The Grail Message. I'm yet to voice out an opinion on your 'gospel'.

I don't really think the example was outright stealing but I think its still a sin in the eyes of God, since it will involve some form of deceit. Plus since the money doesnt personally belong to you, you have no right to give it to anybody. Robin Hood stealing or not its wrong. The bible does say 'give to ceaser what belongs to ceaser'- so long as its not yours dont play with it!

na wa o. una dey deep. i dey go chop amala, once i return i go give una my 10 naira worth. peace

Seriously? Most who steal don't justify it, they just rationalize it in a way that appeals to them and whatever's left of their conscience. That said, two major issues make it wrong to steal.

First, its always by definition harmful to someone else.e.g stealing public funds. Some justify it as nobody's money, but it actually belongs to everybody and that makes it worse.

Secondly, its also harmful to the person doing the stealing! More often than not, thieves once they start down that path, find themselves unable to go back. To Illustrate it graphically, if a man steals N1b today, it will enable him live above his means. But once its finished, he'll have to face the disgrace of going back to where he started from (minus time wasted) or stealing again to MAINTAIN THAT LIFESTYLE. He is in a quandry.

Many other things will follow the act of stealing. How do you explain the sudden wealth? The thief is ALWAYS AFRAID OF DISCOVERY. He has to lie to maintain it sometimes even kill. How can anyone ever justify that?

Deep Sight:

This post is actually an argumentation in favour of what I am saying.

No! Not exactly! Read my words carefully. In no way does my premise favour lying!

Deep Sight:

You cannot suggest that that was the only instance in all of recorded history where the violent action taken was in line with the Divine will and helped to protect divinely willed sequences.

In the case of Abd-ru-shin it was not murder; it was in accord with the will of God. This is my perception though. When God uses the elementals(animistic/elemental beings) to dispose a man of his physical body, would you call that murder? Murder implies two things (1) It was carried out by man(human spirit) (2) Against the will of God or not by God's instruction. I have already said that I don't believe that God uses a human being(human spirit) to dispose another human being of his physical body. Whenever a man kills another, except in self defence, it is murder and hence wrong.

Killing in self defence is like lying with good intention; the volition of the spirit is to save ones life, but in the physical implementation of this volition, another life was taken. The physical reciprocal action will be mitigated by the rays emanating from the volition. Depending on how strong the volition is, the consequence of the physical action can be completely disintegrated; It could be redeemed symbolically, even the expression of sadness for the person killed may be enough to serve as the redemption.

Murder is never justified. But God has the right to take away life; and whenever it is done by God, it is always out of love and justice. It is never justified for Man(humans spirits) to take the life of another in the belief that he/her is doing the will of God. Read my words carefully, in the case that you mentioned, there is a difference.

But man has the right to defend himself, his country or that which is most sacred in him; in this defence he must make sure that there is no alternative. He must first offer the offender an opportunity to resolve the issue without bloodshed and without the will of God being compromised; exactly like Abd-ru-shin did. But if the offender refuses, then one can only fight like with the like. i.e you can oly defend a physical attack by a physical means.

If a foreign country declares war against your country, you should not sit there and let them kill everybody in your country. You should seek for peacefull resolution of the conflict. Most importantly you should turn to God in prayer. But then if the enemy persists you should arm yourself and fight in defence. A servant of God does not have to be weakling; indeed it is a sin to be a weakling. Sometimes fighting a war in self defence cannot be avoided, but lying can always be avoided. It is not wrong to fight a war in defence.

If you load a gun and come to my house with the intention of killing my family; the situation of me lying to defend them would not arise because I will blow off your head before you knock on my door. But I have to make sure that there is no other way for me to prevent you without killing you.

I am a servant of God but I am not a weakling. Make no mistake about it. Actually resorting to lying is cowardice; for if you put a gun on my head and ask to disclose to you where my family is hiding, I will simply tell you to shoot. Or if you put a gun in my head ask me to throw away my faith in God or you would shoot; I will simply tell you to go ahead and shoot.

Deep Sight:

If you suggest such, that would be nothing but special pleading.

I never suggested that. Even Jesus had to forcefully drive the thieves and money changers out of His fathers house, out of the temple of worship. There is a thing called righteous aggression! There is a reason why beings like Mars exist in creation. But the human spirit does not swing in the ray of aggression because the human spirit is spiritual. Aggression is quality that lies in the animistic, or a quality that flows through the animistic. Some times(in very special cases) in answer to a prayer, the rays of aggression are anchored in a human being, so that such a human being can become brave and fight a righteous war; such a person, immediately after death, the ray of aggression detaches from his spirit and returns to the animistic or substantiate being from whence it issued. This has happened many times in history. Or sometimes a being(not human) is sent from above, to incarnate on earth as a human being, to carry out such aggressive tasks. The people around such a person offten sense that there was something extraordinary about him; this sensing gives rise to myths that the person was a lion or born of a lion. The ancient Romans used to circulate such myths about some of their generals.

Even angels battle against Lucifer and his volitions. Even Parsifal had to battle with Lucifer. And this is not just metaphorically speaking but real battle. Battling or fighting in self defence is not wrong. Provided that there is no other way to save that which is being attacked, and that in the battle or war you do only that which is necessary to prevent the attacker. And such a war cannot be for selfish purposes but defence of the will of God.

The human spirit by its nature, never swings in the ray of aggression; the spirit is inherently peaceful in its nature. Whenever a humanbeing is aggressive or angry, it is often out of hatred, fear, or jealousy. Except in very special cases like I mentioned above, it is hardly ever the righteous agreesion which comes from above; this aggression hardly connects with spirits. But Jesus carrying Divine unsubstantiate carry all radiations in their pure form within Him; out of a Divine being, righteous agreesion can flow.

This does not mean that servants of God should sit around and let an enemy army kill them off. When necessary the human spirit is connected with the ray of righteous aggression to defend itsself, its country or its faith, even physically. In such wars, killing children and women as well as killing a man who has surrendered is out of the question. Even the enemy wounded during such wars should be treated with love and given medical care. This automatically excludes modern warfare where people stay in their houses and throw bombs to others killing even women and children.

So what was flowing through Jesus when He was forcefully driving the thieves out of His fathers house was righteous aggression. It was not the anger that we are familiar with, the anger that humans exhibit out of frustration. It was pure aggression and completely justified. The same is applicable with the example you gave from the book "From Past millennia."

Thanks

I this argument is between[b] LOGIC AND RELIGION[/b].

Some actions might right LOGICALLY but wrong RELIGIOUSLY.

The fact is that our LAW Courts judge people according to LOGICAL REASONING and not RELIGION.

So a lawyer can prove a wrong action right.

But remember BAD IS BAD and GOOD is GOOD.

Above all THE STATE OF YOUR CONSCIENCE MATTERS.

Note please, I dont condone any of them. It was just an inquiry partiuclarly in light of lying to protect your family members during an invasion of armed robbery.

In the eyes of the culprit, yes. . . . . .

@ Justcool, thanks for your excellent surmise, but I am surprised that you do not see that everything you have written still actually makes a case in favour of the fact that such things may be justified depending on the circumstance.

Ndipe:

Note please, I dont condone any of them. It was just an inquiry partiuclarly in light of lying to protect your family members during an invasion of armed robbery.

Both cannot be justified in the eyes of God.  Lying to protect your family members during an invasion of armed robbery is still wrong, what makes you think the armed robbers would believe you anyway?  As Christians we should walk by faith and not by sight, if we believe God and say the truth even when it hurts God can still perform His miracle to deliver us.  Remember that All liars (if they don't repent) will have their part in the lake of fire.

What is a lie? I believe any human expression can only involve sin if it makes or allows evil to multiply. Whatever counters evil without generating a new form of evil should be justified. Stealing and murder are never justified according to my understanding - even if used in combating evil, it still involves evil. For self-defense, one is justified socially/morally but the spiritual repercussions will linger.

Nope. Except for a good reason. I can steal political money from those corrupt leaders cos it belong to us

OLAADEGBU:

Both cannot be justified in the eyes of God.  Lying to protect your family members during an invasion of armed robbery is still wrong, what makes you think the armed robbers would believe you anyway?  As Christians we should walk by faith and not by sight, if we believe God and say the truth even when it hurts God can still perform His miracle to deliver us.  Remember that All liars (if they don't repent) will have their part in the lake of fire.

I agree with you, for Jesus Christ says that we should not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul, rather we should fear the one who can destroy both.

15 min video of Buhari interview

http://www.saharareporters.com/video/general-muhammed-buhari-speaks?page=4

o

No, the end doesn't justify the means.

@ M_Nwankwo -

Doing some light research threw up this quote from you on March 4 2009-

It is the spiritual voilition of humans that is evil or good. Thus the spiritual voiltion is the core while motives, thoughts, imagination, words, actions are external shells covering the core. To judge correctly wheather something is good or evil, one has to be able to sense the core (spiritual decision), the motive, the imagination, the thoughts, the words and the actions. Unfortunately, most of us are only able to make judjement based on the the shells particularly words and actions and then we go astray.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-241816.0.html#msg3543176

I am of the view that these words (especially the bolded in red) are wholly in tandem with my view in this matter, and contradict that which you have set out here, and also also contradict most of your argument in the other thread.

I am still very surprised indeed and taken aback by your view in this matter, which seems to me overly mechanical.

I also note the response by Mad Max to you in that thread -

You say good and evil isn't sometimes relative, and yet the cold hard reality of our lives is that it is. There are things we would all agree is evil,no matter the spin. A man beating a child to death for no other reason than he could, say. Others things appear to be a matter of perception. All killing except in self defence is murder, you say? What if the above mentioned man were caught and, as punishment for his crime, the judge issues him a death penalty.The guy's killed. He didn't attack the judge and the judge isn't defending himself, and yet he's ordered a man killed, by the power vested in him by the state. Since it isn't self-defence, by your defintion the judge's commited murder,right? What about the men carry out the judges's orders and put the man to death? And I see in the Old Testament God would tell Israelites to kill. And not in self-defence either. By your definition that makes the Old Testament God what?

Which is very well considered.

Deep Sight:

@ M_Nwankwo -

Doing some light research threw up this quote from you on March 4 2009-


https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-241816.0.html#msg3543176

I am of the view that these words (especially the bolded in red) are wholly in tandem with my view in this matter, and contradict that which you have set out here, and also also contradict most of your argument in the other thread.

I am still very surprised indeed and taken aback by your view in this matter, which seems to me overly mechanical.

I also note the response by Mad Max to you in that thread -


Which is very well considered.

Hi DeepSight. My statement of 2009 which you sited is in accord with my perceptions on this thread. If after reading the entire quote and not just the bolded  part, you may find that that my statement of 2009 is in tandem with what I am saying on this thread. In  2009 thread, I said that the spiritual volition is the core and actions etc are external shells. In this thread, I said that spiritual volition is decisive while action is a shadow. There is no reason for you to be taken aback by my perception on this thread. I am just a human spirit offering my perception on what I sense to be the Truth and nothing more. Thus people should only accept my perception if it is in harmony with what they sense deep within their soul.

A further example may be helpful. A very rich man has a voilition to be flattered and admired by his fellow men. In this connection he donates millions of naira to fight infectious diseases and to help the less privilage so that he will be admired and praised by the people. The urge to help didnot spring out of genuine love for the handicapped or for the millions of people plagued with infectious diseases. Yet, his money have provided vaccines, drugs and health to thousands of beneficiaries. His motive is to be admired and praised by people and that is in disobedience to the laws of God. In this case, this intoxicating desire to be admired is the core that is decisive. But the drugs and vaccines that has helped many which can be likened to action are good and will also set up good reciprocal action for the man according to the laws of God. The good reciprocal actions will surely return to this rich man but his spiritual environment which is made  up of the intoxicating desire to be praised and admired will disintegrate the returning good. Thus the spirit of the man will not receive genuine blessings. In the end he will only receive praises and admiration from people.


In this example, the spiritual volition is the desire to be praised by people and it is decisive. The restoration to health to thousands of people due to the vaccines procured by his money is the shadow. Thus here we have a spiritual volition that is in-contradiction to the laws of God but an action that is in accordance to the laws of God. The laws of God see the entirety of this mans activities, that is, his motives and actions but most humans can only recognize the actions and then make incorrect judgment. As they say "all that glitters is not gold" and a gold that is covered in mud cannot glitter until the mud is removed. My point is that if you are looking for gold, you most remove the mud that covered the gold and to ignore it just because the mud is not the gold itself will make finding the gold impossible. The bottom line is that our words, actions and motives must be in-tune with the volition of the spirit. We are spirits and God has given us the ability to compel the cloaks of the spirits to act in sync with the volition of the spirit. As always, stay blessed.

Thank you sir.

I have long wanted your input on this thread -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-443101.0.html

I will be most obliged if you can read the thread (it is only 1 page) and make your comments thereon.

I know the issue discussed there is only of academic interest and does not go to the root of any concern on true salvation, however, I think its an interesting discourse even if only academic. Much obliged.

Deep Sight:

Thank you sir.

I have long wanted your input on this thread -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-443101.0.html

I will be most obliged if you can read the thread (it is only 1 page) and make your comments thereon.

I know the issue discussed there is only of academic interest and does not go to the root of any concern on true salvation, however, I think its an interesting discourse even if only academic. Much obliged.

Thanks. I will read the thread and comment if I have anything to say. Stay blessed.

Yeah sometimes not that i am a liar .

No. Nothing can ever justify stealing/lying. We are all living witnesses to those who looted our collective wealth under all manners of guises. We suffer, they enjoy.

No

Unjustifiable deeds they are.