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For Those Saying There Is No God. - Religion (7) - Nairaland

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Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by LordReed(m): 1:43pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

You mean 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chances of life?
Too small to be possible.

No I mean there are 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the universe, each representing a chance for life to occur.



Even if you have a planet that exist with adequate Water, Oxygen, Carbon and Temperature, it's still a tall order to have life to form.

You literally have no way of knowing that. Neither do you know if life can form from some other types of elements. All you know is limited to the formation of carbon based life on 1 planet.


What law of probability!?
I mean "Simple rules of mathematical probabilities!"

Which are?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by arimahoseloka(m): 1:45pm On May 23
Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding his existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

1. The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

Photo showing the earth's relative size and perfect distance to the sun as evidence of God's existence in creating the universe.The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has wide margin between its boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Photo from underwater in a lake or ocean to illustrate one more property of water that God designed, that water freezes from the top down, allowing fish to live in the winter.Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Photo of rain falling on plants, showing the process of evaporation and water distribution on our planet critical to life, another evidence that God exists.Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

Photo of a woman thinking, to illustrate the human brain's ability to process a million messages a second, an amazing ability that answers the question, 'Is There a God?'The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

2. The universe had a start - what caused it?
Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Photo shows an explosion of light to illustrate the start of the universe, compatible to when God said, 'Let there be light.'Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

3. The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

All of the sciences--molecular biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, etc.--hinge on the consistent laws of nature.

Dr. Emily Baldwin commented, "One of the most important numbers in physics, the proton-electron mass ratio, is the same in a galaxy six billion light years away as it is here on Earth…"11

Photo of mathematical equations on a blackboard to illustrate the mathematical nature of our laws of nature, another evidence that God exists.How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."12

Physicist Paul C. Davies, comments, "…to be a scientist, you had to have faith that the universe is governed by dependable, immutable, absolute, universal, mathematical laws…”13

All of our ability to discover, solve problems, create is made possible by the orderly laws of the universe that never change and can be measured with precision.

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."14

4. The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.
Photo shows a wall of computer binary code of zeros and ones to illustrate that the 3 billion DNA molecules that God created in every human cell is much like a computer program.All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.15

Proof God exists - Photo of closeup DNA letters of CGTA with a magnifying loop, to illustrate the ordered 3 billion chemicals of DNA within each human cell.Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

5. We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

Photo of sunset on an ocean short to illustrate the warmth of God's love toward us.I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

6. Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

Photo of a man reading the Bible to illustrate that God has revealed his existence to us in the Bible.He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."16 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."17

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.18

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although he views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and he came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."19 This is God, in action.

Photo of a woman, drinking a cup of coffee and reading the Bible, in order to know the God who exists on a personal level.Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."20

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.

If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.
This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."21 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."

God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."22

Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way.
https://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

1 Like

Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 1:46pm On May 23
kingxsamz:


No.
Wise answer.

But the implication is also deep.

1. It means that their must exist an Uncaused First-Cause of Everything there is.

This is what by nomenclature we call God, Chukwu, Eledumare, Ubangigi etc.

We may argue about His name, His nature, His personality BUT it doesn't change the fact that He is the foundation of every other things.

2. It mean that the question "who created God?" Is Logically and scientifically meaningless.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by kingxsamz(m): 1:48pm On May 23
shadeyinka:
.

2. It mean that the question "who created God?" Is Logically and scientifically meaningless.

grin okay.
Is it logically possible for something to exist on its own without a cause?
It's a YES or NO answer.
I'm waiting.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by frank317: 1:53pm On May 23
Hahjascho:
That's the deal, you keep looking for the truths where they don't exist..... which I bet you won't find to satisfy your self curiosity in order to justify your convictions.

The truths is found in God which can never be revealed or become meaniful except you submit or believe in Him..

IT'S LIKE ME TELLING YOU THAT HONEY IS SWEET, BUT YOU KEEP DEMANDING BASIC PROOFS TO SHOW IF IT'S SWEET OR NOT.

HOWEVER, I BELIEVE IT'S SWEET BECAUSE HAVE TASTED IT TO BE SWEET... using my mouth...but as long as I refuse to do practical, mouth testing, it remains a gainsaying.

So u want him to submit to something that has not be proven? I think only a foolish person would do that.

U honey example is wrong because the argument is not about if Honey is sweet... It is if honey is real. Well, honey honey has been established to be real, so we can go ahead and taste it to know if it's sweet. U cant taste God to know if he is sweet because there is know where we see any God that can be tasted.

1 Like

Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by kingxsamz(m): 2:00pm On May 23
Hahjascho:


IT'S LIKE ME TELLING YOU THAT HONEY IS SWEET, BUT YOU KEEP DEMANDING BASIC PROOFS TO SHOW IF IT'S SWEET OR NOT.

HOWEVER, I BELIEVE IT'S SWEET BECAUSE HAVE TASTED IT TO BE SWEET...

Poor analogy.
At least, if you tell someone that honey feels good or taste good, he or she can easily attest to that because honey is real and it exists.
Unlike God.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 2:02pm On May 23
LordReed:


No I mean there are 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the universe, each representing a chance for life to occur.
No sir!
How many of the available planets have the right elements and compounds, right temperature, right size, right cycle of day and night, right gravitational force, etc that can be used as one of the statistics out of the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the universe?

Sorry, your estimation is way too high.

LordReed:

You literally have no way of knowing that. Neither do you know if life can form from some other types of elements. All you know is limited to the formation of carbon based life on 1 planet.

Which are?
Experiments have been done to simulate creation environment in the laboratory. Every known element and compounds that was thought to be necessary for life was sealed in a bottle and electrical discharge were fired into them for extended periods of time while analysis was done on the chemicals produced from the induced chemical reactions such as several organic compounds.

Not a single DNA strand was observed. You may read about the Miller Urey Experiments.

Are you seriously willing to concede that non carbon based life may exist?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 2:14pm On May 23
kingxsamz:


grin okay.
Glad that this makes sense to you

kingxsamz:

Is it logically possible for something to exist on its own without a cause?
It's a YES or NO answer.
I'm waiting.
No!
SOMETHING cannot exist by itself without a cause.

Every thing that can be called something must have these characteristics
1. It must have a physical dimensions (size) however small
2. It must have a mass (quantity of matter) however small

NO is your final answer!

BTW check my previous post highlighting this

shadeyinka:

I think you jumped too far into the evolutionary chain. Life started scientifically from NOTHING (not even an electron or atom existed before the sudden expansion of the universe!

If nothing existed, isn't it a tall order for something to come out of nothing?

BTW, I don't think anyone has ever described God as a THING/SOMETHING. He is an intelligence quite alright, a conscious being not made up of matter. His phase of existence is different from the physical one we know of, hence he can't be described as "complex" with respect to the physical world for there is no basis for comparison.

Of course, it isn't difficult to see that a complex intelligence can manufacture imitations of complex artifacts.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by kingxsamz(m): 2:31pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

Glad that this makes sense to you


No!
SOMETHING cannot exist by itself without a cause.



NO is your final answer!




Good.
Now this contradicts your earlier statement that there is a God who's uncaused.

Anyway you look at it, the whole thing doesn't favor you, neither does it favor me.
The real truth is that nobody knows.
At least, science admits to that.

Saying there's a first cause, and that first cause is what you call God is just dumb.
If you believe there's a first cause that is uncaused, then it's easier for one to agree that the big bang is the first cause, and it just happened from nothing. And if you don't agree with that theory, you can't expect one to believe that this same God came from nothing also. undecided
Anyhow you look at it, it's a loss on both sides.
It's better if one admits he doesn't know, than to make ridiculous assumptions.

1 Like

Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by kingxsamz(m): 2:32pm On May 23
shadeyinka:




No!
SOMETHING cannot exist by itself without a cause.



NO is your final answer!



One more question.

You're a Christian right?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by elvisgaga: 3:02pm On May 23
gensteejay:

I already told you on the other threads.

1. The PDF version of the book of the history of universe OtemAtum is compiling. IMO, it is the most complete historical text available on homo sapiens, homo erectus, and other extinct human or human-like races.
2. "A Brief History of Humankind: Sapiens" by Yuvval Noah Harari available online

You could start with those 2. I feel everyone should read these books to stay informed about happenings on this planet. If one doesn't know history, one can easily be fooled.
send me that otems book plz .... elvisjay85@gmail.com

1 Like

Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by masterP042(m): 3:08pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

No sir!
God is a spirit. A spirit is a being with a form not defined by our space, matter and time coordinate.
Spirits are imaginary beings. Till you can prove it's existence we don't need to keep arguing and going round circles.

Before you scream foul, there are things similar to that in existence. They exist, but are not defined by space, matter and time.
what and what are similar to it's existence, if not for similar imaginary beings like demons, dragons, unicorns, angels etc?

Is God not in simple terms an extraterrestrial being?


You've not answered this question:
Is infinite regression of Cause an effect logically and scientifically possible with respect to creation?


I don't understand your question, u can simply rephrase in simpler grammar, pidgin or Igbo language. As I no go school.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by LordReed(m): 3:09pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

No sir!
How many of the available planets have the right elements and compounds, right temperature, right size, right cycle of day and night, right gravitational force, etc that can be used as one of the statistics out of the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the universe?

Sorry, your estimation is way too high.


Experiments have been done to simulate creation environment in the laboratory. Every known element and compounds that was thought to be necessary for life was sealed in a bottle and electrical discharge were fired into them for extended periods of time while analysis was done on the chemicals produced from the induced chemical reactions such as several organic compounds.

Not a single DNA strand was observed. You may read about the Miller Urey Experiments.

Are you seriously willing to concede that non carbon based life may exist?

As I said you literally do not know if life can arise from any other combination of elements or environments because the only life you have observed is here and is carbon based.

Miller Urey Experiments were never designed to generate DNA, you just created a strawman.

Do you know if non-carbon based life is impossible? How do you know that?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by butterfly777(m): 3:25pm On May 23
kingxsamz:


grin okay.
Is it logically possible for something to exist on its own without a cause?
It's a YES or NO answer.
I'm waiting.

That is why He is extraterrestrial. He is super- human. He is above our human realm of logic and dimensions.

He is beyond our tools of measure and reasoning: length, breadth, height, process, and reasoning.

God is above us.

When you know how to rationalize spirits, then maybe you are on the way to understanding God.

He is a spirit, and does not confirm to human logic.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 3:48pm On May 23
LordReed:


As I said you literally do not know if life can arise from any other combination of elements or environments because the only life you have observed is here and is carbon based.

Miller Urey Experiments were never designed to generate DNA, you just created a strawman.

Do you know if non-carbon based life is impossible? How do you know that?

And I asked you if you were willing to concede that life can exist without the Carbon?

Did I say that Miller Urey Experiments were designed to generate DNA?
I just reported that organic chemicals were formed BUT no DNA. Is the DNA not an organic chemical?

If M-U experiment had produced the simplest DNA, would that not have been an ultimate proof that life originated spontaneously because the right combinations of elements were present?

Let me break it down for you. M-U experiments showed that having another planet with the same chemical composition as the earth is no guarantee for life to spontaneously arise with time.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by gensteejay(m): 4:01pm On May 23
elvisgaga:
send me that otems book plz .... elvisjay85@gmail.com
Sent.

People can make a religion out of anything, including science. Please, note what I said earlier and approach the book as a historical text, not a religious one:

Having read the whole book and studied the Seriot language, books and philosophies (approach to life) like Otem's are what Nigeria and Africa need to grow and develop and stop being slaves to the whites and Arabs.

There are different philosophies in the world, including Muhammad's (in Islam), Jesus' (in Christianity), ATR's (in Africa), atheistic, etc.

There are some truths/benefits in all of them, but the philosophies of Abrahamic religions, overall, are domineering and evil.

The book (Otem's) contains the history of tons of philosophies in human history. One can learn some things from the good philosophies and be wary of the bad ones that seek to enslave people (such as Christianity and Islam).
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 4:02pm On May 23
masterP042:

Spirits are imaginary beings. Till you can prove it's existence we don't need to keep arguing and going round circles.

what and what are similar to it's existence, if not for similar imaginary beings like demons, dragons, unicorns, angels etc?
Example of "something" that exist, but are not defined by space, matter and time.

I am not talking about Demons or Unicorns nor Angels.

A COMPUTER PROGRAM within a Computer!

We all know that computer programs exist because we acknowledge the job of the Programmer who writes logical sequence of instructions acting on data. The computer code is not that written in black and white on paper but the one uploaded inside the computer. It doesn't have a colour, a size, a mass nor any description.

It has no form, no mass, isn't even bound by space. The computer program is not comprehensible without the PROGRAMMER!

Ask yourself if it is possible to prove the existence of a computer program within a computer without reference to the existence of a Programmer?

masterP042:

I don't understand your question, u can simply rephrase in simpler grammar, pidgin or Igbo language. As I no go school.
You asked the question(paraphrased): "who created the God that created everything?"

Now, the Being that created God by your question must have another being that created it. And that Being must have its own creator too

The question now was:
Is an infinite regression of Cause and Effect possible logically and scientifically?

Hope the question is clear now?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 4:02pm On May 23
kingxsamz:


One more question.

You're a Christian right?
You should know that I am!
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by LordReed(m): 4:06pm On May 23
shadeyinka:


And I asked you if you were willing to concede that life can exist without the Carbon?

I said there is no way to know at this time if the only way life can form is as carbon based.


Did I say that Miller Urey Experiments were designed to generate DNA?
I just reported that organic chemicals were formed BUT no DNA. Is the DNA not an organic chemical?

If M-U experiment had produced the simplest DNA, would that not have been an ultimate proof that life originated spontaneously because the right combinations of elements were present?

Let me break it down for you. M-U experiments showed that having another planet with the same chemical composition as the earth is no guarantee for life to spontaneously arise with time.

You obviously do not know what the goal of the Miller Urey experiment was or else you'd not be bringing up the fact that DNA was not formed in the results. The purpose was not to produce DNA but to produce complex chemicals in this case what resulted was amino acids which are the building blocks for DNA. Nobody said the first thing that formed was DNA so why would the experiment be looking to produce DNA?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 4:09pm On May 23
kingxsamz:


Good.
Now this contradicts your earlier statement that there is a God who's uncaused.

Anyway you look at it, the whole thing doesn't favor you, neither does it favor me.
The real truth is that nobody knows.
At least, science admits to that.

Saying there's a first cause, and that first cause is what you call God is just dumb.
If you believe there's a first cause that is uncaused, then it's easier for one to agree that the big bang is the first cause, and it just happened from nothing. And if you don't agree with that theory, you can't expect one to believe that this same God came from nothing also. undecided
Anyhow you look at it, it's a loss on both sides.
It's better if one admits he doesn't know, than to make ridiculous assumptions.
With due respect, I think you are the one missing the point. To do that, you have to delete my take that God isn't a THING!

If God is a thing, then I agree with you that there is a Big Contradiction.
If God is a thing, then He must have an Origin.
If God is a thing, He must be created.

Since an infinite regress of cause and effect is NOT possible, it only show that there must exist a foundational CAUSE of everything. And that foundational CAUSE cannot be caused because infinite regress is impossible

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Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 4:17pm On May 23
LordReed:


I said there is no way to know at this time if the only way life can form is as carbon based.



You obviously do not know what the goal of the Miller Urey experiment was or else you'd not be bringing up the fact that DNA was not formed in the results. The purpose was not to produce DNA but to produce complex chemicals in this case what resulted was amino acids which are the building blocks for DNA. Nobody said the first thing that formed was DNA so why would the experiment be looking to produce DNA?
I wonder why you have to insist that I said the purpose of M-U experiments was to generate the DNA after this post

shadeyinka:

..
Did I say that Miller Urey Experiments were designed to generate DNA?
I just reported that organic chemicals were formed BUT no DNA. Is the DNA not an organic chemical?


If M-U experiment had produced the simplest DNA, would that not have been an ultimate proof that life originated spontaneously because the right combinations of elements were present?

Let me break it down for you. M-U experiments showed that having another planet with the same chemical composition as the earth is no guarantee for life to spontaneously arise with time.
Is the alphabet set the same as an encyclopedia?
Certainly not!
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by masterP042(m): 4:25pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

Example of "something" that exist, but are not defined by space, matter and time.

I am not talking about Demons or Unicorns nor Angels.

A COMPUTER PROGRAM within a Computer!

We all know that computer programs exist because we acknowledge the job of the Programmer who writes logical sequence of instructions acting on data. The computer code is not that written in black and white on paper but the one uploaded inside the computer. It doesn't have a colour, a size, a mass nor any description.

It has no form, no mass, isn't even bound by space. The computer program is not comprehensible without the PROGRAMMER!

Ask yourself if it is possible to prove the existence of a computer program within a computer without reference to the existence of a Programmer?


You asked the question(paraphrased): "who created the God that created everything?"

Now, the Being that created God by your question must have another being that created it. And that Being must have its own creator too

The question now was:
Is an infinite regression of Cause and Effect possible logically and scientifically?

Hope the question is clear now?
I think I understand you better now.
Now for a program, we may not know the existence of the program without the programmer or the code writer. But the burden of the existence of a program is on the coder, he is the one to bring up machines and softwares that can run the program and actually prove to the other people beyond reasonable doubt about the existence of the program.

Then about your question.
The creationist(you) was the first to postulate the idea of a creator. Insinuating that there must have been a creator for a perfectly designed universe. Blaming the athiest for the idea of infinite regression of cause and effect is just being biased. Cos u were the one to first go with the logic of a creator in the first place. An assist atheist just asks for evidence. To answer your question. I don't think the concept is logical or scientifical, till there's enough evidence to convince me.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 5:01pm On May 23
masterP042:

I think I understand you better now.
Now for a program, we may not know the existence of the program without the programmer or the code writer. But the burden of the existence of a program is on the coder, he is the one to bring up machines and softwares that can run the program and actually prove to the other people beyond reasonable doubt about the existence of the program.
You have a point as no one can know the Programmer (God) beyond that which the Programmer (God) reveals about Himself.

However, everyone can know about the Programmer from the wonders of the creations around us.

Knowledge about God or Rejection of such knowledge is a personal choice we have to groom ourself in to arrive at a gnostic position

To know God is by having a relationship with Him.
This comes first from knowing about God and then desiring to know Him (having a relationship).

God had already revealed Himself, the problem is that for many, they want a God who will appear as a 100 km tall giant and with a voice so loud that it will circumnavigate the earth 7 times and... unfortunately no!

masterP042:

Then about your question.
The creationist(you) was the first to postulate the idea of a creator. Insinuating that there must have been a creator for a perfectly designed universe. Blaming the athiest for the idea of infinite regression of cause and effect is just being biased. Cos u were the one to first go with the logic of a creator in the first place. An assist atheist just asks for evidence. To answer your question. I don't think the concept is logical or scientifical, till there's enough evidence to convince me.
It's actually the other way round.

Theists initially took it for granted that everyone believed in God.

Atheists much later came up to challenge the notion of the theists.

Now, I think it is LOGICAL that the challenger is the one who need to provide any proof.

Example:
It was thought that the earth was flat at the time when Christopher Columbus lived.
Columbus who felt otherwise proved once and for all to his generation that the earth was round.
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/who-discovered-the-earth-is-round-67dfc013402a

Now about evidence!
Science is about drawing inferences from Physical Materials.
Since atheism isn't science, I may want to ask; what kind of evidence will be suitable for you as a final final proof?

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Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by LordReed(m): 5:03pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

I wonder why you have to insist that I said the purpose of M-U experiments was to generate the DNA after this post


Is the alphabet set the same as an encyclopedia?
Certainly not!

Why did you bring up DNA in the Miller Urey experiment then?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 5:11pm On May 23
LordReed:


Why did you bring up DNA in the Miller Urey experiment then?
Is it not an observable in the experiment?
Is M-U experiment not an aspect of Abiogenesis?

You are only displeased because the experiment didn't favour you arguments. What if it had, would you want me to excise it from the discussion?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by LordReed(m): 5:20pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

Is it not an observable in the experiment?
Is M-U experiment not an aspect of Abiogenesis?

You are only displeased because the experiment didn't favour you arguments. What if it had, would you want me to excise it from the discussion?

No DNA was not any part of the experiment.

LoL the experiment succeeded in what it set out to do, you are only forming this DNA strawman because you think it proves your point which of course is a fallacy.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 5:42pm On May 23
LordReed:


No DNA was not any part of the experiment.

LoL the experiment succeeded in what it set out to do, you are only forming this DNA strawman because you think it proves your point which of course is a fallacy.
Does the experiment have the probability of producing DNA?
Yes!

Was the simplest DNA produced from the experiment?
No!

So, what's the fuss. I've not said anything other than what the experiment said.

See what Wikipedia said:

The Miller–Urey experiment[1] (or Miller experiment)[2] was a chemical experiment that simulated the conditions thought at the time (1952) to be present on the early Earth and tested the chemical origin of life under those conditions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment

Is there life without DNA?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by LordReed(m): 5:51pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

Does the experiment have the probability of producing DNA?
Yes!

Was the simplest DNA produced from the experiment?
No!

So, what's the fuss. I've not said anything other than what the experiment said.

See what Wikipedia said:

The Miller–Urey experiment[1] (or Miller experiment)[2] was a chemical experiment that simulated the conditions thought at the time (1952) to be present on the early Earth and tested the chemical origin of life under those conditions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment

Is there life without DNA?

When I said you didn't understand the purpose of the experiment you said I was accusing you of saying the purpose of the experiment was to produce DNA but here you are claiming the experiment was supposed to produce DNA.

Show me in the wiki where it says the experiment was capable of producing DNA.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 5:55pm On May 23
LordReed:


When I said you didn't understand the purpose of the experiment you said I was accusing you of saying the purpose of the experiment was to produce DNA but here you are claiming the experiment was supposed to produce DNA.

Show me in the wiki where it says the experiment was capable of producing DNA.
Let me settle this with you!
An experiment studying the Chemical Origin of life is supposed to do what?

Are you saying they were not searching for the chemical origin of life?
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by LordReed(m): 6:06pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

Let me settle this with you!
An experiment studying the Chemical Origin of life is supposed to do what?

Are you saying they were not searching for the chemical origin of life?

It was to to produce complex chemicals amino acids in this case. Nobody ever said the first thing that formed was DNA so why would they do an experiment for DNA? The abiogenesis hypothesis does not say that in the early conditions on earth the first thing that formed was DNA, maybe you should read up on abiogenesis and stop making strawman arguments.
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by shadeyinka(m): 6:27pm On May 23
LordReed:


It was to to produce complex chemicals amino acids in this case. Nobody ever said the first thing that formed was DNA so why would they do an experiment for DNA? The abiogenesis hypothesis does not say that in the early conditions on earth the first thing that formed was DNA, maybe you should read up on abiogenesis and stop making strawman arguments.
You are the one being mischievously evasive.

The purpose of the M-U experiments was not to produce complex amino acids or even DNA.
The purpose is clearly stated as:

The Miller–Urey experiment(or Miller experiment)was a chemical experiment that simulated the conditions thought at the time (1952) to be present on the early Earth and tested the chemical origin of life under those conditions
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment


The results was production of about 20 different amino acids and zero DNA!
Re: For Those Saying There Is No God. by LordReed(m): 6:31pm On May 23
shadeyinka:

You are the one being mischievously evasive.

The purpose of the M-U experiments was not to produce complex amino acids or even DNA.
The purpose is clearly stated as:

The Miller–Urey experiment(or Miller experiment)was a chemical experiment that simulated the conditions thought at the time (1952) to be present on the early Earth and tested the chemical origin of life under those conditions
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment


The results was production of about 20 different amino acids and zero DNA!

It is you that is dense here. What is amino acid if not chemical? Keep acting obtuse, that's what you are good at.

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