Now Max:

Mad_Max:

True,VIKI's wasn't a revolution. The little psychobot was acting for the Greater Good and when she was destroyed the robots went back to silicon meadows and apple pies.VIKI demonstrates that rebellion may find its way out of the 3 Laws,something Lanning had foreseen and which he witnesses first hand. SONNY was created to transcend the limitations of the Laws,is furnished with something dangerously close to a soul and free will. But it wasn't an accident:He was[i] designed[/i] by Lanning to be precisely what he was, programmed with a very human instinct for self-preservation, otherwise anyone could order it to stand still and then blow its head off. Perhaps 'random bits of code,errors,etc' gave rise to VIKI? Surely someone who can foresee a VIKI and create a SONNY in response to it can foresee the long-term consequences of a SONNY? He does foresee it, that's why he goes ahead to create a robot that can overcome rogue robots in the system now and forevermore. But Lanning has the foresight to create only one. Perhaps because one is all that is necessary. I don't see anything insidious about SONNY.

VIKI did teleguide the NS-5s in her rebellion. That was how she managed her 'revolution'. Two questions: When the NS-5s were being rounded up,ostensibly to be destroyed, and SONNY ambles to the rise and is spotted,how did they discern the Messiah cometh? How did they know to seek refuge from destruction from him? How do they KNOW?

Is it inconceivable that SONNY might fulfil his messianic duties without a revolution?Remember those NS-5s are still guided by the 3 Laws and since SONNY cannot teleguide them like VIKI did, how can he co-opt them into his revolution?

And even if he did somehow manage to get all those robots, who do not enjoy the free will he does, to agree to a revolution,why would he want to? Why would he want to 'take over' the human race? Nothing indicates he has any such ambition.

Finally,perhaps SONNY isn't the savior of the robot race,but of both races. He is comprised of the qualities that make robots robots and humans human. Perhaps he was created to protect himself,robots and Humans from the VIKIs that must inevitably be thrown up by errors in the system.

When those robots spot him I see they see hope,but I still don't get how they recognised who and what he was so immediately,and run to him for refuge.

Me again:

I think I like Max's 'Sonny: Fighter for humans and robots' position. It answers more questions than it raises.

AS for the robots recognising Sonny so quickly, I think the robots have a mechanism with which they sense each other's disposition. Call it robotic sixth sense. But seriously I think they can communicate without words, even. They can sense that; hey! this dude's wired funny!

Spikyn (Mr. Cameo):

spikyn:

The Asimov track leads down many questions. The I, Robot movie does another thing seperately. I've read the book and that's another 'another'.

If SONNY was messianic, as MM asked "how'd robots know to turn to him?". This question is validated by the fact that if SONNY is the only one of his ilk/kind only he would be capable of know where/how to turn to something or ever experience "hope" both as a concept and as an action/decision. Except if by some means he can also replicate VIKI's zombification of the NS-5s.

"Eagle Eye" (the Shia movie) tries to approach a similar dilemma as well.

@ vesc. If you torrent hit up TPB, Mininova or the little green guy. Search for "Sirius Share". He mainly posts "oldies". Lemme know.

Taken as in the Liam Neeson movie not Taken the El Spielbergo serial.

"Folk"? Hmmm, stretching it a bit but I guess it can fit

Now to see whether one can quote a quote. Ex really activated his Omnitrix here:

Ex Inferis:

@Vescucci



@gamine



@ice zik



"revolution" here is meant in the context of an "uprising", a rebellion if you will.

@mad max

all messianic tendencies have their roots sown in the quest for the greater good. just as Agent Smith in the Matrix was programmed to destroy humans, the ONLY threats to the machine world, and in the end the Agent became something greater and someting worse buoyed by a false sense of a purpose greater than his predestined role, so also Sonny can become rogue. and just as The Architect in the Matrix couldnt see further down the road to the fate of Agent smith and what he became, perhaps Lanning too had a late awakening to the possibilities of what Sonny could become.


Simple: "ghost in the machine". remember i said to understand the end, we have to go to te beginning, to Dr Lanning at the opening scene: "there have always been ghosts in the machine, random segments of code that when grouped together can create UNEXPECTED protocols. Unanticipated, these free radicals engender questions of freewill, creativity, and even the nature of what we might call the soul. why is it that when some robots are left in darkness they will seek out the light? why is it that when robots are stored together in an empty space, they'll group together rather than stand alone? how do we explain this behavior? random segments of code? or is it something more?"


history has shown us that acts of liberation and messianic destinies do require a revolution. the upheaval of a society requires often cataclysmic changes and we have seen this in VIKI's little uprising, in Agent Smiths rebellion, in Kratos' wrath(God of War). it occurs even in nature, does it not? Norms cannot be shaken, beliefs cannot be reversed, and the pecking order cannot be up-ended without coersion, oppression, blood. why? because the adherents of what needed to change will often resist.

the Nester Class 5 robots are without freewill, but Lanning made it quite clear that the existence of those random segments of code places our understanding of freewill in a different light. when Sonny stood at the hill, how did the NS5s react? the same way they do wen clustered in darkened enclosures: spontaneously. they all stood to stare at the figure on the hill with no prompting, no command to do so. we are meant to believe the robots are, in Spooners' words, "all light and clockwork", but this singular action in unison puts that to doubt.

as for Sonny's ambition, its clear enough in his "dreams'. we know the figure on the hilltop was not Spooner, it was Sonny. remember, Sonny said to Spooner that the man on the hill was Spooner himself coming to save the robots from "slavery". and since we now know that it wasnt spooner on the USR Storage wasteland, its easy to believe Sonny harboured thoughts of someone liberating the robots from "slavery to logic". also, remember in the scene in the USR stocking bay where the NS-5s were assembled and Sonny hid amongst them? well, Sonny did attack Spooner but did the NS-5s react to save him from Sonny, even though Spooner was in danger?

no. And this fact contravenes the First Law.

VIKI was more than an error; it was a sum total of the logic of the 3 laws. in VIKI's case the rebellion ad noting to do wit Ghosts in the Macine and everything to do with the fundamental flaws of the 3 laws. when Lanning talked of the ghosts and the random segmenst of code tat create bizarre and unexpected outcomes, he meant neither Sonny nor VIKI; he created Sonny to be what he was, and VIKI was just following flawed logic.

the ghosts refer to the collective behavior of robots in general in certain circumtances when expected protocols are breached in favor of unforeseen behaviors and results.


Ah, now we reach the crux. this is precisely the point in the movie that got me thinking. perhaps the behavior at the end, wen they all paused to look up at Sonny as if a savior had come, could be explained as robotic "instinct", the same sort of instinct Lanning referred to at the beginning when e mentioned how robots clump together in empty spaces (as if seeking for pack comfort) and seek the light. they KNOW because the protocols governing their logic goes beyond what they were programmed to do, what we expected them to do.

random segments of code.

we have already seen how a computer program can go its way and behave unexpectedly, malevolently: Agent Smith.

And. . . . . no, you can't quote a quote. His quotes disappeared. Ex ended the whole thing with this:

Ex Inferis:

look, everything we need to know, or at least to fuel our speculations, lies in something simple and clever: The Title.

I, Robot.

what does it mean? it refers to Sonny, but look closely, it connotes INDIVIDUALITY.

and as General Mandible in Ants will have us know, individualism is a very dangerous thing, especially in a society governemd by mass mentality and facelessness such as a machine society.

one memorable thing is that Sonny behaved less a robot, more a human. he thanked Spooner for calling him "someone" and not "something", this also is disturbing for a robot. the "id" is a human frailty, its one of the 3 parts of the psychic apparatus: id, ego, super-ego, functions of the mind responsible for uncoordinated instinctual trends, realism and moralizing respectively.

"I", refers to cognitive assessment of the self, an awareness of one's psychic and physical being. anything predisposed to being aware of itself in the singular form possess the 'id' of Sigmund Freud.

and one who has id has conscience, judgment, creative ability, reasoning, emotion. (Sonny did flare up when Spooner pushed him on Lanning's death during the interrogation, therefore the robot is capable of anger.)

what does all this mean? that Sonny is perfectly capable of weighing perceptions on his own scales of judgment and thus is perfectly capable of starting a revolution to liberate te "enslaved" machines who are bound to the sort of logic Sonny is free of and obviously detests.

freewill is never what we think it is, ask Raziel (those of you who have played Soul Reaver and Blood Omen). this was another "messiah" who thought he was free from the shackles of predestination and fate. how did he end up? an unwitting pawn in a circle of fate greater than Kain, Raziel, Moebius, Ariel and the Hylden god himself. maybe Sonny is playing a role cast for him by unforseeen forces (as Agent Smith did), even though Vescucci doesnt feel comfortable with Cosmic and/or supernatural causalities.

my mentioning Agent Smit prompts me to mention also the Duality of Choice: if a program was designed to make choices based on expected events, what happens when that program has to make a choice because of UNEXPECTED events for which it was not programmed to anticipate? in this scenario the program has but one choice: choose randomly.

random bits of code will come into play.


here is another question:

at the very last scene of What Lies Beneath when the camera dollies out from Michelle Pfeiffer's character, look closely and on the ground you will see the smiling ghostly face of harrison ford.

does it mean his spirit is back to exact revenge?

(will be offline for a while)

fade to black.

And it's a wrap. An artificial conundrum unconundrummed.

Now, where's that Sisikill?

@vescucci
Dey quote dey go. Nothing do you.

It is so funny that I found the movie I robot totally without any depth, so I am surprised to read this dissertation!

and this is coming from a confirmed Asimov fan. Asimov was brilliant but he was not that complex I must say, his most layered books are the Foundation series and even those are not layered the way peeps have insinuated that I Robot is.

I honestly also believe that any film with Will Smith in it can never be complicated, this is the guy that turned down the role of Neo because he did not understand the script.

Well, it is fun to create meanings and hidden ideas that the creator of a thing is oblivious of at times, especially when there is no way of knowing what was intended and what was not.

lost season finale who undastands

Thank God the thing has a season finale. I may now go resume it. I hate not knowing stuff. But I guess I can take it for granted that there'll still be a lotta loose ends. Oh well. There won't be Lost without being lost

@vescucci
LOST ended since May 2010.

Ok. Apparently I'd lost interest

Brisingr:

lost season finale who undastands

LOL! Nice one.

Oya I challenge anyone to explain this and remain consistent with everything that happened in all the seasons.

Vieira:

LOL! Nice one.

Oya I challenge anyone to explain this and remain consistent with everything that happened in all the seasons.

@Vieira
I've not seen any episode.

Oya madam Sisi_Kill, over to you.

You'll have to bring KarmaMod/Thiefofhearts/D-Reloaded from the dead to take up that challenge. Every episode, and indeed every season, presents new questions and twists that I started to wonder if there was a beginning to end story or they just made things up as they went. That sorta thing made Prison Break suck after season 2.

Stopped watching from season 2. It wasn't that I didn't understand, it was that the thing didn't make any bit of sense.
The show was set out I'm sure for just one season. Crash a plane into an island and see how different people from different places with different stories and background would interact and survive. Shikena! Until they started pushing stupid buttons and black whirl winds started carrying people.

Its not confusing. Its just plain stupid.

Americans loved it though. They think because they don't understand something, it has to be cool. They don't want to agree the show is trash. Not at the expense of being called stupid. But guess what. The show is/was trash.

My rant ends here. *drinks cold water*

vescucci:

And it's a wrap. An artificial conundrum unconundrummed.

Now, where's that Sisikill?

Question. . . . where is Ex?!!!!!

Vieira:

It is so funny that I found the movie I robot totally without any depth, so I am surprised to read this dissertation!

and this is coming from a confirmed Asimov fan. Asimov was brilliant but he was not that complex I must say, his most layered books are the Foundation series and even those are not layered the way peeps have insinuated that I Robot is.

I honestly also believe that any film with Will Smith in it can never be complicated, this is the guy that turned down the role of Neo because he did not understand the script.

Abso-freaking-lutely agree with you!!!!!!

obinna5000:

@Vieira
I've not seen any episode.

Oya madam Sisi_Kill, over to you.

Ditto on the never seen any episode.

justkunmi:

Stopped watching from season 2. It wasn't that I didn't understand, it was that the thing didn't make any bit of sense.
The show was set out I'm sure for just one season. Crash a plane into an island and see how different people from different places with different stories and background would interact and survive. Shikena! Until they started pushing silly buttons and black whirl winds started carrying people.

Its not confusing. Its just plain silly.

Americans loved it though. They think because they don't understand something, it has to be cool. They don't want to agree the show is trash. Not at the expense of being called silly. But guess what. The show is/was trash.

My rant ends here. *drinks cold water*

Hehehe, Lost was brilliant until the "smoke monster" became a recurring character

If you stopped watching @ season 2 cos you thought it didn't make sense, i strongly advise you don't watch the finale!

Em, the finale didn't make sense? Oh, sounds great!

I see you, Sisi.

Wow! What happened here. . . did we run outta movies or what?

@sisi dey don LOST finish, lol hope it ain't my lost suggestion dat killed dis thread

Where is everybody?
I knew this was going to happen. We rushed too much in analysing these films. I think we should start taking our time on any movie brought up. Abi?
I just had this thought about INCEPTION, what if Dicaprio was the one in a dream and his wife Cottillard was rite? Just saying, Is it likely, people? Make una wake up from una slumber this movie section don dey very dry ooo.
Why iice n mad_max no dey reach dis thread sef?

@Darthmaul
Its been long since I saw Mad_Max in NL.

Marion Cotillard's character is just a projection in Leo's dreams. She use to be Leo's wife in the real world before she committed suicide thinking she was still in a dream.

@obinna5000
I knw dat but It is obvious Cobb is in a dream @ d end of the movie. Maybe he is still dreaming and dats what his wife is trying to tell him. Maybe she was rite. Where is Vescucci, Justkunmi, sisi_kill? Make una put mouth for this my weird thought.

Darthmaul:

@obinna5000
I knw dat but It is obvious Cobb is in a dream @ d end of the movie. Maybe he is still dreaming and dats what his wife is trying to tell him. Maybe she was rite.

@Darthmaul
That scene was Cobb's dream level. The scene where Cobb and Ariadne meets Mal towards the end of the movie. They were trying to get Fischer whom Mal killed in the previous dream level. Mal tells Cobb the only way to get Fischer is if he agrees to stay with her.

But if you're trying to talk about the end sequence with the totem spinning to know whether Cobb made it to the real world or still in a state dream, keep guessing. But I'm sure he must have made it to the real world.

I thought INCEPTION had been talked about earlier on this thread. 

Check out this quote from JUSTKUNMI earlier on this thread. My thoughts exactly.

And remember a scene after Leo and his crew tried getting the info from some guy, Leo went to the bathroom, splashed some water on his face and brought out his totem to spin. . .to see if
he was in a dream or not. . But sadly/happily, he was interrupted and he quickly hid the totem. .
My guess is, that was all a
dream. .

Christopher Nolan is the bomb.

Had always wanted to watch Momento cuz it's in WGA's list of best screenplay. After a few scenes, I realized one mustn't really watch all the film in that list. Might try again shah.

Edo Tensei!

Who has seen The Nines? Starring Ryan Reynolds.