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Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters - Religion - Nairaland

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Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by ofor(m): 8:25am On Mar 26, 2011
Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually contains lies?

Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all, sacred Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the term. And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle -- Peter, Paul or James -- knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery.

Most modern scholars of the Bible shy away from these terms, and for understandable reasons, some having to do with their clientele. Teaching in Christian seminaries, or to largely Christian undergraduate populations, who wants to denigrate the cherished texts of Scripture by calling them forgeries built on lies? And so scholars use a different term for this phenomenon and call such books "pseudepigrapha."

You will find this antiseptic term throughout the writings of modern scholars of the Bible. It's the term used in university classes on the New Testament, and in seminary courses, and in Ph.D. seminars. What the people who use the term do not tell you is that it literally means "writing that is inscribed with a lie."

And that's what such writings are. Whoever wrote the New Testament book of 2 Peter claimed to be Peter. But scholars everywhere -- except for our friends among the fundamentalists -- will tell you that there is no way on God's green earth that Peter wrote the book. Someone else wrote it claiming to be Peter. Scholars may also tell you that it was an acceptable practice in the ancient world for someone to write a book in the name of someone else. But that is where they are wrong. If you look at what ancient people actually said about the practice, you'll see that they invariably called it lying and condemned it as a deceitful practice, even in Christian circles. 2 Peter was finally accepted into the New Testament because the church fathers, centuries later, were convinced that Peter wrote it. But he didn't. Someone else did. And that someone else lied about his identity.

The same is true of many of the letters allegedly written by Paul. Most scholars will tell you that whereas seven of the 13 letters that go under Paul's name are his, the other six are not. Their authors merely claimed to be Paul. In the ancient world, books like that were labeled as pseudoi -- lies.

This may all seem like a bit of antiquarian curiosity, especially for people whose lives don't depend on the Bible or even people of faith for whom biblical matters are a peripheral interest at best. But in fact, it matters sometimes. Whoever wrote the book of 1 Timothy claimed to be Paul. But he was lying about that -- he was someone else living after Paul had died. In his book, the author of 1 Timothy used Paul's name and authority to address a problem that he saw in the church. Women were speaking out, exercising authority and teaching men. That had to stop. The author told women to be silent and submissive, and reminded his readers about what happened the first time a woman was allowed to exercise authority over a man, in that little incident in the garden of Eden. No, the author argued, if women wanted to be saved, they were to have babies (1 Tim. 2:11-15).

Largely on the basis of this passage, the apostle Paul has been branded, by more liberation minded people of recent generations, as one of history's great misogynists. The problem, of course, is that Paul never said any such thing. And why does it matter? Because the passage is still used by church leaders today to oppress and silence women. Why are there no women priests in the Catholic Church? Why are women not allowed to preach in conservative evangelical churches? Why are there churches today that do not allow women even to speak? In no small measure it is because Paul allegedly taught that women had to be silent, submissive and pregnant. Except that the person who taught this was not Paul, but someone lying about his identity so that his readers would think he was Paul.

It may be one of the greatest ironies of the Christian scriptures that some of them insist on truth, while telling a lie. For no author is truth more important than for the "Paul" of Ephesians. He refers to the gospel as "the word of truth" (1:13); he indicates that the "truth is in Jesus"; he tells his readers to "speak the truth" to their neighbors (4:24-25); and he instructs his readers to "fasten the belt of truth around your waist" (6:14). And yet he himself lied about who he was. He was not really Paul.

It appears that some of the New Testament writers, such as the authors of 2 Peter, 1 Timothy and Ephesians, felt they were perfectly justified to lie in order to tell the truth. But we today can at least evaluate their claims and realize just how human, and fallible, they were. They were creatures of their time and place. And so too were their teachings, lies and all.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html

Nairalanders, I want to know your opinion.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by vescucci(m): 10:27am On Mar 26, 2011
Well, the bible certainly contains lies. Some out of good intentions, some outta disregard and some outta greed. The article was good reading till around the middle where it started to look as if a case was being made to absolve Paul of all wrong doing. I wouldn't know for sure but the question should not be hating a man or loving another. The question should be about what is written. If it is disagreeable with what we consider God's nature or will, we ought to object to it. If a known liar tells the truth for once, we should accept and acknowledge it and not throw away the baby with the bath water. I don't think God meant for a collection of books to end up being the bible and for it to be the basis of our salvation but it it here and should not be worshipped. God should. The bible is just a book.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Dulcet7(m): 10:56am On Mar 26, 2011
vescucci:

Well, the bible certainly contains lies. Some out of good intentions, some outta disregard and some outta greed.

Hello Sir Vescucci. Can you please enlighten me on the above?
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Nobody: 10:59am On Mar 26, 2011
interesting.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by thehomer: 3:03pm On Mar 26, 2011
I'd recommend Bart Ehrman's book Misquoting Jesus as a beginner's guide in understanding the way scholars actually view the Bible New Testament included. And I hope that the readers realize that such knowledge is actually available and well known by pastors and others who have divinity degrees and theology degrees. These pastors generally deliberately hide such knowledge from their congregation.

I wonder if after reading these books, the readers can consider engaging their pastors in discussions on what they were taught while they were in the process of getting their degrees in these fields.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by vescucci(m): 4:43pm On Mar 26, 2011
I'm sorry, Dulcet, I'm a tad busy now. But I'll revert to you with a few examples, God willing, before midnight.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Joagbaje(m): 5:06pm On Mar 26, 2011
@Ofor
Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually contains lies?

The bible contains Gods word. It's a book of prophecy. There was never a faulty creation story. If there is, point them out.
Many prophecies of the bible had come to pass. And they are historically accurate. The reign of alexander the great was prophesied thousands of years before. The birth of christ, his death. Roman invasion . Even the present world government of democracy was predicted.

There could be minor human error due to copying in terms of spellings and figures. But the truth of the bible is consistent. It's theme is about Gods eternal plan of salvation.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by KunleOshob(m): 5:12pm On Mar 26, 2011
@joagbaje

Are there any scriptures to support your assertions above? Especially the one of Alexander the great.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by dalaman: 6:56pm On Mar 26, 2011
Joagbaje:

@Ofor
The bible contains Gods word. It's a book of prophecy. There was never a faulty creation story. If there is, point them out.


I think current scıentıfıc knowledge completely destroys the biblical creation story that is written in Genesis, the universe as we know it did not come about as described in the passages of Genesis and as such a lot of Christians that have true knowledge of science and astronomy regard the genesis story as an allegory, not as a factual or historical narrative.

Many prophecies of the bible had come to pass. And they are historically accurate.

I will like you to give such examples. To me this assertion is not completely accurate.

The reign of alexander the great was prophesied thousands of years before.

This is not really true because the book of Daniel that makes such prediction was written long after the events it talked about had happend. Its veryeasy to predict events after most of them have already happened.

The birth of christ, his death. Roman invasion . Even the present world government of democracy was predicted.


I will like to see the verses that allude to this assertion of yours from the bible. Mind you the gospels were written long after the events which they recorded had already happned, so again I believe its very easy to predict events after they have already taken place.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by vescucci(m): 9:41pm On Mar 26, 2011
^^^ Even I can predict anything. Given sufficient time, it will come to pass. Are we to believe Nostradamus to be a prophet because some clever people could make his imaginations similar to world events? And in any case, what is the point of predictions when they are not noticed or when you're not alive to see it?

Dulcet7:

Hello Sir Vescucci. Can you please enlighten me on the above?

Ah, na me you dey call sir? SIR, Dulcet, I am unfortunately going to be brief because I want this thread not to be about the bible or Christians or any religion. About the bible containing lies, I am sure you already know of the myriad of incompatible verses therein. Some apologetics have been known to explain them away and insult your intelligence but this is not a matter to me. Two differing accounts cannot both be true. It may well be excused if you are fuzzy about details but I've never come across any bible writer who uses the prefix "I think". They always state things as a matter of fact. The motives behind these kinda inaccuracies cannot be categorically stated but all one can say for sure is there is untruth afoot.

The kind of 'innocent' lying which is insidious because the writer believes it is the ones borne out of too much zeal to push forward an idea. I have a favourite:

In Matthew 2, it is related to us the story of the tyrannical king who wanted to kill baby Jesus. To escape this fate, his family took him to Egypt until the king died and they returned. When the writer of Matthew, whoever he was, described this event he wrote: “This was to fulfill a prophecy which is written” and then quotes Hosea Chapter 11 “Out of Egypt I called my Son”. So since Jesus went to Egypt and he's the son of God, that verse in the Old testament refers to him and this is killing two birds with one stone for it is to convince the Jew (who believes in the Torah) that Jesus is God's son and also to convince the pagan that the Torah and what he is saying/writing are both true. That is the whole point! But if you pay more attention to what he was quoting (Hosea 11:1) he (deliberately or mistakenly, you decide) quotes only partf of a complete sentence, which reads: “When Israel was young I loved him and out of Egypt I called my son”. Israel, the nation, was metaphorically considered as the son of God. Moses was once asked to warn Pharaoh and saying on God's behalf that if he touches the people of Israel, he touches His son. So “Out of Egypt I called my son” can only refer to the nation of Israel. Israel is also a metaphorical name for Jesus some people say. Suppose this was true, the second verse says “and after that he kept on worshipping Baal”, because this is what the Israelites were guilty of. Jesus rebuffed Satan, a 'real' entity. I doubt he'd worship Baal. So, the point is something is not right apparently. These are guys trying to prove a point by (knowingly or unknowingly) twisting scripture. The Book of Mathew is even regarded well, by some Christians over other books. This case stands out and we can see but what about the many other cases that the comparisons fit perfectly. Does that make things true.

With all due respect, this is what Joagbaje is doing right now. It's a reflex action borne out of zeal but not necessarily truth. I hope this is sufficient, Dulcet.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Horus(m): 12:53am On Mar 27, 2011
BLACK AFRICANS OF ANCIENT EGYPT WROTE THE HOLY BIBLE-AND
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS HIDING AND SUPPRESSING THIS TRUTH.


African Man and Woman: "And Ye Shall Know The Truth, and The Truth Shall Make You Free."   Holy Bible-John 8 : 32. According to a Ghanaian writer and researcher based in the United States of America (USA), Nana Banchie Darkwah, Ph.D., emphatically states this as fact in his book: 'The Africans Who Wrote The Bible-Ancient Secrets Africa and Christianity Have Never Told',  Aduana Publishing Co., 2000, P.O. Box 2781, Russellville, AR. 72802, USA. " However, the worst lie and sin of the Church was the premeditated transformation of the racial and ethnic identities of Jesus Christ, his mother and the entire people of the Bible from black people they were to white people to satisfy emerging European racist sentiments against black people"(Nana Banchie Darkwah, ibid. introduction, page i).

First of all, for one to understand the truth of the above statement and accept it as a fact, that Black Africans of Ancient Egypt Wrote The Holy Bible, thus, one must dispel the erroneous notion and fabricated lies that Christian Europe, particularly the Catholic Church, have done in painting the Ancient Egyptians as pagans, heathens and devils.   Also, one must understand that Christian Europe's  and the Catholic Church's motives for attacking Ancient Egypt in such a negative vein, is due to the fact that Ancient Egyptian Priests were the Scribes who wrote what we have come to know today as the Holy Bible. Moreover, Ancient Egypt from its pre-dynastic period up to its Golden-Age of pyramid building was a an unadulterated predominately Black race of people (3500-2100 B.C.E.).   

The descendants of these Ancient Egyptians are living throughout Sub-Saharan Africa, today, particularly in the nations of Ghana, Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire. The very first "Bible" or "Scroll" on record produced by man, with regards to paying honour and divine respect to a "Creator of all Mankind" was that of African people of the Nile Valley and Great Lakes regions of Central, East and Northeast Africa.   The Book was called by its African Creators and developers, "The Book of The Coming Forth By Day and Night."   It was translated from its original hieroglyphic text into the English language by several Europeans since the latter part of the 19th  Century A.D. The easiest one to read is called, "The" (Egyptian) "Book of the Dead." This work was translated by British Egyptologist Sir Ernest A. Wallis Budge, London, 1895 A.D.   This  Original Bible was produced by Black Africans approximately 3,400 years before the Old Testament, and more than 4,200 years before the New Testament, and countless Versions of it have been written and published (Dr. Ben Jochannan, A Chronology of the Bible-Challenge To The Standard Version, USA.).
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Joagbaje(m): 6:34am On Mar 27, 2011
KunleOshob:

@joagbaje

Are there any scriptures to support your assertions above? Especially the one of Alexander the great.

There are several prophecies in the bible .especially in the book of Daniel . Like the image the king saw and Daniel interpreted to him. That image represents the world system. It's like a calendar even to our time and beyond.

Daniel2:31
"Your Majesty, you had a vision. You saw a large statue. This statue was very bright. It stood in front of you, and it looked terrifying. 32 The head of this statue was made of fine gold. Its chest and arms were made of silver. Its stomach and hips were made of bronze. 33 Its legs were made of iron. Its feet were made partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 While you were watching, a stone was cut out, but not by humans. It struck the statue's iron-and-clay feet and smashed them. 35 Then all at once, the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were smashed. They became like husks on a threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the statue became a large mountain which filled the whole world.


The image has head of Gold  -Babylon
Chest and Arm of silver         -Medes and Persia empire
Stomach of bronze                -Greek empire ( alexander the great)
Leg of iron.                            -Roman empire
Feet of clay and iron.             -present day  Democracy and merging of unions. Africa union. United nation and E.U etc.

The interpretation
36 This is the dream. Now we'll tell you its meaning.
37 "Your Majesty, you are the greatest king. The God of heaven has given you a kingdom. He has given you power, strength, and honor. 38 He has given you control over people, wild animals, and birds, wherever they live. He has made you ruler of them all. You are the head of gold. 39 Another kingdom, inferior to yours, will rise to power after you. Then there will be a third kingdom, a kingdom of bronze, that will rule the whole world. 40 There will also be a fourth kingdom. It will be as strong as iron. (Iron smashes and shatters everything.) As iron crushes things, this fourth kingdom will smash and crush all the other kingdoms. 41 You also saw the feet and toes. They were partly potters' clay and partly iron. This means that there will be a divided kingdom which has some of the firmness of iron. As you saw, iron was mixed with clay. 42 The toes were partly iron and partly clay. Part of the kingdom will be strong, and part will be brittle. 43 As you saw, iron was mixed with clay. So the two parts of the kingdom will mix by intermarrying, but they will not hold together any more than iron can mix with clay.


The church age and christ kingdom

44 "At the time of those kings, the God of heaven will establish a kingdom that will never be destroyed. No other people will be permitted to rule it. It will smash all the other kingdoms and put an end to them. But it will be established forever. 45 This is the stone that you saw cut out from a mountain, but not by humans. It smashed the iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. The great God has told you what will happen in the future, Your Majesty. The dream is true, and you can trust that this is its meaning." 46 King Nebuchadnezzar immediately bowed down on the ground in front of Daniel.

Another prophecy
Daniel 10:13
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.


The prince of Persia here is not an earthly prince. But a demonic principality who controls the earthly king. These are political demons Satan send to rule each government. As paul confirmed

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.


So there is a natural king or prince and Satan assigns a spiritual prince to control him.Daniel predicted here again that After the Persian ,another empire GREECE will rule the world. This ruler was Alexander the Great.He hellenised the known world with Greek culture.   

Daniel 10:20
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.


Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon  was the most powerful  king in history. God predicted that after him, other kingdoms will be more inferior to the other. There would be deterioration . In power and quality.
Babylon was good in Gold historically
Medes and Persia were good in silver
Greece was good in bronze
Rome was good in iron
Democracy is iron and clay. Iron is power, clay is human right.The kingdoms are getting weaker and weaker . Democracy is the weakest government . Nebuchadnezzar could kill at will. But human right, animal right, etc . Woukd not allow a president to do as he wish.  The weak government of the world will soon be smashed by heavenly kingdom of The STONE.  CHRIST THE ROCK.

Matthew 21:44
44 aAnd whoever falls on this Stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom It falls will be crushed to powder [and It will bwinnow him, cscattering him like dust].


Daniel 9:34
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

There are other prophecies that gave more accurate pictures in Daniel, revelations and other prophetic books. If these thing were predicted in the bible before they ever existed and they came to pass. Then, definately the things predicted in the bible for our time and future are coming to pass. The Bible is accurate.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by wetu: 8:09am On Mar 27, 2011

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

For me that is enough to know that it was inspired by God and I don't really care who wrote it.

It's not research that will make you believe, that's why many Bible scholars are unbelievers:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



I know the Bible is the Word of God and God cannot lie, neither can He make mistakes. The Spirit bears witness that his Word is truth:

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Christians who have the Spirit should leave the unbelievers alone to debate the origin and correctness of the Bible. For us the witness of the Spirit is enough.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by pstchrist(m): 9:49am On Mar 27, 2011
this is heresy,the bible is a book that contains the word of God.people wrote them as they were inspired by God.2pet1:21
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by PastorAIO: 2:16pm On Mar 27, 2011
Joagbaje:

There are several prophecies in the bible .especially in the book of Daniel . Like the image the king saw and Daniel interpreted to him. That image represents the world system. It's like a calendar even to our time and beyond.

Daniel2:31
"Your Majesty, you had a vision. You saw a large statue. This statue was very bright. It stood in front of you, and it looked terrifying. 32 The head of this statue was made of fine gold. Its chest and arms were made of silver. Its stomach and hips were made of bronze. 33 Its legs were made of iron. Its feet were made partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 While you were watching, a stone was cut out, but not by humans. It struck the statue's iron-and-clay feet and smashed them. 35 Then all at once, the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were smashed. They became like husks on a threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the statue became a large mountain which filled the whole world.


The image has head of Gold  -Babylon
Chest and Arm of silver         -Medes and Persia empire
Stomach of bronze                -Greek empire ( alexander the great)
Leg of iron.                            -Roman empire
Feet of clay and iron.             -present day  Democracy and merging of unions. Africa union. United nation and E.U etc.

The interpretation
36 This is the dream. Now we'll tell you its meaning.
37 "Your Majesty, you are the greatest king. The God of heaven has given you a kingdom. He has given you power, strength, and honor. 38 He has given you control over people, wild animals, and birds, wherever they live. He has made you ruler of them all. You are the head of gold. 39 Another kingdom, inferior to yours, will rise to power after you. Then there will be a third kingdom, a kingdom of bronze, that will rule the whole world. 40 There will also be a fourth kingdom. It will be as strong as iron. (Iron smashes and shatters everything.) As iron crushes things, this fourth kingdom will smash and crush all the other kingdoms. 41 You also saw the feet and toes. They were partly potters' clay and partly iron. This means that there will be a divided kingdom which has some of the firmness of iron. As you saw, iron was mixed with clay. 42 The toes were partly iron and partly clay. Part of the kingdom will be strong, and part will be brittle. 43 As you saw, iron was mixed with clay. So the two parts of the kingdom will mix by intermarrying, but they will not hold together any more than iron can mix with clay.



Please sir, good morning, Inside the above prophecies, I wonder, where is the Assyrian empire which was more brutal than the babylonian? Where is the Egyptian empire that preceded the babylonian empire?

But most importantly, where is the greatest and vastest empire that there ever was according to our knowledge of history, namely the British Empire. Did Nebuchadnezzar have the kind of power that Queen Victoria had?

Where does China fit into the scheme? How about the vast Arabic empire that crushed the Roman empire in the east, and then went on to annex Persia? Where does that fit into the dream. Since Rome there have been many great empires, not just iron and clay.

What about the empires carved out by Genghis Khan and his successors?

I really do not see the analogy between your interpretation of the dream and actual history.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by DeepSight(m): 3:32pm On Mar 27, 2011
^^^ I dont think your concerns are apt to the trajectory and context of the prophecy and its considered fulfilmments. Nebuchadnezzar's dream and Daniel's interpretation concerned the arch of prime world powers - those that would excercise global (known world) dominance as successors to Babylon as the cheif world power. It is therefore needless that such a dream should countenance every coneivable empire or great world power that ever existed. The dream concntrates itself around the world powers of a leading line the succession of which directs the course of global events i general terms.

Jehovah's Witnesses Interpretation

In the Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream,[19] the statue is said to represent the following kingdoms:

1.The gold head - Babylon
2.The silver bosom and arms - Medo-Persia
3.The copper belly and thighs - Greece
4.The iron legs - Rome
5.The feet partly of iron and partly of molded clay - Anglo-American dual power

The Anglo-American power is seen as the last dominant world power, emerging from a part of the Roman Empire (the iron legs) first as the British Empire, and then with the formation of the United States of America, to develop into the present-day special relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom. The dual nature of iron and clay (hard and soft), seemingly incompatible materials, is said to indicate the dual aspects of 'hard' and 'soft' power - military strength and diplomacy - both of which have been used to full effect by the USA and UK, while also hinting at inherent differences and even weaknesses in the relationship between the two powers.

The "kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and , not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever", in verse 44 of the prophecy, is said by Witnesses to be the heavenly kingdom established by God, with Jesus as appointed King, which will ultimately bring to an end human rulership.

Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that the sequence of world powers in Nebuchadnezzar's dream parallels that given in the vision in the Book of Revelation Chapter 17, verse 10 which speaks of "seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived". (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece having "fallen" by the time Revelation was written; Rome was the world power at the time - "one is" - while the British Empire and subsequent emergence of the United States and their later alliance was then yet to come, hence "the other has not yet arrived".)
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by PastorAIO: 4:24pm On Mar 27, 2011
^^^

Please, how does the creation of an Arab/islamic empire have nothing to do with the 'conquest and the trajectory of the prophecy'?

The Persian empire fell to the Arabs. So did the Eastern Roman empire.

There is no such thing as an Anglo-American empire. These are two very separate governments and the JW's and just trying too hard to squeeze history into the prophecy. What a contrivance!!!
Where does Soviet dominance fit into it?

what exactly do you mean by the context of the prophecy? Do you mean geographical context? Because if you are talking geographically then england and US are no where near the middle east. Whereas Assyria is right there so please tell me, where does the Assyrian empire fit into the prophecy.

When you say globe do you really mean global, or do you just mean 'known world' as in what the bible writers knew? I do not see any single 'leading line' of succession in the history of world power in the region.
Rome fell to the barbarians in the west and to the Arabs in the east. The rest of the Roman empire continued as Byzantium until it fell to the Ottomans, I'm not sure when but I think around the 17th century.

What would have been really impressive was if Daniel predicted the rise of the Arab empire? Alas that didn't happen.

I'm not asking for a list of every great world power. I'm just asking for an accurate account of every world power that had a bearing on the middle east (the jews) since the time Daniel was written and within the scope that Daniel writes about.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Joagbaje(m): 5:26pm On Mar 27, 2011
Pastor AIO:

Please sir, good morning,  Inside the above prophecies, I wonder, where is the Assyrian empire which was more brutal than the babylonian?
The prophecy had to do with World powers. kingdoms and empire that ruled the world.

 
Where is the Egyptian empire that preceded the babylonian empire? 

The prophecy was a count down from Babylonia Empire.

But most importantly, where is the greatest and vastest empire that there ever was according to our knowledge of history, namely the British Empire.  Did Nebuchadnezzar have the kind of power that Queen Victoria had?

They all fall under the roman empire. We are still under Roman empire partially. We are building on their foundation. Roman calendar has over taken Hebrew calendar, Arab calendar. The next world dominator is going to be the Antichrist. It will be a revived roman empire. He will have dual nationality . A Jew and an European

Where does China fit into the scheme?  How about the vast Arabic empire that crushed the Roman empire in the east, and then went on to annex Persia?  Where does that fit into the dream.  Since Rome there have been many great empires, not just iron and clay.

China will not be a political power. The Arabic empire that fought with Rome never dominated the world. The bible fortold how the Roman empire will divide. The decline of Roman empire was from internal wars and not external war.

What about the empires carved out by Genghis Khan and his successors? 
I really do not see the analogy between your interpretation of the dream and actual history.

The bible is accurate. These kingdom you mentioned didn't rule the world. The prophecies was about world powers politicaly.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by DeepSight(m): 6:12pm On Mar 27, 2011
pastor AIO you have entirely missed the context of the prophecy. I am shocked you could valo about geography. That is such a sadly myopic view of what was obviously a reference to kingdoms that would rule the world and the succession thereof. Perhaps you missed the accurate prediction of Greece splitting into four after Alexander. Typing on a phone, discuss later
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by KunleOshob(m): 6:28pm On Mar 27, 2011
^^^
Is deepsight playing the devil's advocate here
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by PastorAIO: 8:11pm On Mar 27, 2011
Joagbaje:

The prophecy had to do with World powers. kingdoms and empire that ruled the world.

 
The bible is accurate. These kingdom you mentioned didn't rule the world. The prophecies was about world powers politicaly.

What is your definition of ruling the world. None of these empire ruled a greater swathe of land than the british empire, so I don't know how they ruled the world and the british empire didn't rule the world. And there is no way you are going to convince me that Bristish empire is a continuation of Roman empire, what kind of spurious nonsense is that.

This world is a big place. Babylonian empire did not reach west africa. Persian empire did not reach North America. Greek empire did not reach Australia. So I don't know what you mean by World power. If you mean just the empires that had an effect of the Jews then the most glaring omission of the prophecy is the Arabian empire that ruled after the Roman Empire. Then there is the Ottoman Empire that ruled that region too.

Joagbaje:

 
The prophecy was a count down from Babylonia Empire.

They all fall under the roman empire. We are still under Roman empire partially. We are building on their foundation. Roman calendar has over taken Hebrew calendar, Arab calendar. The next world dominator is going to be the Antichrist. It will be a revived roman empire. He will have dual nationality . A Jew and an European


Putting everything under the Roman Empire is just complete spurious nonsense. Roman Empire is fallen. By your argument above you could say that Roman empire was just Greek empire because the language of the Roman empire was Greek and the culture of it was greek. The Romans only propagated Greek culture with their empire.
And as for the calendar joke, please tell me when you ever used hebrew or arab calendar. The present day calendar we use was not even what the Romans used at the time of the writing of Daniel or for the first four hundred years of christiandom. The present calendar is from christian byzantine era. That is why the references are to Jesus. Anno Domino is the year of our lord, AD. BC is before christ. These are plain christian references and not original roman references.

Joagbaje:

China will not be a political power. The Arabic empire that fought with Rome never dominated the world. The bible fortold how the Roman empire will divide. The decline of Roman empire was from internal wars and not external war.


dude, you should stick to twisting scriptures there is not so much leeway for twisting historical facts. China is already a global political power in case you haven't been keeping up with current affairs. The Arabic empire that didn't get a mention ruled a greater swathe of land than the Persian and babylonian empires that got mentioned.
Rome did not divide from internal war. Please don't lie about history, it is too well documented. Rome was besieged by Barbarians in the west, and it fell to the Arabs in the east.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by PastorAIO: 8:19pm On Mar 27, 2011
Deep Sight:

pastor AIO you have entirely missed the context of the prophecy. I am shocked you could valo about geography. That is such a sadly myopic view of what was obviously a reference to kingdoms that would rule the world and the succession thereof. Perhaps you missed the accurate prediction of Greece splitting into four after Alexander. Typing on a phone, discuss later

Please you need to explain the context to me. The Persian empire fell directly to the Arabs, so where do they fit into the line of succession argument. The Eastern roman empire fell to the Arabs too.

What do you mean by ruling the world. This is a big planet. Do you mean ruling the middle east? Is that what you mean by the world? A insist still that none of these empires ruled a greater area of this world than the british empire so I don't know how they ruled the world and Britian did not rule the world.

I know about the accurate 'prediction' of greece splitting into four parts. What is your point for bringing it up?

I join Kunle in asking you, are you playing a games or what? devil's advocate? Or just argument for the sake of it.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Joagbaje(m): 8:25pm On Mar 27, 2011
You don't have to insult me , I'm not twisting sccriptures . I have made my points biblically and it agrees with history. If you don't agree . is it with me or the bible? The bible has given us blue print of world event . Except you say the bible is lying . Why dont you give us your own interpretation of the prophecy.
You can tell us about Germany , Russia , and great Britain  who were once world powers
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by PastorAIO: 8:31pm On Mar 27, 2011
@Joagbaje,

I apologise for insulting you. I am not saying that the bible is lying. I am saying that history does not agree with your explanation of the prophecy. It is not backed by the facts of historical reality.
You said a number of things that are not historically accurate and I've pointed them out to you. If you find that insulting or a challenge to your biblical faith then they is your own dilemma that you have to try to resolve for yourself, but I am not to blame. I have only corrected you on your errors in historical matters.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by vescucci(m): 9:16pm On Mar 27, 2011
Does Deepsight believe in these prophecies then or he mere accedes that they are accurate?
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Joagbaje(m): 9:35pm On Mar 27, 2011
Pastor AIO:

@Joagbaje,

I apologise for insulting you. I am not saying that the bible is lying. I am saying that history does not agree with your explanation of the prophecy. It is not backed by the facts of historical reality.
You said a number of things that are not historically accurate and I've pointed them out to you. If you find that insulting or a challenge to your biblical faith then they is your own dilemma that you have to try to resolve for yourself, but I am not to blame. I have only corrected you on your errors in historical matters.

Europe is still part of roman empire . There will be a revived roman empire that's where The antichrist will come from .system is still on. But I'm still waiting for your interpretation of the prophecy.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by PastorAIO: 9:43pm On Mar 27, 2011
Joagbaje:

Europe is still part of roman empire . There will be a revived roman empire that's where The antichrist will come from .system is still on. But I'm still waiting for your interpretation of the prophecy.

Interpretation of the prophecy is not my palava. My own inside all this is that you cannot twist historical facts. Europe is part of roman empire in the same way that Israel is still part of the Babylonian Empire. And Nigeria is the Songhai Empire, sebi they are both in Africa.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by PastorAIO: 9:43pm On Mar 27, 2011
vescucci:

Does Deepsight believe in these prophecies then or he mere accedes that they are accurate?

Don't mind Deepsight o, he is just looking for argument.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Joagbaje(m): 10:30pm On Mar 27, 2011
Pastor AIO:

Interpretation of the prophecy is not my palava. My own inside all this is that you cannot twist historical facts. Europe is part of roman empire in the same way that Israel is still part of the Babylonian Empire. And Nigeria is the Songhai Empire, sebi they are both in Africa.

You are missing the point here. Rome according to scriptures is the last empire. Was it not Rome that discovered America? Were the European nations not part of roman empire. There will be a revived Rome It is European union.

http://www.suite101.com/content/the-european-union-a-revived-roman-empire-a272935
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by mabell: 10:38pm On Mar 27, 2011
@pastor AIO
I get the point joagbaje was making
the europian union is going to be a revived roman empire
and the europian currency is going to replace the american dollar
This might interest you

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/The%20rise%20of%20the%20new%20roman%20empire.HTM


The book of Daniel gives the details on the four world kingdoms of the Gentiles from the time of Daniel until the time that God sets up His kingdom on earth. The four kingdoms are:

•Babylonian empire under Nebuchadnezzar
•The Medo-Persian empire
•Macedonian empire under Alexander The Great
•The Roman Empire
The history of the world has taken place exactly as was told in the book of Daniel. A study of Daniel is essential to understand the world end time scenario. There are many good books written on the prophecies in Daniel e.g. "Handwriting on the Wall", by David Jeremiah or "The End of the Days", by Bloomfield, so I won't get into much detail and attempt to rewrite these books here. The first three kingdoms listed above were each defeated by its successor. The Roman empire was the last and terrible beast in Daniel's vision but it was never defeated and its wreckage remains at that same location.

There have been several unsuccessful attempts to reform this empire with the last (until today's European Union) being the unsuccessful attempt under the reign of Hitler. A study of Daniel makes it clear to the astute that there will be a future revival of this Roman empire in the area of Europe and some of the Middle East. This revived Roman empire is portrayed in Daniel as the ten toes on the great image that was in Nebuchadnezzar's vision.

The Rise of Europe and the new Roman Empire in this generation
Many, even in the church, have said it is impossible to ever unite Europe and they have mocked those who said that this prophetic scenario should be taken literally. However, in spite of those who insist on allegorizing prophecy we see a super state called the European Union forming in Europe to set the stage for the fulfillment of Old Testament and Revelation prophecies.

At the exact same time Israel has become a nation again to fulfill her end time prophetic role and many say this is meaningless as well. The blinded in Christianity and the world also see no significance to the creation of the UN, the rise of Islam and their own membership in the World Council of Churches. Nevertheless all these entities were born during this same period to fulfill their unique end time biblical role.

The socialist elite of Europe have made plans to have a united Europe under a centralized government. They already have implemented a common European military and currency. They may soon have central government power without sufficient checks and balances to keep it democratic. The number of nations that belong to the European Union are now 27 nations and others want to be admitted.

The EU is now the largest economy in the world and the most powerful political entity on earth. When things fall apart, as it will with 27 or more separate nations uniting on the whim of socialist or "third way" idealism, be sure a strong man will come to power to enforce the central government decrees. When this happens democracy will be nothing but an illusion in Europe. There will be no easy exit from the European Union once a state becomes a member. Also, the rising Muslim populations make a backlash by the natives and civl war certain within a decade. That alone will result in a police state.


The new Holy Roman Empire
The ground work for the new Holy Roman Empire is being put in place by political and religious figures but I believe there will be much difficulty in keeping it all together until a demonically inspired man appears on the scene with solutions to the inevitable problems. I believe it will not be called a Holy Roman Empire until after Europe has a war against the forces of fundamental Islam and what will be perceived as a divine intervention.

The final form of the revived Roman Empire may take place after the time of the disappearance of a large number of evangelical Christians (in the rapture) and the intervention of Jehovah for Israel against the Northern invasion (described in Ezekiel). Russia will side with the Moslem nations mentioned in Ezekiel and attempt to invade the land of Israel. The intervention of God against the Northern invaders will be a witness to the whole world that the Jewish God is the God of heaven.

This great religious awakening will be the foundation for a universal world church but she will be a harlot because she will commit fornication with demonic religions for the sake of religious unity. With the help of this "world church" a satanic man will take the remains of the basic structure of the European Union and reform it into the new Holy Roman Empire. This empire will be dominated by 10 nation states or more likely the new Roman Empire will be divided into ten regional zones. Later the world may also be divided into 10 regional zones (the Club of Rome think tank has presented just such a plan for the world). This power structure will evolve into a world government and it will be integrated with the emerging world church that will be head quartered at the Vatican in Rome. A prophetic picture of this merger is given in the book of Revelation where the Woman (the harlot world church) rides the Beast (the revived Roman empire).

The new Roman Empire and the leader that will arise will confirm and enforce a seven-year peace covenant with Israel and her now Moslem neighbors. In the middle of this seven-year period the man of sin (the Beast/Antichrist) will enter the rebuilt third Jewish temple, claim to be God and break the covenant with Israel. A false prophet will then appear with great signs and wonders and deception. His deceptive lies will give worldwide power to this man known as the Beast Antichrist in Bible prophecy. This man of sin is likely at some point to move the world government headquarters from Rome to Babylon and thus fulfill the remaining prophecies in scripture about the city of Babylon.

The Beast Antichrist and his false prophet will at that time claim that Jesus/Jehovah is a lesser deity and he will spearhead a worldwide counter revolution against the harlot world church. He will hate her because even in her harlotry she will refuse to worship the man of sin as God, and many in the end will not reject Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. This will begin the time of persecution spoken of in Revelation and Daniel for all followers of Jesus/Jehovah who dwell on the earth. In this time of their fiery trial many will turn from their harlotry and find salvation in Jesus.

Those who will not receive the truth to be saved will believe the lie and will follow the man of sin to war against Jerusalem and Jesus when He returns. Because they loved a lie and would not receive God's mercy in Jesus they will receive His wrath at His coming.

Signs of the time
The stage is being set for the new Holy Roman Empire with the modern day rise of the European Union:

•The Euro is now the official European currency and it will be primarily an electronic currency where the privilege to buy or sell will be granted by the state. It is likely that the Euro will soon replace the U.S. dollar as the primary world currency.
•The European Union has now been accepted by all 27 nations and it will appoint its first permanent national leaders in late 2009.
•Computer systems in Brussels have the capability to manage all the world's finances and government complexes have been built in Europe to house a large central government.
•North African states and Middle East states may soon join with the EU and expand its borders to the full extent of the old Roman Empire.
The European super state certainly is evolving in this generation and it is very likely that this same generation will see the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation fulfilled with this European Beast rising out of the sea (Gentiles).
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Joagbaje(m): 10:47pm On Mar 27, 2011
@Mabel

•The Euro is now the official European currency and it will be primarily an electronic currency where the privilege to buy or sell will be granted by the state. It is likely that the Euro will soon replace the U.S. dollar as the primary world currency.
•The European Union has now been accepted by all 27 nations and it will appoint its first permanent national leaders in late 2009.
•Computer systems in Brussels have the capability to manage all the world's finances and government complexes have been built in Europe to house a large central government.
•North African states and Middle East states may soon join with the EU and expand its borders to the full extent of the old Roman Empire.

I observed that since the economic crisis. And the instability of the crashed Dollar. Nations have been pushing for another more acceptable currency. They are still observing the american Dollar. While pressing background button.
Re: Who Wrote The Bible And Why It Matters by Azibalua(f): 11:53pm On Mar 27, 2011
Not only in Europe,check out africa
Pls read
http://www.afrol.com/articles/23035

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