One of the false teachings of Jehovah witness organisation is that spirit gets annihilated at death. However, what does the bible actually say, I m going to be using an unexpected verse of the bible and that is Hebrews 12vv23.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The writer of hebrews is literally saying the spirits of just men are in heaven having being perfected.
Who are these just men? They are people who dies in faith before the coming of Christ, people like Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, sarah david, Solomon, deborah etc

When they died their soul was in hell not hell fire. Hell was the general abode of the dead before the coming of Christ, because of their faith in God their name were written in God's book of remembrance and when Jesus came and died he went to hell to show himself to them, he preached to them and after receiving him as their long awaited saviour Jesus rose along with them.

Some of them appeared to many people when Jesus rose from the grave, having being made perfect they are in heaven.

You're not serious!
Do you think it's by jumping from one topic to another that you're going to convince honest hearted and sincere individuals not to learn the TRUTH?
Guy stop this childish behaviour and think of a better way to make disciples for your God not just going about advertising Jehovah's Witnesses thinking you're tarnishing their image.
For your information it's people's attitude and the way they often vilify this friendly group that moved me into picking interest in them.
So stop deceiving yourself!

livingchrist:
One of the false teachings of Jehovah witness organisation is that spirit gets annihilated at death. However, what does the bible actually say, I m going to be using an unexpected verse of the bible and that is Hebrews 12vv23.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The writer of hebrews is literally saying the spirits of just men are in heaven having being perfected.
Who are these just men? They are people who dies in faith before the coming of Christ, people like Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, sarah david, Solomon, deborah etc

When they died their soul was in hell not hell fire. Hell was the general abode of the dead before the coming of Christ, because of their faith in God their name were written in God's book of remembrance and when Jesus came and died he went to hell to show himself to them, he preached to them and after receiving him as their long awaited saviour Jesus rose along with them.

Some of them appeared to many people when Jesus rose from the grave, having being made perfect they are in heaven.

However, the new world translation twisted Hebrews 12vv23 to mean different thing.

The greek interlinear is given below

New world translation wrote the spiritual lives of righteous men made perfect

while

the real translation wrote the spirits of just men made perfect.

Obviously any place in the bible that does not favour there doctrine they change it.

Just as the changed John 1 vv 1 in other to deny Jesus Deity.

Christianity is a selfish religion, sometimes I am confused about the teachings because it never tell us what will happen to Hindus, Buddhists and so on after death, why will God keep those before Jesus in hell, is it their fault to come before Jesus? Did they created themselves ? Christians makes atheists lost faith in God aswear.

Spirits are indestructible. That's why hell fire comes in to question. Fire can't burn not kill a Spirit

omoiyamayor:
Christianity is a selfish religion, sometimes I am confused about the teachings because it never tell us what will happen to Hindus, Buddhists and so on after death, why will God keep those before Jesus in hell, is it their fault to come before Jesus? Did they created themselves ? Christians makes atheists lost faith in God aswear.

The bolded is a misconception borne out of hate. It's a free world and you can chose what to believe or worship.

Hello,

livingchrist:

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The writer of hebrews is literally saying the spirits of just men are in heaven having being perfected.

So these spirits of just men, how are they in heaven? Like spirit beings or angels? In other words, are they conscious? And lastly, what are they doing in heaven?

livingchrist:

Who are these just men? They are people who dies in faith before the coming of Christ, people like Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, sarah david, Solomon, deborah etc

Adam, died in faith? This is certainly strange, a new one.

At what point did Adam repent, was forgiven and died saved?

livingchrist:

When they died their soul was in hell not hell fire. Hell was the general abode of the dead before the coming of Christ

So where is the abode of the dead today?

livingchrist:

Some of them appeared to many people when Jesus rose from the grave, having being made perfect they are in heaven.

Please provide scriptural proofs.

omoiyamayor:
Christianity is a selfish religion, sometimes I am confused about the teachings because it never tell us what will happen to Hindus, Buddhists and so on after death, why will God keep those before Jesus in hell, is it their fault to come before Jesus? Did they created themselves ? Christians makes atheists lost faith in God aswear.

Hell means grave, it is the place where souls dead people go after death.

However, people who reject God, living wicked lives will be be tormented in hell but those who accepted and trust in God with their lives as evidence of the faith in God were in hell but they had peace all this happened before Jesus came.


Before Jesus came God has being talking to every man through their conscience and through the things he created, so God has never being hidden from the beginning, those who accept and trust in the one true God yahweh would be lead to christ.

BritishAirways:
Spirits are indestructible. That's why hell fire comes in to question. Fire can't burn not kill a Spirit

False. Here is Jesus speaking:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28)

The "spirit in man" or souls can be destroyed.

To claimed spirits are indestructible means they're immortals. But here's the truth:

Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light (1 Timothy 6:16)

Only God is immortal and indestructible.

Splinz:
Hello,



So these spirits of just men, how are they in heaven? Like spirit beings or angels? In other words, are they conscious? And lastly, what are they doing in heaven?

Human spirit is not same as angelic spirit.

Adam, died in faith? This is certainly strange, a new one.

At what point did Adam repent, was forgiven and died saved?

The evidence was in God making a garment for them to cover their unclothedness It has a spiritual meaning of them being saved.

So where is the abode of the dead today?



Please provide scriptural proofs.

the souls of the wicked remains in hell but the righteous goes to heaven to be with christ.

Paul was in between two choices either to be away from the flesh and to be with Jesus or to stay and labour for the church.

Philippians 1:23-24 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

livingchrist:
Human spirit is not same as angelic spirit.

Sorry, that doesn't answer the question asked. Let me repeat it:

What are the "spirits of just men" doing in heaven? Are they living as spirit beings, angels or humans? Are they conscious? Just, how are they in heaven?

livingchrist:

The evidence was in God making a garment for them to cover their unclothedness It has a spiritual meaning of them being saved.

This doesn't even fall under 'conjecture'. What you're saying here is pure fabrication.

Shocking evidence.

livingchrist:

the souls of the wicked remains in hell but the righteous goes to heaven to be with christ.

If there's a resurrection of the dead and you're claiming that the righteous are with Christ, does that mean that the resurrection has occurred already?

Splinz:


False. Here is Jesus speaking: The "spirit in man" or souls can be destroyed.
To claimed spirits are indestructible means they're immortals. But here's the truth:

Only God is immortal and indestructible.

I follow the Bible differently, I chose what to follow and what not to follow

Splinz:


Sorry, that doesn't answer the question asked. Let me repeat it:
What are the "spirits of just men" doing in heaven? Are they living as spirit beings, angels or humans? Are they conscious? Just, how are they in heaven?

I have answered you. What are they doing in heaven? They are waiting for their reward.

This doesn't even fall under 'conjecture'. What you're saying here is pure fabrication.

Shocking evidence.

then it is your loss.

If there's a resurrection of the dead and you're claiming that the righteous are with Christ, does that mean that the resurrection has occurred already?

It does not. Resurrection has to do with restoring spirit and body back together.

Sebi you think you've got sound teaching to speak against JWs!

I'm telling you that amongst your trinitarian brethren you will continue to be divided on doctrines {Luke 11:23} enjoy the show!

No, that's false. Samuel's spirit was summoned by the witch on Saul's demand.
Plus resurrection is about the spirit body.

livingchrist:
I have answered you. What are they doing in heaven? They are waiting for their reward.

Since the resurrection has not occurred yet, it means the dead are still what? Dead and in their graves (John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2, Psalm 6:5).

The Hebrews you quoted does not say the spirits of just men made perfect are "in heaven" but rather they are, "written in heaven". The names of these saints are written in heaven, not that they themselves are there. Another good example showing that the saved have their names written in the book of life which is obviously in heaven, is Revelation 20:15.

Furthermore, both the names of the saved and their rewards or inheritance are "reserved or kept in heaven" (1 Peter 1:4), which Christ will bring at His appearing (Revelation 22:12).

Paul expounded on the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:12-58. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, at the appearing of Christ, the dead are the first to rise followed by those still alive. This further supports the fact that the dead, all along, were in their graves waiting for the resurrection.

This was what I expected of you, to explain in details so that viewers or listeners can better appreciate it.

livingchrist:

It does not. Resurrection has to do with restoring spirit and body back together.

livingchrist:

then it is your loss.

On the contrary, your fabrication profits me nothing.

Splinz:


Since the resurrection has not occurred yet, it means the dead are still what? Dead and in their graves (John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2, Psalm 6:5).

it is the body that is in the grave not the spirit.

The Hebrews you quoted does not say the spirits of just men made perfect are "in heaven" but rather they are, "written in heaven". The names of these saints are written in heaven, not that they themselves are there. Another good example showing that the saved have their names written in the book of life which is obviously in heaven, is Revelation 20:15.

vv 22 confirmed that they are in heaven

Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Furthermore, both the names of the saved and their rewards or inheritance are "reserved or kept in heaven" (1 Peter 1:4), which Christ will bring at His appearing (Revelation 22:12).

Paul expounded on the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:12-58. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, at the appearing of Christ, the dead are the first to rise followed by those still alive. This further supports the fact that the dead, all along, were in their graves waiting for the resurrection.

This was what I expected of you, to explain in details so that viewers or listeners can better appreciate it.

their rewards are heaven but can only be given to them at the coming of Christ whe they are resurrected. You have not said anything.
It is the body of the dead made of dust that are in the grave but the spirits of the righteous are in heaven as confirmed by hebrews.

On the contrary, your fabrication profits me nothing.

you cannot understand spiritual things so it's your loss.

livingchrist:
it is the body that is in the grave not the spirit.

You mean the body of David for instance, if his grave is dug today, will be found inside?

livingchrist:

vv 22 confirmed that they are in heaven
Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Careless reading.

Keywords here are: 1. Mount Sion 2. Heavenly Jerusalem. Where is Mount Sion and Jerusalem? Are they in heaven? Even babies in the faith knows that these are physical locations right here on earth.

Here's help:

Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Revelation 21:2)

The heavenly Jerusalem, Mount Sion or city of God will be right here on earth. It's "coming down" in the sense that Christ is the One bringing it at His coming. Bible prophecy has it that when Christ appeared, He will sit on the throne of his father, David, of which throne is in Jerusalem, the city of king David.

So Hebrew 12:22 does not confirmed that the dead are in heaven. Again, that is you carelessly reading scripture.

livingchrist:

you cannot understand spiritual things so it's your loss.

You mean that fabrication of yours is a spiritual thing? You're very funny.

I repeat, your fabrication profits me nothing.

Splinz:


You mean the body of David for instance, if his grave is dug today, will be found inside?

It doesnt matter so far it is where the body was buried,

Careless reading.

Keywords here are: 1. Mount Sion 2. Heavenly Jerusalem. Where is Mount Sion and Jerusalem? Are they in heaven? Even babies in the faith knows that these are physical locations right here on earth.

Here's help: The heavenly Jerusalem, Mount Sion or city of God will be right here on earth. It's "coming down" in the sense that Christ is the One bringing it at His coming. Bible prophecy has it that when Christ appeared, He will sit on the throne of his father, David, of which throne is in Jerusalem, the city of king David.

So Hebrew 12:22 does not confirmed that the dead are in heaven. Again, that is you carelessly reading scripture.

you are ignorant and yet think you know anything.

see how you are confused, you saw heavenly Jerusalem and you are still asking if Jerusalem is in heaven?

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

There is Jerusalem in heaven already, it is this jerusalem that will come to the new earth.

You mean that fabrication of yours is a spiritual thing? You're very funny.

I repeat, your fabrication profits me nothing.

then it is your loss.

livingchrist:

It doesnt matter so far it is where the body was buried, you are ignorant and yet think you know anything. see how you are confused, you saw heavenly Jerusalem and you are still asking if Jerusalem is in heaven?
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
There is Jerusalem in heaven already, it is this jerusalem that will come to the new earth.
then it is your loss.

Gradually you're learning from JWs because even though your stubbornness is a stumbling block to your spiritual growth and insight you can still see the light!

I told you that instead of tagging JWs on the topic of your thread which serves as a means of telling everyone beforehand the group you want to attack, why not present your argument without tagging JWs? Then try to see if you're right thinking it's only JWs that holds a different viewpoint from yours!

Now see your life, you intended to attack JWs again because the below post revealed the group you have in mind but see those coming up against you, are these ones also JWs?

Well as i've said:
"enjoy the show"

livingchrist:

One of the false teachings of Jehovah witness organisation is that spirit gets annihilated at death. However, what does the bible actually say, I m going to be using an unexpected verse of the bible and that is Hebrews 12vv23

livingchrist:
It doesnt matter so far it is where the body was buried,

All of a sudden, the body doesn't matter anymore.

livingchrist:

you are ignorant and yet think you know anything.
see how you are confused, you saw heavenly Jerusalem and you are still asking if Jerusalem is in heaven?
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 4:26 does not mean a literal Jerusalem is in heaven, but should be understood and interpreted the same way it is the "mother of us all".

Was it Jerusalem that gave birth to you? So how is Jerusalem a mother? See, now we know who is ignorant and confused.

Like I said earlier, you read carelessly.

livingchrist:

There is Jerusalem in heaven already, it is this jerusalem that will come to the new earth.

Yes, just like our mother is in heaven.

livingchrist:

then it is your loss.

It appears you have problems with comprehension. How will I tell you that your blatant invention profits me nothing, for you to understand?

Splinz:


All of a sudden, the body doesn't matter anymore.

where did I say the body doesnt matter?
The grave is where the body is buried, it doesnt matter if the body has decayed.

Galatians 4:26 does not mean a literal Jerusalem is in heaven, but should be understood and interpreted the same way it is the "mother of us all".

Was it Jerusalem that gave birth to you? So how is Jerusalem a mother? See, now we know who is ignorant and confused.

Like I said earlier, you read carelessly.



Yes, just like our mother is in heaven.

you are actually very ignorant, In the bible Zion is a city which contains people, the citizens of zion are actually the children of zion.

Psalms 149:2
Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.

The Jerusalem in heaven is the mother of all Christians because that is where they belong.

It appears you have problems with comprehension. How will I tell you that your blatant invention profits me nothing, for you to understand?

your comprehension problem not mine.

God is indestructible . The spirit is indestructible. Humans are God spirit within a physical body made of dust..when the body dies, the spirit returns to God who owns it, the body returns to dust where it was taken....default settings.

"I am one seeing my self divided. I am 2,4 and 8...(the egyptian book of the death..)

livingchrist:
where did I say the body doesnt matter?
The grave is where the body is buried, it doesnt matter if the body has decayed.

And the spirit is buried where, heaven?

livingchrist:

you are actually very ignorant, In the bible Zion is a city which contains people, the citizens of zion are actually the children of zion.

Oh, you now suddenly know that Zion is a city which contains people? Do you then accept that you were either ignorant or trying to deceive undiscerning minds when you passed off Hebrews 12:22 as Zion, a city "in heaven"?

Of course, was the city supposed to housed terrestrial spirits? So Mount Zion is a city in Jerusalem, right here on earth and not "in heaven".

So how are citizens or inhabitants of Zion "children"? Since your understanding of the phrase "Jerusalem above" or heavenly Jerusalem means there's Jerusalem in heaven, of course interpreted literally, then also interpret Jerusalem as a "mother" literally.

Are you seeing who is ignorant.

livingchrist:

Psalms 149:2
Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
The Jerusalem in heaven is the mother of all Christians because that is where they belong.

How do they belong there, how did it birthed these children? Did Jerusalem gave birth to them literally just like there's a literal Jerusalem in heaven?

livingchrist:

your comprehension problem not mine.

Now you know that your invention is useless to me. Glad you're learning.

Splinz:


And the spirit is buried where, heaven?



Oh, you now suddenly know that Zion is a city which contains people? Do you then accept that you were either ignorant or trying to deceive undiscerning minds when you passed off Hebrews 12:22 as Zion, a city "in heaven"?

Of course, was the city supposed to housed terrestrial spirits? So Mount Zion is a city in Jerusalem, right here on earth and not "in heaven".

So how are citizens or inhabitants of Zion "children"? Since your understanding of the phrase "Jerusalem above" or heavenly Jerusalem means there's Jerusalem in heaven, of course interpreted literally, then also interpret Jerusalem as a "mother" literally.

Are you seeing who is ignorant.

you lack comprehension.



[/quote]How do they belong there, how did it birthed these children? Did Jerusalem gave birth to them literally just like there's a literal Jerusalem in heaven?



Now you know that your invention is useless to me. Glad you're learning. [/quote] Did Zion literally birthed children? So because zion having children is figurative so zion must also be figurative? You see how you are confused?
Heavenly Jerusalem means Jeruselem in heaven and being a mother to all christian means all of God's people belongs there, just as earthly zion has children which means earthly zion is city that has people.

livingchrist:
Did Zion literally birthed children? So because zion having children is figurative so zion must also be figurative?

The questions are meant for you. Why throwing it back at me? Answer.

Oh, so Zion, as a mother, is figurative? If yes, how come that phrase is figurative but "heavenly Jerusalem or Jerusalem above" is literal?

Splinz:


The questions are meant for you. Why throwing it back at me? Answer.

Oh, so Zion, as a mother, is figurative? If yes, how come that phrase is figurative but "heavenly Jerusalem or Jerusalem above" is literal?

you are the one that said heavenly Jerusalem is figurative, so answer the questions.

Trying to be clever by half.
Sentence like mr James has kicked the bucket
It is the phrase "kicked the bucket" that is figurative not mr James.
You simply replace kicked the bucket with died so that it becomes literal.

Jerusalem which is above and is the mother of us all
@ bolded can simply be changed into literal meaning when "mother of us all" is changed to "where we all belong". In the same way children of Jerusalem can simply be changed to inhabitant of Jerusalem in these cases, the subject describe real person and places.

Joel 3:6
The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

The burden is on you to prove that Jerusalem is NOT a real place.

livingchrist:
you are the one that said heavenly Jerusalem is figurative, so answer the questions.

That is right. Just like it is a "mother".

livingchrist:

Jerusalem which is above and is the mother of us all
@ bolded can simply be changed into literal meaning when "mother of us all" is changed to "where we all belong". In the same way children of Jerusalem can simply be changed to inhabitant of Jerusalem in these cases, the subject describe real person and places.

You're not listening to yourself at all.

I thought I was the one saying Zion or mother, heavenly Jerusalem are all figurative, with actual meaning being places here on earth? How then are you changing "mother of us all" into literal meaning? Does that not mean it was figurative before?

You're confused, and it is a great one.

Splinz:


All of a sudden, the body doesn't matter anymore.



Galatians 4:26 does not mean a literal Jerusalem is in heaven, but should be understood and interpreted the same way it is the "mother of us all".

Was it Jerusalem that gave birth to you? So how is Jerusalem a mother? See, now we know who is ignorant and confused.

Like I said earlier, you read carelessly.



Yes, just like our mother is in heaven.



It appears you have problems with comprehension. How will I tell you that your blatant invention profits me nothing, for you to understand?

confused splinz, these are you words.
@ bolded you are one that said Jerusalem in heaven should not be taken literally because "mother of all" should not be taken literally.
Going by your logic since God is called a rock and an upright God therefore "God is upright" is figurative since "God being a rock is figurative" or there is no unrighteousness in God is figurative not literal.

Psalms 92:15
To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

Blind man.

So

is it true that human's spirit perish at death?

livingchrist:
you are the one that said heavenly Jerusalem is figurative, so answer the questions.

That is right. Just like it is a "mother".

livingchrist post=104425774:

Jerusalem which is above and is the mother of us all
@ bolded can simply be changed into literal meaning when "mother of us all" is changed to "where we all belong". In the same way children of Jerusalem can simply be changed to inhabitant of Jerusalem in these cases, the subject describe real person and places.

You're not listening to yourself at all.

I thought I was the one saying Zion or mother, heavenly Jerusalem are all figurative, with actual meaning being places here on earth? How then are you changing "mother of us all" into literal meaning? Does that not mean it was figurative before?

You're confused, and it is a great one.

How does what is up here of any correlation with the confusion you have down?

You see, it's a great confusion.

livingchrist:
confused splinz, these are you words.
@ bolded you are one that said Jerusalem in heaven should not be taken literally because "mother of all" should not be taken literally.
Going by your logic since God is called a rock and an upright God therefore "God is upright" is figurative since "God being a rock is figurative" or there is no unrighteousness in God is figurative not literal.

Psalms 92:15
To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

Blind man.