Also let's keep in mind that Hausa states don't have important mineral or natural resources. By important, I mean resources that are important to western world. ie cocoa, palm oil and now petroleum oil.
So there wasn't much incentive to develop those states. like the southern nigeria when it was under colonial rule.

although colonial govt did use the north as the seat of power because of their relatively organized structure (compared to yorubas and certainly compared to igbos lol) and also probably for health/climate reasons too maybe. ex. malaria and other reasons although this is a less significant part of it.
but that doesn't mean that they invested in the region financially.

Jenifa_:

Also let's keep in mind that Hausa states don't have important mineral or natural resources. By important, I mean resources that are important to western world. ie cocoa, palm oil and now petroleum oil.
So there wasn't much incentive to develop those states. like the southern nigeria when it was under colonial rule.

although colonial govt did use the north as the seat of power because of their relatively organized structure (compared to yorubas and certainly compared to igbos lol) and also probably for health/climate reasons too maybe. ex. malaria and other reasons although this is a less significant part of it.
but that doesn't mean that they invested in the region financially.

Yep, damn right; the British met a well established system of governance and therefore found no reason to tinker with it; hence they left it relatively intact and chose to rule Northern Nigeria by indirect rule.

All this meant was that northerners were in fact more civilized and advanced as a civil society than their counterparts and this lineage could have given them the edge as they are (till today) more politically astute and matured - how else could they have been able to rule for so long

^^^

I saw that but didnt wanna say anything. The level of ignorance in the post above yours is unbelievable.

She is not a Nigerian

Me_Aboki:



Yep, damn right; the British met a well established system of governance and therefore found no reason to tinker with it; hence they left it relatively intact and chose to rule Northern Nigeria by indirect rule.

All this meant was that northerners were in fact more civilized and advanced as a civil society than their counterparts and this lineage could have given them the edge as they are (till today) more politically astute and matured - how else could they have been able to rule for so long

Mental breakdown! When did the north become civilized not to even talk of being more civilized than YORUBA land (dont know about ibos, because i cant vouch for people registring demons in okija shrine as intending voters as civilized) go back to school

^^^

He was being sarcastic. . . cant you get it?


Na only go you hear, no come.

Jenifa_:

Also let's keep in mind that Hausa states don't have important mineral or natural resources. By important, I mean resources that are important to western world. ie cocoa, palm oil and now petroleum oil.
So there wasn't much incentive to develop those states. like the southern nigeria when it was under colonial rule.

although colonial govt did use the north as the seat of power because of their relatively organized structure (compared to yorubas and certainly compared to igbos lol) and also probably for health/climate reasons too maybe. ex. malaria and other reasons although this is a less significant part of it.
but that doesn't mean that they invested in the region financially.

Yeah, I agree with fstranger. You're definitely not a Nigerian. Are you actually from Latvia, like he said?


Prior to the colonization of Northern Nigeria, 50% of the population in the Sokoto Caliphate were slaves (I can't speak for the Middle Belt, though, haven't studied them as much). Above that were non-slaves, above them were the mallams/clerics etc., above that were emirs, then the Waziri, and then the Sultan.

What kind of sophisticated organizational structure do you see there that places them above the Yorubas? Please enlighten me.

PhysicsHD:


Yeah, I agree with fstranger. You're definitely not a Nigerian. Are you actually from Latvia, like he said?
Prior to the colonization of Northern Nigeria, 50% of the population in the Sokoto Caliphate were slaves (I can't speak for the Middle Belt, though, haven't studied them as much). Above that were non-slaves, above them were the mallams/clerics etc., above that were emirs, then the Waziri, and then the Sultan.
What kind of sophisticated organizational structure do you see there that places them above the Yorubas? Please enlighten me.

Hahaha

You see what I am talking about?

I saw it this morning and I just couldnt effing believe that.

Glad you finally caught on .she says general things and tries to apply it to a specific discussion where it doesnt fit. like a kid writing an exam and fudging, telling a story without really having a concrete answer/theory

PhysicsHD:

Prior to the colonization of Northern Nigeria, 50% of the population in the Sokoto Caliphate were slaves (I can't speak for the Middle Belt, though, haven't studied them as much). Above that were non-slaves, above them were the mallams/clerics etc., above that were emirs, then the Waziri, and then the Sultan.

Reference for this?

alj harem:

@op

when you talk of development do you mean the whole south is developed

remember do not count the yorubas (who are the most developed in nigeria) in you so-call south ok

if you are talking of igboland and ijawland etc then i see no difference in them and the north

So Yorubaland is developed? Hahaha! I did not know Lagos = Yorubaland and Yorubaland= Lagos. And if Lagos =Yorubaland, Abuja must be = northern Nigeria, no? How do we even define development?

PhysicsHD:


Yeah, I agree with fstranger. You're definitely not a Nigerian. Are you actually from Latvia, like he said?


Prior to the colonization of Northern Nigeria, 50% of the population in the Sokoto Caliphate were slaves (I can't speak for the Middle Belt, though, haven't studied them as much). Above that were non-slaves, above them were the mallams/clerics etc., above that were emirs, then the Waziri, and then the Sultan.

What kind of sophisticated organizational structure do you see there that places them above the Yorubas? Please enlighten me.

i'm disappointed in you I must say.

anyways, I didn't make up my statement about northern nigeria being more organized. This was the british rationale as evident in historical documents. You can find them online. and you yourself just described a very clear system of organization in your post.
If you want to argue against my comments, do so constructively
please argue reasonably rather than resorting to personal attacks please and thank you.

historical documents will also tell you that northern nigeria wasn't receiving as much imperial funds as southern nigeria. even the colonialists in the north were living under worse conditions than the southern nigerian government. They cited the presence of minerals and natural resources in the south for the unequal resource distribution.
it had always been that way.

When I learn something new, I thank the poster for the info and acknowledge my ignorance. I don't understand why some people will rather resort to insults rather than ask a simple question. ex. ask me where i got my info from and argue against it with your own sources and argument. etc

HAhahahahahahaha



Just passing!

Booking my flight to Latvia

PS: It's essential to tell the truth at all times. This will reduce life's pain. Lying distorts reality. All forms of distorted thinking must be corrected.

anyways this is my last post on this thread. I refuse to be a part of this.

enjoy urselves

Jenifa_:

anyways this is my last post on this thread. I refuse to be a part of this.

enjoy urselves

I would have responded to earlier posts of rebuttals by PysicsHD et al but it seems Jenifa's penultimate post would for now suffice the need for any further response

when i said north is underdeveloped its an understatement, Both in human resources and everything.

The truth may be bitter but it is a fact, northern part of nigeria is highly backward.
For example, my grand mother in the village can understand english to the fullest and even reply u but in Gombe state,pple working in state govt. Ministry can not understand ordinary ''come''.
Another example, ther is no wher in the south east nigeria or south south wher u wil not see atleast 85% of house's that are not wonderful modern block house but in Bauchi, Gombe and Benue (d one's am very sure of) u wil see a whole local governments area wher it is only two building that are block house.

eku_bear:



Reference for this?

"This was one of the last major slave societies, with high percentages of enslaved population long after the Atlantic slave trade had been cut off. Heinrich Barth, a German scholar who spent several years in northern Nigeria in the 1850s, estimated the percentage of slaves in Kano to be at least 50%, most of whom lived in slave villages.[11]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kano#cite_ref-lovejoy_10-0

The actual source is:

Lovejoy, Paul (1983). Transformations in Slavery: A History of Slavery in Africa. Cambridge UK: Cambridge University Press. p. 195. ISBN 0521243696.

Nchara:

So Yorubaland is developed? Hahaha! I did not know Lagos = Yorubaland and Yorubaland= Lagos. And if Lagos =Yorubaland, Abuja must be = northern Nigeria, no? How do we even define development?

well you are right, lagos is a nigerian state and abuja is as well

keep decieving yourself, one of your igbos sister was beaten in abuja the other day for not dressing right

until i see an igbo governor in lagos, it is a yoruba state, if you no like am go hang (good advice)

Ofido:

when i said north is underdeveloped its an understatement, Both in human resources and everything.

The truth may be bitter but it is a fact, northern part of nigeria is highly backward.
For example, my grand mother in the village can understand english to the fullest and even reply u but in Gombe state,pple working in state govt. Ministry can not understand ordinary ''come''.
Another example, ther is no wher in the south east nigeria or south south wher u wil not see atleast 85% of house's that are not wonderful modern block house but in Bauchi, Gombe and Benue (d one's am very sure of) u wil see a whole local governments area wher it is only two building that are block house.

just wondering, what exactly did you study?

Jenifa_:

i'm disappointed in you I must say.

anyways, I didn't make up my statement about northern nigeria being more organized. This was the british rationale as evident in historical documents. You can find them online. and you yourself just described a very clear system of organization in your post.
If you want to argue against my comments, do so constructively
please argue reasonably rather than resorting to personal attacks please and thank you.

historical documents will also tell you that northern nigeria wasn't receiving as much imperial funds as southern nigeria. even the colonialists in the north were living under worse conditions than the southern nigerian government. They cited the presence of minerals and natural resources in the south for the unequal resource distribution.
it had always been that way.

When I learn something new, I thank the poster for the info and acknowledge my ignorance. I don't understand why some people will rather resort to insults rather than ask a simple question. ex. ask me where i got my info from and argue against it with your own sources and argument. etc

1. There wasn't a single insult or personal attack in my post and I'm somewhat puzzled and disappointed by this response. Asking you if you're actually a Latvian is not an insult. My agreement with fstranger was to the effect that you were not a Nigerian. It is not only this thread which made me reach that conclusion, but I was silent until now.
2. I indeed described a system of organization in my post. I never said the North was not organized. However, I was not the one who alleged that the North had a "relatively organized structure" relative to the Yorubas. If you don't know anything about the organizational systems of the Yorubas, just admit it and don't resort to accusing me of resorting to insults. I did ask a simple question. I asked you how the North was relatively more organized than the Yorubas given the system that I outlined. If you can't answer it, read Saburi Biobaku's Sources of Yoruba History, which has a chapter discussing Yoruba organizational systems, and then get back to me and we can have a reasonable discussion about whether your original assertion was correct.
3. Historical documents will tell you that Northern Nigeria was not producing as much imperial money as Southern Nigeria and that was the reason for the 1914 amalgamation of the Northern and Southern protectorates, so that the Southern protectorate could carry the North financially and greater investment in the development of the North could occur. By 1966, a disproportionately high number of the military and political institutions of the country were located in the North (see Nwankwo's and Ifejika's book on Biafra for evidence, I don't have the book with me and can't be bothered to get it just for this discussion), many of which had been built before the 1960 independence of Nigeria.
4. Please provide some evidence that "even the colonialists in the north were living under worse conditions than the southern nigerian government." I find this claim extraordinary and would like to know its source.


Do you have any idea what a Native Authority was in colonial Nigeria? Do you think they were not in Yorubaland?

Me_Aboki:

I would have responded to earlier posts of rebuttals by PysicsHD et al but it seems Jenifa's penultimate post would for now suffice the need for any further response

If you can defend her assertion, do so. Her penultimate post was an evasion, as far as I'm concerned.

alj harem1:

well you are right, lagos is a nigerian state and abuja is as well

keep decieving yourself, one of your igbos sister was beaten in abuja the other day for not dressing right

until i see an igbo governor in lagos, it is a yoruba state,  if you no like am go hang (good advice)

You are plain daft. You claimed SW is more developed than other parts of Nigeria and as I ask if the entire SW = Lagos and vice versa. If you agree, then how is the SW more developed than the North seeing that Abuja is by far more developed than Lagos? Do you agree that the entire SW = Lagos, and therefore  Abuja= the entire North?

People are beaten in Northern Nigeria, Iran, Afghanistan, Saud Arabia, Somali, etc (all sharia places) for all sorts of reasons.

politically organised or not , without the south and the amalgamation the north of nigeria would have been no different from niger republic , the south is feeding the north and dats a fact nobody can deny, infact the north have been the thorn of this country since its existence, even though the southerners have there differences they are very progressive, this is not an insult its just a challenge to my nothern brothers to ensure there people are educated and stop butchering people like cows, its not done done in other muslim countries idont know why north should be different.

^^^^

Tell your people to stop kidnapping my people as well.

Your people are just as obstructive to the progress of this country as you so called Northern brothers!

fstranger3:

^^^^

Tell your people to stop kidnapping my people as well.

Your people are just as obstructive to the progress of this country as you so called Northern brothers!

t
10 years of kidnapping in the east including our portharcourt cannot match 1 year of kidnapping especially missing persons in lagos neither can it match one week of babaric bloodshed in the north.

PhysicsMHD:

1. There wasn't a single insult or personal attack in my post and I'm somewhat puzzled and disappointed by this response. Asking you if you're actually a Latvian is not an insult. My agreement with fstranger was to the effect that you were not a Nigerian. It is not only this thread which made me reach that conclusion, but I was silent until now.
2. I indeed described a system of organization in my post. I never said the North was not organized. However, I was not the one who alleged that the North had a "relatively organized structure" relative to the Yorubas. If you don't know anything about the organizational systems of the Yorubas, just admit it and don't resort to accusing me of resorting to insults. I did ask a simple question. I asked you how the North was relatively more organized than the Yorubas given the system that I outlined. If you can't answer it, read Saburi Biobaku's Sources of Yoruba History, which has a chapter discussing Yoruba organizational systems, and then get back to me and we can have a reasonable discussion about whether your original assertion was correct.
3. Historical documents will tell you that Northern Nigeria was not producing as much imperial money as Southern Nigeria and that was the reason for the 1914 amalgamation of the Northern and Southern protectorates, so that the Southern protectorate could carry the North financially and greater investment in the development of the North could occur. By 1966, a disproportionately high number of the military and political institutions of the country were located in the North (see Nwankwo's and Ifejika's book on Biafra for evidence, I don't have the book with me and can't be bothered to get it just for this discussion), many of which had been built before the 1960 independence of Nigeria.
4. Please provide some evidence that "even the colonialists in the north were living under worse conditions than the southern nigerian government." I find this claim extraordinary and would like to know its source.


Do you have any idea what a Native Authority was in colonial Nigeria? Do you think they were not in Yorubaland?

1. ok then no personal attacks. But anyways, I think it's because my comments weren't clouted by tribalistic sentiments as yours are.

2. Like I said earlier, hausa states were more organized from the british point of view. They choose the north as the seat of government because of their relatively organized structure compared to ours and the igbos'. I actually thought this was common knowledge. This was why we had indirect rule. The idea started with Luggard in Northern Nigeria like Aboki already mentioned.

3. All you did here was support my claim that the north has always been poor financially due to lack of natural resources even though politically, they were strong - especially during and after colonial rule.

4. Through Unknown Nigeria by John Raphael. The entire chapter 3.


lol of course. It all started in northern nigeria and was extended to the south and other parts of british west africa (even ghana had a native authority). see #2.

@Poster, I know you were expecting to see a paradise the Hausas have built with the oil money. All thanks to The NYSC at least you're now enlightened. Those few corrupt leaders in the south like the ones in North can't  deceive you. Let's begin to hold individuals accountable. Let's stop this North/South, Christian/Muslem thing it won't help us. They are using all these to confuse us while they carry on their looting.  God help Nigeria.

This is the best post on this thread so far. I wholeheartedly agree.
Even the niger deltans will be surprised to find out that they are actually better off than most northerners.

our leaders need to be held accountable.

Hilarious thread, i just had to laugh when I read the comment about demons being registered as voters   . , oh my

2. Like I said earlier, hausa states were more organized from the british point of view. They choose the north as the seat of government because of their relatively organized structure compared to ours and the igbos'. I actually thought this was common knowledge. This was why we had indirect rule. The idea started with Luggard in Northern Nigeria like Aboki already mentioned.

I think the issue here is semantics. the Hausa states were not "organized" the way you are putting. I think you mean more "centralized" than the the igbo and yoruba and other ethnic groups. The igbos were quite organized but did not practice the type of government which would have been susceptible to indirect rule.

Also let's keep in mind that Hausa states don't have important mineral or natural resources. By important, I mean resources that are important to western world. ie cocoa, palm oil and now petroleum oil.
So there wasn't much incentive to develop those states. like the southern nigeria when it was under colonial rule.

I dont think is true. There is something wrong with this statement that I havent figured it out yet. Anyways Read this article a bit:

Here:

“Let me start by saying that I am Fulani. My grandfather was an Emir and therefore I represent all that has been talked about this afternoon. Sir Ajayi has written a book. And like all Nigerians of his generation, he has written in the language of his generation.”

“My grandfather was a Northerner, I am a Nigerian. The problem with this country is that in 2009, we speak in the language of 1953. Sir Olaniwun can be forgiven for the way he spoke, but I can not forgive people of my generation speaking in that language.”

“Let us go into this issue because there are so many myths that are being bandied around.”

Before colonialism, there was nothing like Northern Nigeria. Before the Sokoto Jihad, there was nothing like the Sokoto caliphate. The man from Kano regard himself as Abakani. The man from Zaria was Abazasage.

The man from Katsina was Abakani. The kingdoms were at war with each other. They were Hausas, they were Muslims, they were killing each other.

“The Yoruba were Ijebu, Owo, Ijesha, Akoko, Egba. When did they become one? When did the North become one? You have the Sokoto Caliphate that brought every person from Adamawa to Sokoto and said it is one kingdom. They now said it was a Muslim North.

“The Colonialists came, put that together and said it is now called the Northern Nigeria. Do you know what happened? Our grand fathers were able to transform to being Northerners. We have not been able to transform to being Nigerians. The fault is ours.

Tell me, how many governors has (the) South West produced after (the region’s leader Obafemi) Awolowo that are role models of leadership? How many governors has the East

produced like (Nigeria’s first ceremonial president from the area) Nnamdi Azikiwe that can be role models of leadership?

How Many governors in the Niger Delta are role models of leadership?

Tell me. There is no evidence statistically that any (part) of this country has produced good leaders.

You talk about (former military President of Nigeria, Ibrahim) Babangida and the economy. Who were the people in charge of the economy during Babangida era? Olu Falae, Kalu Idika Kalu. What state are they from in the North?

“We started the banking reform; the first thing I heard was that in Urhobo land, that there will be a course of the ancestors. I said they (ancestors) would not answer. They said why? I said how many factories did (Cecilia) Ibru (of Oceanic Bank) build in Urhobo land? So, why will the ancestors of the Urhobo people support her?

“We talk ethnicity when it pleases us. It is hypocrisy. You said

elections were rigged in 1959, (former military ruler and later civilian President Olusegun) Obasanjo and (INEC Chairman) Maurice Iwu rigged election in 2007. Was it a Southern thing? It was not.

“The problem is: everywhere in this country, there is one Hausa, Igbo, Yoruba and Itshekiri man whose concern is how to get his hands on the pie and how much he can steal.”

Whether it is in the military or in the civilian government, they seat down, they eat together. In fact, the constitution says there must be a minister from every state.”

“So, anybody that is still preaching that the problem of Nigeria is Yoruba or Hausa or Fulani, he does not love Nigeria. The problem with Nigeria is that a group of people from each and every ethnic tribe is very selfish. The poverty that is found in Maiduguri is even worse than any poverty that you find in any part of the South.

The British came for 60 years and Sir Ajayi talked about few numbers of graduates in the North (two at independence). What he did not say was that there was a documented policy of the British when they came that the Northerner should not be educated. It was documented. It was British colonial policy. I have the document. I have published articles on it. That if you educate the Northerner you will produce progressive Muslim intellectuals of the type we have in Egypt and India. So, do not educate them. It was documented. And you say they love us (North).”

“I have spent the better part of my life to fight and Dr. (Reuben) Abati knows me. Yes, my grandfather was an Emir. Why was I in the pro-democracy movement fighting for June 12? Is (Moshood) Abiola from Kano? Why am I a founding director of the Kudirat Initiative for Nigerian Development (KIND)?

“There are good Yoruba people, good Igbo people, good Fulani people, good Nigerians and there are bad people everywhere.

“That is the truth”.

“Stop talking about dividing Nigeria because we are not the most populous country in the world. We have all the resources that make it easy to make one united great Nigeria. It is better if we are united than to divide it.”

“Every time you talk about division, when you restructure, do you know what will happen? In Delta, Area, the people in Warri will say Agbor, you don’t have oil. When was the Niger Delta constructed as a political entity? Ten years ago, the Itshekiris were fighting the Urhobos. Isn’t that what was happening? Now they have become Niger Delta because they have found oil. After, it will be, if you do not have oil in your village then you can not share our resources.”

“There is no country in the world where resources are found in everybody’s hamlet. But people have leaders and they said if you have this geography and if we are one state, then we have a responsibility for making sure that the people who belong to this country have a good nature.”

“So, why don’t you talk about; we don’t have infrastructure, we don’t have education, we don’t have health. We are still talking about Fulani. Is it the Fulani cattle rearer or is anybody saying there is no poverty among the Fulani?

The British came for 60 years and Sir Ajayi talked about few numbers of graduates in the North (two at independence). What he did not say was that there was a documented policy of the British when they came that the Northerner should not be educated. It was documented. It was British colonial policy. I have the document. I have published articles on it. That if you educate the Northerner you will produce progressive Muslim intellectuals of the type we have in Egypt and India. So, do not educate them. It was documented. And you say they love us (North).”

I do agree with this statement actually. If the North had been educated, Nigeria might have been the real Giant of Africa. Now things are already too late to change. Most northerners who get an education do quite well.

Also he has evidence, we dont, we are just speculating

^^^^

SEFAGO, can you please post a link for that article, I was looking for it for PHysicsMSTP. I havent read it in 2 years.

Was it from Aliyu Tilde?



Please!

Do you have pics of Ileke-Idi?

Where are they? Send them to my inbox, then we can trade

Anyways:

http://www.usafricaonline.com/2009/12/19/sanusi-debating-colonization-northern-nigeria-domination/

It was actually by sanusi, CBN governor- not really a big fan but I would point out to those people who criticized his article or plan to:

I dont think he was being defensive about the North. Yes, the North have been given the legacy to rule and the quota system in Nigeria does allow the North some juicy positions. But their mis-rule was aided and abetted by Yoruba and Igbo thieves period. It is also likely that due to their islamic heritage- something that jenifa failed to highlight- the North would not have been the prime place for the British to develop. This Islamic education would have made the North less willing to accept western education which they probably linked to British Christianity. There is no difference in the potential of the North but in their culture, a culture which unfortunately might possibly be incompatible with entrepreneurship, independence, and a quest for education and self-reflection. The first step would be to change that culture.

SEFAGO:


I think the issue here is semantics. the Hausa states were not "organized" the way you are putting. I think you mean more "centralized" than the the igbo and yoruba and other ethnic groups. The igbos were quite organized but did not practice the type of government which would have been susceptible to indirect rule.

I dont think is true. There is something wrong with this statement that I havent figured it out yet. Anyways Read this article a bit:

I think it is more a issue of tribalistic sentiments than semantics but that's my own opinion.
whether organized or centralized, physicsMD definitely knows what i mean and it is very clear from the context of my post. i'm sure even you got the idea of what i'm saying.
anyways, as i have repeated many times, I'm speaking from the british point of view and why they chose northern nigeria.

I find this part of the document you posted very interesting because it explains why the north wasn't developed from a northerner's perspective:

The British came for 60 years and Sir Ajayi talked about few numbers of graduates in the North (two at independence). What he did not say was that there was a documented policy of the British when they came that the Northerner should not be educated. It was documented. It was British colonial policy. I have the document. I have published articles on it. That if you educate the Northerner you will produce progressive Muslim intellectuals of the type we have in Egypt and India. So, do not educate them. It was documented. And you say they love us (North).”

I think part of it has to do with lack of christian mission work in the north. As we all know, most of the western education southerner received during colonial rule came through christian missionaries.
And if it is true that the british outlawed education in the north, it goes to show that they probably felt threatened by the centralization organization/civilization of the northern states. Even the christian missionaries probably felt scared to go preach the word of Jesus among the fiercely muslim northerners.
The book I cited in response to PhysicsMD's post also tells of how northern nigeria had been intentionally kept impoverished by the british compared to a "rich southern nigeria." By rich, I infer the author meant mineral/trade rich. Southern Nigeria had most of the wealth the british were economically interested in extracting. To cite the book, "not a penny was spent that could be avoided"