quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94944200]

I see. Well, that clarification was made, and I think that it was accepted. But we are all fellow believers and there is no need for a quarrel in this particular matter.

There’s no quarrel at all. Far from it. We all learn from one another. It's part of the growing process. The moment we cease to be teachable, we are no longer a disciple

However, others read what we post. Some are babes, some are agnostics. We must be very careful what we post so as not to mislead them, or make them even more confused.

Like someone once said, a Bible verse or sentence must not be given a life of its own. It derives its true meaning from the surrounding sentences.

The scholar must not give wings to Bible verses and make them fly somewhere.

“holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The foregoing is what we must adhere to.

Shalom.

quote author=Kobojunkie post=94913830]
I have! The letter Paul wrote to the Hebrews is only 8 chapters

So Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. That's a new one.

madegreatbygrace:




There’s no quarrel at all. Far from it. We all learn from one another. It's part of the growing process. The moment we cease to be teachable, we are no longer a disciple

However, others read what we post. Some are babes, some are agnostics. We must be very careful what we post so as not to mislead them, or make them even more confused.

Like someone once said, a Bible verse or sentence must not be given a life of its own. It derives its true meaning from the surrounding sentences.

The scholar must not give wings to Bible verses and make them fly somewhere.

“holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The foregoing is what we must adhere to.

Shalom.

I don't know about learning from one another. We are all responsible to submit to one pastor-teacher whom we have tested and proven to be reliable and learn from that person (1 Corinthians 4:15-16, cf. 2 Timothy 4:3-4). But we can certainly walk together and become better at understanding the things we learn from our pastor-teachers when we try to help each other without imposing our own will and understanding on others.

As I said before, I don't see that he did anything wrong, since he only posted a passage. Whatever he thought it meant, it was just a quote without an interpretation. My response was in order to forestall any misunderstanding or misconception of the passage for anyone who cares. I see nothing here to warrant the response that you have given thus far. Perhaps indeed he had the wrong ideas about the passage, but he didn't share those ideas, not before he and I started talking anyway. Perhaps it wasn't the clearest passage to post for the subject that he put forward, but the better response would have been a question rather than an assumption.

Still, I have great respect for any zeal displayed for God's Truth, so it is good that you stood up for the Truth. I only urge you to be a little more compassionate toward those who share in the Truth with you.

madegreatbygrace:




So Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. That's a new one.

It's a view that I (among others) share too, although I am surprised to hear that it only has 8 chapters. Perhaps someone reorganized it differently in some Bibles?

But what difference really does it make who wrote it?

davidinchrist:
Hebrews 10:26-27,31 KJV
For if we "sin wilfully" after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins,

[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Was Gehazi ever saved?

madegreatbygrace:
So Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. That's a new one.

It was his letter to the Hebrew followers of Jesus Christ.

Ihedinobi3:
It's a view that I (among others) share too, although I am surprised to hear that it only has 8 chapters. Perhaps someone reorganized it differently in some Bibles?
But what difference really does it make who wrote it?

What view? It was a letter that Paul wrote to the Hebrew believers in his day. And yes, it matters a great deal who wrote what. Because by examining the writing, you can better understand the person's journey and views as at the time of the writing. In Paul's case, reading through many of his letters, you find that hebrews definitely seemed tailored to a different audience than say, his other letters to the Corinthians, Galatians, Colossians or even the Philippians.

Kobojunkie:
What view? It was a letter that Paul wrote to the Hebrew believers in his day. And yes, it matters a great deal who wrote what. Because by examining the writing, you can better understand the person's journey and views as at the time of the writing. In Paul's case, reading through many of his letters, you find that hebrews definitely seemed tailored to a different audience than say, his other letters to the Corinthians, Galatians, Colossians or even the Philippians.

The view that the letter was written by Paul. As I said too, I was surprised to hear that it is only 8 chapters long. Was that an error on your part or is it just how the book is organized in your own Bible?

As for the importance of the identity of the author of different Scriptures, wherever we are given an author, I consider it necessary for us to know who it is. Wherever we are not, however, I accept that God has good reason for not providing the information. For example, we could certainly speculate about the identity of the author(s) of all of the unattributed psalms, but it is not guaranteed to be a fruitful endeavor. Rather, it is likely to cause trouble in our own walk with the Lord.

I hold the view that Paul wrote the letter to the Hebrews because it sounds like him to me and some of the details suggest to me that it was him. I think that what clues exist in the letter and elsewhere that point to him as the author are in the Bible deliberately and should be exploited to the full in order to gain every spiritual benefit available to us to in the Bible, but I don't believe that it is worth even a moment of debate. If someone else does not want to venture into those regions of Scripture, then it is not my place to force them to. I can use what I find there to benefit myself and them to the degree that they let me without tearing us apart.

quote author=Kobojunkie post=94985274] It was his letter to the Hebrew followers of Jesus Christ.

What is the proof?

quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94974444]

I don't know about learning from one another. We are all responsible to submit to one pastor-teacher whom we have tested and proven to be reliable and learn from that person (1 Corinthians 4:15-16, cf. 2 Timothy 4:3-4). But we can certainly walk together and become better at understanding the things we learn from our pastor-teachers when we try to help each other without imposing our own will and understanding on others.

As I said before, I don't see that he did anything wrong, since he only posted a passage. Whatever he thought it meant, it was just a quote without an interpretation. My response was in order to forestall any misunderstanding or misconception of the passage for anyone who cares. I see nothing here to warrant the response that you have given thus far. Perhaps indeed he had the wrong ideas about the passage, but he didn't share those ideas, not before he and I started talking anyway. Perhaps it wasn't the clearest passage to post for the subject that he put forward, but the better response would have been a question rather than an assumption.

Still, I have great respect for any zeal displayed for God's Truth, so it is good that you stood up for the Truth. I only urge you to be a little more compassionate toward those who share in the Truth with you.

Yes, we submit to one pastor and teacher but that doesn't mean we can't learn from someone outside of them. Whoever the teacher is, the Bible must always be the final judge.


Just yesterday, someone who has never been my teacher nor pastor mentioned something contrary to what I initially believed. Immediately I searched the scripture and did some word study, and realized the man was right and I had always been wrong.

And then, I'm in no way imposing my view or understanding on anyone. The fact still remains the right Scripture must be used to support a doctrine. Whether that doctrine is right or heretic is another matter entirely.

As to your claim that I made an assumption concerning the intention of the op, I would say it's only the op that can make such claim, not you.

madegreatbygrace:




Yes, we submit to one pastor and teacher but that doesn't mean we can't learn from someone outside of them. Whoever the teacher is, the Bible must always be the final judge.


Just yesterday, someone who has never been my teacher nor pastor mentioned something contrary to what I initially believed. Immediately I searched the scripture and did some word study, and realized the man was right and I had always been wrong.

And then, I'm in no way imposing my view or understanding on anyone. The fact still remains the right Scripture must be used to support a doctrine. Whether that doctrine is right or heretic is another matter entirely.

As to your claim that I made an assumption concerning the intention of the op, I would say it's only the op that can make such claim, not you.

I certainly agree that we should keep sensitive to the Bible to be sure that what we believe is true, but I warn everyone who will listen to me to limit the input that they take in on biblical interpretation. The pastor-teaching gift includes an ability to tolerate a greater degree of input than non-pastor-teachers can handle without harm done to their faith, so a person gifted as a pastor-teacher can take time to verify by independent study what they themselves have learned from their own pastor-teachers, but others without the gift would be wise to limit themselves to what they learn from a pastor-teacher whom they have proven by the Scriptures is reliable.

17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.
Hebrews 13:17 (NKJV)

As for using the right Scripture to support a doctrine, you are, of course, very right indeed. That is why I came on this thread myself. As I said, my concern is attacking fellow believers for errors that aren't that serious. Hebrews 10:26-27,31 is actually an excellent passage for demonstrating the error of the OSAS doctrine, but it suffers from very poor handling a great deal of the time. The phrase "sin wilfully" is often very badly misunderstood - and that is why the passage is not often the best to use, sometimes because of the audience and sometimes because of the teacher - that is why I decided to explain it to avoid any misunderstanding here.

As I said, since he did not actually offer an explanation of the passage, I think it is unfair to argue as though he had. The passage is not wrongly offered to prove that Salvation can be lost. It is only sometimes badly misunderstood. That is what I wanted to warn you about. The tack you took is the kind that ends in quarrels, and there was absolutely no reason for one here.

I don't see how it is only the OP who could make a claim about any imputations on your part to him about his intentions. You have been arguing as though he interpreted the passage to mean that sinning other than by rejecting faith in Jesus Christ is what the passage said. He didn't say that, and that is my point. It is unfair to attack him over an interpretation that he has not offered.

Finally, when I speak of imposing views on others, I am concerned about the direction of the arguments that believers (including myself, of course) make on all sorts of things. In many cases, the things that we argue about can be seen in far more ways than just the way that we do, that is, there is plenty enough room for dealing with things. For example, you may not be very comfortable with using this Hebrews passage to demonstrate the error of OSAS, but that does not mean that it is wrong to use it. There are others that you may find far easier and better to handle. But just as you find them so, others would find others easier to handle too. That is where you must exercise some charity toward your fellow believers. In so far as they are not sinning in some clear way in their public actions and words, and in so far as they do not violate the Scriptures in their teaching, it is wise to just let them be, even if you think that things could be done better. That is what loving one another and bearing with one another is about (Galatians 6:1-5; Romans 14:10).

Acehart:


Was Gehazi ever saved?

I know that Gehazi went after money and got leprosy; just as Judas went after the world from Jesus; Demas from Paul. As a close follower of a great man of God that he was, I'll say yes. However, I hope this question is not to establish some sort of argument. If so, please ignore this. Thanks.


2Tim.4.10 - for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica--Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.

davidinchrist:


I know that Gehazi went after money and got leprosy; just as Judas went after the world from Jesus; Demas from Paul. As a close follower of a great man of God that he was, I'll say yes. However, I hope this question is not to establish some sort of argument. If so, please ignore this. Thanks.


2Tim.4.10 - for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica--Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.

Hi. I asked about Gehazi alone cos his story is extensive. (The rest you listed aren’t and therefore not necessary). You said he was saved; was it because he was a ‘close follower’ of the man of God?

quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=94974484]

It's a view that I (among others) share too, although I am surprised to hear that it only has 8 chapters. Perhaps someone reorganized it differently in some Bibles?

But what difference really does it make who wrote it?

It makes a whole lot of difference to me; everything in the Bible does. It's one thing to share a view, it's another to make a categorical statement, without basis or proofs.

We must be careful of the little foxes and leaven- a situation where we see some things as important and some as not important. We may finally arrive at that point where everything doesn't make a difference. The goodness of God doesn't make a difference, new creation reality doesn't make a difference, even salvation through faith in Christ Jesus may eventually not make any difference.

When it comes to the writer of Hebrews, I have my views about it. I used to think it was Paul, but now I believe he wasn't the writer. Evidence?

1. No introduction. There was a way Paul would always declare his authorship of an Epistle in the Bible......

“Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This trend is customary of Paul, and he was consistent with this practice in all of his epistles.
If the book of Hebrews was an exceptional case, then there should be a proof to support that.


2. The writing style used by the writer of Hebrews is totally different from that found in Paul's epistles.

3. Lastly, let's consider this verse in the book of Hebrews:


“how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The writer States here that the doctrine of salvation was confirmed to them by those who heard Christ. But let's examine the words of Paul,


“But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:11-12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

What's he saying here ?

He didn't receive the Gospel from man, so it couldn't have been confirmed to him by those who heard Christ. The confirmation is the revelation he received from Jesus Christ. He heard it directly from Christ. The writer of Hebrews didn't hear it directly from Christ, but from men. On this basis, Paul is not the writer of Hebrew.

But then, I may be wrong and I may be right. Nevertheless, I've presented what I believe are strong arguments.

So if anyone is posting, let such come up with statements backed by scriptures and persuasive reasonings.

Imagine someone saying Judas and Gehazi we're saved simply because they followed Christ and a servant of God respectively. Such submission is not only misleading, it's also heretic. It means any man that follows a man of God is automatically saved!

Acehart:


Hi. I asked about Gehazi alone cos his story is extensive. (The rest you listed aren’t and therefore not necessary). You said he was saved; was it because he was a ‘close follower’ of the man of God?

Obviously, it's my guess. I honestly don't have deep details. But above all, whether or not he was saved, it doesn't change the great reality of the main subject here to me; without any atom of doubt. You and many others may disagree, it doesn't make any difference.

Thanks, goodbye.

davidinchrist:


Obviously, it's my guess. I honestly don't have deep details. But above all, whether or not he was saved, it doesn't change the great reality of the main subject here to me; without any atom of doubt. You and many others may disagree, it doesn't make any difference.

Thanks, goodbye.

Was Judas Iscariot saved before he betrayed Jesus?

madegreatbygrace:


It makes a whole lot of difference to me; everything in the Bible does. It's one thing to share a view, it's another to make a categorical statement, without basis or proofs.

We must be careful of the little foxes and leaven- a situation where we see some things as important and some as not important. We may finally arrive at that point where everything doesn't make a difference. The goodness of God doesn't make a difference, new creation reality doesn't make a difference, even salvation through faith in Christ Jesus may eventually not make any difference.

When it comes to the writer of Hebrews, I have my views about it. I used to think it was Paul, but now I believe he wasn't the writer. Evidence?

1. No introduction. There was a way Paul would always declare his authorship of an Epistle in the Bible......

“Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This trend is customary of Paul, and he was consistent with this practice in all of his epistles.
If the book of Hebrews was an exceptional case, then there should be a proof to support that.


2. The writing style used by the writer of Hebrews is totally different from that found in Paul's epistles.

3. Lastly, let's consider this verse in the book of Hebrews:


“how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The writer States here that the doctrine of salvation was confirmed to them by those who heard Christ. But let's examine the words of Paul,


“But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:11-12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

What's he saying here ?

He didn't receive the Gospel from man, so it couldn't have been confirmed to him by those who heard Christ. The confirmation is the revelation he received from Jesus Christ. He heard it directly from Christ. The writer of Hebrews didn't hear it directly from Christ, but from men. On this basis, Paul is not the writer of Hebrew.

But then, I may be wrong and I may be right. Nevertheless, I've presented what I believe are strong arguments.

So if anyone is posting, let such come up with statements backed by scriptures and persuasive reasonings.

Imagine someone saying Judas and Gehazi we're saved simply because they followed Christ and a servant of God respectively. Such submission is not only misleading, it's also heretic. It means any man that follows a man of God is automatically saved!

For what it is worth, I have tried to impress on you that being quarrelsome is something that I strongly discourage. I completely embrace zeal for the Truth. But I don't believe that the Truth is only whatever you insist that it is. So, if you insist on having everything your way, then I will certainly desist from speaking with you to avoid a quarrel.

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
Romans 14:1 (NKJV)

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
Galatians 5:14-15 (NKJV)

3 [endeavor] to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:3 (NKJV)

If you believe that Judas and Gehazi were saved, that may be true, but I don't see how believing that they weren't is any kind of heresy. If you think that believing just anything erroneous about the Bible is heresy, then you better be prepared to label yourself a heretic as well. We are not perfect. We don't always get it right. So, wisdom is to cut each other some slack. There are things that we ought not to get wrong, because if we get them wrong, they attack our faith in Christ, but there are other things which, while being important since they are part of God's Truth, are not as critical to our faith as other things. It is because such things exist that Paul said,

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
Philippians 3:15 (NKJV)

Even the mature among us can and do disagree on all manner of things, although they will not disagree on the most important things. That is not a problem. We can bear each other and walk together regardless. It is only those who fancy themselves to be somehow better than everybody who cannot bear with the failures and weaknesses of others:

3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
Philippians 2:3 (NKJV)

Not everything is worthy of debate and such "pushback." I see no bearing that the faith status of Judas and Gehazi has on anybody's faith, especially given Galatians 6:4. If they were saved, what really is that to you? If they weren't, what is it to you? Does it encourage you to be saved or not? It is certainly true that a skillful pastor-teacher can draw value for fellow believers out of a solid understanding of their stories in the Bible, but even so, why does anything about them matter enough to determine who is being heretical and who isn't?

Again, let me say that I enjoy discussing the Scriptures. I don't mind even debating positions on the Scriptures. But when someone just wants to show off how much better they are at the Scriptures than others, that is apt to lead to quarrels. So, if you want to encourage me and others on this thread with your own understanding of the Bible, by all means, write up what you have learned and let those who can engage you productively do so. But if all you're going to do is try to force your own way of seeing Scriptures down everybody's throat, beware that you do not bite and devour your own brothers in the Truth.

Regarding your arguments above,

1. The most important thing in the Bible is that we must believe in Jesus Christ, God Who became Man in order to die for our sins and who was raised from the dead for our justification, in order to be saved. Fact is, it doesn't matter what else you believe in the Bible if you don't believe this specific thing. You could believe that angels exist, just as the Bible says that they do, or that God created the world, or that Judas and Gehazi were saved, and it wouldn't do you one small whit of good. But if you believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even if you knew nothing else in the Bible, you have eternal life. That goes to show that there are varying degrees of importance to the doctrines of the Bible.

Spiritual maturity cannot be gained and increased without giving careful attention to everything that the Bible teaches in its entirety. So, the fact that some doctrines are more important than the other does not mean that we ought to dispense with anything at all that the Bible talks about. If God says anything (and, of course, we believe that everything in the Bible is something that God says), then that thing is important for us to know. But it is only by believing the things that are most critical first that we establish a foundation on which to properly build all the other things that the Bible has to teach.

So, making an issue of less important things especially where an important issue is at stake is only going to cost the believers involved spiritually. It is unwise, very unwise indeed.

2. About the authorship of Hebrews, as I said, I don't believe that that is something worth a lot of trouble, but I do believe that it important. I have always thought that Paul wrote Hebrews. Along the way, I saw arguments to the contrary as well as arguments for an agnostic position. I am convinced now that it was really Paul who wrote that letter because

a) he had trouble with Jewish believers, especially the church in Jerusalem (Acts 21:20-25), so it would have unnecessarily emotionally charged the reception of the letter if he identified himself as the writer;

b) I find it very hard to see how differently the writer writes here than in any of Paul's other letters - Paul tended to write long, dense letters, and Hebrews is just the same;

c) in Hebrews 2:3, Paul is being typical in avoiding making something of himself or his own revelations here (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:1-5), but even so "confirmed to us by those who heard Him" does not by any means preclude the idea that the writer is also one of "those who heard Him" - anyone who teaches well will tell you that their own teachings don't seem like their own work, what they say or write blesses them too, as if it came from some external source.

3. I know no compelling reason really to think that Gehazi was not saved, although I've never really thought about him. I think that he was. He sinned, it is true, but what believer doesn't? The Lord punished him for it with leprosy, it is true, but what believer does not suffer for sinning against the Lord? What I don't see is any evidence that he never believed or that he stopped believing in the God of his master Elisha.

As for Judas, the Lord Jesus Himself declared that he wasn't saved at all.

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
John 6:70 (NKJV)

Cheers, my friend.

madegreatbygrace:
What is the proof?

There really isn't proof that any of the other epistles were in fact written by Paul either. I mean so far as none were witnesses to the actual writing of the letters, we cannot claim to have proof. I simply choose to believe that Paul may indeed have written parts if not all of the letters.

Ihedinobi3:
The view that the letter was written by Paul. As I said too, I was surprised to hear that it is only 8 chapters long. Was that an error on your part or is it just how the book is organized in your own Bible?

As for the importance of the identity of the author of different Scriptures, wherever we are given an author, I consider it necessary for us to know who it is. Wherever we are not, however, I accept that God has good reason for not providing the information. For example, we could certainly speculate about the identity of the author(s) of all of the unattributed psalms, but it is not guaranteed to be a fruitful endeavor. Rather, it is likely to cause trouble in our own walk with the Lord.

I hold the view that Paul wrote the letter to the Hebrews because it sounds like him to me and some of the details suggest to me that it was him. I think that what clues exist in the letter and elsewhere that point to him as the author are in the Bible deliberately and should be exploited to the full in order to gain every spiritual benefit available to us to in the Bible, but I don't believe that it is worth even a moment of debate. If someone else does not want to venture into those regions of Scripture, then it is not my place to force them to. I can use what I find there to benefit myself and them to the degree that they let me without tearing us apart.

It is a letter so it is expected that it could have been a short one. All the books in the bible were originally written and preserved for centuries without chapters and verses.

I personally concede to not knowing for a fact whether Paul wrote the contents of the epistles attributed to Him, or not. I am of the mind that the letters were likely altered in all the time that has passed. And since they are supposedly Paul's opinions and not God's words, every opinion stated in the letters remains subject to validation against the very word of God(Only God's word is true).

madegreatbygrace:
So Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. That's a new one.

The letter to the Hebrews is attributed to Paul, and since I was never there to witness the actual writing of the letters, I can only say that it was likely him too.

But don't get me wrong now! Whether it was written by Paul or Barnabas, or even Bar-Jesus, it means little to me. What matters more than all that is the authenticity of the opinions stated in those letters. Do the opinions have much bearing on the truth of God or are they simply just that, opinions of another who supposedly walked with God almost 2000 years ago?

Kobojunkie:
It is a letter so it is expected that it could have been a short one. All the books in the bible were originally written and preserved for centuries without chapters and verses.

I personally concede to not knowing for a fact whether Paul wrote the contents of the epistles attributed to Him, or not. I am of the mind that the letters were likely altered in all the time that has passed. And since they are supposedly Paul's opinions and not God's words, every opinion stated in the letters remains subject to validation against the very word of God(Only God's word is true).

I asked because in my Bible and in every Bible I know, the letter is thirteen chapters long. I don't think that the fact that the chapters and verses in the Bible are a recent invention has anything to do with it. Apart from the Hebrew Bible, as far as I know, all bible versions split the text in the same way. The Message and The Amplified versions condense the text, but they don't completely do away with the convention. So, I don't quite see why your own Hebrews has 8 chapters rather than 13.

I think that this second paragraph of yours is one of the queer things that I've noted about you that makes me suppose that you're very likely a hobbyist rather than a Christian. I don't know any true believer in Jesus Christ the God-Man Who died for us who holds such a poor opinion of the Bible.

Ihedinobi3:
I asked because in my Bible and in every Bible I know, the letter is thirteen chapters long. I don't think that the fact that the chapters and verses in the Bible are a recent invention has anything to do with it. Apart from the Hebrew Bible, as far as I know, all bible versions split the text in the same way. The Message and The Amplified versions condense the text, but they don't completely do away with the convention. So, I don't quite see why your own Hebrews has 8 chapters rather than 13.

I think that this second paragraph of yours is one of the queer things that I've noted about you that makes me suppose that you're very likely a hobbyist rather than a Christian. I don't know any true believer in Jesus Christ the God-Man Who died for us who holds such a poor opinion of the Bible.

I didn't realize that I had made that mistake. Yes, there are 13 chapters to the book of Hebrews. But like I said the sectioning of even the letters written by the apostles( inclusion of chapters and verses) happened many many centuries after the contents were written.

I am not a "Christian", and I don't subscribe to the opinions of men. I do however subscribe to and follow the Word of God, Jesus Christ, and only He. Jesus Christ never commanded any of His followers to follow after the opinions of any other man. He told His followers that He is the way, the Truth, and the Life. He instructed that God and God alone be our only Father, Master, Teacher, Helper etc. Have to yourself no other god except God Himself.

Paul was just a man... with opinions, but still a man subject to the very laws of Jesus Christ, just like you and I, and every other person who pretends to be of Jesus Christ out there. To suggest that the words of Paul are true is to suggest that Paul was Jesus Christ in some form over your soul and that is antiChrist(Since Jesus Christ commanded against such setting up of others as masters over our existence).

Kobojunkie:
I didn't realize that I had made that mistake. Yes, there are 13 chapters to the book of Hebrews. But like I said the sectioning of even the letters written by the apostles( inclusion of chapters and verses) happened many many centuries after the contents were written.

I am not a "Christian", and I don't subscribe to the opinions of men. I do however subscribe to and follow the Word of God, Jesus Christ, and only He. Jesus Christ never commanded any of His followers to follow after the opinions of any other man. He told His followers that He is the way, the Truth, and the Life. He instructed that God and God alone be our only Father, Master, Teacher, Helper etc. Have to yourself no other god except God Himself.

Paul was just a man... with opinions, but still a man subject to the very laws of Jesus Christ, just like you and I, and every other person who pretends to be of Jesus Christ out there. To suggest that the words of Paul are true is to suggest that Paul was Jesus Christ in some form over your soul and that is antiChrist(Since Jesus Christ commanded against such setting up of others as masters over our existence).

As I said, the recency of the division of the Scriptures into chapters and verses has nothing to do with it. I was seeking to understand why you said what you said.

Well, that's that then. It seems to me that you have no real kinship with Christians then.

Cheers.

Ihedinobi3:
As I said, the recency of the division of the Scriptures into chapters and verses has nothing to do with it. I was seeking to understand why you said what you said.

Well, that's that then. It seems to me that you have no real kinship with Christians then.
Cheers.

You are right! I have no real kinship with anyone, except Jesus Christ. My one and only business in all of this is Jesus Christ and what He commands of me. Everything else, including the opinions of ordinary men, opinions not verified by the word of God Himself, is meaningless!

ublight:
if u deny eternal salvation, u deny Christ.

So what does Christ mean in Matthew 24 by "those that endure to the end shall be saved"? I'm just curious.

Ihedinobi3:


Hello.

I believe you're right that the OSAS doctrine is false and very dangerously so. It's a terrible doctrine.

12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
2 Timothy 2:12 (NIV)

The concern I have about the passage that you shared above is that it is often taken to mean that sin costs us our Salvation, but that too is false. Sinning does not take away our Salvation. Giving up our faith in Jesus is what does. And this latter is what Hebrews 10:26-27 is speaking of. The sin of unbelief is unforgivable (Matthew 12:31; John 3:18). Only by believing can we be saved (John 1:12; 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). If we stop believing, then we are no longer saved (John 3:18; 2 Timothy 2:12).

When we sin, we break fellowship with God and with fellow believers (1 John 1:6-7), but we do not lose our Salvation. If we confess our sin, we will be forgiven and restored to fellowship with God and with one another (1 John 1:7,9).

Also, when we sin, the Lord disciplines us for our sin, but He only does so because He considers us His children (Hebrews 12:5-11). Otherwise, He would not bother to discipline us (e.g. Psalm 73).

10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Hebrews 12:10-11 (NIV)

19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)

So, the Bible teaches both that Salvation can be lost and it is lost when we stop believing in Jesus Christ and that sin does not cost us our Salvation.

Finally, I'll add that it is, of course, important to not underestimate the effect of sin on faith. If we throw ourselves into a habit of sinning recklessly, we can eventually give up our faith in Jesus Christ as a result, because when we are disciplined by the Lord and harden our hearts against the discipline, we can certainly grow more and more rebellious against Him until we choose to stop believing so that we can sin as much as we want without having to deal with the pangs of conscience and other discipline that the Lord lays upon us.

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:13 (NKJV)

All you wrote up there just cleared some of my confusion about salvation. I was trying to explain the same points you raised to a sister in church just last Sunday in our Sunday School class. But you put it in a simple, straight to the point manner. God bless you bro. And may God increase His Wisdom in you in Jesus Name.

quote author=Kobojunkie post=95108416] The letter to the Hebrews is attributed to Paul, and since I was never there to witness the actual writing of the letters, I can only say that it was likely him too.

But don't get me wrong now! Whether it was written by Paul or Barnabas, or even Bar-Jesus, it means little to me. What matters more than all that is the authenticity of the opinions stated in those letters. Do the opinions have much bearing on the truth of God or are they simply just that, opinions of another who supposedly walked with God almost 2000 years ago?

Earlier in this thread, you posted this :



What view? It was a letter that Paul wrote to the Hebrew believers in his day. And yes, it matters a great deal who wrote what. Because by examining the writing, you can better understand the person's journey and views as at the time of the writing. In Paul's case, reading through many of his letters, you find that hebrews definitely seemed tailored to a different audience than say, his other letters to the Corinthians, Galatians, Colossians or even the Philippians.

Now we have another version of you :

But don't get me wrong now! Whether it was written by Paul or Barnabas, or even Bar-Jesus, it means little to me.

HedwigesMaduro:


All you wrote up there just cleared some of my confusion about salvation. I was trying to explain the same points you raised to a sister in church just last Sunday in our Sunday School class. But you put it in a simple, straight to the point manner. God bless you bro. And may God increase His Wisdom in you in Jesus Name.

Thank you for your kind words.

Kobojunkie:
You are right! I have no real kinship with anyone, except Jesus Christ. My one and only business in all of this is Jesus Christ and what He commands of me. Everything else, including the opinions of ordinary men, opinions not verified by the word of God Himself, is meaningless!

The trouble is that the name "Jesus Christ" is thrown around by all sorts of people and the idea is often that they refer to the same person. That is why I wanted clarification on your relationship to Christians. Since, you're not a Christian, you probably mean a different Jesus Christ than the Bible tells Christians about, so when you say that your only real kinship is to Jesus Christ, it may be good to clarify who you mean when you say that, so that Christians don't wrongly assume that you are one of them.

I think that your thinking is obviously erroneous. If you dismiss Paul's writings as merely his opinion, on what basis do you accept Matthew's, Luke's, or John's as reliable about what Jesus Himself said or even about His Existence?

It seems to me that in so far as you are the final arbiter of truth in this matter of what is truly God's Word, you are by definition the source of this "God's Word" that you believe. If that is so, I wouldn't want to be you at all.

quote author=HedwigesMaduro post=95118365]

So what does Christ mean in Matthew 24 by "those that endure to the end shall be saved"? I'm just curious.

My brother, to have a clear understanding of this, we'll have to read from the beginning of the chapter, and consequently bring the quoted verse into context.



“Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬





In Matt. 24: 3, the disciples asked Jesus three questions. “When will this happen?” referring to the Temple’s destruction, “What will be the sign of your coming?” referring to the 2nd Coming, “And of the End of the Age?” referring to the events leading up to the Kingdom Age.

In Matthew’s account there’s no answer to the first question, only to the last two. Luke began his account the same way as Matthew. The Luke account begins at Luke 21: 6

In Matthew 24: 13, Jesus says, ” But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”.

The question we need to ask ourselves is, who was Jesus referring to?

Obviously, He wasn't referring to believers because the Church would have been raptured at this time. He was referring to those that would be saved by works left behind after the rapture.


“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So this verse clearly teaches that some Gentiles will be saved during the great tribulation. Unlike the Church which is saved by grace through faith, these ones will be saved by their own works. This is the category of people Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24: 13.

Shalom!