AreaFada2:


Kikikikiki.

In SS people say na backyard of foolish man cunning man dey die put.

Our SW people in an attempt to be too smart came up with a story of one Oduduwa as progenitor of all Yoruba people.

Speaking from both sides of the mouth and everyone forming sophisticated intellectual brings about many watery versions.

Oduduwa lived roughly same time as Genghis Khan, in the 12th Century. There is no way he could have fathered all Yoruba. Who must be at least 20 to 25 worldwide. Oduduwa is at most a spiritual father of most Yorubas because they wanted a politically unifying or rallying point after all their internecine and destructive civil wars.

Genghis Khan though rumored to have millions of biological descendants, the alleged Y-Chromosome attributed to Khan has never been proven to actually belong to him. Even though Genghis and his sons after him over-ran Asia, Eurasia, totally destroyed the then Capital of Russia Kiev, took China and pushed into Europe. Much less Oduduwa without any incontrovertible evidence of many war conquests over huge areas.

So hypocritical, shameful and ignorant of a person who prides himself to be well read and exposed. It's a pity tribal supremacy has blinded your sight of objectivity thus couldn't differentiate myth from reality.

Yorubas are not too ignorant to know that your tales of diving sky lord, Ogiso, is mythology. This is the reason why you don't see them shading you with that unless your folks first do like your are doing now.

Moreso, stop feigning ignorance like you do not know that Yoruba reputable scholars and custodians of history had cleared the falsehood that Oduduwa is the single progenitor of the Yorubas. That can only be taken as fact and peddled by laymen of history and sadly we have such people in both group, Yoruba and Benin.

Read up on the beef between Oba of Ugbo, Akinruntan and Ooni of Ife and clear your doubt if genuine.

You are too learned in my view to be involve in such bigotry; a supposedly Edo/yoruba ancestral linkage person.

gomojam:
So hypocritical, shameful and ignorant of a person who prides himself to be well read and exposed. It's a pity tribal supremacy has blinded your sight of objectivity thus couldn't differentiate myth from reality.

Yorubas are not too ignorant to know that your tales of diving sky lord, Ogiso, is mythology. This is the reason why you don't see them shading you with that unless your folks first do like your are doing now.

Moreso, stop feigning ignorance like you do not know that Yoruba reputable scholars and custodians of history had cleared the falsehood that Oduduwa is the single progenitor of the Yorubas. That can only be taken as fact and peddled by laymen of history and sadly we have such people in both group, Yoruba and Benin.

Read up on the beef between Oba of Ugbo, Akinruntan and Ooni of Ife and clear your doubt if genuine.

You are too learned in my view to be involve in such bigotry; a supposedly Edo/yoruba ancestral linkage person.

Interesting.

People like me set out to be a bridge. But Yoruba people say nobody else dare write their own history unless Yoruba version. In that case let's divide. No more place for niceties since they conspired to silence my voice/block me here years back.

The battle line had to be drawn.

Which Ooni to read, the one who suddenly found himself Ooni and doesn't know what to say about Benin? If you were not prepared for a role from birth, take your time to learn the ropes before using colonial photos to call Benin Yoruba territory.

Luckily enough my people in Eastern Yorubaland are not dumb like Yoruba Nairalanders here. Even opposing the demi-god political status of Yoruba leader (like Tinubu is today) not minding dethronement. Yep! Proud to be independent minded and not flock like a herd you lot do.

Go and tell your psuedo-intellectuals on Nairaland to get their versions of Oduduwa right. I have no business reading Mr Bling Bling Frederick, gallivanting Ooni or anybody. Unless you can quote me the number of Benin authors whose books you have read. I would listen to Alaafin of Oyo who sits on a former Imperial throne like Benin. Yes, I read the departed Oba Oyekan's book.

For us in Benin, how one of the original elders of Benin became Ogiso is known to us. How one of them made it hereditary & Uzama chiefs being rewarded with hereditary positions too.

When Pharaohs of Egypt claimed to be Horus, there weren't physically but in a mythical sense. So you just displayed the ignorance you accuse someone else of.

Chai, see pain. Mask of sophistication fell off quickly.

gomojam:
So hypocritical, shameful and ignorant of a person who prides himself to be well read and exposed. It's a pity tribal supremacy has blinded your sight of objectivity thus couldn't differentiate myth from reality.

Yorubas are not too ignorant to know that your tales of diving sky lord, Ogiso, is mythology. This is the reason why you don't see them shading you with that unless your folks first do like your are doing now.

Moreso, stop feigning ignorance like you do not know that Yoruba reputable scholars and custodians of history had cleared the falsehood that Oduduwa is the single progenitor of the Yorubas. That can only be taken as fact and peddled by laymen of history and sadly we have such people in both group, Yoruba and Benin.

Read up on the beef between Oba of Ugbo, Akinruntan and Ooni of Ife and clear your doubt if genuine.


You are too learned in my view to be involve in such bigotry; a supposedly Edo/yoruba ancestral linkage person.

Interesting.

People like me set out to be a bridge. But Yoruba people say nobody else dare write their own history unless Yoruba version. In that case let's divide. No more place for niceties since they conspired to silence my voice/block me here years back.

The battle line had to be drawn.

Which Ooni to read, the one who suddenly found himself Ooni and doesn't know what to say about Benin? If you were not prepared for a role from birth, take your time to learn the ropes before using colonial photos to call Benin Yoruba territory.

Luckily enough my people in Eastern Yorubaland are not dumb like Yoruba Nairalanders here. Even opposing the demi-god political status of Yoruba leader (like Tinubu is today) not minding dethronement. Yep! Proud to be independent minded and not flock like a herd you lot do.
Do I have residual resentment over how relatives were treated in the SW due to political intolerance? Yes I do. How can mobs be deployed to destroy properties and hound people that much without causing resentment? Not so much for the past, but for the same intolerance I see from you people now. It could happen again.

Go and tell your psuedo-intellectuals on Nairaland to get their versions of Oduduwa right. I have no business reading Mr Bling Bling Frederick, gallivanting Ooni or anybody. Unless you can quote me the number of Benin authors whose books you have read. I would listen to Alaafin of Oyo who sits on a former Imperial throne like Benin. Yes, I read the departed Oba Oyekan's book.

For us in Benin, how one of the original elders of Benin became Ogiso is known to us. How one of them made it hereditary & Uzama chiefs being rewarded with hereditary positions too.

When Pharaohs of Egypt claimed to be Horus, there weren't physically but in a mythical sense. So you just displayed the ignorance you accuse someone else of.

Chai, see pain. Mask of sophistication fell off quickly.

The exhumed heads of late Benin Obas:
------------------------------------------------------------------

samuk, you had earlier on shown interest in debating the above-underlined topic, despite my more-than-once warning that you shouldn't, considering the sensitivity of the topic.

It was after only a couple of exchange into the debate that you abruptly pulled out unilaterally, having smelt the rat. Lol.

You noticed how your best defenses were gradually crashing right before your eyes in the presence of my superior arguments.

That was despite the fact that I hadn't yet began adducing historical information and making deductions from them.

Whether you remain in hiding or return, I will simply not hold back from expatiating on the subject.

As a refresher, I will re-consider each of your defenses and crush them in turn with superior argumentation, while also proceeding to adduce historical information:

(1) You argued that since there exists a burial site in Benin till date for almost all past Benin Obas, then the Orun Oba Ado burial could not possibly be true.

The fallacy of your argument here --- as I have pointed out --- relates simply to your lack of knowledge about the tradition of burial at Orun Oba Ado.

The tradition of burial at Orun Oba Ado is about exhuming the head of the royal corpse after the corpse had already been buried at the relevant site in Benin. The head is then ready to be taken to Ife.

[Refer to my next comment for reference to the relevant historical information].

So, no where does the tradition speak of taking the late Benin Oba's whole body to Ife --- which is what your defense here assumes.

You committed the strawman logical fallacy!


(2) You asserted that the name --- "Orun Oba Ado" --- of the Ife site is anachronistically erroneous.

Your argument was that "Ado" here is a Yoruba misspelling/mispronunciation of "Edo"; and that "Edo" is a name of Benin which did not feature in the history of Benin until some centuries after the Oba dynasty had already been established.

Yes, it is true that the name "Edo" didn't feature in the history of Benin until much, much later. What is false, however, is your claim that "Ado" is a Yoruba misspelling or mispronunciation of "Edo".

No, the "Ado" in Orun Oba Ado is not a Yoruba misspelling/mispronunciation of "Edo". In fact, it has nothing to do with the Yorubas, but everything to do with the Binis themselves. This is where your argument here collapsed.


Regarding the historical evidence with which I will demonstrate that "Benin" used to be known as "Ado", by the Binis themselves, I will turn to only two pieces of independent historical information:

(a) In the Volume 1, Part 3 of Dr. R. E. Bradbury's "The Benin Kingdom and the Edo-Speaking Peoples of South-Western Nigeria", he lists, on page 170, R. E. Dennett's 1903-4 classic amongst his linguistic bibliographies.

The title of R. E. Dennett's work shown under the bibliography helps to shed some interesting light on the name "Ado" for "Benin". The title of the work is as follows:

""Notes of the language of the Efa or Bini, commonly called Uze-Ado." African Affairs, III, ..."

It therefore becomes clear from the foregoing that not only is "Ado" another name for "Benin", it is in fact an endonym.


(b) Furthermore, "The Saturday Review of Politics, Literature, Science and Art", Volume 83, (1897), pp.81-82., reads the following under the sub-heading 'BENIN':

"Another little war is teaching the British taxpayer what there is to know about Benin. It is not much. ... : "The Bight of Benin! the Bight of Benin! From which few come out -- though many go in!" The town of Benin, or Ado, as it is called by its inhabitants, lies some sixty odd miles inland from the coast, ..."


The two foregoing historical information, therefore, show clearly --- without a shred of reasonable doubt --- that the name "Ado" for "Benin" as seen in Orun Oba Ado is in fact astonishingly accurate.

"Ado" as has just been demonstrated was a name for "Benin" by the Binis themselves. You should be grateful to Ife for preserving this quite lost piece of your history.


(3) Your third argument in this regard was to the effect that no skulls were found in the course of the excavation of Orun Oba Ado.

Yes, it is a fact that the 1961-2 excavation of Orun Oba Ado, by Frank willett, yielded no skulls.

Your 'deduction' from this fact (of no skulls found), however, is that: indeed no heads were buried there ab-initio.


Your conclusion here --- as I have noted earlier --- is a fallacy. To be specific, it is a logical fallacy known in argumentation as non-sequitur.

This will be expatiated on in my following comment, after which supporting historical information will also be adduced.

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
Lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun


samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee
gregyboy

Your conclusion that no heads were buried at the site ab-initio is non-sequitur because it does not necessarily follow from the fact that no skulls were found at the site.

Your conclusion does not necessarily follow because there can be more that one possible logical explanation for why no skulls were found at the site of the excavation:

(1) Yes, if no heads were buried there ab-initio, then no skulls would be found there in modern times.

(2) Also, if the buried heads were subsequently exhumed --- for ascension rites --- then no skulls would be found there in modern times.

You had assumed that case (1) was the one and only one deductible conclusion from the fact that no skulls were found there. No, case (2) is also equally plausible.

Having clarified that, there actually exists clear and direct historical information which shoots-down and writes-off case (1) as invalid.

For instance, Dr. R. E. Bradbury is noted --- by A. F. C. Ryder --- to have said that the Edo people themselves confirmed that certain messengers do carry an "Oba's remains" to Ife.

To quote the actual words of A. F. C. Ryder:

"In a personal communication, Dr R. E. Bradbury points out that 'the Edo speak of the messengers who carried the Oba's remains to Ife ..."

Reference:
A. F. C. Ryder, "A Reconsideration of the Ife-Benin Relationship", The Journal of African History, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1965), footnote 10.


Moreover, the earliest and illustrious indigenous Bini historian, Chief Jacob Uwadiae Egharevba spells out some specific details of this practice.

He describes, for example, what is specifically meant by "Oba's remains" with some quite graphic detail, while also adding more details to the general observance of this practice. He writes:

"The head of the royal corpse was subsequently exhumed and taken to the royal ancestral grave at Ile-Ife; but this was only done in every third reign."

Reference:
J. U. Egharevba, Benin Law and Custom, (CMS Niger Press, Port Harcourt 1946), p.72.

In sum, not only do these historical statements and information shoot-down case (1) as invalid, they in fact uphold case (2) as valid.


More interesting than all the foregoing is the fact that Frank Willett did indeed make other interesting finds at Orun Oba Ado --- finds which I have realized to be an astonishing confirmation of this practice.

In the course of his excavation of Orun Oba Ado, and after some feet below the top soil level; Frank Willett found (among other things) big circular pits which he described as "burial pits".

In total, the number of "burial pits" he found at Orun Oba Ado was "eleven".

Reference:
WILLETT 2004: Chapter 1.3. cited in James W. Lankton, O. Akin Ige, & Thilo Rehren, "Early Primary Glass Production in Southern Nigeria", Journal of African Archaeology, Vol. 4 (1), 2006, pp.125-126.
See copy here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274431270_Early_primary_glass_production_in_southern_Nigeria


If this practice had happened in accordance with the details given by Chief Egharevba --- as cited above --- then an appropriate enumeration of Benin's past Obas should also yield the same number "eleven".

This number "eleven" will either confirm or debunk the practice.

Notice that Egharevba added that this practice of taking the exhumed heads of buried Benin Obas to Ife is only done in every third-reign.

Now, how many third-reigns are there between Oranmiyan's reign on one hand, and the reign before Ovoranmwen's on the other hand??

Note: Ovoranmwen's incomplete reign in 1897 marks the point from when the British intervened in Benin's polity when they exiled him to Calabar.

I challenge any Bini reading this to do the enumeration, and then revert back to this thread with the number, to allow for a comparison with the "eleven" "burial pits" which Frank Willett found at Orun Oba Ado.

See here for a complete listing of Benin kings from a pro-Edo source:
https://www.edoworld.net/Obas.html


Hint for enumerating the third-reigns:
-------------------------------------------------------------
1. A
2. B
3. C ☆
4. D
5. E
6. F ☆
7. G

The 1st third-reign is C's,
The 2nd third-reign is F's, etc.

In sum, from A to G, there are only "two" third-reigns.

Cheers!

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
Lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun


samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee
gregyboy

TAO11:
The exhumed heads of late Benin Obas:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

samuk, you had earlier on shown interest in debating the above-underlined topic, despite my more-than-once warning that you shouldn't, considering the sensitivity of the topic.

It was just only a couple of exchange into the the debate that you abruptly pooled out unilaterally having smelt the rat. Lol.

You noticed how your best defenses were gradually crashing right before your eyes in the presence of my superior arguments.

That was despite the fact that I hadn't yet began adducing historical information and making deductions from them.

Whether you remain in hiding or return, I will simply not hold back from expatiating on the subject.

As a refresher, I will reconsider each of your defences and crush them in turn with superior argumentation, while also adducing historical information this time around:

(1) You argued that since there exists a burial site in Benin till date for almost all past Benin Obas, then the Orun Oba Ado burial could not possibly be true.

The fallacy of your argument here --- as I have pointed out --- relates simply to your lack of knowledge about the tradition of burial at Orun Oba Ado.

The tradition of burial at Orun Oba Ado is about exhuming the head of the royal corpse after the corpse had already been buried at the relevant site in Benin. The head is then ready to be taken to Ife.

[Refer to my next comment for reference to the relevant historical information].

So, no where does the tradition speak of taking the late Benin Oba's whole body to Ife --- which is what your defense here assumes.

You committed the strawman[i] logical fallacy!


(2) You asserted that the name --- [i]"Orun Oba Ado" --- of the Ife site is erroneous.

Your argument was that "Ado" here is a Yoruba misspelling/mispronunciation of "Edo"; and that "Edo" is a name of Benin which did not feature in the history of Benin until some centuries after the Oba dynasty has already been established.

Yes, it is true that the name Edo didn't feature in the history of Benin until much, much later; what is false, however, is your claim that "Ado" is a Yoruba misspelling or mispronunciation of "Edo".

No, the "Ado" in Orun Oba Ado is not a Yoruba misspelling/mispronunciation of "Edo". It has nothing to do with the Yorubas, but has everything to do with the Binis themselves. This is where your argument here collapsed.


To cite some historical information to demonstrate that "Benin" used to be know as "Ado", by the Binis themselves, I will turn to only two pieces of independent historical information:

(a) In the Volume 1, Part 3 of Professor R. E. Bradbury's "The Benin Kingdom and the Edo-Speaking Peoples of South-Western Nigeria", he lists, on page 170, R. E. Dennett's 1903-4 classic amongst his linguistic bibliographies.

The title of R. E. Dennett's work shown under the bibliography helps to shed some interesting light on the name "Ado" for "Benin". The title of the work is as follows:

""Notes of the language of the Efa or Bini, commonly called Uze-Ado." African Affairs, III, ..."

It therefore becomes clear from the foregoing that not only is "Ado" another name for "Benin", it is in fact an endonym.


(b) Furthermore, "The Saturday Review of Politics, Literature, Science and Art", Volume 83, (1897), pp.81-82, reads the following under the sub-heading 'BENIN':

"Another little war is teaching the British taxpayer what there is to know about Benin. It is not much. ... : "The Bight of Benin! the Bight of Benin! From which few come out -- though many go in!" The town of Benin, or Ado, as it is called by its inhabitants, lies some sixty odd miles inland from the coast, ..."


The two foregoing historical information, therefore, show clearly --- without a shred of reasonable doubt --- that the name "Ado" for "Benin" as seen in Orun Oba Ado is in fact astonishingly accurate.

"Ado" as has just been demonstrated was a name for "Benin" by the Binis themselves. You should be grateful to Ife for preserving this quite lost piece of your history.


(3) Your third argument in this regard was to the effect that no skulls were found in the course of the excavation of Orun Oba Ado.

Yes, it is a fact that the 1961-2 excavation of Orun Oba Ado, by Frank willett, yielded no skulls.

Your 'deduction' from this fact (of no skulls found), however, is that: indeed no heads were buried there ab-initio.


Your conclusion here --- as I have noted earlier --- is a fallacy. To be specific, it is a logical fallacy known in argumentation as non-sequitur.

This will be expatiated on in my following comment, after which supporting historical information will also be adduced.

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
Lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun


samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee
gregyboy

I am very reluctant to resume this debate with you after showing yourself to be a Yoruba revisionist that will even dear argue the history of Lagos monarchy with the custodians themselves, the Oba of Lagos and his white cap chiefs, I don't know any Omoluabi that will want to engage in something like that.

You stated that the royal body of the Oba is exhumed and the head taken to Ife, this shows your complete ignorance of the burial rites of the old Obas of Benin by assuming that it's only the body of the Oba alone that is buried in his grave and the sacrilege of tempering with the burial site of an Oba.

You stated that Ado was associated with the inhabitants of Benin or the inhabitants of Benin also call themselves Ado, I don't know what exactly you are trying to prove with this.

In my earlier submission, I gave you account of some of the different periods in Benin history and the name Benin was known by various tribes that were either members of the empire or ruled by the empire.

People of these various tribes were also resident in Benin, it was not just the Benin (the ruling elites and administrators) alone that were in Benin.

It's a well established fact that the Urhobos were once in Benin and left during the period Benin was known as Arka and when they want to make reference to Benin in their local dialects, they still prefer Arka till date.

Western Igbos and Onitsha prefer to call Benin Idu.

The Yoruba people, with much later contact after the late 1400s AD called the Benins Ado.

So the remnant of Urhobos, Igbos, Yorubas that were still resident in Benin and were all referred to as Benin residents call the Benins (administrators) of the empire by various names.

Even the Benin called themselves Edo.

So you have not proven anything by saying that Benin residents referred to themselves as Ado, because it's was not just Ado but by various other names,

By the later years of European exploration of the Benin country, the Urhobos, Igbos and other tribes had moved out for various reasons whilst Yorubas, mostly from Akure were moving in because Benin was the capital of the empire and some roused to very prominent positions including the Iyase of Benin, prime minister and second position to the Oba of Benin

So you could meet a Benin resident at that time that will use the name Ado, Idu, Edo, Arka.

If you find yourself in the Yoruba areas of Benin, you will hear the name Ado being used. If a Yoruba Benin resident returned to the west from Benin, they will say they are coming from Ado.

Ado is not a name or was not the name Benin called themselves.

Please, you guys must first sort out your own confusions about who Oduduwa was before making attempts to dabble into the well established Benin.

Very few of you even know the true history of your own families and villages.

Benin was too organised, sophisticated and advanced for you guys to dabble into.

There is a system in place for any true Benin person to simply walk into his ancestral altar and know how many great grandfathers/ancestors had existed in that lineage and the history of each, same way to determine the history of various villages and towns.

Benin history is way out of your reach so concentrate of who Oduduwa was first.

samuk:


[s]I am very reluctant to resume this debate with you after showing yourself to be a Yoruba revisionist that will even dear argue the history of Lagos monarchy with the custodians themselves, the Oba of Lagos and his white cap chiefs, I don't know any Omoluabi that will want to engage in something like that.

YOU STATED that the royal body of the Oba is exhumed and the head taken to Ife, this shows your complete ignorance of the burial rites of the old Obas of Benin by assuming that it's only the body of the Oba alone that is buried in his grave and the sacrilege of tempering with the burial site of an Oba.

YOU STATED] that Ado was associated with the inhabitants of Benin or the inhabitants of Benin also call themselves Ado, I don't know what exactly you are trying to prove with this.

In my earlier submission, I gave you account of some of the different periods in Benin history and the name Benin was known by various tribes that were either members of the empire or ruled by the empire.

People of these various tribes were also resident in Benin, it was not just the Benin (the ruling elites and administrators) alone that were in Benin.

It's a well established fact that the Urhobos were once in Benin and left during the period Benin was known as Arka and when they want to make reference to Benin in their local dialects, they still prefer Arka till date.

Western Igbos and Onitsha prefer to call Benin Idu.

The Yoruba people, with much later contact after the late 1400s AD called the Benins Ado.

So the remnant of Urhobos, Igbos, Yorubas that were still resident in Benin and were all referred to as Benin residents call the Benins (administrators) of the empire by various names.

Even the Benin called themselves Edo.

So you have not proven anything by saying that Benin residents referred to themselves as Ado, because it's was not just Ado but by various other names,

By the later years of European exploration of the Benin country, the Urhobos, Igbos and other tribes had moved out for various reasons whilst Yorubas, mostly from Akure were moving in because Benin was the capital of the empire and some roused to very prominent positions including the Iyase of Benin, prime minister and second position to the Oba of Benin

So you could meet a Benin resident at that time that will use the name Ado, Idu, Edo, Arka.

If you find yourself in the Yoruba areas of Benin, you will hear the name Ado being used. If a Yoruba Benin resident returned to the west from Benin, they will say they are coming from Ado.

Ado is not a name or was not the name Benin called themselves.

Please, you guys must first sort out your own confusions about who Oduduwa was before making attempts to dabble into the well established Benin.

Very few of you even know the true history of your own families and villages.

Benin was too organised, sophisticated and advanced for you guys to dabble into.

There is a system in place for any true Benin person to simply walk into his ancestral altar and know how many great grandfathers/ancestors had existed in that lineage and the history of each, same way to determine the history of various villages and towns.

Benin history is way out of your reach so concentrate of who Oduduwa was first.[/s]

You wrote "you stated" ... "you stated".

No, I did not "stated"

Experts who have studied Benin history all their lives did.

They stated that the heads of late Benin Obas are exhumed and taken to Ife. How did you manage to miss the references?? Oversight?? Or you didn't actually miss it but just pretending??

Also, a 1903-4 and an 1897 document on Benin did state that Ado was as an endonym for Benin.

It's wasn't me who stated that or some Yorubas who stated that. Experts on Benin history did. And the references are there. I'm confused how you could have missed it.

So leave me out of this and challenge historians to a debate instead!

While the historians deal with facts and reasonable accounts, you brace your self with the typical Bini feel good imaginations like Oba no dey go transfer, etc. and then call out historians of Benin history.

Whatever you do, make sure you leave me out of it because I never spoke of my own authority. Whatever I hear, I judge; and my judgement is therefore just.

And you're obviously not even a proper history enthusiast, let alone a student, let alone a scholar.

It's a fight between you and the scholars. Take it up with them and stop pretending it's you vs. me.


Anyways, I understand your reply is simply your defense mechanism kicking in.

I understand you're hurt. Don't over think it. Log out of Nairaland. Drink some water. Breathe in and out. Play some video game. And then return later to read the comments, but at that time with your eyes and mind open.

You will be fine! I'm serious!

Bye!

TAO11:


You wrote "you stated" ... "you stated".

No, I did not "stated"

Experts who have studied Benin history all their lives did.

They stated that the heads of late Benin Obas are exhumed and taken to Ife. How did you manage to miss the references?? Oversight?? Or you didn't actually miss it but just pretending??

Also, a 1903-4 and an 1897 document on Benin did state that Ado was as an endonym for Benin.

It's wasn't me who stated that or some Yoru as who stated that. Experts on Benin history did. And the references are there. I'm confused how you could have missed it.

So leave me out of this and challenge historians to a debate instead!

While the historians deal with facts and reasonable accounts, you brace your self with the typical Bini feel good imaginations like Oba no dey go transfer, etc. and then call out historians of Benin history.

Whatever you do, make sure you leave me out of it because I never spoke of my own authority. Whatever I hear, I judge; and my judgement is therefore just.

And you're obviously not even a proper history enthusiast, let alone a student, let alone a scholar.

It's a fight between you and the scholars. Take it up with them and stop pretending it's you vs. me.


Anyways, I understand your reply is simply your defense mechanism kicking in.

I understand you're hurt. Don't over think it. Log out of Nairaland. Drink some water. Bright in and out. Play some video game. And then return later to read the comments, but at that time with your eyes and mind open.

You will be fine! I'm serious!

Bye!

Your so called expert on Benin history that you are referencing are either foreign revisionist or local confused historians that were heavily influenced and their history of Benin tainted by the west.

The 1800s to early 1900s was when the Benin/Akure relationship was at it's strongest, infact, there are people who are referred to in Benin as Edo Nekue, Edo Akure people (bonafide Benins themselves, but some have strong sympathy for the Yorubas), you will must likely find that your local Benin historians are from these Edo/Yoruba group.

The Benin themselves are history walking on two legs that others try to study. History is in our names, family morning greetings, songs, arts, dance, food, clothing, religion, customs, language, etc.

In Benin, the air your breath and the water you drink are filled with histories and the land you walk on is historical ground.

Imagine someone coming from nowhere to argue my family history with me, when a system had been in place for centuries for any child of the family who is interested to study and know their history.

Like I told you before, the average Benin person only needs to walk into his ancestral altar for the family history to reveal itself, the numbers of your grandfathers/forefathers from the beginning are there for you to count and see for yourself.

The heads of the families and other senior family members are the custodians of the various events that transpired during the reign of each of your forefathers and the Obas they served under.

Same method is in place in the villages and towns.

The Royal household have different palace society that are created as custodians of various aspects of the royal household/institutions.

Even within the royal cooks, there is a special chieftaincy title created for the chief butcher, so even palace butchers have their own history that chief Ehondon and the Ehondon family is the custodian of.

Some of our families are the custodians of these various aspects of the larger history of Benin and eye witnesses to what you guys are trying to write about.

Benin is not where an Oba dies and get buried like anyone else.

Even the coronation of a new Oba used to take years because of all the rites, rituals and traditions that have to be fulfilled.

It's during these rite, rituals and traditions that past historical events of worth are reenacted and every societies and groups have to play their roles.

The Oba have more than 300 palace chiefs with specific roles, not to talk of dukes of various villages and towns.

Benin is not where you dethrone an Oba today and appoints another same day or when an Oba dies you appoint another.

In Benin Obas are born and not given to the highest bidders.

Concentrate on who your Oduduwa was first before attempting Benin history.

AreaFada2:


Interesting.

People like me set out to be a bridge. But Yoruba people say nobody else dare write their own history unless Yoruba version. In that case let's divide. No more place for niceties since they conspired to silence my voice/block me here years back.

The battle line had to be drawn.

Which Ooni to read, the one who suddenly found himself Ooni and doesn't know what to say about Benin? If you were not prepared for a role from birth, take your time to learn the ropes before using colonial photos to call Benin Yoruba territory.

Luckily enough my people in Eastern Yorubaland are not dumb like Yoruba Nairalanders here. Even opposing the demi-god political status of Yoruba leader (like Tinubu is today) not minding dethronement. Yep! Proud to be independent minded and not flock like a herd you lot do.

Go and tell your psuedo-intellectuals on Nairaland to get their versions of Oduduwa right. I have no business reading Mr Bling Bling Frederick, gallivanting Ooni or anybody. Unless you can quote me the number of Benin authors whose books you have read. I would listen to Alaafin of Oyo who sits on a former Imperial throne like Benin. Yes, I read the departed Oba Oyekan's book.

For us in Benin, how one of the original elders of Benin became Ogiso is known to us. How one of them made it hereditary & Uzama chiefs being rewarded with hereditary positions too.

When Pharaohs of Egypt claimed to be Horus, there weren't physically but in a mythical sense. So you just displayed the ignorance you accuse someone else of.

Chai, see pain. Mask of sophistication fell off quickly.

Lol, You are the pained one here.

We have left you ignorant benins for too long to peddle and revel in ignorance because of the cultural influence thus some similarities via Oranmiyan obaship dynasty. This why Ogedengbe did not ravage your entire kingdom when he visited carnage and slave raiding upon your people enroute akoko, your wise oba had to appease him.

Also, Ibadan would have ravaged your Benin if not for these same reasons too. You claimed many eastern Yoruba towns were under benins subjugation. Why didn't your army halt Ibadan's encroachment and foraging deep into the ekiti and Akoko country?

Yoruba are the most sophisticated group I Nigeria. If you have otherwise fact against this feel free to express. Thank you

samuk:


[s]Your so called expert on Benin history that you are referencing are either foreign revisionist or local confused historians that were heavily influenced and their history of Benin tainted by the west.

The 1800s to early 1900s was when the Benin/Akure relationship was at it's strongest, infact, there are people who are referred to in Benin as Edo Nekue, Edo Akure people (bonafide Benins themselves, but some have strong sympathy for the Yorubas), you will must likely find that your local Benin historians are from these Edo/Yoruba group.

The Benin themselves are history walking on two legs that others try to study. History is in our names, family morning greetings, songs, arts, dance, food, clothing, religion, customs, language, etc.

In Benin, the air your breath and the water you drink are filled with histories and the land you walk on is historical ground.

Imagine someone coming from nowhere to argue my family history with me, when a system had been in place for centuries for any child of the family who is interested to study and know their history.

Like I told you before, the average Benin person only needs to walk into his ancestral altar for the family history to reveal itself, the numbers of your grandfathers/forefathers from the beginning are there for you to count and see for yourself.

The heads of the families and other senior family members are the custodians of the various events that transpired during the reign of each of your forefathers and the Obas they served under.

Same method is in place in the villages and towns.

The Royal household have different palace society that are created as custodians of various aspects of the royal household/institutions.

Even within the royal cooks, there is a special chieftaincy title created for the chief butcher, so even palace butchers have their own history that chief Ehondon and the Ehondon family is the custodian of.

Some of our families are the custodians of these various aspects of the larger history of Benin and eye witnesses to what you guys are trying to write about.

Benin is not where an Oba dies and get buried like anyone else.

Even the coronation of a new Oba used to take years because of all the rites, rituals and traditions that have to be fulfilled.

It's during these rite, rituals and traditions that past historical events of worth are reenacted and every societies and groups have to play their roles.

The Oba have more than 300 palace chiefs with specific roles, not to talk of dukes of various villages and towns.

Benin is not where you dethrone an Oba today and appoints another same day or when an Oba dies you appoint another.

In Benin Obas are born and not given to the highest bidders.

Concentrate on who your Oduduwa was first before attempting Benin history.[/s]

When historians say Benin is great, then Benin is truly great, right? Lol

But when they document eyewitness accounts or classical Benin tradition that doesn't go well down your throat, then they become white revisionists who are colluding with Yorubas to punish the Binis; or they must have been a dumb Bini influenced by the Yoruba for having done part of their primary school in Yorubaland.

The same attitude every little kid will exhibit --- that is, everything must proceed how they exactly want them, otherwise they're wrong.

At this point it has clicked in me that you can't save a man from himself. I will, however, give a recommendation that you read up on the following:

1. Persecution Complex
2. Criterion of Embarrasment.

Moreover, I notice how you consistently write unrelated, irrelevant, and most importantly, unsubstantiated imaginations as replies just to save face and give your gullible audience the impression of having replied the yOrUbAs.

Whatever makes you and them sleep well tonight, and save face is okay by me. I obviously don't intend to be pointed to as the source of some "great depression" among overzealous lying Benin youths

But however it's turning out, you all will eventually get over this. I promise.

TAO11:


When the historians say Benin is great, then Benin is truly great.

But when they document eyewitness accounts or classical Benin tradition that doesn't go well down your throat then, they become white revisionists who are colluding with Yorubas to punish the Binis, or they must have been a dumb Bini influenced by the Yoruba for having done part of their primary school in Yorubaland.

At this point it then clicks in me that you can't save a man from himself, but I will give a recommendation that you read up o n the following:

1. Persecution Complex
2. Criterion of Embarrasment.

Moreover, I notice how you consistently write unrelated, irrelevant, and most importantly unsubstantiated imaginations as replies just to give your gullible audience the impression of having replied the yOrUbAs.

Whatever makes you and them sleep well tonight, and save face.

You all will eventually grt over this. I promise.

At the first bolded, It's hypocrisy and ego.

Lmao at the Second bolded. He Don enter one chance. If only he knew from the beginning, o ma se ooo.

His brothers and praise singers had left after clogging him in this predicament. Won ti si ija ekun tan won wa fi orun sise si lapo.

gomojam:
At the first bolded, It's hypocrisy and ego.

Lmao at the Second bolded. He Don enter one chance. If only he knew from the beginning, o ma se ooo.

His brothers and praise singers had left after clogging him in this predicament. Won ti si ija ekun tan won wa fi orun sise si lapo.

Hahaha

Don't mind those revisionists who think shouting the word "revisionist" at others will absolve them of their rightful guilt.

Thanks for also taking out the time to shoot down their lies.

Just for fun:
Did you take out time to count those third-reign from the list of Benin Obas??

It's a very interesting and astonishing angle in case you missed it. Lol

Cheers!

gomojam:
At the first bolded, It's hypocrisy and ego.

Lmao at the Second bolded. He Don enter one chance. If only he knew from the beginning, o ma se ooo.

His brothers and praise singers had left after clogging him in this predicament. Won ti si ija ekun tan won wa fi orun sise si lapo.

When you guys from formerly little known Yoruba villages finished arguing the history of Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos and his white cap chiefs, you can continue with your fiction of Oduduwa climbing down from the sky with chain and at the same time being the son of Ham.

You already have enough to chew on and confused yourself with and stop the fabrications that Obas of Benin where buried in Ife.

We the Benins are telling you it never happened and no evidence was found in your Orun Oba Ado site. So stop the lies.

Carry on with your Yoruba Oduduwa confuse history with all the various versions and not add Benin history to your confusion.

TAO11:


Hahaha

Don't mind those revisionists who think shouting the word "revisionist" at others will absolve them of their rightful guilt.

Thanks for also taking out the time to shoot down their lies.

Just for fun:
Did you take out time to count those third-reign from the list of Benin Obas??

It's a very interesting and astonishing angle in case you missed it. Lol

Cheers!

I will do now bro, thanks alot.

And thanks for taking time to crush theirs lies with hard facts and logic. They were dumbfounded; in awe of your intelligence. You really hit them hard.

I believe it's only Nairaland Benin pseudo historians that have this low mental limitation. Lol

samuk:


When you guys from formerly little known Yoruba villages finished arguing the history of Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos and his white cap chiefs, you can continue with your fiction of Oduduwa climbing down from the sky with chain and at the same time being the son of Ham.

You already have enough to chew on and confused yourself with and stop the fabrications that Obas of Benin where buried in Ife.

We the Benins are telling you it never happened and no evidence was found in your Orun Oba Ado site. So stop the lies.

Carry on with your Yoruba Oduduwa confuse history with all the various versions and not add Benin history to your confusion.

Baba nor be fight now

TAO11:


Hahaha

Don't mind those revisionists who think shouting the word "revisionist" at others will absolve them of their rightful guilt.

Thanks for also taking out the time to shoot down their lies.

Just for fun:
Did you take out time to count those third-reign from the list of Benin Obas??

It's a very interesting and astonishing angle in case you missed it. Lol

Cheers!

OK bro, I will go through it. Thanks alot

gomojam:
Baba nor be fight now

This is not fight but fun while the lockdown lasts, hope you are keeping and staying safe.

samuk:


[s]When you guys from formerly little known Yoruba villages finished arguing the history of Lagos monarchy with the Oba of Lagos and his white cap chiefs, you can continue with your fiction of Oduduwa climbing down from the sky with chain and at the same time being the son of Ham.

You already have enough to chew on and confused yourself with and stop the fabrications that Obas of Benin where buried in Ife.

We the Benins are telling you it never happened and no evidence was found in your Orun Oba Ado site. So stop the lies.

Carry on with your Yoruba Oduduwa confuse history with all the various versions and not add Benin history to your confusion.[/s]

Yes, evidence was found.

Read my 2 comments (the 2nd one especially) and kill your self-inflicted ignorance, or address the specific arguments and evidence there without any attempt to throw in red-herrings or attack strawman.

Like I have said, you all will eventually get over this. I promise!

TAO11:
Your conclusion that no heads were buried at the site ab-initio is non-sequitur because it does not necessarily follow from the fact that no skulls were found at the site.

It does not necessarily follow because there can be more that one possible logical explanation for why no skulls were found at the site of the excavation:

(1) Yes, if no heads were buried there ab-initio, then no skulls would be found there in modern times.

(2) Also, if the buried heads were subsequently exhumed --- for ascension rites --- then no skulls would be found there in modern times.

You had assumed that case (1) was the one and only one deductible conclusion from the fact that no skulls were found there. No, case (2) is also equally plausible.

Having clarified that, there actually exists clear and direct historical information which shoots-down and writes-off case (1) as invalid.

For instance, Dr. R. E. Bradbury is noted --- by A. F. C. Ryder --- to have said that the Edo people themselves confirmed that certain messengers do carry an "Oba's remains" to Ife.

To quote the actual words of A. F. C. Ryder:

"In a personal communication, Dr R. E. Bradbury points out that 'the Edo speak of the messengers who carried the Oba's remains to Ife ..."

Reference:
A. F. C. Ryder, "A Reconsideration of the Ife-Benin Relationship", The Journal of African History, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1965), footnote 10.


Moreover, the earliest and illustrious indigenous Bini historian, Chief Jacob Uwadiae Egharevba spells out some specific details of this practice.

He describes, for example, what is specifically meant by "Oba's remains" with some quite graphic detail, while also adding more details to the general observance of this practice. He writes:

"The head of the royal corpse was subsequently exhumed and taken to the royal ancestral grave at Ile-Ife; but this was only done in every third reign."

Reference:
J. U. Egharevba, Benin Law and Custom, (CMS Niger Press, Port Harcourt 1946), p.72.

In sum, not only do these historical statements and information shoot-down case (1) as invalid, they in fact uphold case (2) as valid.


More interesting than all the foregoing is the fact that Frank Willett did indeed make other interesting finds at Orun Oba Ado --- finds which I have realized to be an astonishing confirmation of this practice.

In the course of his excavation of Orun Oba Ado, and after some feet below the top soil level; Frank Willett found (among other things) big circular pits which he described as "burial pits".

In total, the number of "burial pits" he found at Orun Oba Ado was "eleven".

Reference:
WILLETT 2004: Chapter 1.3. cited in James W. Lankton, O. Akin Ige, & Thilo Rehren, "Early Primary Glass Production in Southern Nigeria", Journal of African Archaeology, Vol. 4 (1), 2006, pp.125-126.
See copy here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274431270_Early_primary_glass_production_in_southern_Nigeria


If this practice had happened in accordance with the details given by Chief Egharevba --- as cited above --- then an appropriate enumeration of Benin's past Obas should also yield the same number "eleven".

This number "eleven" will either confirm or debunk the practice.

Notice that Egharevba added that this practice of taking the exhumed heads of buried Benin Obas to Ife is only done in every third-reign.

Now, how many third-reigns are there between Oranmiyan's reign on one hand, and the reign before Ovoranmwen's on the other hand??

Note: Ovoranmwen's incomplete reign in 1897 marks the point from when the British intervened in Benin's polity when they exiled him to Calabar.

I challenge any Bini reading this to do the enumeration, and then revert back to this thread with the number to allow for a comparison with the "eleven" "burial pits" which Frank Willett found at Orun Oba Ado

See here for a complete listing of Benin kings from a pro-Edo source:
https://www.edoworld.net/Obas.html


Hint for enumerating the third-reigns:
-------------------------------------------------------------
1. A
2. B
3. C ☆
4. D
5. E
6. F ☆
7. G

The 1st third-reign is C,
The 2nd third-reign is F, etc.

In sum, from A to G, there are only "two" third-reigns.

Cheers!

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
Lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun


samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee
gregyboy

You're not that smart


You said the translation of regnum orguene it means kingdom of oghene if translated into English i did my own research and i found nothing like that, if you dont mind post a screenshot of the translation.... The geographical location of the wriiten document of regnum orguene gives otherwise

See at Picture 1


Also you're a very mischievous fellow

You posted a link, thanks to you i sat my ass to read the article and i found out alot

Gracias

Picture 2 mentioned in the link you posted that finding the king oghene as mentioned by benins to the Portuguese its most like going to be around
Nupe, oyo, igala, if we are to go by historical account benin had alot historical relationships with igala and they acknowledged them as great warriors, benin also fought wars with oyo, traded with nupes but ife would be argued

TAO11:
Your conclusion that no heads were buried at the site ab-initio is non-sequitur because it does not necessarily follow from the fact that no skulls were found at the site.

Your conclusion does not necessarily follow because there can be more that one possible logical explanation for why no skulls were found at the site of the excavation:

(1) Yes, if no heads were buried there ab-initio, then no skulls would be found there in modern times.

(2) Also, if the buried heads were subsequently exhumed --- for ascension rites --- then no skulls would be found there in modern times.

You had assumed that case (1) was the one and only one deductible conclusion from the fact that no skulls were found there. No, case (2) is also equally plausible.

Having clarified that, there actually exists clear and direct historical information which shoots-down and writes-off case (1) as invalid.

For instance, Dr. R. E. Bradbury is noted --- by A. F. C. Ryder --- to have said that the Edo people themselves confirmed that certain messengers do carry an "Oba's remains" to Ife.

To quote the actual words of A. F. C. Ryder:

"In a personal communication, Dr R. E. Bradbury points out that 'the Edo speak of the messengers who carried the Oba's remains to Ife ..."

Reference:
A. F. C. Ryder, "A Reconsideration of the Ife-Benin Relationship", The Journal of African History, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1965), footnote 10.


Moreover, the earliest and illustrious indigenous Bini historian, Chief Jacob Uwadiae Egharevba spells out some specific details of this practice.

He describes, for example, what is specifically meant by "Oba's remains" with some quite graphic detail, while also adding more details to the general observance of this practice. He writes:

"The head of the royal corpse was subsequently exhumed and taken to the royal ancestral grave at Ile-Ife; but this was only done in every third reign."

Reference:
J. U. Egharevba, Benin Law and Custom, (CMS Niger Press, Port Harcourt 1946), p.72.

In sum, not only do these historical statements and information shoot-down case (1) as invalid, they in fact uphold case (2) as valid.


More interesting than all the foregoing is the fact that Frank Willett did indeed make other interesting finds at Orun Oba Ado --- finds which I have realized to be an astonishing confirmation of this practice.

In the course of his excavation of Orun Oba Ado, and after some feet below the top soil level; Frank Willett found (among other things) big circular pits which he described as "burial pits".

In total, the number of "burial pits" he found at Orun Oba Ado was "eleven".

Reference:
WILLETT 2004: Chapter 1.3. cited in James W. Lankton, O. Akin Ige, & Thilo Rehren, "Early Primary Glass Production in Southern Nigeria", Journal of African Archaeology, Vol. 4 (1), 2006, pp.125-126.
See copy here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274431270_Early_primary_glass_production_in_southern_Nigeria


If this practice had happened in accordance with the details given by Chief Egharevba --- as cited above --- then an appropriate enumeration of Benin's past Obas should also yield the same number "eleven".

This number "eleven" will either confirm or debunk the practice.

Notice that Egharevba added that this practice of taking the exhumed heads of buried Benin Obas to Ife is only done in every third-reign.

Now, how many third-reigns are there between Oranmiyan's reign on one hand, and the reign before Ovoranmwen's on the other hand??

Note: Ovoranmwen's incomplete reign in 1897 marks the point from when the British intervened in Benin's polity when they exiled him to Calabar.

I challenge any Bini reading this to do the enumeration, and then revert back to this thread with the number, to allow for a comparison with the "eleven" "burial pits" which Frank Willett found at Orun Oba Ado.

See here for a complete listing of Benin kings from a pro-Edo source:
https://www.edoworld.net/Obas.html


Hint for enumerating the third-reigns:
-------------------------------------------------------------
1. A
2. B
3. C ☆
4. D
5. E
6. F ☆
7. G

The 1st third-reign is C's,
The 2nd third-reign is F's, etc.

In sum, from A to G, there are only "two" third-reigns.

Cheers!

gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
Lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun


samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee
gregyboy

Let's for once ignore the contradictions in the two sources you cited and assume that the remains of the Obas of Benin that were claimed to have been taken to Ife meant the heads alone.

You claimed eleven empty burial pits were found in Arun Oba Ado and one of your sources claimed that every third-reigns Oba was taken to Ife.

Considering that the numbers of Obas of Benin are well documented, please do the enumeration and tell us if your numbers add up.

Assuming the empty pit at Orun Oba Ado once contained the remains of Benin Obas what happened to the remains, why are the pits empty.

I warned you and your fellow revisionist to stick to your Oduduwa fairytale and stay out of Benin history.

You have now dug yourself and your sources a bigger hole.

I am waiting for the result of the simple arithmetic assignment and what happened to the supposed remains in the 11 empty pits.

Please don't come back with insults and abuses as distractions.

gregyboy:


You're not that smart.

(1) You said the translation of regnum orguene it means kingdom of oghene if translated into English i did my own research and i found nothing like that, if you dont mind post a screenshot of the translation....

(2) The geographical location of the wriiten document of regnum orguene gives otherwise

See at Picture 1


Also you're a very mischievous fellow

You are still here struggling for your life!

You're actually replying to the wrong comment oo. I have since began another issue and moved. No time!

Anyways, I'm glad I eventually gave you the courage to kill your irrational technophonbia.

You can now confidently search some materials by yourself. Wow! A great leap.

(1) Having said that, Regnum Orguene --- like I have said --- is latin for Kingdom of the Oghene.

"Regnum" is a latin word meaning "Kingdom", while "Orguene" is a laitinization of the name "Oghene" which the Europeans had learnt from Benin kingdom.

"Oghene" does not exist originally as a European word, it has to be latinized to be rendered in a European tongue.

And some other renderings include: Ogane, Hooganee, etc. Names aren't translated, lad.

Wait, I am not sure why you held back from at least writting the meaning you found of Regnum Orguene.

Did you think I will beat you?

(2) Can you please point out the difference (if any) between the visual delineation of the Kingdom of the Oghene (as shown in the attached map), and the textual description of the Kingdom of the Oghene (as shown in your own attachment).

I am waiting! Wait what was your grade in WASSCE Geography??

TAO11:


You are still here struggling for your life!

You're actually replying to the wrong comment oo. I have since began another issue and moved. No time!

Anyways, I'm glad I eventually gave you the courage to kill your irrational technophonbia.

You can now confidently search some materials by yourself. Wow! A great leap.

(1) Having said that, Regnum Orguene --- like I have said --- is latin for Kingdom of the Oghene.

"Regnum" is a latin word meaning "Kingdom", while "Orguene" is a laitinization of the name "Oghene" which the Europeans had learnt from Benin kingdom.

"Oghene" does not exist originally as a European word, it has to be latinized to be rendered in a European tongue.

And some other renderings include: Ogane, Hooganee, etc. Names aren't translated, lad.

Wait, I am not sure why you held back from at least writting the meaning you found of Regnum Orguene.

Did you think I will beat you?

(2) Can you please point out the difference (if any) between the visual delineation of the Kingdom of the Oghene (as shown in the attached map), and the textual description of the Kingdom of the Oghene (as shown in your own attachment).

I am waiting! Wait what was your grade in WASSCE Geography??

Screenshot says otherwise do you need the link

Kingdom of oghene wasnt refferd by the edos as ife

Now get it right

A non edo is called an uhe( meaning stranger)
Regardless if its igbo or yoruba

Oghene means priest like wise ohenhen

So literally the edo told the Portuguese that the most powerful person down the river niger
Is a stranger priest and this was at 14c while benin had not attain the position of a city

Unless you want to prove a a foreign research work who owes no tribe any form of bigotries ife and benin thesame link you posted to me

samuk:


You can only imagine if these guys had access to world institutions that houses Benin world acclaimed records and achievements.

No matter what they come up with, there is very little they can do to undo or even diminished past Benin glories and greatness.

Where are they going to start from, is it to discredit the Benin moat that even surpassed any human structure ever built by man on planet earth at that time or is it the numerous art works that adores museums across the world, from Europe, Canada, America and Australia to mention a few.

Apart from these fabrication and distortions of Benin history online, what else do you really expect from this guys.

Imagine growing up to read in your history how Benin once decimated your land and beheaded your Obas and ruled over your land and people for whatever reason for centuries until the British came to liberate your people, what will you do, especially when you can't physically avenge the past.

Would you not also resort to the only weapons within your reach to piss and shit all over their history, would you not be angry that no matter what you write, there are still aspects of their history that are beyond reach.

What will you and can you do about their art works across the world still showcasing their greatness in far away lands to people of today and yet unborn, the moat, the greatest fit by any race, numerous documents in European archives spanning hundreds of years detailing eye witness accounts of their past glories and greatness, the bight of Benin, an international body of water carrying the name of Benin as a mark of recognition for it's greatness. Today, a country also bears the name Benin.

We sometimes have to allow these people to enjoy themselves online as a feel good factor.

There is a saying in Benin that after you beat up a child, you don't or shouldn't also deny the child the opportunity to cry.

samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee

Please i need your attention

I want us to weigh the truth behind the ife and benin history because the history its so watery with no substantiall evidence no research has been done on it to validate its truth before, i read an article that disproved there was ever a relationship between both tribes outall


Please all concerned benin peope should drop thier whatsapp number here lets privately review this relationship on whatsapp, we may have been going on this history the wrong way

gomojam:
Lol, You are the pained one here.

We have left you ignorant benins for too long to peddle and revel in ignorance because of the cultural influence thus some similarities via Oranmiyan obaship dynasty. This why Ogedengbe did not ravage your entire kingdom when he visited carnage and slave raiding upon your people enroute akoko, your wise oba had to appease him.

Also, Ibadan would have ravaged your Benin if not for these same reasons too. You claimed many eastern Yoruba towns were under benins subjugation. Why didn't your army halt Ibadan's encroachment and foraging deep into the ekiti and Akoko country?

Yoruba are the most sophisticated group I Nigeria. If you have otherwise fact against this feel free to express. Thank you

Kikikikiki. Nor be only Ogedengbe, na Agodogodo. What could have been doesn't matter in war. The leader of the Gauls Vercingetorix nearly defeated Julius Caesar in Alesia in France. But he didn't. Caesar went on to become the most famous general and quasi emperor in history.

I doubt even Ogedengbe History. Even if true, Nigeria is being bloodied by ragtag Boko, Russia had to pull out of Afghanistan and King Darius dealt Alexander the Great much blows initially.

Only novices underestimate the enemy in war. A seemingly weak enemy can be initially tougher than thought. But at the end the better warrior wins by hook or by crook.

Point of correction : Benin lead Midwest to leave the British contraption called Western Nigeria. Not the other way round. The pain of it is still raw. Hence you guys keep making unguarded utterances.

It was also a careless utterance by the Alake in the Western parliament back then that made Oba Akenzua to lead Midwest to walk out. And leaving Western region was sealed. That was the most constitutionally possible. Were outright secession legally possible, Midwest would have triggered that option to detach completely.

SW people talk a lot. SS people act. SW Brag, throw insults around and threaten. Yet no action. Such does not impresss us. That's no sophistication. Midwest acted after West talked anyhow. That's the difference.

When a Yoruba person says the truth going against tribal position, he is Omale. A lying Yoruba that toes tribal line is Omoluabi. Hence we are all suffering the Nigerian mess together under Hausa-Fukani. Because of your " sophistication".

Sophistication is the new rave with the SW. Benin was already described in terms better than that back in 1470s. So such a term is a bit lake to us over 550 years later.

gomojam:
Lol, You are the pained one here.

We have left you ignorant benins for too long to peddle and revel in ignorance because of the cultural influence thus some similarities via Oranmiyan obaship dynasty. This why Ogedengbe did not ravage your entire kingdom when he visited carnage and slave raiding upon your people enroute akoko, your wise oba had to appease him.

Also, Ibadan would have ravaged your Benin if not for these same reasons too. You claimed many eastern Yoruba towns were under benins subjugation. Why didn't your army halt Ibadan's encroachment and foraging deep into the ekiti and Akoko country?

Yoruba are the most sophisticated group I Nigeria. If you have otherwise fact against this feel free to express. Thank you

Kikikikiki. Nor be only Ogedengbe, na Agodogodo.

What could have been doesn't matter in war.

In 52BC, the leader of the Gauls Vercingetorix nearly defeated Julius Caesar in Alesia in France. But he didn't. Caesar went on to become the most famous general and quasi emperor in history.

I doubt even Ogedengbe History. Even if true, Nigeria is being bloodied by ragtag Boko, Russia had to pull out of Afghanistan and King Darius dealt Alexander the Great much blows initially.

Only novices underestimate the enemy in war. A seemingly weak enemy can be initially tougher than thought. But at the end the better warrior wins by hook or by crook.

Point of correction : Benin lead Midwest to leave the British contraption called Western Nigeria. Not the other way round. The pain of it is still raw. Hence you guys keep making unguarded utterances.

It was also a careless utterance by the Alake in the Western parliament back then that made Oba Akenzua to lead Midwest to walk out. And leaving Western region was sealed. That was the most constitutionally possible. Were outright secession legally possible, Midwest would have triggered that option to detach completely.

SW people talk a lot. SS people act. SW Brag, throw insults around and threaten. Yet no action. Such does not impresss us. That's no sophistication. Midwest acted after West talked anyhow. That's the difference.

When a Yoruba person says the truth going against tribal position, he is Omale. A lying Yoruba that toes tribal line is Omoluabi. Hence we are all suffering the Nigerian mess together under Hausa-Fulani. Because of your " sophistication".

Sophistication is the new rave with the SW. Benin was already described in terms better than that back in 1470s. So such a term is a bit lame to us over 550 years later.

gregyboy:

samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee

Please i need your attention

I want us to weigh the truth behind the ife and benin history because the history its so watery with no substantiall evidence no research has been done on it to validate its truth before, i read an article that disproved there was ever a relationship between both tribes outall


Please all concerned benin peope should drop thier whatsapp number here lets privately review this relationship on whatsapp, we may have been going on this history the wrong way

There are more authentic sources of Benin history these guys are not even aware of.

There were nothing said or written about Benin/Ife relationship in the first 200 years of European visitations to Benin.

But not to distract from TAO11. reply which I am eagerly waiting for.

I will like to see the lies and fabrications he will come up with this time to dig himself and his sources out of the hole he puts them.

samuk:


There are more authentic sources of Benin history these guys are not even aware of.

There were nothing said or written about Benin/Ife relationship in the first 200 years of European visitations to Benin.

But not to distract from TAO11. reply which I am eagerly waiting for.

I will like to see the lies and fabrications he will come up with this time to dig himself and his sources out of the hole he puts them.

Add me up on whatsapp

08155024814

gregyboy:



(1) Screenshot says otherwise do you need the link

(2) Kingdom of oghene wasnt refferd by the edos as ife

(3) Now get it right. A non edo is called an uhe( meaning stranger). Regardless if its igbo or yoruba

(4) Oghene means priest like wise ohenhen

[s]So literally the edo told the Portuguese that the most powerful person down the river niger
Is a stranger priest and this was at 14c while benin had not attain the position of a city[/s]

Unless you want to prove a a foreign research work who owes no tribe any form of bigotries ife and benin

(5) thesame link you posted to me

(1) The screenshot you attached is of a section of page 35, of A. F. C. Ryder's work viz. "A Reconsideration of the Ife-Benin Relationship" published in The Journal of African History, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1965), pp.25-37 --- An expert's work!

So, don't bother about any "link" I have had a copy of this work since years ago.

What you should instead bother about is to learn to always cite references, and not simply assume that any text found in electronic soft form on the WWW is authoritative.

If I hadn't already read this particular work before and knew it to be A. F. C. Ryder's, I cannot possibly have trusted its author to be an expert just because it's a written text in electronic soft form found on the WWW.

Having said that, Ryder was writting here at a time when the specific identification of the Ogane --- by historians --- was still a work in progress and not final and definitive.

This doubt is clearly admited by Ryder himself and noticeable in his own conclusion, even after a painstaking identification effort --- he said "most probably".

He himself obviously admits that his conclusion here is not final, conclusive, and definitive.

An important fact to remember is that this his probabilistic conclusion was reached in the year 1965.

Now fast forward to fifty-one years later when historians have had access to more data, their conclusion moved from individual conflicting probabilistic conclusions to a general definitive consensus on the identification of the Ogane.

And both the date and the tone of the historical work I cited match this scholarly shift and progress.

The work I cited was from 2016 and the conclusion says: "... Ogane ... whom SCHOLARS NOW identified with the Yoruba ruler of Ife, in modern-day Nigeria ..."

See the attachment below for a reminder of the details and the reference.

(2) Yes, the Kingdom of the "Oghene" is "Ife" according to the "Benin people".

Let's listen to Omo N'Oba N'Edo Erediauwa II one more time in his 2004 The Benin-Ife Connectioon:

See here: https://www.edo-nation.net/erediauwa1.htm


(3) Lol. Whether or not the Edo noun "Uhe" can also apply to a person is irrelevant here. And I think you're lying, because I've always known that apart from place, it applies to thing, namely: "v@g!n@".

But whether it applies to thing and person is irrelevant, because when applied to place, it refers specifically and exclusively to Ife.

The evidence for this can be also found in the same work of Omo N'Oba Erediauwa II already cited above.

See here: See here: https://www.edo-nation.net/erediauwa1.htm


(4) Earlier on in the course of this exchange, your excuse was that "Oghene" could mean "God" or "King".

However, you've now turned around to claim that "Oghene" means "Priest".

Even if I pretend not to see your contradiction and thus assume that what you meant is that "Oghene" could mean any of "God", "King", or "Priest".

I have already debunked any such excuses when I cited Eweka 1992, wherein the same Oba Erediauwa II was noted to have claimed that:

It was "Supreme God" himself who gave birth to the first Oba of Benin as his last born son.

E. B. Eweka: Evolution of Benin Chieftancy Titles. Benin: Uniben Press, (1992) cited in Roger Blench and Matthew Spriggs: Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, (2004), p.314.

So, riddle me --- according to official Bini accounts --- whom the first Oba of Benin who also happens to be his father's last born son is.

This is obviously Oranmiyan no matter the extent of your gymnastics.

And his father who gave birth to him as his last born son --- according to official Bini account --- is no other that the then Ooni of Ife.

It is therefore this Ooni that is being referred to above, by Omo N'Oba Erediauwa II, specifically with the words "Supreme God" --- not merely King or Priest.

So, your excuse falls flat on its nose.

(5) Regarding Ogane, I never posted you any link. I simply attached you the same attachment below.

And the 2016 reference is I have attached is obviously different.

The 2016 academic reference is reflective of the contemporary unanimous scholarly certitude, in contrast to the 1965 scholarly article you had attached which reflects the then conflicting solitary probabilistic identification of the Ogane.

Cheers to your growth!

gregyboy:



Add me up on whatsapp

08155024814

No! Lol. Just kidding.

samuk:


There are more authentic sources of Benin history these guys are not even aware of.

There were nothing said or written about Benin/Ife relationship in the first 200 years of European visitations to Benin.

But not to distract from TAO11. reply which I am eagerly waiting for.

I will like to see the lies and fabrications he will come up with this time to dig himself and his sources out of the hole he puts them.

Sure, extant European documentations did show that they heard about Ife, but from the name of its powerful monarch, Oghene rendered Ogane.

Today scholars are now unanimous who d'Aveiro's' Ogane is.

See attachment below:

Moreover, I will certainly get to you --- Don't hasten your punishment. I was dealing with your brother as you can see from my comments.

TAO11:


Sure extant European documentations did show that they heard about Ife, but from the name of its powerful monarch, Oghene rendered Ogane.

Today scholars are now unanimous who d'Aveiro's Ogane is.

See attachment below:

Moreover, I will certainly get to you --- Don't hasten your punishment. I was dealing with your brother as you can see from my comments.

Are you conceding and running away from the below questions, let me know so that we can move on.

Let's for once ignore the contradictions in the two sources you cited and assume that the remains of the Obas of Benin that were claimed to have been taken to Ife meant the heads alone.

You claimed eleven empty burial pits were found in Orun Oba Ado and one of your sources claimed that every third-reigns Oba was taken to Ife.

Considering that the numbers of Obas of Benin are well documented, please do the enumeration and tell us if your numbers add up.

Assuming the empty pit at Orun Oba Ado once contained the remains of Benin Obas what happened to the remains, why are the pits empty.

I warned you and your fellow revisionist to stick to your Oduduwa fairytale and stay out of Benin history.

You have now dug yourself and your sources a bigger hole.

I am waiting for the result of the simple arithmetic assignment and what happened to the supposed remains in the 11 empty pits.

Please don't come back with insults and abuses as distractions.

gregyboy:

samuk
ghostwon
davidnazee

Please i need your attention

I want us to weigh the truth behind the ife and benin history because the history its so watery with no substantiall evidence no research has been done on it to validate its truth before, i read an article that disproved there was ever a relationship between both tribes outall


Please all concerned benin peope should drop thier whatsapp number here lets privately review this relationship on whatsapp, we may have been going on this history the wrong way

Have you read anything which I have ever written ?
I have said everything needed to be said on this topic, several times. You never listen. I will soon deactivate my account anyway. When I say stop discussing fairytales and the next thing you do is dive deep into fairytale discussion and then you call my name to waste some more of my time ?

"we have been going on this history the wrong way"

Why am I included in the "we" ?

My comments are on nairaland, read them and don't call my name again. Thank you.