:::::smdh:::::

It is also likely that due to their islamic heritage- something that jenifa failed to highlight- the North would not have been the prime place for the British to develop. This Islamic education would have made the North less willing to accept western education which they probably linked to British Christianity. There is no difference in the potential of the North but in their culture, a culture which unfortunately might possibly be incompatible with entrepreneurship, independence, and a quest for education and self-reflection. The first step would be to change that culture.

The first sentence of my first post on this thread was that the north isn't connected to the western world.
and of course what I mean by that is that it is more connected to the east due to the islamic heritage.
and I said a way to change that will be to connect nigeria more. literally. ie opening trade routes and building effective transportation systems. this is especially good for nation building.

and later in my second post, I gave additional reasons. ex. british interest - they built infrastructure in the areas they were interested in extracting economic wealth from ie the south.

something to note also is that we have to think of the word "develop" in relative terms. back then in late 1800s, the muslims up north were relatively developed. they had writing (arabic) etc and quest for education is definitely very high!! schooling in religious studies is a rite of passage for many. the legacy still exist (alhjamaras??) today although it is now pitiable.

and to talk of entrepreneurship, northerners were trade brokers between the outside world (middle east) and the rest of the other regions before the british came into the scene.

in fact, i think it was the northerners connection to the east that gave them a "civilized" edge over igbos and yorubas. the british when they came recognized this.

we in the south got some physical and social infrastructure (that laid the foundation to be built upon )from  the west and the west is currently the most powerful in the world. If it were the middle east, things will be opposite.

so I wouldn't belittle northern cultures. anyways, our points overlap in many areas which is good. lol

^^^^^
Right again!

Lady, I do admire your patience and tenacity, unfortunately you are dealing with guys in real denial. Sadly, they will never see your point because their bigoted minds are like concrete - ALL MIXED UP AND PERMANENTLY SET. Its useless, they will never accept the facts before them but will be trying to rewrite history.

PhysicsMHD:

If you can defend her assertion, do so. Her penultimate post was an evasion, as far as I'm concerned.

Yep, sure you are entitled to your opinion.

Jenifa_:


1. ok then no personal attacks. But anyways, I think it's because my comments weren't clouted by tribalistic sentiments as yours are.

2. Like I said earlier, hausa states were more organized from the british point of view. They choose the north as the seat of government because of their relatively organized structure compared to ours and the igbos'. I actually thought this was common knowledge. This was why we had indirect rule. The idea started with Luggard in Northern Nigeria like Aboki already mentioned.

3. All you did here was support my claim that the north has always been poor financially due to lack of natural resources even though politically, they were strong - especially during and after colonial rule.

4. Through Unknown Nigeria by John Raphael. The entire chapter 3.


lol of course. It all started in northern nigeria and was extended to the south and other parts of british west africa (even ghana had a native authority). see #2.

1. Tribalistic sentiments? Are you under the impression that I'm Yoruba? You don't really understand what my issue was with your assertion and you've been accusing me this whole time without even bothering to actually address anything I stated or think about why I took issue with your statement. Instead you just resorted to conjecturing about my motivation for asking how you reached your conclusions about relative organization.

2. Ours? I'm not Yoruba.    Firstly, Calabar, and then Lagos were the original seats of government for the British. However, by 1906  Frederick Lugard had pacified most of Northern Nigeria and after the amalgamation the decision for Lokoja to be the seat of government can be tied to Lugard, who was put in charge of Nigeria. I never disputed that Lugard and other British colonialists had a more positive view of "Mohammedan" (their words) culture than that of the non-Muslims in the South. My contention was with your repetition of the so-called organizational superiority of the North over the southern communities as though it were actually a fact. I can't see how anybody could familiarize themselves with the actual details of the organizational systems of many (but not all) southern groups and reach the conclusion that the British were actually correct; that's why I told you to go read and then get back to me.

3. Did I ever dispute the claim that they were always poor? That was not the issue for me but you kept repeating it as though it had some particular relevance to what I originally asked you. I was only going into detail about why the colonialists spent less money initially on the North and how that necessitated merging it with the South.

4. Thanks. That book is sufficiently old and obscure that I can't access it or read chapter 3, but I'll take your word for it.

Me_Aboki:

^^^^^
Right again!

Lady, I do admire your patience and tenacity, unfortunately you are dealing with guys in real denial. Sadly, they will never see your point because their bigoted minds are like concrete - ALL MIXED UP AND PERMANENTLY SET. Its useless, they will never accept the facts before them but will be trying to rewrite history.

Yep, sure you are entitled to your opinion.

If you're going to sit on the sidelines like a spectator, please refrain from barking at the debaters like a dog with no training. You certainly wouldn't do that in real life at a public debate.

Thank you and have a nice day.

why are you pissed that I assumed you were yoruba? I made the assumption based on your relation with the poster below me.
besides you also have made false assumptions about my origin.

My contention was with your repetition of the so-called organizational superiority of the North over the southern communities as though it were actually a fact. I can't see how anybody could familiarize themselves with the actual details of the organizational systems of many (but not all) southern groups and reach the conclusion that the British were actually correct; that's why I told you to go read and then get back to me.

I don't know what you are on about. I never repeated it as a fact. I even mentioned many times that I was speaking from a british perspective. It was their opinion. not mine. So you are free to contend with the british on that one. not me.

yes all cultures have complex systems of organization. that is a very subjective topic. but I'm talking about a system that is more suited to "civilized" British taste. It wasn't just the culture that they admired. they also admired their system of administration.  I repeated many times that i was speaking on what the British thought. The british rationale.


you are the one who needs to go and read for making such an ignorant statement as this one below. you obviously have base assumptions about northerners.

There is no difference in the potential of the North but in their culture, a culture which unfortunately might possibly be incompatible with entrepreneurship, independence, and a quest for education and self-reflection. The first step would be to change that culture.

^^^

I have tried to be respectful but please stop bringing my name into any of your discussion or post. DOnt mention my name again, This is the last time I am going to warn you. And, I do mean it!

fstranger3:

^^^

I have tried to be respectful but please stop bringing my name into any of your discussion or post. DOnt mention my name again, This is the last time I am going to warn you. And, I do mean it!

post has being modified 

Me_Aboki:

^^^^^
Right again!

Lady, I do admire your patience and tenacity, unfortunately you are dealing with guys in real denial. Sadly, they will never see your point because their bigoted minds are like concrete - ALL MIXED UP AND PERMANENTLY SET. Its useless, they will never accept the facts before them but will be trying to rewrite history.

Yep, sure you are entitled to your opinion.

I definitely agree with you on many points.

Jenifa_:

why are you pissed that I assumed you were yoruba? I made the assumption based on your relation with the poster below me.
besides you also have made false assumptions about my origin.


I don't know what you are on about. I never repeated it as a fact. I even mentioned many times that I was speaking from a british perspective and explaining why they chose the north over the south. It was their opinion. not mine. So you are free to contend with the british on that one. not me.

yes all cultures have complex systems of organization. that is a very subjective topic. but I'm talking about an efficient system that is more suited to "civilized" British taste. It wasn't just the culture that they admired. I repeated many times that i was speaking on what the British thought. The british rationale for choosing the north.

In fact, you are the one who needs to go and read for making such an ignorant statement as this one below. you obviously have base assumptions about northerners.

I'm not angry about the Yoruba assumption. What was annoying was that you went on assuming that my motivations were tribalist without a single shred of evidence,  Well let me just tell you what my motivations were since you didn't get it. When, upon comparing indigenous African organizational systems and "Mohammedan" organizational systems somebody asserts that:

Jenifa_: lthough colonial govt did use the north as the seat of power because of their relatively organized structure (compared to yorubas and certainly compared to igbos lol)

there is no indication that they are only speaking about what the British thought. It seemed hat was your actual view and I asked a question about why you held those views, but if you were only speaking for the British colonials, then that's another thing and it really was my mistake. My motivation was to engage in a factual discussion of this claim and if you could convince me that this original statement was actually reasonable I would have conceded, but it seemed like an assertion to me.


And the ignorant statement below about Northerners was not made by me so I hope you meant to address somebody else.


Anyway, have a nice day. Let's not take this too seriously.

and I wonder what evidence you have that i'm latvian/ non-nigerian.

there is no indication that they are only speaking about what the British thought. It seemed hat was your actual view and I asked a question about why you held those views, but if you were only speaking for the British colonials, then that's another thing and it really was my mistake. My motivation was to engage in a factual discussion of this claim and if you could convince me that this original statement was actually reasonable I would have conceded, but it seemed like an assertion to me.

and in a consequent post, I clarified what I mean. how did I repeat it as a fact then? I really don't see your point.
maybe I should have used the word "civilized" instead of "organized"
I still believe you know what I mean but are just trying to argue for no reason.

I don't even know why you are making a big deal out of it because it doesn't have much to do with the topic question. My original point was that although the british favored northerners organization(or insert your preferred word choice here ) structure, there wasn't much incentive to build the region. and the northerners resisted as well due to their relatively developed state at the time.

And the ignorant statement below about Northerners was not made by me so I hope you meant to address somebody else.

srry about that. It was probably Sefago.


yea have a nice day 

PhysicsRND:

If you're going to sit on the sidelines like a spectator, please refrain from barking at the debaters like a dog with no training. You certainly wouldn't do that in real life at a public debate.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Sorry to disappoint, infact this dog is quite well trained and knows exactly when to bark and when to bite - its a matter of timing.

Have already made my point, no need repeating; besides Jenifa is also doing a good job corroborating and upholding those views - is that too difficult for you to comprehend?

please let all my norther brothers here go ask their leaders wy they had to lag behind in terms of development and being enlightened. the south and west are far ahead of the north in this regard therefore it would only be sheer hypocrisy to claim otherwise.

Every dog knows the North is the face of poverty and underdevelopment in Nigeria.

North has highest rate of poverty- Report
On September 14, 2011 · In News
| 12:00 am

BY VICTORIA OJEME

ABUJA- A report Tuesday revealed that, in absolute poverty, the North East, North West and North Central has retained the poorest geo-political zones in Nigeria since 1985.

The index highlight states like, the North East consisting of Borno, Bauchi, Taraba Adamawa, with the highest incidence of poverty ranging between 54.9% to 72.2% followed by North West which consist of Katsina, Kano, Kaduna, Jigawa and the North Central consisting of Plateau, Benue, Nasarawa, Niger and Kwara.

Prof Mohammed Ladan, expert in security matters declared this in his paper at a public lecture on criminal justice system and the new security challenges in Nigeria, yesterday in Abuja.

He said: “By the index of 50.6%, Nigeria is the 3rd among 20 countries in the world with a widest gap between the rich and the poor, poverty in Nigeria is undoubtedly the face of the north”.

January 2011 statistics, out of this 70% are the majority rural poor that fall between the ages of 25-60. 70% of this particular population is within this age bracket. In a country where you have this particularly age bracket, it is a time bomb.

He also blamed the government for lack of care on the youth, “this is the fault of bad governance which is one of the key issues, because if we fail to address social economic, political injustices, unemployment and issue relating to education you create a time bomb and you allow the youth to become hopeless, frustrated and their energies are driven towards something else.

Security in the country is a collective responsibility the truth must be told, that is the only solution, he added.

In his speech, The Director General of the institute for peace and conflict Resolution, Dr Joseph Golwa said criminal justice system must be able to punish criminals and terrorist who have perfected the art of using bombs to kill innocent people at will.

According to him, other issues such as the number of pre-trial detainees and the inordinate length of pre-trial detention, and time it takes to conclude criminal cases, the non-effectiveness of the penal system’s stated objective of rehabilitation and reform of the prisoner which new laws do we need to handle crimes in conflict/violence situations, and or which old laws should Nigeria review.

Our goal is to pursue and enthrone a culture of peace, tolerance and development in our national life, with the support and collaboration of UNDP

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/09/north-has-highest-rate-of-poverty-report/