Maximus69:


Whatever makes people converge in a place or forum to share a common thought is tantamount to worship (religion)!

Farki:


That would make any mass gathering a religion. This means the Premier League is the biggest religion of all time.

Religion requires a belief in the supernatural and a personal diety.

Maximus69:


You're seeing through your anus my guy!

You presented an excellent example of religion and you can't even see it!

If soccer is not a religion why do fans who spent their money watching the players fight and in most cases kill one another?

WHY?
WHY?
WHY?

paxonel:
read 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 for the full explanation of what Paul was trying to say in this scripture. He was simply explaining resurrection of the dead, not rapture.

Paul used a lot of figurative languages here but the interpretation of these figurative languages point to resurrection of the dead, not rapture.

You see, that's why i said in the first place that there are scriptures in the old testament that seems to indicate that the earth is flat.
That is how 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 seems to indicate that it is explaining rapture.
For many years i used to think it was explaining rapture until i read through 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 and saw that it was actually explaining resurrection of the dead, not rapture.

Infact, 1 Corinthians 15:55 concluded by saying O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

To let you know that the key aspect here is resurrection of the dead.

So, the question is where is the rapture thing coming from?
Obviously, from misconception of the scripture perhaps by the ancient catholic church who propagated the rapture doctrine that we keep believing till today.
anyhow you want to see it.
If you like see it that they were controlled by spirit to deny Christ, the truth is they are mere humans like me and you denying that Jesus is the Christ and that's nothing.

And for us who believed that Jesus is the Christ, we were made to believe so by a spirit in us known as the holy spirit.

Maximus69:


Whatever makes people converge in a place or forum to share a common thought is tantamount to worship (religion)!

paxonel:
Exactly!
The adage is very true.

Have you ever been in a situation where you read a course in preparation for an exam, you read very well and you are convinced that you read the material to the last, but at end you still fail the course?

It happened to me in one of those courses like that.
you will think it is the lecturer that deliberately failed you

But you see, I remember when i was reading the same course again as carry over, i soon discover that i was misinterpreting a lot of things thinking i was reading

spartan117:

No doubt 1 cor 15 talks about being raised up and given a spiritual body, but it's out of context as far as this discussion is concerned. Don't you think?

Let me be more concise. Examine the following scripture:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This scripture clearly states that that the living will be caught up in the clouds with Christ. ( not only the dead but the living as well ).

This scripture clearly speaks concerning the rapture. Am I wrong?

Psalms5522:

You are right. This kind of thing happens when you read the Bible through a lens of already formed opinion. The truth is that if I already have an opinion that killing other humans is very good and I read the Bible through that lens, am going to start seeing tons of scriptures that seems to support my wrong idea. Like someone told me long ago that people see and hear what they want see and hear not actually what they are seeing or hearing.
The only way one can understand the Bible is when you approach it with the attitude of a child. A child is always ready to learn new things, they don't have already established opinions so it becomes easy for them to learn. When Jesus was on earth he on two occasions helped his followers to understand the right attitude they should have towards learning God's Word. He said in Mark 10:15 that to enter enter the kingdom of God people have to accept it like the way children would (without preconceived opinions). Also on another occasion Jesus praised God for hiding the gems in the Bible from wise and intellectual ones and then exposing it to babes( Matt 11:15). This goes to show the attitude we should have when approaching a study of the Bible.

Another thing I have find helpful is, avoiding the urge to explain what the Bible is saying instead allow the Bible to explain itself. When reading don't take a verse and give it an interpretation instead allow the surrounding context to guide you. If the context is not clear check for other verses that throw light on the topic. The best foundation to build your study of the Bible is on the fact that the Bible never contradicts itself, so any seeming contradiction is the result of not having a proper understanding of maybe the context or something else.
Am a serious student of the Bible and the above points have been of help to me and still is.

Maximus69:


You're seeing through your anus my guy!

You presented an excellent example of religion and you can't even see it!

If soccer is not a religion why do fans who spent their money watching the players fight and in most cases kill one another?

WHY?
WHY?
WHY?

spartan117:

No doubt 1 cor 15 talks about being raised up and given a spiritual body, but it's out of context as far as this discussion is concerned. Don't you think?

Let me be more concise. Examine the following scripture:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This scripture clearly states that that the living will be caught up in the clouds with Christ. ( not only the dead but the living as well ).

This scripture clearly speaks concerning the rapture. Am I wrong?

Farki:


Which football matches do you watch where people kill each other?

You seem to be confusing fanaticism with religion when used in the greater context of this discussion.

kingxsamz:


See how you're embarrassing yourself...

kingxsamz:


Biko, how did you come up with this conclusion?
Or did you just think of it while making your writeup?
I don't think your statement is correct.
If one becomes an atheist, it's simply because he /she has come to an agreement or conclusion that there is no God.
Saying most Atheists became Atheists just to look cool or sound intelligent is totally off point and in no way related to Atheism.

Maximus69:


Hmmmmmmmm, why do you people love lying to your own souls?

Please how many times have you seen religinists fight themselves in your streets?

Is it not when things go sour that they began killing one another?

Are you saying football fans don't attack one another?

Well even here in Nigeria, i've encountered Chelsea and Manchester United fans fought and lives were lost, i managed to escape that very day because they were stopping all vehicles asking "to which club do you belong?"

Talkless there in Europe where the religion is taken seriously than ever!

Farki:


I haven't seen football fans fighting themselves in the streets either. Maybe you just live around violent and jobless people.

If you want to see people fighting over religion go to Jos or Kano and insult Muhammad.

Regardless of your ridiculous example it does not change the definition of religion.

Maximus69:


Religion i have proved!

If you want to see people fighting over religion go to England and spew gibberish against Chelsea in the presence of the fans!

spartan117:

No doubt 1 cor 15 talks about being raised up and given a spiritual body, but it's out of context as far as this discussion is concerned. Don't you think?

Let me be more concise. Examine the following scripture:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This scripture clearly states that that the living will be caught up in the clouds with Christ. ( not only the dead but the living as well ).

This scripture clearly speaks concerning the rapture. Am I wrong?

Farki:


Does that make either of them deities and supernatural phenomenon worshipped by people?

Maximus69:


You aren't getting it, are you?

Where is your brain, Mr Atheist?

It's simply a concept as in Theory, but it has led to trouble in the midst of people.

I defined religion, you want to refute my definition but in the end, you now agreed that COMMON football could lead to killings whereas you and your cohorts were arguing that it's only religion that could turn people's minds into hating their fellow man.

Now do you agree that COMMON soccer is also a religion if it could gather people, infuse the love of something lifeless as football in their hearts and lead them into killing one another?

Maximus69:


You're seeing through your anus my guy!

You presented an excellent example of religion and you can't even see it!

If soccer is not a religion why do fans who spent their money watching the players fight and in most cases kill one another?

WHY?
WHY?
WHY?

Farki:


Your definition of religion is frankly stupid and derailing this thread. People can kill each other for any multitude of reasons that does not make them religions.

Buliwyf:


I know that as a Christian your first instinct is to lie like a thief. Please show us how many instances of killing among football fans you know about and how you came to conclude it's what happens in most cases.

Must you guys lie? Also how does fanaticism become equal to religion? Do they worship the god of soccer? Or is being able to commit violence in the name of a thing the sole criteria for that thing to become a religion? Also by this your conclusion those guys currently burning down 5G masts right now have started a religion. Lol

Maximus69:


Any lifeless image that is able to bring intelligent creatures together to have a common thought is tantamount to religion take it or leave it!

Please can you quote any human ideology apart from God's word, that says lying is evil?

I'm confused! I thought ATHEISM says there is no God, so where is it written that people shouldn't tell lies?

Maximus69:


As in seriously?

Well God's word mentioned those things that could serve as Gods in our midst. Colossians 3:5

SEX! It has led many to form groups like bestialists, homosexuals, lesbians and governmental authorities in many lands are now giving them the opportunity to air their own views in the society!
Has it not become another religion on it's own just like ATHEISM?

Keep deceiving yourselves!

Buliwyf:


You have just made up your own definition of what a religion is. Unfortunately you goofed. You can't just redefine something to help your argument. Lol

So you are now trying to justify your lie right? Telling petty lies like a rat. And then trying to distract by asking for anything irrelevant to the discussion. You are still yet to tell us how you came to the conclusion that killing happens in football disputes most times. Anything aside that is admitting you are just a shameless liar who likes to make stuff up to help his argument.

Farki:


You are quite clearly an unreasonable and unintelligent fellow who does not understand what religion means. Oh well....

Psalms5522:


Hello bro I have been following this conversation please allow me to drop a point. To understand what that book of thesalonians is saying let us please look at the surrounding context.
Reading from verse 13 it is clear that the church in thesalonica faced some tragedy they lost one or more members in death and Paul is trying to encourage them.
In verse 14 he assured them that there is a hope of resurrection so the brethren should comfort themselves with that hope. Now in verse 15&16 Paul began to explain the order in which the resurrection will take place, he said that we the living will not preced those who were already dead instead during presence those who were already dead in christ will rise first (compare 1cor 15:23) those alive.
Now understanding the context let us look at verse 17. Those who are alive during the presence of the Lord shall be CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord. We all agree they meet up with christ, but one can erroneously conclude that caught up there means to just disappear bodily to heaven . But checking the dictionary you find out it carries the context to meet up with someone. 1cor 15:51$52 talks about being changed in an instant giving up the flesh and being given a spiritual body because as verse 50 of the book of corinthians says flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven. The book of 1 thesalonians 4 :17 is talking about how during christ presence the Saint who are alive will give up their fleshly bodies and be raised with a spiritual body unlike those who died earlier who have to wait in the grave until christ coming theirs will be immediately after death the are gone.

paxonel:
you know what you are doing when you read this scripture the way you are reading it directly?
It's like you are looking through a mirror and instead of seeing your image you are see another thing enterly and you have to decode what that thing is, it's so funny
Right now, i just laughing when i see you go throw this, trust me, i was there before and i was confused too it's just normal for this kind of scripture to confuse people.

I told you, figurative languages are just representations like a parable.
Let me show you an example of a figurative language and it interpretation

Matthew 13:37
He that soweth the good seed represent the Son of man;
The field represent world
the good seed represent the children of the kingdom;
the tares represent the children of the wicked one;


Let's go back to that scripture again

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The clouds represent heaven
The air also represent heaven
(clouds or air, the same thing)

And what is heaven representing on this earth?
It represent resurrection of the dead through Christ. Luke 13:24-25
In luke 13:24, someone asked Jesus are there few that will enter heaven?
In response to the question, Luke 13:25 quoted Jesus mentioning something like ......when once the master is risen
So, the resurrection of Jesus Christ represent heaven
Heaven also represent Christianity (because only Christians are the once to resurrect when they die, just like Jesus resurrected).

"Caught up together" in that scripture what does it represent ?
Caught up together represent interaction or to meet with people who has died and are resurrected

What this whole thing suggest is that, when the dead are resurrected, we who are alive, who didn't die will be caught up together(meaning :we will meet with them) but this time, they will come with a new body (as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 I pointed to you earlier.

1 Corinthians 15:38 specifically stated : But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Now, think of this, why did the disciple find it difficult initially to recognize Jesus the first time they saw him after he resurrected? Luke 24:16
Because, he was given a new body.

So, you see, there is nothing rapture about that scripture 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Rather, it is explaining resurrection of the dead through Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

This tells us that anytime we die we always come back to life as new born babies

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

such that people who are alive will never know that, that new born baby was the same person who died, only that the old body has changed.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

In summary, the rapture doctrine did not give us the full story or something reasonable, leaving millions of Christians today in perplex

spartan117:

I have done my part. I have nothing else to say.