yommyuk:

% giving is contrary to what I am talking about.

That’s what you think. But your post reflects the contrary (reason why I said you should listen to yourself), especially when you equate tithing to giving. You want me express my love in percentage terms

LoveKing:

dont deceive yourself. Levites were pure blooded isrealites from a Descent,a Lineage. Dont spew your rubbish here. theres no spiritual levites duh.

Hmmm
Prove it

@Azibaula
What is there to prove in that statement Are you a stark illiterate or you haven't read the bible to know that the levites are an ancient Israelly tribe all tracing their lineage to Levi one of the twelve sons of Jacob the progenitor of the Israelites.

So who are the present day workers in the church, the full time church staff
Are they not the levites?

I can see that CEC plc members do not read their bibles but rather raphsody of bullshit.

In Jewish tradition, a Levite (Hebrew: לֵוִי, Modern Levi Tiberian Lēwî ; "Attached" is a member of the Hebrew tribe of Levi. When Joshua led the Israelites into the land of Canaan, the Levites were the only Israelite tribe that received cities but no tribal land "because the Lord the God of Israel himself is their inheritance" (Deuteronomy 18:2).[1][2] The Tribe of Levi served particular religious duties for the Israelites and had political responsibilities as well. In return, the landed tribes were expected to give tithe to the Levites, particularly the tithe known as the Maaser Rishon or Levite Tithe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite

Levite - A descendant of the tribe of Levi.

The Levitical order consisted of all the descendants of Levi’s three sons, Gershon, Kohath, and Merari; whilst Aaron, Amram’s son (Amram, son of Kohat), and his issue constituted the priestly order.

Only MALE Levites, aged 25 to 50 were allowed to work at the Temple. At age 50 they were required to retire. (Numbers 8:23-26)

There are no documented Levites today. There is no Temple for the Levites to work at today. A church building is not a temple of God. OUR BODIES are now the Temple where the Spirit of God lives within. WE are a royal priesthood; therefore, all born-again believers are priests. The priests did NOT tithe in the Old Testament, and we do NOT tithe today.

KunleOshob:

@Azibaula
What is there to prove in that statement Are you a stark illiterate or you haven't read the bible to know that the levites are an ancient Israelly tribe all tracing their lineage to Levi one of the twelve sons of Jacob the progenitor of the Israelites.

Don't be so fast baba
It's you who should start considering English as a 4th degree
Read in the context of what mabell wrote

Come on guys, the word "Levite" is used all the time to refer to full-time church workers. Everybody knows that the word originated from Levi, the son of JACOB. It is just used as a "figure of speech." or a term used to recognise those who gift their time to church work.

Back in the days when I used to do a lot of church work, my shephed will call me "Omo Levi". What's the big deal. We even used the title to bargain when we want to buy things in the church. It is like a church lingo.

You guys need to claim down.

Same thing with tithes. If believers choose to tithe by following the Mosaic Law with a clean heart, don't u think that God will accept it. Stop being to critical guys. Ya all sound like you have major issues like Saul b4 he became Paul.

Be in Spirit

A person can choose to tithe according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to be circumcised according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to make burnt offerings according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to divorce according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to follow 'an eye for an eye' according to Mosaic law etc etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam

Just DO NOT TEACH IT as Christian doctrine! Such teaching will always be met with opposition by knowledgeable Christians.

I have NEVER heard the word Levite used for full-time church workers.  That is mis-using the word.

First of all, the Levites were NOT full-time church or Temple workers.  They worked at the Temple about TWO WEEKS PER YEAR.  So WHY would anyone call a full-time church worker a Levite?

WHY does anyone want to CONFUSE people by calling their giving, tithing?  Giving has NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe.

Seems you have a LOT OF CONFUSION in your church by using words from the Bible inappropriately.  That's not respecting the Lord.

What you are calling tithing has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe which was a PAYMENT.

Matthew 5:17-18 states Christ came to fulfill the law and not abolish it.

This is where some education in law is useful.  What does fulfill mean?  What does abolish mean?

Let me give an example.  A legal contract is enforceable under the law.  Let’s say you hire a contractor to build a swimming pool in your back yard.  Once the contractor has completed the job, and everything in that contract has been completed, the contract has been fulfilled.  The contractor’s job is to fulfill the contract, not abolish it.  He fulfills it by completing the terms, bringing it to an end.

To fulfil is to bring into reality and achieve a purpose
To abolish is to do away with or put to an end

To me this means that Christ came to bring the law into reality and not put an end to it. It is a continuous process. That is why we have the “Grace of God” by having faith in Christ.

Psalm 118:1
We give thanks to the Lord, for he is good and his mercy endureth for ever more.

Consider


Colossians 2:14 (KJV) - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Galatians 5:18 (KJV) - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 3:19 (KJV) - Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. In other words, until Jesus came and fulfilled the law.

Galatians 3:23-25 (KJV)
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:10-14 (KJV)
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

:

What is Holy Spirit revealing to you in the scriptures that you quoted below and how to you apply it to the topic of this thread hence making it relevant? Different situation brings different revelation.

What is this new covenant based upon? I will answer it for u.

What is a covenant?

A covenant is a binding agreement and relationship between 2 parties.

God is a covenant making God who forms agreements and relationships with people (Abraham, The people of Israel,  David, me and you). God’s covenant always challenges us to be obedient to him. This covenant is often broken because we are sinners and we fail to live up to our obligations. Our disobedience led to a new covenant to be established

Jer 31:33
“But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day” says the Lord. “ I will put my instructions (Laws) deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people.

The difference between the Old and New Covenant is that the Lord would write his instructions (Laws) deep with our heart. The old covenant was external and legal, were as the new covenant would be a vital person to person relationship. The new covenant would emphasize the redeeming, transforming change within an individual’s spiritual nature. -->> The Holy Spirit.

The law did not change. The law used to be on a stone, but now it dwells in our hearts ---- “The Holy Spirit” --- >>> Christ. It is the residence of the Law that changed.

The law becomes our nature. In there we move. Live and have our being.

I have NEVER heard the word Levite used for full-time church workers.

You need to go out more. . I used to be like that till I started moving around and learnt more. Go to the middle east church and you will think to are in another world" Christ can show up anywhere, anyhow as he seems fit.

That is mis-using the word.

First of all, the Levites were NOT full-time church or Temple workers. They worked at the Temple about TWO WEEKS PER YEAR. So WHY would anyone call a full-time church worker a Levite? WHY does anyone want to CONFUSE people by calling their giving, tithing? Giving has NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe.

Come on bro, You better start thinking outside the box. Broaden your horizon.

Seems you have a LOT OF CONFUSION in your church by using words from the Bible inappropriately. That's not respecting the Lord.

I used to think like that b4 untill I found out that the Lord walks in mysterious ways. CEC members may thot like that term "mysterious" lol
Brethens of this age puzzle me

Just DO NOT TEACH IT as Christian doctrine! Such teaching will always be met with opposition by knowledgeable Christians.

Why not? Tell me what you have against believers tithing in the church and why? Based your points on the tithing used to promote the gospel.

I know all the arguments that are used to support "tithing" and have well refuted them over the years. If you do not know the arguments against the teaching of tithing as a Christian obligation, then your research is incomplete. You can start the furthering of your research by doing a search of the threads on tithing on this forum, you will see the arguments as have been well laid out by me and others for several years. I am not inclined to go over them again.

By the way, what do you say about a person choosing any of the things below (apart from tithing) listed in my earlier post ------ based on following Mosaic law with a good heart?

A person can choose to tithe according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to be circumcised according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to make burnt offerings according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to divorce according to Mosaic law; a person can choose to follow 'an eye for an eye' according to Mosaic law etc etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam

Oh, and what about stoning adulterers or working on the sabbath or wearing clothing made of mixed materials etc etc etc still ad infinitum ad nauseam

If the Old Testament laws did not end at Calvary, how do you know which of the 613 laws came forward?

The Old Covenant ended. Otherwise we should be stoning to death disobedient children, etc. etc.

And IF the laws are still binding, then why does anyone tithe on their income and take it to the church when the law said to tithe on crops and animals and take it to the Levites?

You tithers keep rationalizing and twisting and changing God's Word to fit your argument.

A person can choose to tithe according to Mosaic lawthe instruction of God via the Holy Spirit; a person can choose to be circumcised according to Mosaic law the guidiance of the Holy Spirit; a person can choose to make burnt offerings according to Mosaic lawto Guidance of the Holy Spirit; a person can choose to divorce according to Mosaic lawthe guidiance of the Holy Spirit; a person can choose to follow 'an eye for an eye' according to Mosaic law guidiance of the Holy Spiritetc etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam

You would have noticed that I have put a strike on "Mosaic law". Why? Through the Holy Spirit , God still speaks to his children to carry out certain instructions which may look foolish to the world. The Spirit of the Lord that made residence in Abraham, David, Elijah, Elisha, and St Paul still functions in the body of Christ. John the baptist outwardly looked like a mad man to the naked eye, but Jesus Christ said he was the greatest of all the prophets.

I pray that the Spirit of the Lord will continue to guide us all (Amen)

Oh, and what about stoning adulterers or working on the sabbath or wearing clothing made of mixed materials etc etc etc still ad infinitum ad nauseam

Have u forgotten that God has ways of judging his enemies? If the Holy Spirit warns you not to work on sundays,you disagree and get robbed by armed robber, who is to blame? In contrast, If you are a medical doctor and the Holy Spirit directs you to be at the beside of a sick person in order to save his/her live, who gets the glory?

You tithers keep rationalizing and twisting and changing God's Word to fit your argument.

Proverbs 1:5-6
Let the wise listen to these proverbs and become even wiser. Let those with understanding receive guidance by exploring the meaning in these proverbs and parables, the words of the wise and their riddles.

Knowledge = Facts in the bible (WORD OF GOD)
Understanding = recognise and conprehend the FACTS
Wisdom = Applying these FACTS that you have RECOGNISED into YOUR situation.

Key to a Christain life.

Kunleoshob,
Which one is this pastor B again?


I still stand on the word of Paul that we should exegete and stand for the truth as Pastors on the word not for gain

1. "And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your TITHES, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: And there ye shall eat before the Lord your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, YE and YOUR HOUSEHOLDS, wherein the Lord thy God hath blessed thee" (Deut. 12:6-7).

2. "And even though there were no Levites in Jacob’s day, nonetheless, there were ", the STRANGER, and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, which are within thy gates, shall come, and SHALL EAT AND BE SATISFIED; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thin hand which thou doest" (Deut. 14:29).
That’s how God acknowledged a tithe from Jacob: By partaking of a portion himself and his family in communion and thanksgiving to God, and by sharing his fortune with those who were unfortunate, poor, strangers, etc.

[4] Leviticus 27:30-33, "And all the TITHE of the LAND, whether of the SEED of the land, or of the FRUIT, of the tree, is the Lord’s: it is holy unto the Lord. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the TITHE of the HERD, or of the FLOCK, even of whatsoever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it, "

We learn a great deal about tithing in this section of Scripture:

1. The tithe comes from the "land," not the air or the sea. Fishermen were not required to tithe fish.
2. It was the "seed" or agricultural products from the fields that was holy to God and tithable.
3. Products from "trees" were to be tithed. This not only included the fruit, but oils, etc.
4. Of "herds or flocks" it was the "tenth" that passed under the rod that was holy and dedicated to God

The following verses deal with a practice initiated by God Himself to accommodate those traveling long distances to the Festival Sites where they were to eat and rejoice before the Lord to learn to fear Him. They could sell their tithes of the land for MONEY, and carry that amount of money rather than the bulky and heavy tithes themselves, to the Festival Site. There they were to purchase whatever their hearts desired and to share it with the Levites and the less fortunate. These verses will be further explained in Part II of this paper

[7] Deut. 14:22-29, "Thou shall truly TITHE all the INCREASE of thy SEED, that the field brings forth year by year."
"And you shall eat before the lord your God, in the place which He shall choose to place His name there, the TITHE of thy CORN, of thy WINE, and of your OIL, and the FIRSTLINGS OF THY HERDS and of thy FLOCKS: that thou may learn to fear the Lord thy God always.
And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set His name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

Then shall thou turn it into MONEY, and bind up the MONEY in your hand, and shall go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:
And thou shall BESTOW THAT MONEY FOR WHATSOEVER YOUR SOUL LUSTETH AFTER, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for WHATSOEVER YOUR SOUL DESIRES: and YOU shall eat there before the Lord thy God, and THOU shall rejoice, THOU, AND THINE HOUSEHOLD.
And the Levite that is within thy gates, thou shall not forsake him; for he has no part, nor inheritance with thee.
At the end of three years thou shall bring forth all the TITHE of thine INCREASE the same year, and shall lay it up within thy gates:
And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the STRANGER, and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, which are within thy gates, shall come, and SHALL EAT AND BE SATISFIED; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of your hand which thou doest."

"BERACHOT SHALOM"

@yommyuk

are you part of the cec clique too? Seems you like going out more than reading your holy book for answers. You even think outside the box (bible) too. Thats cool. keep it up, someday you will know the truth.

yommyuk:

You need to go out more. . I used to be like that till I started moving around and learnt more. Go to the middle east church and you will think to are in another world" Christ can show up anywhere, anyhow as he seems fit.

That is mis-using the word.

Come on bro, You better start thinking outside the box. Broaden your horizon

@yommyuk

I don't get u,are you really trying to say that the law of moses is still valid under this present dispensation?why  is it that it is only the lucrative portions of the law like tithes that is being stressed by modern day pastors.Even at that how come the frequency of tithing was altered from once in three yearsto the now monthly tithing practised in today's churches

yommyuk:

You would have noticed that I have put a strike on "Mosaic law".

Why are you putting a strike through "Mosaic law" when that was what you were relying on in the first place? After all you are the one who first wrote:

yommyuk:

. . . If believers choose to tithe by following the Mosaic Law with a clean heart, don't u think that God will accept it.

Now you jump to the Holy Spirit: yes, the the Holy Spirit can indeed lead a person to do things "foolish" in the eyes of the world but do you think the Holy Spirit will contradict the teachings of Christ? When Jesus Christ said it is no longer "an eye for an eye", do you think the Holy Spirit will contradict that? When He said He had fulfilled the Mosaic law, do you think the Holy Spirit will contradict that? When the Bible says the Levitical priesthood and the law based on it including tithing had been done away with, do you think the Holy Spirit will contradict that.

Better quit the amulumala and stick to the advice of the posters who told you that New Testament requirement is giving which includes especially giving to the poor and needy and the latter which, fortunately, you agree with. What you do not realise is that by describing what is really giving as "tithing" you are aligning yourself with the false teachers who say "tithes" should not be given to widows (or the poor and needy) but to so-called "pastors/ministers"  who are really thieves or false teachers or at best people in error.

PS remember also that we have said repeatedly that we do not have problems with a person choosing, preferably knowledgeably, to "tithe"; we insist adamantly that "tithing" is NOT and should not be taught as Christian doctrine.

I have come to the conclusion that some "Christians" can never be moved from their indoctrinated status, they have "answers" for everything whether that makes them objects of laughter to say the least or not.

I doubt that it's only CEC in Nigeria that does this after all, Church has become the fastest growing business in Nigeria with the business plan straight out of the gold 'ol USA.

We have to keep them in our prayers and continue to do the right thing as the Spirit leads us, let us remember that Jesus Christ is the only one we should imitate.

ogajim:

I have come to the conclusion that some "Christians" can never be moved from their indoctrinated status, they have "answers" for everything whether that makes them objects of laughter to say the least or not.

Yes o! That’s a fact. The only reason some of us post around here is because of the ‘potentials’ that are likely to be deceived by their frequent regurgitation of the ‘greed/lust for material gains inspired’ pastoral misinterpretation of the bible.

ogajim:

I doubt that it's only CEC in Nigeria that does this after all, Church has become the fastest growing business in Nigeria with the business plan straight out of the gold 'ol USA.

A good number of churches preach compulsory tithing. It was never a CEC thing. It appears to be all about CEC, probably due to the fact that they have the most (hyper) active representation around here (and takes all the bashing).

LoveKing:

You even think outside the box (bible) too. Thats cool. keep it up, someday you will know the truth.

Yes o To prove tithe is compulsory you have to think outside the box (bible). You should try going through NL tithing threads; you are likely to see (fraud motivated) creativity at its best

chukwudi44:

@yommyuk

I don't get u,are you really trying to say that the law of moses is still valid under this present dispensation?why  is it that it is only the lucrative portions of the law like tithes that is being stressed by modern day pastors.Even at that how come the frequency of tithing was altered from once in three yearsto the now monthly tithing practised in today's churches

How many times do we have to say it
Tithing has nothing to do with the law,
It was instituted before the law

Was "tithing" really instituted before the law?

The first time tithe is mentioned in the Bible is Abraham's tithe of pagan spoils of war, and Abraham kept NOTHING for himself. This was NOT an act of worship. The goods that Abraham gave the tenth from didn’t even belong to Abraham:

Genesis 14:21 (NIV) - The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”

Notice in verse 21 the king of Sodom didn’t ask Abraham if he would give back to him the people, but rather said GIVE ME the people and keep the goods for yourself. The way that is worded indicates that the king of Sodom was claiming that the people and the goods belonged to him and those he represented.

Genesis 14:22-24 (NIV) - 22But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath 23that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’ 24I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me—to Aner, Eshcol and Mamre. Let them have their share.”

Notice in verses 23 and 24 Abraham also acknowledges that the goods belonged to the king of Sodom and those he represented.

Therefore, it is clear that both the king of Sodom and Abraham acknowledged that the spoils of war did NOT belong to Abraham, yet he gave a tenth of the spoils to King Melchizedek. This would seem that Abraham did something wrong, if not even illegal, but Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abraham's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils. Had Abraham not given the tenth, he would have gone against custom.

Conclusion: Abraham did NOT give a tenth of his income, or his wealth. Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war that didn’t belong to him. That is NOT an example for Christians to follow today. Furthermore, the law did NOT require a tenth of war spoils to be given, but rather 1.1%, so to say that tithing was before the law and then in the law is not true. What Abraham did was NOT codified into the later law.

The next mention of a tithe is Jacob's VOW to tithe. Jacob set the conditions, not God. Nowhere in The Word does it tell us that Jacob actually tithed. Genesis 28:10-22

Then came the tithing commands as part of the Mosaic law.

TWO examples before the law. In the first example, Abram gave a tenth of war spoils that didn't even belong to him. The later law did NOT require a tithe of war spoils. The second example is Jacob's vow to tithe with no scripture to show that Jacob ever kept his vow. That's it, and you say tithing was instituted before the law?

In the Old Testament the number ten symbolizes a whole item, and also completion.

From Christian Resources Today, “Ten : 10 - Biblical Meaning of Number: deals with completeness that happens in a divine order or completed during a course of time. There's nothing that is left wanting within the complete cycle the number ten has just completed.”

That would be the reason for a tenth and not 2 tenths, etc. One tenth would symbolize completeness; a complete transaction.

I count just over 300 occurrences of the words ten or tenth in the KJV of the Holy Bible. 95% occur before Calvary. The number 10 has much significance in the Old Testament but virtually no significance in the New Testament. In fact, some of the few times those words appear after Calvary it is in reference to the Old Covenant.

At Calvary, the Old Covenant came to its completion. There is nothing after Calvary to suggest that the number ten represents completion.

Brethen,

Bottomline, Just doing my bit for the kingdom, If it is not for u, peace.

To those who get my point, peace

Moving on to more important aspects of the Good News - Matthew 23:23-24

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Please let us discuss the Injustice of telling poor people that their salvation depends on them giving a tenth of their income for blessings. This is very unfair that someone in whom trust and leadership has been conferred should teach such a diabolical doctrine.

Please let us also discuss Mercy cos I wonder if these diabolical demagogues have any merciful instincts in them at all. If they do they should exercise it in guiding the people.

And Please let us discuss Faithfulness and the placing of one's faith in the salvation as presented in the gospel and not in some heinous man made doctrine.

Please note in Matthew 23:23 Jesus said the scribes and Pharisees, who were teachers and lawyers, paid tithes on their herbs as they ought. HERBS - increase of the seed. Jesus did NOT say they ought to pay tithes ON THEIR INCOME FROM THEIR PROFESSIONS AS TEACHERS AND LAWYERS.

This is My Verdict.

GOD DOES NOT NEED TITHES OR YOUR MONEY. SO SPEND YOUR MONEY HOW YOU WANT IT.

Your verdict does not hold any water so don't waste your words

LoveKing:

This is My Verdict.

GOD DOES NOT NEED TITHES OR YOUR MONEY. SO SPEND YOUR MONEY HOW YOU WANT IT.

True talk.