Rousseau:

I still do not see why there is so much hostility towards the toll collection for the Lekki Expressway. It will provide some much needed revenue for Lagos. This revenue in turn can help improve the road system throughout the entire city. My complaint with Nigeria, is that we have so few taxes. The government derives much of its income from the oil revenue and not through taxes. This does not help the Nigerian people, because the government does derive its power from the people. So how can a people have a say in the government, when the government itself is not beholden to the people?

It's called shortsightedness. They are basically fighting against their own interest and they don't even know it.

I can't believe people are complaining about double taxation when the government is not even taxing the petrol in their cars to build and fix roads, tax cigarettes to fund health programs.

They want everything, but ignore the fact that everything got to be paid for. Developed nations did not arrived at development by accident or for free, people are sacrificing and paying for everything.


We have a long way to go in Nigeria, unfortunately, we are not ready for prime time. The government should be able to say, hey people, lets create a special and untouchable road fund to build and fix roads in Lagos by paying 1 penny tax on everything we buy and on payroll.  

Just look at the great security trust fun initiative by the governor, though it's voluntary, but they managed to get from it the best and the most effective and equipped police in Nigeria, they bought 2 new crime fighting helicopters, armored personnel carriers, power bikes, bullet proof vests, communication gadgets, patrol cars and police stations.


I truly believe we'll get there because I trust Lagosians and believe in their capacity to always do the right thing and keep the state ahead of others.  Good or bad, this fight between the people and the government is true democracy and this shall be resolved and we'll gladly move on to better things like we always do. What matters most to every Lagosian is [b]Eko o ni baje [/b]because it's not just a slogan, it's a state of mind.

The state government should not play to the gallery by delaying commencement of toll collection. It sure sends wrong signals to other investors who are closely watching/monitoring the outcome of this transaction. Let the government not renege. If however there are issues with amount charged, which ordinarily should have been spelt out in the original agreement, dialogue, and not shifting goal post after the goal has been scored(after the deed has been done), (typical Nigerian style) should be adopted.

babapupa:


You are not making any sense my friend. Please recompose and resend your thoughts.

I suspected you were not very bright, but I'm more inclined to believe that you are hiding the inadequacies of your position on Fashola's actions, in your supposed ignorance or inability to understand my post.  You don't fool me buddy.

Good move, let them simply provide an alternative road and they can kick-off tolling.

Citizens must have options to a tolled road Period!

babapupa:


It's called shortsightedness. They are basically fighting against their own interest and they don't even know it.

I can't believe people are complaining about double taxation when the government is not even taxing the petrol in their cars to build and fix roads, tax cigarettes to fund health programs.

They want everything, but ignore the fact that everything got to be paid for. Developed nations did not arrived at development by accident or for free, people are sacrificing and paying for everything.


We have a long way to go in Nigeria, unfortunately, we are not ready for prime time. The government should be able to say, hey people, lets create a special and untouchable road fund to build and fix roads in Lagos by paying 1 penny tax on everything we buy and on payroll.  

Just look at the great security trust fun initiative by the governor, though it's voluntary, but they managed to get from it the best and the most effective and equipped police in Nigeria, they bought 2 new crime fighting helicopters, armored personnel carriers, power bikes, bullet proof vests, communication gadgets, patrol cars and police stations.


I truly believe we'll get there because I trust Lagosians and believe in their capacity to always do the right thing and keep the state ahead of others.  Good or bad, this fight between the people and the government is true democracy and this shall be resolved and we'll gladly move on to better things like we always do. What matters most to every Lagosian is [b]Eko o ni baje [/b]because it's not just a slogan, it's a state of mind.

You are absolutely  right about our shortsightedness.   Someone once said that we Nigerians like to go to the moon but we don't like rockets.   We don't like paying taxes  but we complain about bad roads and hospitals.   We think that because we are an oil producing country, we should get all public  services for free.  One thing that makes me laugh is the demand by some people that the Lekki road fence should be removed.   Once that happens freeloaders will be driving on a road that was reconstructed with billions of naira of other people's money.  It has already been made clear here that there is an alternative route, but no, we prefer to use the six lane one, free of charge.  My people awoof dey kill.

three tolls on an uncompleted road with no alternative of acceptable quality?
This is a no brainer.

This is exactly what  I have been saying since this issue first boke on NL . I have a house(Rented out) in Oba Adeyinka Oyekan Estate, Lekki.

I have lived in Lekki for a while before moving to the U.S. and still go back and forth there. The Point some of us have ever made is not that tolling is not welcome in the state. The point we made to the Governor early this year (Lekki landlords association) is, Provide alternative routes for Christ sake since you're hell bent on tolling a refurbished and existing road. Now some people are fighting each other here, calling names and citing the U.S. Na wa oh!

I live in Houston, Tx. and I pay toll (EZ tags etc.) if I want a quicker journey but there are other routes if I chose to roll on those.

kulutempa:


You are absolutely  right about our shortsightedness.   Someone once said that we Nigerians like to go to the moon but we don't like rockets.   We don't like paying taxes  but we complain about bad roads and hospitals.   We think that because we are an oil producing country, we should get all public  services for free.  One thing that makes me laugh is the demand by some people that the Lekki road fence should be removed.   Once that happens freeloaders will be driving on a road that was reconstructed with billions of naira of other people's money.  It has already been made clear here that there is an alternative route, but no, we prefer to use the six lane one, free of charge.  My people awoof dey kill.

I think you people are missing the point of Fashola's actions. There is obvious value in toll collection where the terms of the toll collection contract are fairly negotiated. Fashola's action should make way for a well re-negotiated contract wherein the interest of the state is well protected.  Let the agrieved parties go to court at argue their case.  Fashoa's actions in this case are brilliant. In the end Lagos will come out on top while the thieving participants in the toll collection contract be the losers.

ndu_chucks:

I think you people are missing the point of Fashola's actions. There is obvious value in toll collection where the terms of the toll collection contract are fairly negotiated. Fashola's action should make way for a well re-negotiated contract wherein the interest of the state is well protected. Let the agrieved parties go to court at argue their case. Fashoa's actions in this case are brilliant. In the end Lagos will come out on top while the thieving participants in the toll collection contract be the losers.

Yeah right, and in a few years time you go abroad on roadshows to ask the same people to come and invest in your country. If that isn't shortsightedness, I don't know what else it is.

Limaoscar:

I have lived in Lekki for a while before moving to the U.S. and still go back and forth there. The Point some of us have ever made is not that tolling is not welcome in the state. The point we made to the Governor early this year (Lekki landlords association) is,[b] Provide  alternative routes for Christ sake [/b]since you're hell bent on tolling a refurbished and existing road. Now some people are fighting each other here, calling names and citing the U.S.  Na wa oh!

I live in Houston, Tx. and I pay toll (EZ tags etc.) if I want a quicker journey but there are other routes if I chose to roll on those.

there is already an alternative route posted on LCC Website and if you guys want a new "six lane" alternative route, how on earth can lagos pay for it with it N2 billion budget. the same alternative route you are calling for will also be tolled (ppp).

and of-course houston already has multiple alternative routes. most of houstons highways were built since the cold war (1970s). Lekki on the other hand has one expressway.

kulutempa:

Yeah right, and in a few years time you go abroad on roadshows to ask the same people to come and invest in your country. If that isn't shortsightedness, I don't know what else it is.

Don't be s.illy! The profit margins on these projects are enough to make them return for more, over and over and over again. Go and ask Halliburton and others.

ndu_chucks:

Don't be s.illy! The profit margins on these projects are enough to make them return for more, over and over and over again.  Go and ask Halliburton and others.

How do you know this? What is the profit margin on the project? I am 95% sure that it is lower than the enormous interest rates Nigerian banks charge.

How much profit would be acceptable to you?

Perhaps we should estimate how much revenue they'll be bringing in from the toll road each year versus the capital invested.

ndu_chucks:

Don't be s.illy! The profit margins on these projects are enough to make them return for more, over and over and over again. Go and ask Halliburton and others.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Halliburton bribed government officials to get a fat juicy contract, not to run a BOT concession with banks and investors money on the line.  Major difference there.  Finally would you by any chance have any evidence of what those "profit margins" are, or is this just beer parlour talk?

babapupa:


LMAO. Look at this olodo. School yourself with your lies and deception. You posted a bogus 419 link.
You're running your mouth about Chicago, but you're still incapable of pulling up the city's budget online which I did in less than 10 seconds, now you want me to click on a bogus link. What for? To look at some blank screen? What an i.diot. Thank me for doing what your lying a/s/s should have done and incapable of doing.
Again, what's your point again. You ran your mouth about Chicago having their budget and spending on line and Lagos state is not because their officials are thieves.
That was a lie and you were too lazy to or just took clueless to do what any capable adult should have done which is going to the state's website before making false claims and spreading lies. It took me less than 10 seconds to pull up Lagos state's budget and spending.
You really need to stop making a fool of yourself and exposing your ignorance and incapabilities, Stop lying, lying is evil.

Yeah m.o.r.on, I’m back. You forced me to do a more detailed research. Here are some links ranging crimie monitoring to government expenditures to campaign funding. Digest it well retard. http://publicrecords.searchsystems.net/Free_Public_Records_by_Type_of_Record/Government_Employees/   http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Public_employee_salary     http://publicrecords.onlinesearches.com/IL_Cook.htm.

Hope you can understand it. If you cant then give me a holla. M.o.r.on

P.s I suspect you are lacky campaign tool for the tinubu/fashola team. There is something strange about this you blind dogged retard loyalty. It’s impressive even for a r.eetard.

kulutempa:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Halliburton bribed government officials to get a fat juicy contract, not to run a BOT concession with banks and investors money on the line. Major difference there. Finally would you by any chance have any evidence of what those "profit margins" are, or is this just beer parlour talk?

kulutempa, you know better than this post of yours. This is not the medium for litigation - it suffices to say that aggrieved parties, if they have the guts, should go to court and seek relief. If Fashola believes that the original contract was criminal or grossly unfair to Lagosian tax payers, then it would be irresponsible of him not to seek a better deal. What are you guys afraid of, go to court or renegotiate the deal! Fashola did the right thing.

Fowl wey no want make wind open him yansh no dey smell court to seek relief.

ndu_chucks:

kulutempa, you know better than this post of yours. This is not the medium for litigation - it suffices to say that aggrieved parties, if they have the guts, should go to court and seek relief. If Fashola believes that the original contract was criminal or grossly unfair to Lagosian tax payers, then it would be irresponsible of him not to seek a better deal. What are you guys afraid of, go to court or renegotiate the deal! Fashola did the right thing.

Fowl wey no want make wind open him yansh no dey smell court to seek relief.

Absolutely sir, but you know what, there is also a wise old saying which is: be nice to people you meet when you are climbing a ladder because you may meet them again on the way down. Worse still they may remove the ladder when you need it the most.

ndu_chucks:

Don't be s.illy! The profit margins on these projects are enough to make them return for more, over and over and over again.  Go and ask Halliburton and others.

Yes ke!

ndu_chucks, Allow me to buttress your point with this excerpt from a Fortune Magazine interview with Ann Pickard, Shell's EVP for Africa (the lady quoted in the Wikileaks cable)

Fortune: "And while Nigeria accounts for about a 10% of Shell’s worldwide oil and gas production, the country’s contribution to Shell’s profits is much lower given the nation’s sky-high royalty rates. The Nigerian government keeps about 95% of all oil and gas profits. "Why then does Shell tough it out? In Nigeria (italics mine)


Pickard notes that there aren’t a lot of other oil-rich countries rolling out the welcome mat for Western oil companies these days.
Pickard: “When I give speeches, there’s a map I show that color-codes oil producing regions based on their openness to multi-national oil companies. Green is most open, and red is least,” Pickard says. “Well, the entire world is starting to turn red against us. I’ve got Russia turning red, Venezuela turning red, Bolivia turning red. The Middle East is almost entirely red.[/b] “Right now, Nigeria is the biggest green out there.”


Now, I've enjoyed the constructive exchanges here, it does not get more democratic than these. People complained and it seems Fashola is reacting to the complaints. I hope he'll continue to listen. like I mentioned earlier on the thread, regardless of which side you fall into, Our leaders should protect our peoples' interests! foreign investors know how to protect theirs, They are not silly!

Question is, are we?


http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/20/news/companies/birger_pickard.fortune/?postversion=2008112107

Edit: link added

kulutempa:

Absolutely sir, but you know what, there is also a wise old saying which is: be nice to people you meet when you are climbing a ladder because you may meet them again on the way down. Worse still they may remove the ladder when you need it the most.

Wake up and smell the coffee!! Progressives like Fashola are, sooner rather than later, going to be in the majority. Empty threats such as yours on behalf of your ogas are just that, empty! If you call people who robbed Lagosians blind while in power, and did nothing tangible for the state during their tenure, as exposed by Fashola's gains, good people, then your values are at the very least, inadequate.

@Kilode?! Thanks a lot. I appreciate your comments.

@kilode?i,  this is the most number of comments I have posted on Nairaland and I have to say that it has been a very stimulating and enlightening discussion.  I would however rephrase your last question slightly in this way:  when it comes to the issue of investments, particularly for infrastructure development,  do we need them more than they need us or alternatively, can we afford to tell them to eff off?  That to me is the billion dollar question.

ndu_chucks:

Wake up and smell the coffee!! Progressives like Fashola are, sooner rather than later, going to be in the majority. Empty threats such as yours on behalf of your ogas are just that, empty! If you call people who robbed Lagosians blind while in power, and did nothing tangible for the state during their tenure, as exposed by Fashola's gains, good people, then your values are at the very least, inadequate.

@Kilode?! Thanks a lot. I appreciate your comments.

I thought we were having a civilised intellectual discussion here. Why don't we try to keep it that way instead of making personal attacks and throwing insults which are best left to lowlifes.

kulutempa. no vex. I needed to make that emphasis to point out how ridiculous your claims were.

Now, what is wrong with renegotiating a bad contract?

The following is a very rough attempt to estimate the profitability of the road.
--------------------
Alright, so it appears they are spending roughly 50 billion Naira to complete the road, so $330 million ($6.7 million per kilometer.)

For me, if I'm investing in a 3rd world country like Nigeria from abroad, I'd want 20-30% ROI, minimum (let's use 20% for now.) So they'd need to generate $66 million after expenses. Estimate road maintenance, depreciation, various other expenses etc at say $10 million/year or so? So they need to rake in $76 million/year to be worthwhile, roughly $208K/day.

Hard to aggregate their cost schedule over all the different classes of vehicles and of course the distribution of vehicles that ply the road, but it seems reasonable to guess that the saloon cars will dominate the traffic. So let's say N120 per car at each toll. Given 3 tolls, this is N360, or $2.40. Taking into the 10% discount offered for the eTag, drops down average money LCC earns per car to $2.16.

So they'd need 97K vehicles per day plying the road in order to hit this 20% ROI figure. Their estimate seems to be that currently 85K vehicles ply the road every day (http://www.lcc.com.ng/_Docs/LekkiTollRoadUserGuidev1May2010f7b74c93-c011-4cb8-ab81-e2d0526b7b9d.pdf).

Using the numbers I sourced and guessed at above, they wouldn't hit this 20% figure. But perhaps my guessed numbers are off in some way; those with more expertise should chime in. It is also very possible that over the next 30 years with the natural population growth of Lagos, the population that plies the road will grow substantially, and thus the road will be more profitable, so that is something that also needs to be taken into account.

All in all though, I'm not necessarily sure that this will be a huge money-making scheme. The profits will be good, but not insane.

kulutempa:

@kilode?i,  this is the most number of comments I have posted on Nairaland and I have to say that it has been a very stimulating and enlightening discussion.  I would however rephrase your last question slightly in this way:  when it comes to the issue of investments, particularly for infrastructure development,  do we need them more than they need us or alternatively, can we afford to tell them to eff off?  That to me is the billion dollar question.

Kulutempa, It's a great question!

Kwame Nkrumah and other African leaders asked the same in the early days of African independence. My opinion is that they did not adequately consider the answers before acting. Nigeria asked the same when we found oil, my opinion is that we often allow investors; local and foreign profiteers answer for us.

I will rephrase and ask again;

Are we going to keep on selling our people short?

Will leadership in Africa/Nigeria continue to put profit(personal and ego) before the people?

It is not a Billion dollar Question sir! It is a Billion people question. Accountability counts!

@eku_bear, I believe that Fashola strongly disagrees with the LCC's estimate you posted above. To be fair to yourself, please try to find Fashola's estimates and you may discover that, the numbers you posted are grossly overstated.

You also wrote that they are spending $6.7 million per kilometer!!!  Does that bother you at all? Is the road plated in diamonds?? In places like the USA and Germany, the cost of such roads is $1.5 million cost per mile, not kilometer/ Note that Labour is quite cheap in Nigeria as well.

Why do you object to revisiting the contract in question for the betterment of Lagosians?

ndu_chucks:

kulutempa. no vex. I needed to make that emphasis to point out how ridiculous your claims were.

Now, what is wrong with renegotiating a bad contract?

@ndu_chucks, that's alright.   You see I have already addressed the issue of renegotiating contracts in an earlier comment, but  I will deal with it again.  The reason why renegotiating a contract good or bad, is risky, is that it creates uncertaintly particularly when large sums of money are involved.  And if there is one thing money hates, it's uncertainty and instability.  That is why most people given the choice, would prefer to invest their money in Dubai as opposed to say Somalia and Afghanistan.  The danger with trying to renegotiate what you consider to be a bad contract after you sign it, is that the other party thinks that you are trying to take advantage of him because he thinks you should, like him have considered all the loopholes and problems before signing the dotted line.  It becomes even more risky when you need foreign investors to invest in your country, because they would see what is happening and either avoid investing in what they consider to be such an uncertain environment, or they would  only deal with you on terms that are very strict and not particularly favourable to you.  This is why most countries try to observe international treaties and agreements because once you start moving the goal posts or playing fast with the rules your risk profile immediately goes up and fewer people want to do business with you.  As some people will say:  na so I see am o.

ndu_chucks:

@eku_bear, I believe that Fashola strongly disagrees with the LCC's estimate you posted above. To be fair to yourself, please try to find Fashola's estimates and you may discover that, the numbers you posted are grossly overstated.

If you happen to have more specific numbers, please post them (or a link). A bit easier than me googling fruitlessly for them, don't you think?

You also wrote that they are spending $6.7 million per kilometer!!!  Does that bother you at all? Is the road plated in diamonds?? In places like the USA and Germany, the cost of such roads is $1.5 million cost per mile, not kilometer

Absolutely no way it is possible to get that latter price in an urban area like Lagos:
http://www.railstotrails.org/resources/documents/whatwedo/policy/07-29-2008%20Generic%20Response%20to%20Cost%20per%20Lane%20Mile%20for%20widening%20and%20new%20construction.pdf
ftp://ftp.dot.state.fl.us/LTS/CO/Estimates/CPM/summary.pdf

The $6.7 mil per km might be too high, but the $1.5 mil per mile ($940k per kilometer) is way too low. Might be able to do that in Ekiti State, but no chance of getting it done that cheaply in Lagos.

kulutempa:


@ndu_chucks, that's alright.   You see I have already addressed the issue of renegotiating contracts in an earlier comment, but  I will deal with it again.  The reason why renegotiating a contract good or bad, is risky, is that it creates uncertaintly particularly when large sums of money are involved.  And if there is one thing money hates, it's uncertainty and instability.  That is why most people given the choice, would prefer to invest their money in Dubai as opposed to say Somalia and Afghanistan.  The danger with trying to renegotiate what you consider to be a bad contract after you sign it, is that the other party thinks that you are trying to take advantage of him because he thinks you should, like him have considered all the loopholes and problems before signing the dotted line.  It becomes even more risky when you need foreign investors to invest in your country, because they would see what is happening and either avoid investing in what they consider to be such an uncertain environment, or they would  only deal with you on terms that are very strict and not particularly favourable to you.  This is why most countries try to observe international treaties and agreements because once you start moving the goal posts or playing fast with the rules your risk profile immediately goes up and fewer people want to do business with you.  As some people will say:  na so I see am o.

Your points are quite valid.  Note however, that the risk of having the contract renegotiated or even outright cancelled, has already been factored into the decision making process of the parties involved. Everyone knows that this is not unexpected in Nigeria.  The only thing that is certain is that, everyone will make plenty of money at the end of the day.

Fashola is armed with more information than we have and we should give him the benefit of the doubt in this case. Additionally, some risks are worth taking. Judging from all the money ready  to be invested in Lagos from just about every corner of the globe, one can easily conclude that Fashola’s action poses no significant risk to Lagosians.

eku_bear:


The $6.7 mil per km might be too high, but the $1.5 mil per mile ($940k per kilometer) is way too low. Might be able to do that in Ekiti State, but no chance of getting it done that cheaply in Lagos.

You may be uninformed. Assuming that one of the most expensive bridges, a cantilever bridge, is constucted throughout the length of this road, building material costs will be no more than $1million per mile, so what is unique about Lagos to add additional $5/6million per mile to construction costs? I'm assuming that the $5m is not the normal 9ija consideration which routinely travels under the table. Mind you, we are not talking about building a cantilever bridge here.

ndu_chucks:

I suspected you were not very bright, but I'm more inclined to believe that you are hiding the inadequacies of your position on Fashola's actions, in your supposed ignorance or inability to understand my post.  You don't fool me buddy.

You are not doing anything special, even a day old kid sabi how to throw insults. I asked you recompose and resend your thoughts, not regurgitate the same meaningless and irrelevant rubbish that's got nothing to do with and not contributing anything to do topic.

Please act like you know how to read and write. Now, go do what I asked you to do,

bidemi12:

Yeah m.o.r.on, I’m back. You forced me to do a more detailed research. Here are some links ranging crimie monitoring to government expenditures to campaign funding. Digest it well not-so-smart person. http://publicrecords.searchsystems.net/Free_Public_Records_by_Type_of_Record/Government_Employees/   http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Public_employee_salary     http://publicrecords.onlinesearches.com/IL_Cook.htm.

Hope you can understand it. If you cant then give me a holla. M.o.r.on

P.s I suspect you are lacky campaign tool for the tinubu/fashola team. There is something strange about this you blind dogged not-so-smart person loyalty. It’s impressive even for a r.eetard.

Unfortunately for your .dumb a/s/s, you were asked to provide links detailing Chicago's budget and spending, the links you posted said no such thing, stop your 419 madness. The links are about federal employee salaries and government parastatals. Nothing about budget, talk less Chicago budget. 

You know I'm siting here patting myself on the back for putting up with your idiocy?

#1 Failure. First, you propped up a corrupt city as a good example of good financial governance and I busted that by showing clearly with facts that they are way corrupt and many of their officials are in jail or going to jail.   You are a lair.

#2 Failure. You said lagos state officials are crooked and that's why they didn't put their budget and spending on their website. You lied because the budget and spending is on the state's website and I posted the link to expose your lie. You also refused to come up with Chicago's budget which I did in less than 10 seconds, instead, you posted a dead and fake link to fool yourself. You are a lair.


#3 Failure. You were incapable of doing the most basic think that a high schooler could do in seconds which is obtaining basic info from websites. instead of producing the website with the figures, you said the website is down because they are on holidays.  You are a lair.



Are you ok in the head? Did you pass WAEC or SAT gan sef?

ndu_chucks:


You may be uninformed. Assuming that one of the most expensive bridges, a cantilever bridge, is constucted throughout the length of this road, building material costs will be no more than $1million per mile, so what is unique about Lagos to add additional $5/6million per mile to construction costs? I'm assuming that the $5m is not the normal 9ija consideration which routinely travels under the table. Mind you, we are not talking about building a cantilever bridge here.

If I may, are u can engineer? How did u sum up that it would cost no more than $1 million? I guess its unique due to geographical location. I'm not an engineer, but cost of acquisition of land, as well as other fixed assets/resources alone would be significant as compared to some other states.

@babapupa, what is your objection to temporarily putting toll collection on hold and revisit the underlying contract, in an attempt to ensure that Lagosian's receive the best deal possible.  If indeed Fashola's actions are illegal, what is wrong with going to court for remedies?  This is a simple non academic question.

I'd be surprised if your position differs from mine on these simple questions.  By the way, cut it out, and stop dodging the issues with not-so-clever fontenizations.

manny4life:

If I may, are u can engineer? How did u sum up that it would cost no more than $1 million? I guess its unique due to geographical location. I'm not an engineer, but cost of acquisition of land, as well as other fixed assets/resources alone would be significant as compared to some other states.

I agree, but to the tune of $5-6million or (almost N1billion) per mile?? That seems quite excessive. The government will not buy any land at retail cost and there are waivers on the imported construction materials - no customs fees, etc