cannot commit a crime? Your logic is flawed. Have shown you from the Word of God how God counts sin as a transgression of the law, not only as an inheritance. It's up to the reader to believe God's Word, which you conveniently ignored, ahead of your church doctrine.A new kind of righteousness, right? The one your pastor teaches or writes on, of course it's newer than God's Word to you.Saint no bi by mouth alone. Do you even know what the word means. You think it's just to repeat after me "i am the righteousness of God, oh glory". Then go on to live a life of 'mistakes'? May God open your eyes.

Crime against who? A sinner has no law to break . The old testament law was for the Jews , the new testament law is for the Christians . Men will go to hell because they reject the lordship of christ . We became sinners on the account of Adams sin. We became righteous on the account of christ blood and not our perfection.

1 Corinthians 15:48
48 Now those who are made of the dust are like him who was first made of the dust( earthly- minded); and as is[ the Man] from heaven, so also[ are those] who are of heaven( heavenly- minded).



and are

@Image123

Image123:

And what do you suppose is the 'beginning of this arguement'? Your shamelessness is becoming worrisome. So you go to hide behind the OP instead of addressing issues and the scriptures opened before your eyes. You've been shown that God forgives sinners,

Stop going round I endless circle dear. I feel you have an idea of my point but maybe pride is not allowing you to admit.
Every religion believes In God and they morally ask him for forgiveness from time to time but they don't have access to him because the only access is Jesus christ , that is why they need the gospel,  But if you hastily counsel a man that you don't know , to continue asking God for forgiveness when he sins, when you don't even know his religion or faith. This is a BIG blunder. And my point is , it's only a born again man that has acess to forgiveness. Not a natural man. The only solution for a natural man is to recieve christ. I know some of you when leading a man to christ will tell them to be confessing all their sins . That is nonsense broda. In the first place , he cant remember all his errors . But the truth isHe has no sins to confess.all he needs do is recieve christ. He becomes a brand new creature. Who never had a past as regards sin. He is created afresh in christ Jesus .  

2 Corinthians 5:17 
17 Therefore if any man[ be] in Christ,[ he is] a new creature: old things are[b] passed away;[/b] behold, all things are become new.

If the engine of a car has so many problems beyond repair, and you put a new engine, you dont need to do repair again. A sinner needs a new life. That new life supplants the old. So you need study and understand the doctrine of righteousness. 

and that God will reward every man according to his deed, not just his birth. It's up to you to believe the Word of God above the error you cling to.1John 3v8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

a Christian can leave above sin , that's not our our point. But we still do make mistakes. You have committed a number of sin here. And if I should judge you by your claim here. YOU ARE OF THE DEVIL! Because you father sinneth from the beginning . How does that sound. 

Have you ever committed a sin after you God saved? If you say YES you are a hypocrite like the phariseees. And you're judged by your claim above. But if you say NO . Then you are a BIG fat Liar!  

1 John 1:10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 

Apart from the fact that the word exposed your hypocrisy, you are getting very insultive to me and to my pastor , which is uncalled for. I asked you a simple question. "is a man of other faith saved or pardoned just by saying " God forgive me, I rigged election, forgive me , I lied?" does that pardon the man from hell, without being born again. You guys were not man enough to say "yes this Muslim man is pardoned by that lifestyle or "No" he is not pardoned until he receives Jesus as lord. Simple answer to simple question.  But rather youre busy going round and round bending and panel beating. And dodging the direct question because you know that you are hooked in a corner.

The next thing is to now start making derogative statement at my pastor. You that complain I shouldn't call you dude , but now throw insultive words at a man of God . This hypocrisy of yours is alarming. You strain at a gnat but you swallow  a Carmel like most religious people do. You can't intimidate the truth. I will still say it.

But come to think of it, why will you turn a discussion into abuses. As a believer in christ? You claime holiness but display the fruits of uncleanness and filthy tongue.   

I should start a counselling session with you  Image. What happen to the fruits of the spirit? Mr holy?

Colossians 3:8
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

 Ephesians 4:29-30
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I may not want to discuss with you further , since you display hypocrisy like this , I don't want to engage discussions with carnal minded individuals  on this forum again who are not out for truth and edification but rather create ungodly atmosphere where they can vomit maggots in their lust for evil speakings and corruption out of the inward part.

Thank you.

Repentance and Faith

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:14-15).

There are many passages in the New Testament which indicate that repentance is the key to salvation.  For example, Paul said that he had preached everywhere that they "should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:20).  But he also preached that faith in Christ is the way to be saved. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).  One could cite many verses stressing repentance and many that stress faith.

There can obviously be no real conflict here, though there is a danger in what has been called "easy believism," if repentance is ignored.  Mental assent to certain facts about Christ is not true saving faith.  Nor will it produce salvation for a person merely to be sorry for his sins and change his behaviour if he did not really trust from his heart in the person and work of Christ.

It is not "either/or" but "both/and."  One cannot truly repent (that is "change his mind" about Christ and His work, as well as his own life) without genuinely believing personally that Christ died for his sins and rose again to provide his salvation.  Neither can one have genuine faith in Christ as Son of God and as his own personal Saviour without having his whole life and attitude changed.

It is like two sides of the same coin--repentance on one side, faith on the other.  We can only see one side at a time, but both are real and neither can be there without the other.  The real "formula" for salvation is "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21).  As Christ Himself preached (see our text): "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." HMM