madegreatbygrace:





My brother, to have a clear understanding of this, we'll have to read from the beginning of the chapter, and consequently bring the quoted verse into context.



“Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬





In Matt. 24: 3, the disciples asked Jesus three questions. “When will this happen?” referring to the Temple’s destruction, “What will be the sign of your coming?” referring to the 2nd Coming, “And of the End of the Age?” referring to the events leading up to the Kingdom Age.

In Matthew’s account there’s no answer to the first question, only to the last two. Luke began his account the same way as Matthew. The Luke account begins at Luke 21: 6

In Matthew 24: 13, Jesus says, ” But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”.

The question we need to ask ourselves is, who was Jesus referring to?

Obviously, He wasn't referring to believers because the Church would have been raptured at this time. He was referring to those that would be saved by works left behind after the rapture.


“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So this verse clearly teaches that some Gentiles will be saved during the great tribulation. Unlike the Church which is saved by grace through faith, these ones will be saved by their own works. This is the category of people Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24: 13.

Shalom!

Where does the Bible say that anybody will ever be saved by their own works?

This is what I read in the Bible myself:

12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12 (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)

And, as you mentioned in your edit, Revelation 7:13-14 is clear that it is by the blood of Jesus, that is, by faith in the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus that these believers who come out of the Tribulation are said to have been saved. So, your position flies in the face of Scripture.

Edited.

[quote author=Ihedinobi3 post=95129128]

Where does the Bible say that anybody will ever be saved by their own works?

This is what I read in the Bible myself:

12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12 (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)

And, as you mentioned in your edit, Revelation 7:13-14 is clear that it is by the blood of Jesus, that is, by faith in the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus that these believers who come out of the Tribulation are said to have been saved. So, your position flies in the face of Scripture.

Edited.

If you had asked me what being saved by works meant, then I would have explained to you instead of making an assumption. You're doing the same thing you accused me of. I'll not respond to you again.

Ihedinobi3:
The trouble is that the name "Jesus Christ" is thrown around by all sorts of people and the idea is often that they refer to the same person. That is why I wanted clarification on your relationship to Christians. Since, you're not a Christian, you probably mean a different Jesus Christ than the Bible tells Christians about, so when you say that your only real kinship is to Jesus Christ, it may be good to clarify who you mean when you say that, so that Christians don't wrongly assume that you are one of them.

I think that your thinking is obviously erroneous. If you dismiss Paul's writings as merely his opinion, on what basis do you accept Matthew's, Luke's, or John's as reliable about what Jesus Himself said or even about His Existence?

It seems to me that in so far as you are the final arbiter of truth in this matter of what is truly God's Word, you are by definition the source of this "God's Word" that you believe. If that is so, I wouldn't want to be you at all.

There is only one Jesus Christ known to history.... or at least written off in the Gospels, and fortunately, no one OWNs Him, since He came to the world and not just a sect or cult who call themselves "Christians."

You have no business seeking clarification of my business with Jesus Christ -- even Jesus Christ never asked you to seek any such "clarification" for He never commanded you to associate only with those who run your cult. By His example, we are to see that even He spent time -- ate and drank with sinners while He was on earth, not just with those of His disciples who believed in Him at any point. I am not certain what you seek to gain with your "clarification" there.
As for my position on the writings of Paul, it is simple, and I keep repeating it over and over but it seems it all keeps going over your heads on here for some reason. Jesus Christ said, "Man Shall not live by bread(food) alone but by every word that comes out of the MOUTH OF GOD" ... Paul's words did not come out of the mouth of God, no... they were Paul's opinions. The same applies as far as the other apostles and their epistles. However, the gospels, just like the prophets of old, present what we believe to be the very WORD OUT OF GOD's mouth and since God is God, and He is true, only His Word can be True in all of it. If you are going to trust God, and God only (as God Himself commanded of you), can you not trust that He is more than able to ensure the validity and veracity of His word as it reaches those who find it?

madegreatbygrace:
Earlier in this thread, you posted this :
What view? It was a letter that Paul wrote to the Hebrew believers in his day. And yes, it matters a great deal who wrote what. Because by examining the writing, you can better understand the person's journey and views as at the time of the writing. In Paul's case, reading through many of his letters, you find that hebrews definitely seemed tailored to a different audience than say, his other letters to the Corinthians, Galatians, Colossians or even the Philippians.
Now we have another version of you :

If you also paid close attention to the direction of the discussion, you would also note the reason.

It matters who wrote what as far as deciphering the content and the main message of the actual writer. But in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter because so far it is not the word of God Himself, it means nothing in the end unless it can be verified or validated against that which God Himself commanded i.e. if it cannot, it all remains nothing but the opinions of men which is meaningless.

Kobojunkie:
There is only one Jesus Christ known to history.... or at least written off in the Gospels, and fortunately, no one OWNs Him, since He came to the world and not just a sect or cult who call themselves "Christians."

You have no business seeking clarification of my business with Jesus Christ -- even Jesus Christ never asked you to seek any such "clarification" for He never commanded you to associate only with those who run your cult. By His example, we are to see that even He spent time -- ate and drank with sinners while He was on earth, not just with those of His disciples who believed in Him at any point. I am not certain what you seek to gain with your "clarification" there.
As for my position on the writings of Paul, it is simple, and I keep repeating it over and over but it seems it all keeps going over your heads on here for some reason. Jesus Christ said, "Man Shall not live by bread(food) alone but by every word that comes out of the MOUTH OF GOD" ... Paul's words did not come out of the mouth of God, no... they were Paul's opinions. The same applies as far as the other apostles and their epistles. However, the gospels, just like the prophets of old, present what we believe to be the very WORD OUT OF GOD's mouth and since God is God, and He is true, only His Word can be True in all of it. If you are going to trust God, and God only (as God Himself commanded of you), can you not trust that He is more than able to ensure the validity and veracity of His word as it reaches those who find it?

Well, this is what I read in the Bible:

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)

The bolded portion literally means to treat them as if they are unbelievers. These are Jesus's own words. So, I think that you are obviously wrong about what He teaches regarding association with people. Incidentally, it is the exact same teaching that Paul gives the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 5 --

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11 (NIV)

So, if someone claims association with the Jesus of the Bible and acts like an unbeliever and will not accept gentle correction or harsher rebuke, then we are to disassociate ourselves from them. It seems to me that it is the Christian's business then to be watchful about those who claim to share in Jesus Christ with us who are actually lying about it, and you seem to qualify as such a person. It also seems to me that you are obviously wrong about what indeed our relationship to people who claim to share in "our" Jesus Christ but who do not act in keeping with that claim should be.

As for Jesus being the same historically, I don't believe that that is true. There are different claims about who Jesus was, many of them contradictory. I see no reason to think that it is the same Jesus being spoken of in every case. The Jesus that Christians believe in is the one described by the Bible as being God Who became Man as well so that He could die for our sins. There are other Jesus's. Each one is claimed to be the one that the Bible speaks of, but then all those ideas and claims cannot all be the same person, can they? Only one of them can be right if any of them is right at all.

As for Jesus spending time with all sorts of people and not belonging to Christians, He did say --

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Matthew 13:11 (NIV)

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father —and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:14-16 (NIV)

He clearly calls the whole world to repent and believe the Gospel. He obviously died for the whole world. But He still discriminates between those who believe in and obey Him and those who don't. That seems considerably obvious to me.

As for Paul's words, no, I don't believe that your arguments go over my head at all, but --

A. I'm not sure what suggests to you that I have any problem trusting that God is able to preserve His Word. I don't see the bearing that that has on anything here. I have offered no opinions about the veracity of the Scriptures. I'm perfectly certain that they are all perfectly preserved; what I fail to see is your argument for how you know that the Old Testament and the Gospels are God's Word, while other writings are not. Is there some way that you know this? Or did you just make it up?

B. I do read the following in the Bible --

39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me
John 5:39 (NIV)

46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
John 5:46 (NIV)

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
John 16:12-15 (NIV)

26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14:26 (NIV)

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 9:15 (NIV)

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)

15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:15-16 (NIV)

6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations.
2 Corinthians 12:6-7 (NIV)

11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:11-12 (NIV)

That is,

1. The Lord Jesus stated unequivocally that all the Scriptures actually speak of Him. That is, it is all His Word. Just as the Torah, which was not written by Matthew or Mark or Luke or John, but by Moses more than a thousand years earlier, is still the Word of Christ (just as you said), so every other Scripture is about Jesus Christ.

2. After He would go to the Cross and resurrect, the Lord Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to complete the truth, that is, to show to His chosen messengers (or instruments) everything that we need to know in the Truth, and also help them to remember all that they had seen of and learned of Him so as to record those as well. This is what they would later write down in the New Testament to complete the Bible.

3. The Lord Jesus testified to Ananias that Paul was to be one of his special messengers who would carry His message to the Gentiles primarily, to the Gentile authorities, and to the people of Israel last. So, Paul was going to be one of those who would be entrusted with His message.

4. All Scripture comes straight from God. It is not brought about by any man's imagination. It is all God's very own thought.

5. Paul's writings are Scripture or else both Jesus and Peter were lying (may such a thought never stand).

6. Paul received great revelations of the truth from the Lord, which obviously accounts for both the largeness of his writings and the depth and complexity of them.

7. Paul claimed that his writings and teachings were not mere opinions of men, but rather God's very own message. This does agree with the testimony that the Lord made of him to Ananias.

So, I fear the Bible disagrees with you roundly.

Ihedinobi3:


Well, this is what I read in the Bible:

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)

The bolded portion literally means to treat them as if they are unbelievers. These are Jesus's own words. So, I think that you are obviously wrong about what He teaches regarding association with people. Incidentally, it is the exact same teaching that Paul gives the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 5 --

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11 (NIV)

So, if someone claims association with the Jesus of the Bible and acts like an unbeliever and will not accept gentle correction or harsher rebuke, then we are to disassociate ourselves from them. It seems to me that it is the Christian's business then to be watchful about those who claim to share in Jesus Christ with us who are actually lying about it, and you seem to qualify as such a person. It also seems to me that you are obviously wrong about what indeed our relationship to people who claim to share in "our" Jesus Christ but who do not act in keeping with that claim should be.

As for Jesus being the same historically, I don't believe that that is true. There are different claims about who Jesus was, many of them contradictory. I see no reason to think that it is the same Jesus being spoken of in every case. The Jesus that Christians believe in is the one described by the Bible as being God Who became Man as well so that He could die for our sins. There are other Jesus's. Each one is claimed to be the one that the Bible speaks of, but then all those ideas and claims cannot all be the same person, can they? Only one of them can be right if any of them is right at all.

As for Jesus spending time with all sorts of people and not belonging to Christians, He did say --

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Matthew 13:11 (NIV)

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father —and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:14-16 (NIV)

He clearly calls the whole world to repent and believe the Gospel. He obviously died for the whole world. But He still discriminates between those who believe in and obey Him and those who don't. That seems considerably obvious to me.

As for Paul's words, no, I don't believe that your arguments go over my head at all, but --

A. I'm not sure what suggests to you that I have any problem trusting that God is able to preserve His Word. I don't see the bearing that that has on anything here. I have offered no opinions about the veracity of the Scriptures. I'm perfectly certain that they are all perfectly preserved; what I fail to see is your argument for how you know that the Old Testament and the Gospels are God's Word, while other writings are not. Is there some way that you know this? Or did you just make it up?

B. I do read the following in the Bible --

39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me
John 5:39 (NIV)

46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
John 5:46 (NIV)

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
John 16:12-15 (NIV)

26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14:26 (NIV)

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 9:15 (NIV)

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)

15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:15-16 (NIV)

6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations.
2 Corinthians 12:6-7 (NIV)

11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:11-12 (NIV)

That is,

1. The Lord Jesus stated unequivocally that all the Scriptures actually speak of Him. That is, it is all His Word. Just as the Torah, which was not written by Matthew or Mark or Luke or John, but by Moses more than a thousand years earlier, is still the Word of Christ (just as you said), so every other Scripture is about Jesus Christ.

2. After He would go to the Cross and resurrect, the Lord Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to complete the truth, that is, to show to His chosen messengers (or instruments) everything that we need to know in the Truth, and also help them to remember all that they had seen of and learned of Him so as to record those as well. This is what they would later write down in the New Testament to complete the Bible.

3. The Lord Jesus testified to Ananias that Paul was to be one of his special messengers who would carry His message to the Gentiles primarily, to the Gentile authorities, and to the people of Israel last. So, Paul was going to be one of those who would be entrusted with His message.

4. All Scripture comes straight from God. It is not brought about by any man's imagination. It is all God's very own thought.

5. Paul's writings are Scripture or else both Jesus and Peter were lying (may such a thought never stand).

6. Paul received great revelations of the truth from the Lord, which obviously accounts for both the largeness of his writings and the depth and complexity of them.

7. Paul claimed that his writings and teachings were not mere opinions of men, but rather God's very own message. This does agree with the testimony that the Lord made of him to Ananias.

So, I fear the Bible disagrees with you roundly.

I honestly don't think you should bother with trying to sway me in any way with your ideas and assumptions about who belongs and who does not belong in your group.

I have made myself clear on where I stand as far as what you have assumed. If you do not like it, I am ok with that... That is how I trea everyone... Brothers and pagans alike. After all Jesus Christ said to love your neighbour and your enemy the same way you love your own self.

Kobojunkie:
I honestly don't think you should bother with trying to sway me in any way with your ideas and assumptions about who belongs and who does not belong in your group.

I have made myself clear on where I stand as far as what you have assumed. If you do not like it, I am ok with that... That is how I trea everyone... Brothers and pagans alike. After all Jesus Christ said to love your neighbour and your enemy the same way you love your own self.

Oh, never mind about what I like. I promise you I don't expect to sway you into anything, although I certainly wish that I could. What I hoped for at least was clarity that we don't belong in the same family.

It is always a dangerous thing to assume that a foe is a friend. We believers hope that everyone will be saved and we have been tasked to bring the message of salvation to everyone so that just as we have enjoyed the grace of God, they too can, but we are not to be naïve and assume that everyone wishes us well and will not try to lead us into throwing our eternal life in Christ Jesus away.

Much that you post on this forum ostensibly to hold a biblical position is actually antibiblical. Any believer who listens to you is almost certain to fall into apostasy. So you are most certainly an enemy of the faith of Jesus Christ, but you masquerade as a friend.

That is why I have answered you. I certainly hope for your salvation and your eternal good, but I don't expect that I can make that choice for you. The image of God that you possess gives you the right to choose whatever you please.

Ihedinobi3:


Oh, never mind about what I like. I promise you I don't expect to sway you into anything, although I certainly wish that I could. What I hoped for at least was clarity that we don't belong in the same family.

It is always a dangerous thing to assume that a foe is a friend. We believers hope that everyone will be saved and we have been tasked to bring the message of salvation to everyone so that just as we have enjoyed the grace of God, they too can, but we are not to be naïve and assume that everyone wishes us well and will not try to lead us into throwing our eternal life in Christ Jesus away.

Much that you post on this forum ostensibly to hold a biblical position is actually antibiblical. Any believer who listens to you is almost certain to fall into apostasy. So you are most certainly an enemy of the faith of Jesus Christ, but you masquerade as a friend.

That is why I have answered you. I certainly hope for your salvation and your eternal good, but I don't expect that I can make that choice for you. The image of God that you possess gives you the right to choose whatever you please.

I believe and follow Jesus Christ yet I don't hope that everyone will be saved. In fact, Jesus Christ made it all too clear that not everyone will be saved, let alone make it into Heaven. He did not mince messages there at all.

Everyone wishes you well? What are you talking about? What has what everyone does to do with the life of one who is a follower of Jesus Christ? What does it matter what anyone else thinks or believes? Jesus Christ never said to care about what everyone wishes of us... He instead said the focus should be on Him and Him alone

Anywho, you are free to believe what you want of my person since it is obviously IMPORTANT to you to clarify my stance.

Kobojunkie:


I believe and follow Jesus Christ yet I don't hope that everyone will be saved. In fact, Jesus Christ made it all too clear that not everyone will be saved, let alone make it into Heaven. He did not mince messages there at all.

Everyone wishes you well? What are you talking about? What has what everyone does to do with the life of one who is a follower of Jesus Christ? What does it matter what anyone else thinks or believes? Jesus Christ never said to care about what everyone wishes of us... He instead said the focus should be on Him and Him alone

Anywho, you are free to believe what you want of my person since it is obviously IMPORTANT to you to clarify my stance.

I think you misunderstood what you quoted. God knows that not everyone will be saved, but that does not mean that He doesn't want everyone to be. The Bible is clear too that He does --

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:16-17 (NKJV)

I am sure that you follow a Jesus Christ. I just don't believe that it is the one revealed in the Bible. But as you said, we don't need to argue or quarrel about it. You must believe what you are persuaded is true, not just whatever I recommend that you believe.

As for what I said, I'm not sure that I can be clearer than I was in my post.

Ihedinobi3:
I think you misunderstood what you quoted. God knows that not everyone will be saved, but that does not mean that He doesn't want everyone to be. The Bible is clear too that He does --

I think you should pay better attention to your Bible is what you need to do.
Through His teachings, and His telling of many parables about the Kingdom of God, Jesus Christ was clear that not all will be saved(have eternal life/saved from condemnation of death), and definitely not all those who are saved will be welcomed into Heaven in the end. Even when He was alive, He focused primary on those that God had given Him and not on those that God hadn't. By His words and examples, He made it clear that not all will indeed be saved, and not all those who are saved(believe in Him) will have a place in Heaven.

Ihedinobi3:
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:16-17 (NKJV)

I am sure that you follow a Jesus Christ. I just don't believe that it is the one revealed in the Bible. But as you said, we don't need to argue or quarrel about it. You must believe what you are persuaded is true, not just whatever I recommend that you believe.

As for what I said, I'm not sure that I can be clearer than I was in my post.

Next time, try to read the verses in the context they were provided in. John 16 - 23, tells of the gift of eternal life being the salvation from death and condemnation. Now, Salvation is for those who believe -- meaning there will be those who do not believe. For those who remain unbelievers, the grave will remain their end. Now, if you read further in the book of John, you would also learn that not all those who are saved unto eternal life will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven in the end. Those who believe but do not obey will, as taught in the parables, end up in Hell, while those who believe and Obey, will gain entry into the Kingdom of Heaven in the end.

There is a lot to be learned from following the teachings of Jesus Christ since He is, after all, the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE!

Kobojunkie:
I think you should pay better attention to your Bible is what you need to do.
Through His teachings, and His telling of many parables about the Kingdom of God, Jesus Christ was clear that not all will be saved(have eternal life/saved from condemnation of death), and definitely not all those who are saved will be welcomed into Heaven in the end. Even when He was alive, He focused primary on those that God had given Him and not on those that God hadn't. By His words and examples, He made it clear that not all will indeed be saved, and not all those who are saved(believe in Him) will have a place in Heaven.

Next time, try to read the verses in the context they were provided in. John 16 - 23, tells of the gift of eternal life being the salvation from death and condemnation. Now, Salvation is for those who believe -- meaning there will be those who do not believe. For those who remain unbelievers, the grave will remain their end. Now, if you read further in the book of John, you would also learn that not all those who are saved unto eternal life will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven in the end. Those who believe but do not obey will, as taught in the parables, end up in Hell, while those who believe and Obey, will gain entry into the Kingdom of Heaven in the end.

There is a lot to be learned from following the teachings of Jesus Christ since He is, after all, the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE!

I don't believe that we disagree on whether or not God says that not all will be saved. The Bible clearly teaches that it isn't everyone that will be saved, and I said as much. What I don't see the Bible teach anywhere is that God doesn't want everyone to be saved. That is patently false, and you are very wrong to say that He doesn't (John 3:16-17 posted earlier).

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (NIV)

23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:23 (NIV)

So, clearly, God does want everyone to be saved, but everyone has a free will, so everyone has to choose to be saved, and not everyone will make that choice.

As for John 3:16-17, I'm not sure what you are arguing against.

As for not everyone who is saved having a place in Heaven, as with pretty much everything you post on this platform claiming a biblical position, you are wrong here too. The Bible teaches no such thing.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
John 17:24 (NIV) (compare v.20 and John 6:29).

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
John 14:1-4 (NIV)

Since faith proves itself through action, that is, through doing what one believes to be true, I would say that there is not a single person who believes in Jesus Christ who does not obey Him. They may not be model believers, but they will have some mark of obedience in keeping with the degree of their faith in Him.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV)

Not a single person who believes in Jesus will be anywhere in eternity but where He Himself is. If that is Heaven, then they will definitely be in Heaven with Him. Not a single one of them will be in Hell.

I totally agree that there is a great deal to learn from the teachings of Jesus Christ, that is, from the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation, but I don't believe that you know the first thing about it. You don't even believe the Gospel, and that is the foundation of the Bible, so how on earth do you know any of the teachings in the Bible? Your words all over the forum prove a depth of ignorance and darkness in you that is terrifying to consider. So, what would you know about the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Ihedinobi3:
I don't believe that we disagree on whether or not God says that not all will be saved. The Bible clearly teaches that it isn't everyone that will be saved, and I said as much. What I don't see the Bible teach anywhere is that God doesn't want everyone to be saved. That is patently false, and you are very wrong to say that He doesn't (John 3:16-17 posted earlier).

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (NIV)

23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:23 (NIV)

So, clearly, God does want everyone to be saved, but everyone has a free will, so everyone has to choose to be saved, and not everyone will make that choice.

As for John 3:16-17, I'm not sure what you are arguing against.

As for not everyone who is saved having a place in Heaven, as with pretty much everything you post on this platform claiming a biblical position, you are wrong here too. The Bible teaches no such thing.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
John 17:24 (NIV) (compare v.20 and John 6:29).

Unfortunately, most of you tend to read that book with blinders on for some unknown reason.
Clearly, if God wanted to save everyone, He would have begun with Adam. Instead, God instituted a penalty for sins(return back to dust from where you were made) since the time of Adam, and since the fall of Adam, to this day, those who refuse/reject God, end their journey in the grave.

Also, as far as John 3 is concerned, I suggest you do what Jesus Christ commanded of you first -- become like a Child, dump/unknow everything you think you know of God, and begin anew, this time, allowing God Himself teach you about Himself. Apostle John was clear that the salvation specified in John 3 vs 16 -23 was salvation from the penalty of death for sinners(condemnation which began with Adam), nothing more. The gift of eternal life, acquired through belief in the person of Jesus Christ was a reversal of the pronouncement of death on sinners(unbelievers in this case).

Ihedinobi3:
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
John 14:1-4 (NIV)

Since faith proves itself through action, that is, through doing what one believes to be true, I would say that there is not a single person who believes in Jesus Christ who does not obey Him. They may not be model believers, but they will have some mark of obedience in keeping with the degree of their faith in Him.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV)

Not a single person who believes in Jesus will be anywhere in eternity but where He Himself is. If that is Heaven, then they will definitely be in Heaven with Him. Not a single one of them will be in Hell.

I totally agree that there is a great deal to learn from the teachings of Jesus Christ, that is, from the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation, but I don't believe that you know the first thing about it. You don't even believe the Gospel, and that is the foundation of the Bible, so how on earth do you know any of the teachings in the Bible? Your words all over the forum prove a depth of ignorance and darkness in you that is terrifying to consider. So, what would you know about the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Anyone, even Satan can obviously quote verses from the Bible to support just about any idea/doctrine/logic/lie you can think of, but the comprehension and clear understanding of what is written, in the context it was presented) is something entirely different.

Kobojunkie:
Unfortunately, most of you tend to read that book with blinders on for some unknown reason.
Clearly, if God wanted to save everyone, He would have begun with Adam. Instead, God instituted a penalty for sins(return back to dust from where you were made) since the time of Adam, and since the fall of Adam, to this day, those who refuse/reject God, end their journey in the grave.

Also, as far as John 3 is concerned, I suggest you do what Jesus Christ commanded of you first -- become like a Child, dump/unknow everything you think you know of God, and begin anew, this time, allowing God Himself teach you about Himself. Apostle John was clear that the salvation specified in John 3 vs 16 -23 was salvation from the penalty of death for sinners(condemnation which began with Adam), nothing more. The gift of eternal life, acquired through belief in the person of Jesus Christ was a reversal of the pronouncement of death on sinners(unbelievers in this case).
Anyone, even Satan can obviously quote verses from the Bible to support just about any idea/doctrine/logic/lie you can think of, but the comprehension and clear understanding of what is written, in the context it was presented) is something entirely different.

We do? I believe you're the one making unilateral claims for no reason about what is the Word of God and what isn't. How then are we the ones reading the Bible with blinders on? That makes no sense.

Clearly, the Bible says that God wants everybody to be saved. Clearly, the Bible also teaches that everybody is responsible to choose whether they want to be saved or not. So, your position has nothing to do with what the Bible teaches.

If you wish to argue extrabiblically, then, yes, of course, if God chose to save everybody without any reference to their free will, He could. Nothing can stop Him from doing anything that He wishes to do. The question is if He wants to do that. And the answer from the Bible is an unequivocal NO. God's decree is that everyone must choose of their own free will.

As for John 3, I don't see why you think that it isn't you who needs to "dump/unknow everything you think you know of God, and begin anew, this time, allowing God Himself teach you about Himself". What makes you think you're the one whom God has taught here? Your arguments violate even the Gospels and the Old Testament that you claim to receive as being the very Words out of God's mouth. So, I could certainly say the very same thing to you.

As for your interpretation of salvation and eternal life...

3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3 (NKJV) (compare John 17:24 posted before)

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
John 11:25 (NKJV)

So, I would say that you're remarkably wrong. Obviously, the death is not "reversed" in all cases. Believers may still die (the "dust to dust" reference you made), although some will definitely never taste death, but the main idea is that they will be raised to life to live with Christ forever in sweet fellowship with the Trinity learning more and more of the God Whom they love throughout eternity --

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God..."
Revelation 21:3 (NKJV)

You don't know the things of which you speak, friend. You are an interloper in biblical matters.

You are certainly right that people can try to distort/twist the Scriptures to suit their own ends, but, as you said, the Bible does not yield itself so easily to such abuse.

16 ...as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16 (NKJV)

It seems to me that that is what is proving to be the case with you. Obviously, the very text of the Scriptures rejects your handling of them. As I said, you don't know the things of which you speak. You truly have no part in these things. So, again, I urge you to repent and believe the Gospel, so that the blessing of Christ may truly rest upon you. As it is right now, you are an enemy of Christ's attacking His Church with lies, and those who destroy God's Temple (that is, His Church), God Himself will destroy (1 Corinthians 3:17).

Ihedinobi3:


We do? I believe you're the one making unilateral claims for no reason about what is the Word of God and what isn't. How then are we the ones reading the Bible with blinders on? That makes no sense.

Clearly, the Bible says that God wants everybody to be saved. Clearly, the Bible also teaches that everybody is responsible to choose whether they want to be saved or not. So, your position has nothing to do with what the Bible teaches.

If you wish to argue extrabiblically, then, yes, of course, if God chose to save everybody without any reference to their free will, He could. Nothing can stop Him from doing anything that He wishes to do. The question is if He wants to do that. And the answer from the Bible is an unequivocal NO. God's decree is that everyone must choose of their own free will.

As for John 3, I don't see why you think that it isn't you who needs to "dump/unknow everything you think you know of God, and begin anew, this time, allowing God Himself teach you about Himself". What makes you think you're the one whom God has taught here? Your arguments violate even the Gospels and the Old Testament that you claim to receive as being the very Words out of God's mouth. So, I could certainly say the very same thing to you.

As for your interpretation of salvation and eternal life...

3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3 (NKJV) (compare John 17:24 posted before)

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
John 11:25 (NKJV)

So, I would say that you're remarkably wrong. Obviously, the death is not "reversed" in all cases. Believers may still die (the "dust to dust" reference you made), although some will definitely never taste death, but the main idea is that they will be raised to life to live with Christ forever in sweet fellowship with the Trinity learning more and more of the God Whom they love throughout eternity --

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God..."
Revelation 21:3 (NKJV)

You don't know the things of which you speak, friend. You are an interloper in biblical matters.

You are certainly right that people can try to distort/twist the Scriptures to suit their own ends, but, as you said, the Bible does not yield itself so easily to such abuse.

16 ...as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16 (NKJV)

It seems to me that that is what is proving to be the case with you. Obviously, the very text of the Scriptures rejects your handling of them. As I said, you don't know the things of which you speak. You truly have no part in these things. So, again, I urge you to repent and believe the Gospel, so that the blessing of Christ may truly rest upon you. As it is right now, you are an enemy of Christ's attacking His Church with lies, and those who destroy God's Temple (that is, His Church), God Himself will destroy (1 Corinthians 3:17).

Like I said, Anyone, even Satan can obviously quote verses from the Bible to support just about any idea/doctrine/logic/lie you can think of, but the comprehension and clear understanding of what is written, in the context it was presented) is something entirely different.

If only you at least had the comprehension of what is written, you would have seen that the verse you quoted, particularly from the Gospels, say exactly what I said of this gift called eternal life. I don't think you saw it, or you would not have told me it was extra-biblical.

God Himself chose those who would follow Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ made certain to focus on the ones that His Father had given Him alone. Yes, God made His Kingdom for those He has chosen. As for the claim that God intends to save all... was that claim made by God Himself? By Jesus Christ? Or the opinion of a man, only written in the Bible too?

They don't want to hear Once saved always or forever saved BUT they like to talk about ETERNAL Salvation....

madegreatbygrace:





My brother, to have a clear understanding of this, we'll have to read from the beginning of the chapter, and consequently bring the quoted verse into context.



“Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬





In Matt. 24: 3, the disciples asked Jesus three questions. “When will this happen?” referring to the Temple’s destruction, “What will be the sign of your coming?” referring to the 2nd Coming, “And of the End of the Age?” referring to the events leading up to the Kingdom Age.

In Matthew’s account there’s no answer to the first question, only to the last two. Luke began his account the same way as Matthew. The Luke account begins at Luke 21: 6

In Matthew 24: 13, Jesus says, ” But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”.

The question we need to ask ourselves is, who was Jesus referring to?

Obviously, He wasn't referring to believers because the Church would have been raptured at this time. He was referring to those that would be saved by works left behind after the rapture.


“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So this verse clearly teaches that some Gentiles will be saved during the great tribulation. Unlike the Church which is saved by grace through faith, these ones will be saved by their own works. This is the category of people Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24: 13.

Shalom!

The church wouldn't have been raptured. He said in that Matthew 24 that for the sake of the elect the great tribulation period would be shortened. Why would it if the church had been raptured. Still in tha kt chapter He said "the deception would be so great the elect would nearly be deceived". How possible if they had been raptured? This rapture before tribulation is a lie that has been sneaked into Christianity and entrenched. It is not scriptural.

Goshen360:
They don't want to hear Once saved always or forever saved BUT they like to talk about ETERNAL Salvation....

Questions:
1. If a person once saved ends up in hell, does that mean he became 'unsaved'?
2. If a 'saved' person can become 'unsaved' what was he really saved from in the first place? Could it not be said then that he was really not 'saved' but only took steps that qualify him to be eventually saved IF HE MET SOME CONDITIONS?
3. Does the person who BELIEVES in Christ have ETERNAL LIFE when he does or merely a POTENTIAL to have eternal life?
4. Whose WORK is salvation - God's or man's or God plus man?
5. If mankind was DEAD in trespasses and sin is there anything a DEAD MAN can do to SAVE himself?
6. Is being 'born again' something that happens in the here and now or after death? If now, can a spiritually 'born' person become 'unborn'?
7. Was Christ work COMPLETE or was it something partial to which man needs to ADD his own good works before qualifying for ETERNAL salvation?

I believe that the failure to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH in answering questions such as the ones above has led to the erroneous thinking that man has a part to play in his salvation. If the work of salvation did not start with man then it cannot be made complete by man.

Kobojunkie:
Like I said, Anyone, even Satan can obviously quote verses from the Bible to support just about any idea/doctrine/logic/lie you can think of, but the comprehension and clear understanding of what is written, in the context it was presented) is something entirely different.

If only you at least had the comprehension of what is written, you would have seen that the verse you quoted, particularly from the Gospels, say exactly what I said of this gift called eternal life. I don't think you saw it, or you would not have told me it was extra-biblical.

God Himself chose those who would follow Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ made certain to focus on the ones that His Father had given Him alone. Yes, God made His Kingdom for those He has chosen. As for the claim that God intends to save all... was that claim made by God Himself? By Jesus Christ? Or the opinion of a man, only written in the Bible too?

I think that you are being very dishonest. When I offered you a chance to explain your weird stance on what constitutes the Word of God, you said that I shouldn't bother to sway you and that it is okay if I don't like your position. I accepted your answer, and now you have said several times that I should aspire to be like you, but I have no idea why you think being the way you are is right for even you, much less me.

I have been arguing that you don't have any comprehension of the Scriptures, and you have not even attempted to show why you believe that you do. So, when you say that you wish that I had a comprehension of the Scriptures, I can't even begin to understand what you mean by that.

It is not much of an argument to say that if I understood what I read, I wouldn't have opposed your claims. Since you believe that your understanding is correct, why don't you show why you do? Or am I supposed to just agree with you that you are right because you say that you are? And yet I am the cultist who thinks Christ belongs only to me and others like me?

As I said before, I have no idea what you are arguing against when you say that God chose some people or that Christ focused on these chosen ones for salvation. I don't see the difference between what you are saying here and the arguments that I have made regarding the matter. God certainly chose some people to be saved. The Lord Jesus most certainly treasures them and gives them special protection and provision to fulfill the purpose of their calling to salvation. What I don't see, as I have said before, is how any of that means that those who were not chosen are people that God doesn't want saved. It was our Lord Himself Who said that "many are called." Called to what if not salvation? The Bible says that God commands men everywhere to repent. I have offered you a passage in Ezekiel declaring that what God wants is for the wicked to repent and live. I don't see anything that even remotely suggests that God does not want everybody to be saved, quite the opposite in fact.

As for God intending to save all, I have no idea what claim you mean. I obviously argue that God wants all men to be saved. I have also argued that if it was a matter of His Intention or Will without any reference to individual free will, then, of course, you would have a point. But His Intention is that only those who want to and choose to be saved will be. That does not mean that God does not desire or want all men to be saved. If He didn't, Jesus would not have died for the whole world.

As for your first paragraph, as I have said twice, I have said the same thing to you.

sagenaija:

Questions:
1. If a person once saved ends up in hell, does that mean he became 'unsaved'?
2. If a 'saved' person can become 'unsaved' what was he really saved from in the first place? Could it not be said then that he was really not 'saved' but only took steps that qualify him to be eventually saved IF HE MET SOME CONDITIONS?
3. Does the person who BELIEVES in Christ have ETERNAL LIFE when he does or merely a POTENTIAL to have eternal life?
4. Whose WORK is salvation - God's or man's or God plus man?
5. If mankind was DEAD in trespasses and sin is there anything a DEAD MAN can do to SAVE himself?
6. Is being 'born again' something that happens in the here and now or after death? If now, can a spiritually 'born' person become 'unborn'?
7. Was Christ work COMPLETE or was it something partial to which man needs to ADD his own good works before qualifying for ETERNAL salvation?

I believe that the failure to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH in answering questions such as the ones above has led to the erroneous thinking that man has a part to play in his salvation. If the work of salvation did not start with man then it cannot be made complete by man.

I just made a comment and you're bombarding me with 7 questions. Why don't you explain the very words of Christ in John 3v16. That's the ABC of salvation.

I see Christians who did not save themselves BUT are trying to keep themselves. Salvation is the LORD'S
Selah!

Goshen360:


I just made a comment and you're bombarding me with 7 questions. Why don't you explain the very words of Christ in John 3v16. That's the ABC of salvation.

I was only amplifying your position my brother.
And hoping that other readers will be challenged by the questions.

Goshen360:
I see Christians who did not save themselves BUT are trying to keep themselves. Salvation is the LORD'S
Selah!

Hello Brother Goshen, old friend. Long time, sir.

I think that we could compare being saved to being in Noah's Ark, since the Bible itself draws that parallel. If we do, it seems to me that it should be obvious that going into the Ark to escape the Flood does not remove your ability to also go outside the Ark again, if you want. As long as you are willing to stay inside, you will be safe from the Flood. If you decide for any reason that you don't want to be in the Ark anymore, then you will no longer be safe.

This clearly does not mean that you are the one saving yourself or keeping yourself saved. You, after all, are not the Ark. You are only a creature who possesses the Image of God and thus able to make a choice about your relationship to the Ark.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:4-6 (NKJV)

11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
2 Timothy 2:11-13 (NKJV)

Hyper-calvinists reject free will. They may answer the above passages with the argument that they do not prove that we can choose to stop abiding/remaining in Christ or to deny Christ if we want. But this is what Jesus Himself said:

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:19 (NKJV)

This is clear proof of the existence of a free will. People have the choice of light over darkness, but they obviously prefer darkness to light and therefore are not saved as a result. If we take the argument to its true biblical conclusion, then we must keep in mind that the Bible claims that man was made in God's Own Image. That is a clear reference to our possession of a free will, since God is not defined by space-time, matter, or energy, so that His Image cannot be defined in that way either. What we know of God is that He is Spirit (in the uncreated sense rather than in the sense of angels or human and animal spirits) and thus His Image is entirely a spiritual attribute. God is by definition a truly and purely autonomous Person. His Will is completely free. He has no obligations or responsibilities. Possessing His Image means that we have a similar quality.

Of course, our free will is limited by the circumstances that the Lord subjects us to. We can only choose from among what options He makes available to us. We are not so autonomous as to control reality however we please. We are part of reality, so we choose under certain rules to which we are subject as creatures.

This free will is why our Salvation is so secure and yet dependent on us. We can throw our Salvation away, if we want. But as long as we wish to stay saved, our Salvation can never be taken from us. Even if we sin, we remain saved as long as we continue to believe in Jesus Christ. God will discipline us for sinning, and if we remain hardheaded and stubborn about our sin, He can commence the discipline of the sin into death in our case leading to our physical death, but we will still be saved, even though "as through fire." Only choosing to stop believing can remove our Salvation from our grasp.

Just putting it out there.

davidinchrist:
Hebrews 10:26-27,31 KJV
For if we "sin wilfully" after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins,

[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The verse you quoted actually supports the once saved always saved doctrine partially.

The verse says that, if you commit any sin willfully after you get saved, the sin cannot be forgiven and you're going to hell fire. If we accept your interpretation of the verse, almost all Christians are going to hell fire and there's nothing they can do about it.

Depsui:


The verse you quoted actually supports the once saved always saved doctrine partially.

The verse says that, if you commit any sin willfully after you get saved, the sin cannot be forgiven and you're going to hell fire. If we accept your interpretation of the verse, almost all Christians are going to hell fire and there's nothing they can do about it.

Yeah friend, that's why we got do violence to enter God's kingdom. It says, only few will find the way. Lukewarmness is not acceptable or else we get spat out of Jesus' mouth.


Luke 13:23-24 KJV
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, [24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

1 Peter 4:18 KJV
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


Matthew 7:21 KJV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

davidinchrist:


Yeah friend, that's why we got do violence to enter God's kingdom. It says, only few will find the way. Lukewarmness is not acceptable or else we get spat out of Jesus' mouth.


Luke 13:23-24 KJV
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, [24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

1 Peter 4:18 KJV
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


Matthew 7:21 KJV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So since you got saved, you've never committed any sin?

Depsui:


So since you got saved, you've never committed any sin?

Yes, and I've repented over and over. Although, I don't know if you really want hear the truth or just want to argue: I don't argue, and usually ignore those who want to engage me in such.

Friend, the thing is "I don't want to sin". So if I slip up a bit somewhere, even in thought, I want to repent and settle it quickly. God's will is that we get rid of every KNOWN Sins, and then press on to perfection: becoming more and more like Christ. Another thing is keeping off from temptation.

It says, lead us not into temptation: BUT I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO GO ABOUT LOOKING FOR TEMPTATIONS...

davidinchrist:


Yes, and I've repented over and over. Although, I don't know if you really want hear the truth or just want to argue: I don't argue, and usually ignore those who want to engage me in such.

Friend, the thing is "I don't want to sin". So if I slip up a bit somewhere, even in thought, I want to repent and settle it quickly. God's will is that we get rid of every KNOWN Sins, and then press on to perfection: becoming more and more like Christ. Another thing is keeping off from temptation.

It says, lead us not into temptation: BUT I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO GO ABOUT LOOKING FOR TEMPTATIONS...

According to the verse you quoted, you're going to hell and there's nothing you can do about it.

Read the 3verses again.

Depsui:


According to the verse you quoted, you're going to hell and there's nothing you can do about it.

Read the 3verses again.

Friend, you don't understand.

Depsui:


According to the verse you quoted, you're going to hell and there's nothing you can do about it.

Read the 3verses again.

And if possible, read the book of first John in your free time.

Ihedinobi3:


Hello Brother Goshen, old friend. Long time, sir.

I think that we could compare being saved to being in Noah's Ark, since the Bible itself draws that parallel. If we do, it seems to me that it should be obvious that going into the Ark to escape the Flood does not remove your ability to also go outside the Ark again, if you want. As long as you are willing to stay inside, you will be safe from the Flood. If you decide for any reason that you don't want to be in the Ark anymore, then you will no longer be safe.

This clearly does not mean that you are the one saving yourself or keeping yourself saved. You, after all, are not the Ark. You are only a creature who possesses the Image of God and thus able to make a choice about your relationship to the Ark.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:4-6 (NKJV)

11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
2 Timothy 2:11-13 (NKJV)

Hyper-calvinists reject free will. They may answer the above passages with the argument that they do not prove that we can choose to stop abiding/remaining in Christ or to deny Christ if we want. But this is what Jesus Himself said:

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:19 (NKJV)

This is clear proof of the existence of a free will. People have the choice of light over darkness, but they obviously prefer darkness to light and therefore are not saved as a result. If we take the argument to its true biblical conclusion, then we must keep in mind that the Bible claims that man was made in God's Own Image. That is a clear reference to our possession of a free will, since God is not defined by space-time, matter, or energy, so that His Image cannot be defined in that way either. What we know of God is that He is Spirit (in the uncreated sense rather than in the sense of angels or human and animal spirits) and thus His Image is entirely a spiritual attribute. God is by definition a truly and purely autonomous Person. His Will is completely free. He has no obligations or responsibilities. Possessing His Image means that we have a similar quality.

Of course, our free will is limited by the circumstances that the Lord subjects us to. We can only choose from among what options He makes available to us. We are not so autonomous as to control reality however we please. We are part of reality, so we choose under certain rules to which we are subject as creatures.

This free will is why our Salvation is so secure and yet dependent on us. We can throw our Salvation away, if we want. But as long as we wish to stay saved, our Salvation can never be taken from us. Even if we sin, we remain saved as long as we continue to believe in Jesus Christ. God will discipline us for sinning, and if we remain hardheaded and stubborn about our sin, He can commence the discipline of the sin into death in our case leading to our physical death, but we will still be saved, even though "as through fire." Only choosing to stop believing can remove our Salvation from our grasp.

Just putting it out there.

Hello my dear brother Ihedinobi,

I agree with all your thoughts even though Noah ark example you used geg keh leg....lol. Why? Noah's ark is a type and shadow and in type and shadow, the substance sometimes is bigger or smaller to the shadows but lets leave that one aside.

However, kindly explain these scriptures as regards our free will to continue to believe in the light of subject salvation.

Phillipians 2v13....both to will and to do (emphasized).

Ephesians 4v30...sealed unto the day of redemption

John 6v39. He shall not lose none the father gave him.

Kindly help us through light on those scriptures.

Thank you sir.

GRACE is EXCLUSIVELY God's work.
No one can ADD to what God has done.

GRACE is a manifestation of God's POWER, God's VIRTUE, God's EFFICACY, God's MERCY and His COMPASSION towards us.

Therefore to think that man can CONTRIBUTE in any way to the GRACE of God is the height of arrogance.

GRACE is always UNDESERVED blessing from God to mankind. God's GRACE is FREE unmerited eternal LOVE of God toward us. GRACE is TOTALLY undeserved.

GRACE implies that all things, INCLUDING SALVATION, never compromise divine essence or divine effort in bestowing blessing and favour on mankind.

For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].
Ephesians 2:8&9 AMP

sagenaija:
GRACE is EXCLUSIVELY God's work.
No one can ADD to what God has done.

GRACE is a manifestation of God's POWER, God's VIRTUE, God's EFFICACY, God's MERCY and His COMPASSION towards us.

Therefore to think that man can CONTRIBUTE in any way to the GRACE of God is the height of arrogance.

GRACE is always UNDESERVED blessing from God to mankind. God's GRACE is FREE unmerited eternal LOVE of God toward us. GRACE is TOTALLY undeserved.

GRACE implies that all things, INCLUDING SALVATION, never compromise divine essence or divine effort in bestowing blessing and favour on mankind.

For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].
Ephesians 2:8&9 AMP

Friend, I wonder if you would like to hear the truth. See, I don't represent any church or pastor (stopped going to my former church since 2014). The truth is your emphasis above is half-truth.

You emphasized Ephesians 2; but why didn't you emphasize Ephesians chap. 4, 5 and 6 as well, which are equally important. That's one dangerous thing about churches and pastors; they form a doctrine using a part of scripture, ignoring others that they don't like. This is why I RUN from them: "Blind leaders of the blind", as Jesus called them.

Dear friend(s), we'd better stop fooling ourselves along with our great Pastors and churches on the broad way.

Read chap 4, 5 and 6 in your free time. IT'S DANGEROUS TO STOP AT CHAP 2.
Ephesians 5:5-8,15-16 KJV
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. [6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. [7] Be not ye therefore partakers with them. [8] For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: [15] See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, [16] Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Nevertheless, you don't need to agree with me: your choice.

Peace with you.