DappaD:

Coming back to the topic on ground, the ‘lake of fire’ in Revelation symbolizes the ‘second death’ – a death from which there can be no resurrection(Revelation 21:8 )
When humans die today, we can call that the ‘first death’ because there is a chance of them being resurrected. But as for the ‘second death’, it means no hope of resurrection — all memory of them is completely wiped out from history (Psalm 9:5, Proverbs 10:7)

Unfortunately sir, this is not consistent with the WORD OF GOD. I'm satisfied with Kobojunkie's comments (it was consistent with the word of God) , but then, I will drop a write up to clear the air on all this.

Op, there is nothing like hellfire. They are two separate things, hell and lake of fire. And of course Hell is real and the lake of fire is real.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Now according to the book of Rev 21:8 the lake of fire is the second death which is the final destination of sinners. While hell is the first death more like a grave where everyone lies in a state of inactivity till the day of judgment when they'll rise and final verdict will be given as to where they spend their eternity. Either in the lake of fire (second death) or Heaven eternal life.


Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Blabbermouth:

Unfortunately sir, this is not consistent with the WORD OF GOD. I'm satisfied with Kobojunkie's comments (it was consistent with the word of God) , but then, I will drop a write up to clear the air on all this.

Don't bother then.

Daejoyoung:

Lol, So feelings and emotions are not part of the divine? then where does sympathy come from?
is anger part of the divine or human emotion also? the old testament God was sometimes very angry as well, sometimes he even showed compassion and compared himself to a mother.

who struck down great kings, His love endures forever.
18
and killed mighty kings-- His love endures forever.
19
Sihon king of the Amorites His love endures forever.
20
and Og king of Bashan-- His love endures forever.
21
and gave their land as an inheritance, His love endures forever.
22
an inheritance to his servant Israel; His love endures forever.
23
to the One who remembered us in our low estate His love endures forever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Do you know who that verse was referring to? Guess! Hint: It's not Allah, It's not the Devil....
This same person also permitted the following
1. Dashing of babies against rocks
2. Devouring of Little children because they did something childish
3. Washed many in a mighty flood.
That person was the LORD GOD.
Go read my former reply to you and this time around, read in-between the lines, you will see where I said "Humanly feelings and emotions".....
God was killing kings and the psalmist still proclaimed it as love. Hey daejoyoung, frankly speaking, how does that look like love from a human perspective?
Do not find it hard to UNLEARN and RELEARN - A divine being will not have the same humanly emotions and feelings as human. So when you resurrect, you ressurect with another body that is not subjected to this worldly feelings and emotions, no! Just as the body, your feelings and emotions conform to that of Christ (yea, more like Divine!)

DappaD:

Don't bother then.

The truth should be able to stand despite every kind of scrunity, what you claimed is different from what Jesus said. I take the Word as truth and not the resolve of others.

Daejoyoung:
Well Kobojunkie to be honest, I don't understand how your quotes about jesus being the way or truth answers my question. I never disputed that jesus is the way, truth, and the life, I'm only asking you what does this mean to Taoist or say a liberal Buddhist or even Liberal muslim?

Probably mean absolutely nothing to them.

Daejoyoung:
Never said anything about worship, taoism is more of a philosophy, than it is about worship per say. What if the Tao's doctrines and teachings are all 100% thesame with that of christ?

The key here is who one serves with one's beliefs and obedience. No matter how "similar" the ideas/doctrines may seem, the one whose words/doctrines/traditions a person chooses to believe in/to trust, becomes master over that person. So in the case of Taoists, even though the ideas put forth may seem similar to some of Christ's teachings, the men who are credited with putting for came up with putting forward the idea of Taoism, are the masters over the minds of those who follow their way/doctrines.

Daejoyoung:
What if Confucius and Christ do not really differ in their teachings?

So long as Confucious was not teaching OF Jesus Christ but instead a way different from Jesus Christ, Confucious does not teach Jesus Christ.

Daejoyoung:
Well we agree to disagree on that passage for now.

Cool... it is important though to let God speak for Himself.

Blabbermouth:

The truth should be able to stand despite every kind of scrunity, what you claimed is different from what Jesus said. I take the Word as truth and not the resolve of others.

Have you people started again?
What exactly have I said with respect to Jesus on this thread now?

Blabbermouth:

The truth should be able to stand despite every kind of scrunity, what you claimed is different from what Jesus said. I take the Word as truth and not the resolve of others.

OK I've heard you and your partner
Let me inform you in case you don't know. What Jesus said at Matthew 25 will have to conform with the other parts of the Bible. God's holy spirit was directing all these things so there can't be a contradiction.

Matthew 25:46 states in many Bibles that there will be an ‘eternal punishment’ for evildoers, correct?
Now the Greek word translated there is ‘kolasis’ and it gives a generic meaning to the word ‘punishment’ – but in itself depicts an actual ‘pruning’ or ‘cutting off’ that is, total annihilation/destruction once and for all and is not depicting an everlasting torment in a fiery place. These words of Jesus will have to agree with the other parts of the Bible. The wicked are to be cut-off/done away with/destroyed forever (Psalms 37:10,38, 104:35, Proverbs 2:22, 2Peter 2:9,3:7-9)

Daejoyoung:
Matthew 19v28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Oh, ok. You mentioned a dream, and got me wondering where Jesus Christ spoke of a dream of His.

Matthew 19 vs 26-30 (ESV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
26. Jesus looked at them and said, “This is something that people cannot do. But God can do anything.”
27. Peter said to him, “We left everything we had and followed you. So what will we have?”
28. Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
29. Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow me will get much more than they left. And they will have eternal life.
30. Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future.

Obviously, more than 12 people followed Him.

Daejoyoung:
Luke 24v19-21
What things?” he asked.

“About Jesus of Nazareth,”they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place
Acts 1v6
Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?

There you have it... 2 more followers of Jesus Christ recorded in the passage below... meaning there were more than 12 to go on the 12 thrones.

Luke 24 vs 13-30 (ESV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13. That same day two of Jesus’ followers were going to a town named Emmaus. It is about seven miles[b] from Jerusalem.
14. They were talking about everything that had happened.
15. While they were talking, discussing these things, Jesus himself came near and walked with them.
16. (But the two men were not allowed to recognize Jesus.) \
17. He asked them, “What’s this I hear you discussing with each other as you walk?”
The two men stopped, their faces looking very sad.
18. The one named Cleopas said, “You must be the only person in Jerusalem who doesn’t know what has just happened there.”

19. Jesus said, “What are you talking about?”
They said, “It’s about Jesus, the one from Nazareth. To God and to all the people he was a great prophet. He said and did many powerful things.
20. But our leaders and the leading priests handed him over to be judged and killed. They nailed him to a cross.
21. We were hoping that he would be the one to free Israel. But then all this happened.
“And now something else: It has been three days since he was killed,
22. but today some of our women told us an amazing thing. Early this morning they went to the tomb where the body of Jesus was laid.
23. But they did not find his body there. They came and told us they had seen some angels in a vision. The angels told them Jesus was alive!
24. So some of our group went to the tomb too. It was just as the women said. They saw the tomb, but they did not see Jesus.”
25. Then Jesus said to the two men, “You are foolish and slow to realize what is true. You should believe everything the prophets said.
26. The prophets said the Messiah must suffer these things before he begins his time of glory.”
27. Then he began to explain everything that had been written about himself in the Scriptures. He started with the books of Moses and then he talked about what the prophets had said about him.
28. They came near the town of Emmaus, and Jesus acted as if he did not plan to stop there.
29. But they wanted him to stay. They begged him, “Stay with us. It’s almost night. There’s hardly any daylight left.” So he went in to stay with them.

Cool! I believe the Sons of God will rule in the Kingdom alongside Jesus Christ, the first born of God(Sons are heirs after all).

Cc: Maximus69, Captainman, Chatinent, DappaD, kobojunkie, Daejoyoung, other JW's in the house, and fellow Christians....
When Christ Jesus said "Anywhere 2 (or more) are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them" , if perfectly understood and acknowledged, we would be having more of a fellowship discussion and not aimless arguments where everyone is trying hard to shove his/her own resolve down anyone's throat.
When we discuss, we kind of ignore Christ and move on to propagating whatever essence less doctrine we have - sadly, this is what immaturity actually is. How can you be arguing about things pertaining to Christ when Christ himself is present? How can I be arguing that Buhari is a Muslim when Buhari himself is present? Since Christ is here, why shouldn't we just ask him?
That being said, I will implore anyone reading this to sustain the humility to UNLEARN and RELEARN as long as whatever you are relearning is coming from the horse's mouth (from Christ himself). Even if its hard, you should come to realize that when push comes to shove, you belong to Christ Jesus and not some denomination or sect.
Alright, that being said, let us answer the question- IS HELLFIRE REAL?
When Christ Jesus was praying (John 17), he asked that whereever he is (in Glory), there should his servants be. Hey beloved, there is also a similar arrangement for the devil...
Matthew 25:41
"Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed INTO everlasting fire, PREPARED for the devil and his angels"
According to Christ, wherever the devil is (in torment), there shall his followers be... (Note this, we will reference it soon)
According to Christ, a place was/has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Now the contention is, is the "Everlasting Fire" or say "Lake of fire" a location (I.e. a place) or a state (of total inexistence)?
Let's hear from Christ again
(About the second death)
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and Sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the LAKE which BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: which is the second death" -Rev 21:8
It's about to get interesting now, see what the after-verse says
"For without (I.e. Outside the gates) are dogs, and sorcerers and whoremongers, and murderers, idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" -Rev 22:15
What does this tell us?
1. Those whose name is not written in the book of life will be outside the gates
2. (From the first verse), they will be with the devil and his angels
3. The Lake of Fire is a place!
Perhaps there are still fickles of contention, trying to believe that the fire still means "eternal cut-off" or a state of inexistence, let's use another verse to round this up...
PS: The Beast (Alias Antichrist) is a man! (2 Th 2:4-
Rev 19:20 - "And the beast (Antichrist) was taken, and with him the false prophet (also a man) that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshiped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into a LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE"
Perhaps you rushed that scripture, go back and read in-between where it says - CAST ALIVE..... Here is a rhetorical question
Where were they Cast into? Hahahaha
Is the Lake of fire or ETERNAL FIRE a place (location) or a state of eternal inexistence...
If truly the scripture cannot be broken, if truly a line cannot both be straight and curved, then verily, the ETERNAL FIRE is a location and it is real!
Proof:
1. The Lake of Fire is a place (Rev 21:
2.Those cast into it were ALIVE (Rev 19:20)
PS: You can try explaining how a being can be alive and at the same time Nonexistent
3. The torture in the Lake is forever and ever (Rev 20:10)
PS: You can try explaining how a nonexistent being can be tortured.
4. 1,2,3 are confirmed by Christ!

PEACE!

Daejoyoung, I should add, that when it comes to knowing God, God will reveal Himself to those He chooses, in His time. Up until about 2016, I was myself an atheist, then I decided to seek the source of all things, and eventually, I came to know God, not by any man/woman preaching to me, but by asking Him to show Himself to me and following the cues as He provided them.
Below passage tells what God Himself said would be the case with His new Covenant, and as I already pointed out, those in Christian religions have a foundation built on lies that they would need to get free of in order to know God. Even the Pharisees/Sadduccees believed they belonged to God but according to Jesus Christ, they were of their father, the devil.

Jeremiah 31 vs 31-34 (ERV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31. “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32. not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.
33. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

If I had to mention any one thing that God used to draw me to His person, I would mention Andrew Lloyd Weber's movie from Broadway, "Jesus Christ Superstar," which I watched several times as a child, and still see every now and then as an adult. God used it to plant questions in my head and mind, since I was young, and those questions yielded even more questions as I grew up about existence and life in general.

Andrew Lloyd Weber is not what you would call a "believer" or Christian and His broadway show was not made to save anyone but simply entertain the controversial.

My point is, do not worry about the Taoist, and the others. God knows when and how to reach them, in His time, and His way.

Blabbermouth:
Cc: Maximus69, Chatinent, DappaD, kobojunkie, Daejoyoung, other JW's in the house, and fellow Christians....
When Christ Jesus said "Anywhere 2 (or more) are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them" , if perfectly understood and acknowledged, we would be having more of a fellowship discussion and not aimless arguments where everyone is trying hard to shove his/her own resolve down anyone's throat.
When we discuss, we kind of ignore Christ and move on to propagating whatever essence less doctrine we have - sadly, this is what immaturity actually is. How can you be arguing about things pertaining to Christ when Christ himself is present? How can I be arguing that Buhari is a Muslim when Buhari himself is present? Since Christ is here, why shouldn't we just ask him?
That being said, I will implore anyone reading this to sustain the humility to UNLEARN and RELEARN as long as whatever you are relearning is coming from the horse's mouth (from Christ himself). Even if its hard, you should come to realize that when push comes to shove, you belong to Christ Jesus and not some denomination or sect.
Alright, that being said, let us answer the question- IS HELLFIRE REAL?
When Christ Jesus was praying (John 17), he asked that whereever he is (in Glory), there should his servants be. Hey beloved, there is also a similar arrangement for the devil...
Matthew 25:41
"Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed INTO everlasting fire, PREPARED for the devil and his angels"
According to Christ, wherever the devil is (in torment), there shall his followers be... (Note this, we will reference it soon)
According to Christ, a place was/has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Now the contention is, is the "Everlasting Fire" or say "Lake of fire" a location (I.e. a place) or a state (of total inexistence)?
Let's hear from Christ again
(About the second death)
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and Sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the LAKE which BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: which is the second death" -Rev 21:8
It's about to get interesting now, see what the after-verse says
"For without (I.e. Outside the gates) are dogs, and sorcerers and whoremongers, and murderers, idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" -Rev 22:15
What does this tell us?
1. Those whose name is not written in the book of life will be outside the gates
2. (From the first verse), they will be with the devil and his angels
3. The Lake of Fire is a place!
Perhaps there are still fickles of contention, trying to believe that the fire still means "eternal cut-off" or a state of inexistence, let's use another verse to round this up...
PS: The Beast (Alias Antichrist) is a man! (2 Th 2:4-
Rev 19:20 - "And the beast (Antichrist) was taken, and with him the false prophet (also a man) that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshiped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into a LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE"
Perhaps you rushed that scripture, go back and read in-between where it says - CAST ALIVE..... Here is a rhetorical question
Where were they Cast into? Hahahaha
Is the Lake of fire or ETERNAL FIRE a place (location) or a state of eternal inexistence...
If truly the scripture cannot be broken, if truly a line cannot both be straight and curved, then verily, the ETERNAL FIRE is a location and it is real!
Proof:
1. The Lake of Fire is a place
2.Those cast into it were ALIVE
3. The torture in the Lake is forever and ever
4. 1,2,3 are confirmed by Christ!

PEACE!

OK! Noted sir.

DappaD:

OK! Noted sir.

The existence of an eternal fire is consistent with the Word of God. Whether you chose to believe it or not, technically has no salvation value... But then, please learn to UNLEARN and RELEARN even if what you've relearned has contradicted the belief of your sect (as long as it is in line with Christ.
Peace!

Blabbermouth:
Cc: Maximus69, Chatinent, DappaD, kobojunkie, Daejoyoung, other JW's in the house, and fellow Christians....
When Christ Jesus said "Anywhere 2 (or more) are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them" , if perfectly understood and acknowledged, we would be having more of a fellowship discussion and not aimless arguments where everyone is trying hard to shove his/her own resolve down anyone's throat.

Let us leave the above for another thread as the meaning contained needs to be made clear on another thread, another time.

Blabbermouth:
When we discuss, we kind of ignore Christ and move on to propagating whatever essence less doctrine we have - sadly, this is what immaturity actually is. How can you be arguing about things pertaining to Christ when Christ himself is present? How can I be arguing that Buhari is a Muslim when Buhari himself is present? Since Christ is here, why shouldn't we just ask him?
That being said, I will implore anyone reading this to sustain the humility to UNLEARN and RELEARN as long as whatever you are relearning is coming from the horse's mouth (from Christ himself). Even if its hard, you should come to realize that when push comes to shove, you belong to Christ Jesus and not some denomination or sect.

Jesus Christ did command that those who intend to enter His Kingdom need to be open-minded, UNLEARN all their previous misconceptions of who God is and about the things of God, instead allowing God to Himself teach them of who He truly is.

Matthew 14 vs 23-24
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23. Then he said, “The truth is, you must change your thinking and become like little children. If you don’t do this, you will never enter God’s kingdom.
24. The greatest person in God’s kingdom is the one who makes himself humble like this child.

Blabbermouth:
Alright, that being said, let us answer the question- IS HELLFIRE REAL?
When Christ Jesus was praying (John 17), he asked that whereever he is (in Glory), there should his servants be. Hey beloved, there is also a similar arrangement for the devil...
Matthew 25:41
"Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed INTO everlasting fire, PREPARED for the devil and his angels"
According to Christ, wherever the devil is (in torment), there shall his followers be... (Note this, we will reference it soon)
According to Christ, a place was/has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Now the contention is, is the "Everlasting Fire" or say "Lake of fire" a location (I.e. a place) or a state (of total inexistence)?
Let's hear from Christ again
(About the second death)
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and Sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the LAKE which BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: which is the second death" -Rev 21:8
It's about to get interesting now, see what the after-verse says
"For without (I.e. Outside the gates) are dogs, and sorcerers and whoremongers, and murderers, idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" -Rev 22:15
What does this tell us?
1. Those whose name is not written in the book of life will be outside the gates
2. (From the first verse), they will be with the devil and his angels
3. The Lake of Fire is a place!
Perhaps there are still fickles of contention, trying to believe that the fire still means "eternal cut-off" or a state of inexistence, let's use another verse to round this up...

The greek word for ETERNAL FIRE in Matthew 25 vs 41 is expressed pyr to aionion, not what the other posted earlier which is from Matthew 25 vs 46 where the ETERNAL FIRE is not even mentioned.

Blabbermouth:
PS: The Beast (Alias Antichrist) is a man! (2 Th 2:4-
Rev 19:20 - "And the beast (Antichrist) was taken, and with him the false prophet (also a man) that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshiped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into a LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE"
Perhaps you rushed that scripture, go back and read in-between where it says - CAST ALIVE..... Here is a rhetorical question
Where were they Cast into? Hahahaha
Is the Lake of fire or ETERNAL FIRE a place (location) or a state of eternal inexistence...
If truly the scripture cannot be broken, if truly a line cannot both be straight and curved, then verily, the ETERNAL FIRE is a location and it is real!
Proof:
1. The Lake of Fire is a place
2.Those cast into it were ALIVE
3. The torture in the Lake is forever and ever
4. 1,2,3 are confirmed by Christ!

PEACE!

I read Revelations as a dream sequence, and since I have no gift of interpretations of dream, especially that of someone else, and I refuse to read LITERALLY from a dream sequence, I am not sure any of this is true.

Kobojunkie:

I read Revelations as a dream sequence, and since I have no gift of interpretations of dream, especially that of someone else, and I refuse to read LITERALLY from a dream sequence, I am not sure any of this is true.

You should follow from the Book of Daniel, some psalms and Book of Zechariah (Those two guys were given the interpretation of many of their dreams and visions. Fortunately, the dreams and visions also complement the ones John had. With those interpretations (already given), .. The book of revelations becomes plainer and a large chunk of it can be understood perfectly.

Blabbermouth:
You should follow from the Book of Daniel, some psalms and Book of Zechariah (Those two guys were given the interpretation of many of their dreams and visions. Fortunately, the dreams and visions also complement the ones John had. With those interpretations (already given), .. The book of revelations becomes plainer and a large chunk of it can be understood perfectly.

The men you mention were prophets of God, and the visions in question were theirs, not someone else's dream or vision.

When the person who has the dream tells us what it means, then we can indeed accept their interpretation. But when a third party suggests the interpretation, it is still up to the one who had the dream, to tell us if indeed the interpretation makes sense. Daniel, Zechariah, and John are not here for us to ask if the interpretation we give each of their dreams makes sense.

Now the dreams/visions may in some way complement, but again applying literal interpretation to a dream is risky business, for as long as humans are doing the interpreting(either literal or none), what we will get are nothing but lies since we have no real truth except that which God feeds us. That is why you find there is so much division as far as those translations of the dream/vision.

Jesus Christ is the word of God, for Him is found truth and no lies. So we freely believe His word is Truth because it is the word of God. However, when anyone else writes, I like to do as Paul suggested, Let man be a liar and God be true.... verify what is stated by man, any man, against the Word out of God's own mouth (the only truth as far as the entire Bible is concerned).

Blabbermouth:

The existence of an eternal fire is consistent with the Word of God. Whether you chose to believe it or not, technically has no salvation value... But then, please learn to UNLEARN and RELEARN even if what you've relearned has contradicted the belief of your sect (as long as it is in line with Christ.
Peace!

OK sir but just a friendly reminder– that you and your partner have done nothing so far but beat around the bush with long irrelevant posts on this thread that aren't convincing to a sane person seeking truth – so I choose not to UNLEARN established Bible truths which I have learned from Jehovah's Witnesses. Come and beat me or better yet, threaten me with your useless nonexistent ‘hellfire’.

Kobojunkie:
keep deluding yourself there.. Your gospels were originally written in greek language, and not hebrew, by the way.
If you cannot believe that Jesus Christ words are indeed the Truth of God, what can you believe of Him?

If you have to circumvent His own words in order to get the doctrine you subscribe to, to prevail, then I hate to tell you that you believe a lie and not Jesus Christ.
Stop blabbering and learn to focus on the topic at hand!

You can't understand Jesus' teachings more than Peter his close confidant who lived with him!

Peter said the holy one of Israel doesn't want anyone to be destroyed, so it's evident that God never planned destruction from the beginning, it was Satan, Adam and Eve that were to be destroyed not Adam's imperfect descendants!

Blabbermouth:
Cc: Maximus69, Captainman, Chatinent, DappaD, kobojunkie, Daejoyoung, other JW's in the house, and fellow Christians....
When Christ Jesus said "Anywhere 2 (or more) are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them" , if perfectly understood and acknowledged, we would be having more of a fellowship discussion and not aimless arguments where everyone is trying hard to shove his/her own resolve down anyone's throat.
When we discuss, we kind of ignore Christ and move on to propagating whatever essence less doctrine we have - sadly, this is what immaturity actually is. How can you be arguing about things pertaining to Christ when Christ himself is present? How can I be arguing that Buhari is a Muslim when Buhari himself is present? Since Christ is here, why shouldn't we just ask him?
That being said, I will implore anyone reading this to sustain the humility to UNLEARN and RELEARN as long as whatever you are relearning is coming from the horse's mouth (from Christ himself). Even if its hard, you should come to realize that when push comes to shove, you belong to Christ Jesus and not some denomination or sect.
Alright, that being said, let us answer the question- IS HELLFIRE REAL?
When Christ Jesus was praying (John 17), he asked that whereever he is (in Glory), there should his servants be. Hey beloved, there is also a similar arrangement for the devil...
Matthew 25:41
"Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed INTO everlasting fire, PREPARED for the devil and his angels"
According to Christ, wherever the devil is (in torment), there shall his followers be... (Note this, we will reference it soon)
According to Christ, a place was/has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Now the contention is, is the "Everlasting Fire" or say "Lake of fire" a location (I.e. a place) or a state (of total inexistence)?
Let's hear from Christ again
(About the second death)
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and Sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the LAKE which BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: which is the second death" -Rev 21:8
It's about to get interesting now, see what the after-verse says
"For without (I.e. Outside the gates) are dogs, and sorcerers and whoremongers, and murderers, idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" -Rev 22:15
What does this tell us?
1. Those whose name is not written in the book of life will be outside the gates
2. (From the first verse), they will be with the devil and his angels
3. The Lake of Fire is a place!
Perhaps there are still fickles of contention, trying to believe that the fire still means "eternal cut-off" or a state of inexistence, let's use another verse to round this up...
PS: The Beast (Alias Antichrist) is a man! (2 Th 2:4-
Rev 19:20 - "And the beast (Antichrist) was taken, and with him the false prophet (also a man) that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshiped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into a LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE"
Perhaps you rushed that scripture, go back and read in-between where it says - CAST ALIVE..... Here is a rhetorical question
Where were they Cast into? Hahahaha
Is the Lake of fire or ETERNAL FIRE a place (location) or a state of eternal inexistence...
If truly the scripture cannot be broken, if truly a line cannot both be straight and curved, then verily, the ETERNAL FIRE is a location and it is real!
Proof:
1. The Lake of Fire is a place (Rev 21:
2.Those cast into it were ALIVE (Rev 19:20)
PS: You can try explaining how a being can be alive and at the same time Nonexistent
3. The torture in the Lake is forever and ever (Rev 20:10)
PS: You can try explaining how a nonexistent being can be tortured.
4. 1,2,3 are confirmed by Christ!

PEACE!

It's only the living that can feel torture, the dead are conscious of nothing! Ecclesiastes 9:5

Jesus spoke in illustrations, so when he is talking about torture he's not referring to what happens after death but those whose hearts burns with envy!

Blabbermouth:
Cc: Maximus69, Captainman, Chatinent, DappaD, kobojunkie, Daejoyoung, other JW's in the house, and fellow Christians....
When Christ Jesus said "Anywhere 2 (or more) are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them" , if perfectly understood and acknowledged, we would be having more of a fellowship discussion and not aimless arguments where everyone is trying hard to shove his/her own resolve down anyone's throat.
When we discuss, we kind of ignore Christ and move on to propagating whatever essence less doctrine we have - sadly, this is what immaturity actually is. How can you be arguing about things pertaining to Christ when Christ himself is present? How can I be arguing that Buhari is a Muslim when Buhari himself is present? Since Christ is here, why shouldn't we just ask him?
That being said, I will implore anyone reading this to sustain the humility to UNLEARN and RELEARN as long as whatever you are relearning is coming from the horse's mouth (from Christ himself). Even if its hard, you should come to realize that when push comes to shove, you belong to Christ Jesus and not some denomination or sect.
Alright, that being said, let us answer the question- IS HELLFIRE REAL?
When Christ Jesus was praying (John 17), he asked that whereever he is (in Glory), there should his servants be. Hey beloved, there is also a similar arrangement for the devil...
Matthew 25:41
"Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed INTO everlasting fire, PREPARED for the devil and his angels"
According to Christ, wherever the devil is (in torment), there shall his followers be... (Note this, we will reference it soon)
According to Christ, a place was/has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Now the contention is, is the "Everlasting Fire" or say "Lake of fire" a location (I.e. a place) or a state (of total inexistence)?
Let's hear from Christ again
(About the second death)
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and Sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the LAKE which BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: which is the second death" -Rev 21:8
It's about to get interesting now, see what the after-verse says
"For without (I.e. Outside the gates) are dogs, and sorcerers and whoremongers, and murderers, idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" -Rev 22:15
What does this tell us?
1. Those whose name is not written in the book of life will be outside the gates
2. (From the first verse), they will be with the devil and his angels
3. The Lake of Fire is a place!
Perhaps there are still fickles of contention, trying to believe that the fire still means "eternal cut-off" or a state of inexistence, let's use another verse to round this up...
PS: The Beast (Alias Antichrist) is a man! (2 Th 2:4-
Rev 19:20 - "And the beast (Antichrist) was taken, and with him the false prophet (also a man) that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshiped his image. These both were CAST ALIVE into a LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE"
Perhaps you rushed that scripture, go back and read in-between where it says - CAST ALIVE..... Here is a rhetorical question
Where were they Cast into? Hahahaha
Is the Lake of fire or ETERNAL FIRE a place (location) or a state of eternal inexistence...
If truly the scripture cannot be broken, if truly a line cannot both be straight and curved, then verily, the ETERNAL FIRE is a location and it is real!
Proof:
1. The Lake of Fire is a place (Rev 21:
2.Those cast into it were ALIVE (Rev 19:20)
PS: You can try explaining how a being can be alive and at the same time Nonexistent
3. The torture in the Lake is forever and ever (Rev 20:10)
PS: You can try explaining how a nonexistent being can be tortured.
4. 1,2,3 are confirmed by Christ!

PEACE!

While I agree with some of what you've said, it seems what you've left out and JWs don't know is the fact that hell is the repercussion for sin and death, it is created by sin itself and is not the creation nor the judgement of God. It comes with the first death, the lake of fire is God's judgement and is the second death where he punishes everything that is not part of his creation even hell itself. If your child puts his hand in fire and gets burnt, it is a repercussion but if you flog the child for that so that he will not do it again, that is your own penalty to help him never to make the same mistake.
All men enter into a covenant with death and hell through the bondage of sin and if they die in that state, their souls will be found in hell until their judgement when their bodies will be resurrected but the souls of those who find salvation in Christ will be in paradise until their resurrection to receive their own rewards.
This is easily seen in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Of course some lie that it is only a parable. Jesus taught bin parables but study every parable of Jesus, you see the use of similes e.g. "The kingdom of heaven is like..." and even the parables were speaking of realities. So were it a parable, it will still be speaking of what really happens in the afterlife.
However, it is evident that this was a real life story because as he said: "There was a certain rich man...". It was something that really happened in other words. No. This was no parable, it was a real life story and tells where souls of men go immediately after death, awaiting their judgement from God, when their bodies decay in the ground.

Maximus69:


This analogy of yours, how is suspending living creatures to excruciating pains throughout eternity a penalty to help them never to make the same mistake?

God is not trying to help the sinners, they are not his children but of the devil, John 8:44. He is putting everything that is against His idea out of His way. The point of analogy is to show you the difference in the two deaths. Also imagine a man who goes to steal and gets shot and wounded during a crossfire. That is a consequence of His action but not a judgement. When he is finally caught, He must still face the law of the land and end up in prison for the peace of the land.

Maximus69:
You can't understand Jesus' teachings more than Peter his close confidant who lived with him!

What are you babbling about there? Jesus Christ, in His word, tells you what He means yet you are still rattling on about Peter?

Maximus69:
Peter said the holy one of Israel doesn't want anyone to be destroyed, so it's evident that God never planned destruction from the beginning, it was Satan, Adam and Eve that were to be destroyed not Adam's imperfect descendants!

Again, Jesus Christ is the word of God and He already stated in clear words what will be.

Your choice to live in denial, even to the point of labeling Jesus Christ a liar in favor of your understanding of his servants words, does not come as a shock at all. So, at this point I will ask that you quit responding... I intend to, since we obviously do not worship the same God.

DrLiveLogic:

While I agree with some of what you've said, it seems what you and JWs are missing is the fact that hell is the repercussion for sin and death, it is created by sin itself and is not the creation nor the judgement of God. It comes with the first death, the lake of fire is God's judgement and is the second death where he punishes everything that is not part of his creation even hell itself.


If your child puts his hand in fire and gets burnt, it is a repercussion but if you flog the child for that so that he will not do it again, that is your own penalty to help him never to make the same mistake.

This analogy of yours, how is suspending living creatures to excruciating pains throughout eternity a penalty to help them never to make the same mistake?

Kobojunkie:
What are you babbling about there? Jesus Christ, in His word, tells you what He means yet you are still rattling on about Peter?
Again, Jesus Christ is the word of God and He already stated in clear words what will be.

Your choice to live in denial, even to the point of labeling Jesus Christ a liar in favor of your understanding of his servants words, does not come as a shock at all. So, at this point I will ask that you quit responding... I intend to, since we obviously do not worship the same God.

The bolded is what JWs has been telling those who are not part of our global family for ages!

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, it's only JWs that are worshipers of my own God, so continue arguing with worshipers of your own God, in the midst of the worshipers of my own God, there is no contradictions {1Corinthians 14:33} because we are all of the same line of thought! Romans 15:5-6; 1Corinthians 1:10; Ephesians 4:3; Philippians 2:2