naijaking1:

This was my original statement:

The point is that Igbo influence traverses Anioma and other currently Igbo speaking people west of the Niger.
A basic anthropological unity between Igbos and their immediate neighbours cannot be denied by any serious scholar. Igalas clearly have Igbo ancestry, or Igbos clearly have Igala ancestry. Same goes for Ibibios, Efiks, Idomas, Urobos, and yes Yorubas.

Once again, there should be no question that people who live close to each other do influence themselves by culture, language, marriage, etc. Many times these neighbours have same ancestry somewhere along the line. Igbos, Igalas, Ibibios, and others are no exception.

Not necessarily. The itsekiri language is more similar to the Ijebu and Igala than the mainstream yoruba. Also, the itsekiri neighbour is the Ijaws but are not from the same lineage.

eku_bear:

And why do you see more ethnic groups coming into being? This only really occurred in the past due to poor communication/long distances, etc. Thousands of years ago, your cousin Frank would leave central Nigeria, move down to South Africa and 1000 years later his descendants speak an entirely different language, have a very different culture. Today, that is very less likely to happen.

You're right, actually. I don't think people will consciously designate blended ethnic groups as new groups (lol, Tiger Woods' "Cablasian" nonsense kind of comes to mind here), as they would be well aware of the earlier groups from which they are descended.

PhysicsMHD:

1. Ok, I see the point about the Northern tribes, but I'm not sure that they all constitute distinct ethnic groups.
2. The Germanic tribes? Who were they "absorbed" by? (What large groups absorbed which smaller groups?)

Hrm, so this isn't quite the case of one large group absorbing a smaller one. More several small groups merging into one. But generally when this happens, one of the small subgroups seems to have a disproprotionate share of the culture. For the Germans, I'm not sure which group this is. For the Yoruba, it is probably Oyo language and culture. For Igbos, I guess Anambra?

3. Regarding a group numbering 100,000 getting absorbed, I don't really see how it can happen unless there is some sort of massive marriage drive between that small group and some nearby group.

Marriage isn't the only way. Language/culture is another way. The language/culture of the smaller group absorbs larger and larger percentages of the language/culture of the larger group. . . until eventually the distinction vanishes.

PhysicsMHD:

1. How high is a "high rate"?
2. How small are these "small groups"?
3. In the SW? Where? Lagos? Ondo? A few locations here and there can hardly lead to the complete assimilation of a group. It has to be on a substantial scale.
4. You say that in the East, Igbos have intermarried with "Igala, Ibibio, Ijaw, etc." but your basic assertion that "some of these groups will not exist in 500 years" seems to be rubbished by the fact that just these groups alone went from having populations of less than 300,000, 1 million, 1 million, respectively to having populations of over 2 million, 4 million, and nearly 5 million.
5. The Mongols did not get "absorbed" by the Han Chinese. That should be pretty easy to understand. A small segment of the Mongols ventured into Han China and were massively outnumbered and eventually became subsumed over time into the Han Chinese population. Similarly, a small segment of Edo people ventured into Yorubaland (Ondo, for example) and later became completely Yoruba over time. Yet the population of unmixed Edo still just kept increasing. The Mongols are alive and well in Mongolia.

1. I do not know the rate, because we do not any study for me to point to. I am just speculating, because I have seen a lot of intermarriage in my lifetime. Remember I am a product of an intermarriage.
2. Well some of these groups range from a mere hundred thousand to a few million.
3. As larger groups expand into other regions, they can displace other groups. Look at what happened to Lagos, which was originally part of your Benin Empire. Now it practically a Yoruba city.
4. In the smaller groups will be absorbed. It is only a matter of time. Do not be upset, this is how the world works and how societies change. Smaller groups get absorbed into bigger groups. An example is in Germany and France. When Rome collapsed, Franks invaded Gaul, but other groups invaded as well. However, the Franks became dominant and absorbed the other groups.
5. The Mongols who settled in China did get absorbed. As well as countless other groups whose names have been forgotten. You could not deny the Manchu who were practically absorbed by the dominant Han culture.

Physics, I think you are worried about your people being absorbed by a larger group. Let me give you a possible scenario, a huge influx of non-Edo move into Edo state and before long outnumber the Edo. How long do you think your people will be able to keep their identity? Especially if the other group has a stronger identity.

eku_bear:

Hrm, so this isn't quite the case of one large group absorbing a smaller one. More several small groups merging into one. But generally when this happens, one of the small subgroups seems to have a disproprotionate share of the culture. For the Germans, I'm not sure which group this is. For the Yoruba, it is probably Oyo language and culture. For Igbos, I guess Anambra?

I think the Germanic groups diverged from one ancestor population and that the groups that diverged developed their own unique variants on the general ancient Germanic culture, leading to them being designated as different tribes. They then reproduced at varying rates based on their prosperity and the success of their towns and cities, and some of them intermarried with other groups. But is there really much difference between the Angles and the Saxons? Which one had a disproportionate share of the Anglo-Saxon culture? It's not clear, so I don't think we can assume that one group's culture was was predominant.

Marriage isn't the only way. Language/culture is another way. The language/culture of the smaller group absorbs larger and larger percentages of the language/culture of the larger group. . . until eventually the distinction vanishes.

True. I was looking at "absorbed" as meaning actually becoming ethnically indistinguishable.

EzeUche:

3. As larger groups expand into other regions, they can displace other groups. Look at what happened to Lagos, which was originally part of your Benin Empire. Now it practically a Yoruba city.

Lagos was never inhabited by Benin ethnics, though? It paid tribute to the Benin Empire, but the ordinary people were Yoruba speakers? Contrast this with the rulers of the Benin Empire who I've heard spoke Yoruba as their court language. But since the people they ruled over weren't Yoruba speakers, the identity and culture of the nation did not change.

PhysicsMHD:

I think the Germanic groups diverged from one ancestor population and that the groups that diverged developed their own unique variants on the general ancient Germanic culture, leading to them being designated as different tribes. They then reproduced at varying rates based on their prosperity and the success of their towns and cities, and some of them intermarried with other groups. But is there really much difference between the Angles and the Saxons? Which one had a disproportionate share of the Anglo-Saxon culture? It's not clear, so I don't think we can assume that one group's culture was was predominant.

I was referring actually to the german tribes/states in Germany. . . Holy Roman Empire, unification of Germany, that sort of stuff. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

True. I was looking at "absorbed" as meaning actually becoming ethnically indistinguishable.

Ah, yeah that I wouldn't know. Even white American culture, if you meet a guy named Petrykowski somewhere in Boston, no matter how New England blue-blood he seems, Bostonian his accent, etc. . . you know that he has some ancestry from Poland. It really depends on whether you define ethnicity by blood or by culture.

EzeUche:

1. I do not know the rate, because we do not any study for me to point to. I am just speculating, because I have seen a lot of intermarriage in my lifetime. Remember I am a product of an intermarriage.
2. Well some of these groups range from a mere hundred thousand to a few million.
3. As larger groups expand into other regions, they can displace other groups. Look at what happened to Lagos, which was originally part of your Benin Empire. Now it practically a Yoruba city.
4. In the smaller groups will be absorbed. It is only a matter of time. Do not be upset, this is how the world works and how societies change. Smaller groups get absorbed into bigger groups. An example is in Germany and France. When Rome collapsed, Franks invaded Gaul, but other groups invaded as well. However, the Franks became dominant and absorbed the other groups.
5. The Mongols who settled in China did get absorbed. As well as countless other groups whose names have been forgotten. You could not deny the Manchu who were practically absorbed by the dominant Han culture.

Physics, I think you are worried about your people being absorbed by a larger group. Let me give you a possible scenario, a huge influx of non-Edo move into Edo state and before long outnumber the Edo. How long do you think your people will be able to keep their identity? Especially if the other group has a stronger identity.

1. Yeah, but intermarriage does not really seem to be the means by which a group could be absorbed. The rate of intermarriage required to "breed a group into oblivion" is unrealistically high.
2.  Which groups of a 100,000 or a few million do you think will not be around? You think Nigeria will be WAZOBIA? Like I said before, the actual population statistics strongly contradict that idea.
3.  As larger groups expand into other regions? Lagos was not populated by Benin people, it was at some point in time populated by a small segment of Benin royalty and/or military. The Yoruba did not expand into Lagos and wrest it from Benin.
4. I think your use of "absorb" was what threw me. Maybe what you mean to say is that a certain culture became dominant. You are talking of military invasions  and conquest now, but you were originally talking about what will happen in the next 500 years. I think in 500 years, groups would need to worry about whether or not they become too Westernized culturally and language wise, but not whether they get "absorbed" by the West.
5. The problem with the language/culture argument is that, with the exception of the North, every group only seems in danger of losing their culture and language to Western culture and language, rather than that of any larger group within the country, as the cultures and language of those larger groups are not in a position to wear away that of any other groups. The Hausa/Fulani clothing, for example, which some of Nigeria has adopted to their own styles, is that an example of losing one's culture when one chooses to wear it? Or rather, is it an example of adapting another group's culture to your own? The Yoruba gele head wrap, which much of southern Nigeria has adopted, does that wear away the cultures of those that adopt it? If somebody in Akoko-Edo wears agbada, his wife wears Yoruba clothing and gele, and they speak Yoruba, do you think they actually become Yoruba and no longer whatever group they were?

As for the scenario where a huge influx of non-Edo move into Edo state, I don't see how that would affect the identity of those in the state, and I don't see how you could measure the "strength" of one group's identity compared to another group. If anything, if the group were not large enough, it would be in grave danger of losing its identity to a group  in Edo state and adopting some Edo culture and language.

eku_bear:

Ah, yeah that I wouldn't know. Even white American culture, if you meet a guy named Petrykowski somewhere in Boston, no matter how New England blue-blood he seems, Bostonian his accent, etc. . . you know that he has some ancestry from Poland. It really depends on whether you define ethnicity by blood or by culture.

What about white American with Polish ancestry Anglicize his last name. This is quite common amongst European immigrants who came to the U.S., in which "native" Americans cannot pronounce their names. That caused them to change their last names for them to be easier to pronounce. Maybe the last name Petrykowski will be change to Petercrow or something of that nature.

Generations later, people would forget that their ancestor was Polish.

eku_bear:

Contrast this with the rulers of the Benin Empire who I've heard spoke Yoruba as their court language.

lol

You really believe this?  

PhysicsMHD:

lol

You really believe this?  

What language did they speak? That is what I've heard; I don't know what the facts are. Feel free to correct my wrong impression.

EzeUche:

What about white American with Polish ancestry Anglicize his last name. This is quite common amongst European immigrants who came to the U.S., in which "native" Americans cannot pronounce their names. That caused them to change their last names for them to be easier to pronounce. Maybe the last name Petrykowski will be change to Petercrow or something of that nature.

Generations later, people would forget that there ancestor was Polish.

I don't think people really forget? This is the sort of thing that gets passed on. Like, the Tinubu family in Lagos. . . I think they have some sort of Hausa ancestor? Yet they view themselves as Yoruba today. Isn't as if they've forgotten their origin. . .just their culture has changed.

Heck, even me. . . supposedly my distant ancestor is not originally from Ekiti. He is from somewhere else in Yorubaland. If I ask my father he can tell me the town that ancestor of ours is from (I cannot remember exactly off the top of my head.) But today, we are purely Ekiti.

ekt_bear:

What language did they speak? That is what I've heard; I don't know what the facts are. Feel free to correct my wrong impression.

They spoke the Benin language (Edo). The claim that they spoke a  "Yoruba Palace dialect" is spurious. Nobody that ever visited Benin ever noted such a thing.



http://books.google.com/books?id=9kcCZIdxXpsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=great+benin+its+art+customs+horrors&hl=en&ei=I3yeTeDyLpK3tgfR7KmGAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=aku&f=false

^^^^
A European writer who visited the king's court and made extensive, detailed notes about the court and the people, and who was aware of the Yoruba languages erroneously concluded that the language of the city could be grouped as a Yoruba language, based on a (doubtful) tale about it being understood as far into Yorubaland as Abeokuta, But tellingly, he makes no mention of the king's language being distinct from that of the city.

eku_bear:

Thousands of years ago, your cousin Frank would leave central Nigeria, move down to South Africa and 1000 years later his descendants speak an entirely different language, have a very different culture. Today, that is very less likely to happen.

^^Doesn't need to be that long or that far. For example: The town of Ebu in Delta state was founded by some Igala hunters. The form of Igala spoken there has diverged somewhat from that spoken in Kogi state.

eku_bear:

For the Germans, I'm not sure which group this is.

^^Prussians. Otto von Bismarck forcibly wielded the various Germanic states into one entity under the leadership of Prussia, the largest and most militaristic German state but excluded the Austrians and those in Switzerland. . .

This entire thread reminds me of this blog.

http://ghonsie-sse..com/

She talks about foreign perceptions of Nigeria and also Nigerian's perception of Nigeria. I think everyone should check it out especially "They call us apes? well what do you call yourself" and "Black Gold (Struggle for the niger Delta)"