Olu317:
I understand your angle. However, many signs and artifacts of Yoruba are mysterious which made it impossible to be isolated from the rest of the world. Another example is Hieroglyph on the Opa Oranmiyan staff at ILE IFE. have you seen it?,It is written for us to unravel the depth of these great men that tactically understand Birds movement, animals reaction,use of drum to send information across etc. These people are not just AFRICAN SAVAGES. There is a purpose for everything. We children of such a great man and great followers ought to do more discoveries than what they did and excel beyond expectation

What is now called Opa Oranmiyan is just one of the many obelisks in Ife but it is the tallest/longest. This same opa oranmiyan obelisk with nails hammered in it shares the same markings and patterns with other shorter obelisk found around Ife. This obelisks when dated showed it was made around 350BCE which means Ife existed long before 350BCE - this means Ile Ife existed while Israel existed, both cut off from and independent of each other and neither was an offshoot of the other.

Apart from inscriptions found on these obelisks, the writings found in Ilase, Oluorogbo's town now occupied by kin kinfolks headed by Obalase are also worthy of mention and are still being worked on to be deciphered.

Olu317:
Obatala and Odua lineage were the two groups that had issue and war broke out. My dear brother, little has been said about these wars. Some ancient tales about Yoruba are shrouded with myth. Too many of it. From the account of so many scholars even Yoruba Professor Ogunmakin,findings etc showed supporters of Odua and Obatala engaged in a civil war. ILE IFE is never the beginning of Creation. Take for instance, Egypt is far far older. Have you searched for IBN BATTÛTA, A MAHLIAN TRAVELLER'S ACCOUNT around 13th century?There were no king proper but a group of leaders of the settlements. Odua perfected it .Do you hear about the history of OTUN's account? He was not a son of Odua but a benefactor. The story talked about emerging from the Sea. Now tell me,How can one emerged from the Sea without coming on a boat or ship? Do you know that Obatala lineage is link with antelope and elephants sacrifice as well as flowers (plants)and odua lineage is linked with Ram and hippopotamus sacrifices. Does this mean anything to you? Who are the people who uses such in the past in the ancient times ? Egypt perfected writing around 3000 years ago, the SUMERIANS in the Middle East around 5000 years ago. And you expect people to have lived from the beginning of the world at ILE IFE. practically FALSE. I am using the five method I have deduced -Oral account , Middle East war account , Bible, Islamic war account and archaeological . Tell if people had lived before 5000 years and developed writing before 5000 years , when did the Egyptians story begun in comparison to the assumed ILE IFE? which one is older among the two ? So many things yet to be unravelled

Wow, all of these are very false and not even in the tiniest bit in existence.

This imaginative composition is going too far.

absoluteSuccess:


My brother, I'm from the Yoruba group that held that Oduduwa was a woman, as a result, Yoruba tradition of Oduduwa coming to Ile-Ife is not a historical fort with me.

There is how ancient Yoruba record their history, how intelligent are we to d-ecrypt such record? I know of someone here who never tried out a thread on Yoruba but is sure of what happened to Obatala.

This is the mythical Oduduwa - the Oduduwa found in creation and moral stories woven around deities.

The person who re-shaped Ife was a man. Bringing something new that enveloped the entire civilization of Ife earned him the title of Oduduwa - the name of the earth creation deity in Ifa.

IranjeIdita:


Wow, all of these are very false and not even in the tiniest bit in existence.

This imaginative composition is going too far.

STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED....HOW MANY DYNASTY HAD RULED EGYPT BEFORE ALEXANDER GREAT CAME? DO YOU KNOW IBO LANGUAGE IS OLDER THAN YORUBA LANGUAGE? DO YOU WHERE THE OLDEST HUMAN SPECIE WAS FOUND IN AFRICA? DO YOU KNOW THAT THE CORE BANTU GROUP HAD TRACES AROUND CENTRAL NIGERIA(ADAMAWA AXIS)? DO YOU KNOW THE WORD BA' AAL WAS USED IN ANCIENT CANAAN? DON'T EVEN THINK I BELONG TO THOSE SEEKING VISA TO A TROUBLED PART OF THE WORLD. FAR FROM IT. I LOVE THE PLACE WHERE MY FOREFATHERS WERE FORCED TO MIGRATE TOWARDS.

IranjeIdita:


What is now called Opa Oranmiyan is just one of the many obelisks in Ife but it is the tallest/longest. This same opa oranmiyan obelisk with nails hammered in it shares the same markings and patterns with other shorter obelisk found around Ife. This obelisks when dated showed it was made around 350BCE which means Ife existed long before 350BCE - this means Ile Ife existed while Israel existed, both cut off from and independent of each other and neither was an offshoot of the other.

Apart from inscriptions found on these obelisks, the writings found in Ilase, Oluorogbo's town now occupied by kin kinfolks headed by Obalase are also worthy of mention and are still being worked on to be deciphered.

ARE YOU SURE ABOUT OPA ORANMIYAN? KINDLY DON'T GIVE AN INFORMATION YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. THE RESH AND YOD OF OPA ORANMIYAN OBELISK HAS BEEN DECRYPTED. And the Obelisk is centuries older than the period of oranyan period and not 350BC or whatever date you people claim .

IranjeIdita:


He never wore an armor, at least none that we know of or see today. In fact, if amour in your context of use refers to metal/iron worn on the body then it would have been Ogun wearing armour or Ogun making armour for Ooni but Ogun was never in Oduduwa's team.

Oduduwa in proper Ife history led the insurrection but never fought any battle. How could he have worn armour when he was in the safety of Idio town or the palace?

If Oduduwa wore armour, every Ooni elect would have to do the same during coronation processions. Every Ooni goes to Oke Ora to do/wear the same things Oduduwa & his people did and armour wearing isn't part of it.

Account said he wore protective layer on his head. Were you looking for a twenty first century Armour on his head? Of course not. There is a part I won't reveal as regards the armor. But he did....

Olu317:
Are you sure dear? I disagree. [b]Eluyemi is not part of Odua patrilineal . How can he know much? Have you heard the tale about Odua complexion[/b]You can only share what you have and nothing more. The oldest human presence in YORUBA LAND IS 9000 years and it has never been proven to be YORUBA ANCESTRY. What are you now telling me or those that knows migration happened? have done any research on Yoruba than the whites? THE YORUBA ARTS AND TRADITION SHOWED IT ALL. Then I didn't at anywhere shared that It was at ILE IFE THE TWO MIGRATION TOOK PLACE. Far from it!. At arrival at ILE IFE IT WAS THREE HEAVY WAVES MIGRATIONS and later few ones. Take for instance. Matthew wentforth who claimed he was born in Lagos but he was from FALASAS(Israel)in Ethiopia. Kindly expose me and other learners to these info why would an ISRAELI CAME TO YORUBA LAND? . I am not on competition with you though but trying to expose the truth as I know it. Then on secrecy of some hidden facts, I do not have what you seek but if you know ILE IFE.......YOU WILL TREMBLE ..IFE OOOOOOOOOOYEEEEEE

Oduduwa, the human, has become so spiritualized, mythicized and embellished so much and these unrealistic stuff form the basis of the conclusion you are painting about the man.

From the other thread I guessed your ancestry was connected to Giesi.

A quick look at Giesi's history shows he was a child of a female. He was the son of Ogboru's daughter. Yes, the Ogboru that founded Ife Odan and the progenitor of Sijuade's compound/royal line.

Lafogido (Oranmiyan's grandson), Osinkola (Lafogido's son), Ogboru (Osinkola's brother & Giesi's grandfather ) & Giesi (connected to Owa Luusi) were all Oranmiyan's offsprings - very distant to Oduduwa if you ask me.

From my personal further research to be sure Owa Luusi was from Giesi house, I found that Owa Luusi's folks migrated out of Ife truly but the connection between Owaluusi & Giesi may have been because Ajamaye came to Ife to fight in the Modakeke war which happened during the time of the present Ooni's grandfather Ojaja the first also known as 'Ayikiti ninu aran' which earned him the name Ayikiti.

From the Oriki of the present Ooni, it says 'mo nlo re igbo dey omo Luusi' - I am going to wait in the forest/bushes for the child of Luusi. This excerpt only states the Ayikiti's exploits during the war and the fact that he conscripted Omo Luusi (the child of Luusi - prince Ajamaye) into his army to fight the Modakeke.

In simpler terms, Ayikiti (Ooni Ogunwusi's) grandfather and Ajamaye (Omo Owa Luusi) were war comrades and that is where it stops.

Your patrilineal claim to Oduduwa is what confuses me a bit.

- is it based on your people's emigration from Ife? A number of thrones and cities were founded by Ife emigrants most who were not from ife royal families but hunters, artisans, curious travellers etc.

- is this based on the fact that Ajamaye fought on Ayikiti's team against Modakeke?

- Or do you assume you are connected to Giesi Royal house?

If the latter is what you've latched on to then keep in mind that Giesi himself was of matrilineal line. And also, Oranmiyan was the progenitor of the ruling houses not Oduduwa. Oduduwa comes into the picture as grandfather & great grandfather, quite distant.

Only those from Idio house have direct claims to Oduduwa. Every Ooni is much more connected to Oranmiyan than Oduduwa and Oonis' claims to Oduduwa are no more than that of Eluyemi and any Yoruba son & daughter who regards Oduduwa as the progenitor.

Professor Eluyemi was a an initiate of Orisa in Ife, an initiate of Ife traditional Ogboni, he became the Apena of the Ogboni, and a traditional chief in Ife. If you know not, initiating into Orisa or being from an orisa lineage earns you surface information except you initiate into Ogboni then you get all the information you need but then bound in secrecy.

Your claim to Oduduwa is not solid if you are not from Idio. Your claim here is surface at best and what anyone can claim.

Cheers.

Olu317:
Account said he wore protective layer on his head. Were you looking for a twenty first century Armour on his head? Of course not. There is a part I won't reveal as regards the armor. But he did....

Lol protective layer on his head and that is armour?

I do not know about any protective layer and even if he had worn anything on his head it must have been when he became King - a position that requires compulsory head covering.

Olu317:
ARE YOU SURE ABOUT OPA ORANMIYAN? KINDLY DON'T GIVE AN INFORMATION YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. THE RESH AND YOD OF OPA ORANMIYAN OBELISK HAS BEEN DECRYPTED. And the Obelisk is centuries older than the period of oranyan period and not 350BC or whatever date you people claim .

Completely sure.

It has never been decrypted. The same markings are found on shorter obelisks around Ife.

The obelisk was not century before Oranmiyan was born (10/11th AD), it was dated to as far back as between 500 to 800 AD.

I was meaning to write all the artifacts found place Ife back into 350BCE.

IranjeIdita:



I can mention the names of everybody in that picture. Some are alive, some have passed and some who are not part from Idita have been bannished.

That is a stool (withholding the local name) used by Yeyelorisa (Yeemo's representative) to sit. The stool is used twice during the festival - when Yeemo (Yeyelorisa) took (takes) omi ero & other stuff to the Ooni where the Orunmila (Araba Agbaya) & his 15 awo olodu merindinlogun, the otun ife & Mode'wa are also present.

Now, what have you assumed that to be in Israel.

This is just a seat, there's igba obatala carried by an Arugba.

Iranje,
Thanks for that info. No, not Israel, Ethiopia. They have similar article but i dont what theirs is called.

IranjeIdita:


This is the mythical Oduduwa - the Oduduwa found in creation and moral stories woven around deities.

The person who re-shaped Ife was a man. Bringing something new that enveloped the entire civilization of Ife earned him the title of Oduduwa - the name of the earth creation deity in Ifa.

Wow, good of you bro. I subscribe to this female Oduduwa as the real deal, and the man version is the mythical figure around whom the hammitic theory was formed.

His existence is not supported by any Yoruba myth, but only in written record that came with Yorubas contact with the West in the 19th century. I believe the old myths.

Olu317:
STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED....HOW MANY DYNASTY HAD RULED EGYPT BEFORE ALEXANDER GREAT CAME? DO YOU KNOW IBO LANGUAGE IS OLDER THAN YORUBA LANGUAGE? DO YOU WHERE THE OLDEST HUMAN SPECIE WAS FOUND IN AFRICA? DO YOU KNOW THAT THE CORE BANTU GROUP HAD TRACES AROUND CENTRAL NIGERIA(ADAMAWA AXIS)? DO YOU KNOW THE WORD BA' AAL WAS USED IN ANCIENT CANAAN? DON'T EVEN THINK I BELONG TO THOSE SEEKING VISA TO A TROUBLED PART OF THE WORLD. FAR FROM IT. I LOVE THE PLACE WHERE MY FOREFATHERS WERE FORCED TO MIGRATE TOWARDS.

I am not interested in Egypt or Canaanite.

My lineage had nothing to do with antelope, elephant and flower sacrifice.

I know for sure Idio people are not linked to Ram & hippopotamus sacrifices too.

absoluteSuccess:


Wow, good of you bro. I subscribe to this female Oduduwa as the real deal, and the man version is the mythical figure around whom the hammitic theory was formed.

His existence is not supported by any Yoruba myth, but only in written record that came with Yorubas contact with the West in the 19th century. I believe the old myths.

The female version is only found in Ifa said to have given birth to Olokun by Obatala.

Who we call Oduduwa the actual human was a man & did exist in Ife.

Cheers.

MetaPhysical:


Iranje,
Thanks for that info. No, not Israel, Ethiopia. They have similar article but i dont what theirs is called.

OK sir.

This stool is possibly widespread across civilizations in the world, it is nothing. Except they are used for the same ceremony by similar people.

IranjeIdita:


The female version is only found in Ifa said to have given birth to Olokun by Obatala.

Who we call Oduduwa the actual human was a man & did exist in Ife.

Cheers.

Yes, it is this Oduduwa that is the Alaje in Ado Odo. It is mythical figure in Frank Willet's work, but to the Awori she was the companion of Onitako, who built Ado as one of the adaludos.

At least its an indigenous attempts at Yoruba history by Yoruba themselves without help from external influence.

absoluteSuccess:


Yes, it is this Oduduwa that is the Alaje in Ado Odo. It is mythical figure in Frank Willet's work, but to the Awori she was the companion of Onitako, who built Ado as one of the adaludos.

At least its an indigenous attempts at Yoruba history by Yoruba themselves without help from external influence.

Here's the theory:

In Yoruba creation story, there was Oduduwa.

This Oduduwa name is then applied to culture heroes who contributed significantly to phenomena that shaped the life of people on a very large scale.

The progenitor of modern monarchy in Ife had his own actual name but was given the name Oduduwa for his contribution meanwhile the man called Obatala in Ife had his actual name but like the mythical Obatala he lost to Oduduwa and assumed that name with people.

Hope this makes sense?

IranjeIdita:


OK sir.

This stool is possibly widespread across civilizations in the world, it is nothing. Except they are used for the same ceremony by similar people.

Respectfully, outside Ife, how much do you know or are familiar with customs and cultures around the world?

MetaPhysical:


Respectfully, outside Ife, how much do you know or are familiar with customs and cultures around the world?

It is relative.

I am a PhD student focusing on culture history; Ife history to be specific but I dabble into other cultures not to draw comparisons or similarities but to study them as independent phenomenon.

IranjeIdita:


Here's the theory:

In Yoruba creation story, there was Oduduwa.

This Oduduwa name is then applied to culture heroes who contributed significantly to phenomena that shaped the life of people on a very large scale.

The progenitor of modern monarchy in Ife had his own actual name but was given the name Oduduwa for his contribution meanwhile the man called Obatala in Ife had his actual name but like the mythical Obatala he lost to Oduduwa and assumed that name with people.

Hope this makes sense?

What I believe would make a lot of sense is the Yoruba creation story, not what I'm fed as hints from it.

Permit me to say I can read and summerise and draw conclutions just like you sir.

absoluteSuccess:


What I believe would make a lot of sense is the Yoruba creation story, not what I'm fed as hints from it.

Permit me to say I can read and summerise and draw conclutions just like you sir.

My previous post was to separate the different Oduduwas in Ife, Awori, Ado Odo, Ketu etc fro the Oduduwa creation story.

We recognize the creation story and not muddle it with the story of the attendant Oduduwas.

IranjeIdita:



My previous post was to separate the different Oduduwas in Ife, Awori, Ado Odo, Ketu etc fro the Oduduwa creation story.

We recognize the creation story and not muddle it with the story of the attendant Oduduwas.

Alright brother.

I'm not intending to be a jerk, but do you see different Oduduwa at these places and whatever link them as one or separate them as entity?

And what do you mean by 'we recognise the creation story'? There are many recognised creation stories, I need to know the one in reference here.

absoluteSuccess:


What is believe-theory?

You have by this token prove that appropriating what belongs to others and in turn teaching them as your devised precept is a fort to you. Believe theory is an anomaly and a meaningless jargon.

And you want to throw me into this chaos. You can google 'believe-theory' and 'believe system'. Probably what you believe are your own way of improvising and promotion of your believe-system.

Did any of your believe went through the process you are prescribing for me?

That is what studies is about, you study what those before you have done, it doesn't take credit from them. History especially doesn't belong to anybody, revealing details of an historical event is not an invention, history invented is fake This is what you don't get and you call yourself an intellect, you invent history I do not. I simply learn from Historians and retell when such conversion cmoes up. Mr. A can do field research and reveal a detail and Mr. B read his book can retell to people who didn't read Mr. A's book, it is not appropriation. There is no copyright in History the same Mr. A can write an entire book on English history from his knowledge of other books he has read on english history. I am not an archaeologist, Babalawo/Olorisa, I am not even available to do field research.

I laugh at the bold . Hypothesis that fall under the Belief theory has shaped and helped improve the world. An example is Copernicus' Heliocentrism known for making the Model of having the sun at the center rather than the earth, when christians due to belief-system thought otherwise. Copernicus made this theory based on his observations of the Planets Mercury, Venus and Mars. it wasn't until so many years after his death that it was finally proven. If Europe still relied on Christianity and Belief-system we will still think the earth is at the center of the universe (funny as we wouldn't even know the difference between universe and Solar system)

You put yourself in the chaos by calling yourself a historian, you are in fact contributing to this chaos. yoruba history has been told by whomever, however for so long that any well meaning yoruba person should try to set things straight and not be a self-acclaimed historian without portfolio , otherwise as a people we become a joke, an example is the popular oduduwa came from the sky on a chain to create the earth and founded ife, how people mock yoruba due to this by saying oduduwa was chased from heaven and fell from the sky bla bla. When earlier historians failed to put the records straight, how can a Historian propagate such a thing as history?. or dududwa being the son of lamurudu the king of mecca who was chased out for idolatry at and a historian propagated this. Yoruba should have had enough of all this jokes coming as history.

there is a thick line difference between Belief theory and belief system - one is in the field of Academia; the probability of rational thought in spite of what is commonly believed, which is still ready(in fact must be) to undergo scrutiny. the other is a set of beliefs that form a culture, religion, political ideology. So if you as a so called yoruba doesn't follow the yoruba belief system but Jewish, you are in a wrong place to even discuss yoruba history, which cannot be without bias for the jews

absoluteSuccess:


Alright brother.

I'm not intending to be a jerk, but do you see different Oduduwa at these places and whatever link them as one or separate them as entity?

And what do you mean by 'we recognise the creation story'? There are many recognised creation stories, I need to know the one in reference here.

How many people are called Oduduwa in total, do you know?

I see them as different people and Oduduwa-ship as a status to be attained.

The creation story in Ifa - cock, sand, water, obatala, palm wine and stuff.

OlaoChi:
That is what studies is about, you study what those before you have done, it doesn't take credit from them. History especially doesn't belong to anybody, revealing details of an historical event is not an invention, history invented is fake This is what you don't get and you call yourself an intellect, you invent history I do not. I simply learn from Historians and retell when such conversion cmoes up. Mr. A can do field research and reveal a detail and Mr. B read his book can retell to people who didn't read Mr. A's book, it is not appropriation. There is no copyright in History the same Mr. A can write an entire book on English history from his knowledge of other books he has read on english history. I am not an archaeologist, Babalawo/Olorisa, I am not even available to do field research.

I laugh at the bold . Hypothesis that fall under the Belief theory has shaped and helped improve the world. An example is Copernicus' Heliocentrism known for making the Model of having the sun at the center rather than the earth, when christians due to belief-system thought otherwise. Copernicus made this theory based on his observations of the Planets Mercury, Venus and Mars. it wasn't until so many years after his death that it was finally proven. If Europe still relied on Christianity and Belief-system we will still think the earth is at the center of the universe (funny as we wouldn't even know the difference between universe and Solar system)

You put yourself in the chaos by calling yourself a historian, you are in fact contributing to this chaos. yoruba history has been told by whomever, however for so long that any well meaning yoruba person should try to set things straight and not be a self-acclaimed historian without portfolio , otherwise as a people we become a joke, an example is the popular oduduwa came from the sky on a chain to create the earth and founded ife, how people mock yoruba due to this by saying oduduwa was chased from heaven and fell from the sky bla bla. When earlier historians failed to put the records straight, how can a Historian propagate such a thing as history?. or dududwa being the son of lamurudu the king of mecca who was chased out for idolatry at and a historian propagated this. Yoruba should have had enough of all this jokes coming as history.

there is a thick line difference between Belief theory and belief system - one is in the field of Academia; the probability of rational thought in spite of what is commonly believed, which is still ready(in fact must be) to undergo scrutiny. the other is a set of beliefs that form a culture, religion, political ideology. So if you as a so called yoruba doesn't follow the yoruba belief system but Jewish, you are in a wrong place to even discuss yoruba history, which cannot be without bias for the jews

I want to believe you do other things with your life?

Talk to the topic, don't sermonise. You claim you know some things about Oduduwa? Share it. Or I take you for a fool.

IranjeIdita:


It is relative.

I am a PhD student focusing on culture history; Ife history to be specific but I dabble into other cultures not to draw comparisons or similarities but to study them as independent phenomenon.

I am not questioning your expertise, its why I opened with "respectfully". Lol.

Im speaking generally now.

Where we find an object in use at location A is also used in location B and C, bearing similarity in construction and with same application, should we dismiss it as a chance distribution, or does it need further look into perharps to establish commonality and origin?

In particular we find religious objects and articles of faith in Yorubaland duplicated in a specific spot on the globe,not once or twice but in consistent multiple occurrences. I would say mundane objects are perharps chance distribution but I would be more cautious attributing "chance" to rites of worship.

Im moving about and so my participation is disjointed. When I settlr in at home later and can collect thoughts I wil share more.

MetaPhysical:


I am not questioning your expertise, its why I opened with "respectfully". Lol.

Im speaking generally now.

Where we find an object in use at location A is also used in location B and C, bearing similarity in construction and with same application, should we dismiss it as a chance distribution, or does it need further look into perharps to establish commonality and origin?

In particular we find religious objects and articles of faith in Yorubaland duplicated in a specific spot on the globe,not once or twice but in consistent multiple occurrences. I would say mundane objects are perharps chance distribution but I would be more cautious attributing "chance" to rites of worship.

Im moving about and so my participation is disjointed. When I settlr in at home later and can collect thoughts I wil share more.

It depends on what the objective of your research is.

Across the globe we find similar phenomena in cultures and yes they can be further researched and treated as an open ended comparative study in most cases but not commonality of origin. Why? Early history of independently different cultures have shown similarities, surface level or deep, without any necessary similar origin.

Besides, in researching (the science) or writing history (the art), there are set rules to be followed. Else, historians would have written histories of many nations following the patterns displayed here. Look for two cultures with some similarities then slap them together as one.

I have a question: since it is generally agreed that the earlist men lived in Africa first. Why is the theory pushed by you, absolutesuccess, 2prexios and Olu317 not done in reverse?

That is Ife existed first and the Jews, Canaanites, Egyptians tookwhatever similarities we find in their culture away from Yoruba land to the places they settled rather than we looking up to them as the source of our migration and culture?

OlaoChi:
That is what studies is about, you study what those before you have done, it doesn't take credit from them. History especially doesn't belong to anybody, revealing details of an historical event is not an invention, history invented is fake This is what you don't get and you call yourself an intellect, you invent history I do not. I simply learn from Historians and retell when such conversion cmoes up. Mr. A can do field research and reveal a detail and Mr. B read his book can retell to people who didn't read Mr. A's book, it is not appropriation. There is no copyright in History the same Mr. A can write an entire book on English history from his knowledge of other books he has read on english history. I am not an archaeologist, Babalawo/Olorisa, I am not even available to do field research.

I laugh at the bold . Hypothesis that fall under the Belief theory has shaped and helped improve the world. An example is Copernicus' Heliocentrism known for making the Model of having the sun at the center rather than the earth, when christians due to belief-system thought otherwise. Copernicus made this theory based on his observations of the Planets Mercury, Venus and Mars. it wasn't until so many years after his death that it was finally proven. If Europe still relied on Christianity and Belief-system we will still think the earth is at the center of the universe (funny as we wouldn't even know the difference between universe and Solar system)

You put yourself in the chaos by calling yourself a historian, you are in fact contributing to this chaos. yoruba history has been told by whomever, however for so long that any well meaning yoruba person should try to set things straight and not be a self-acclaimed historian without portfolio , otherwise as a people we become a joke, an example is the popular oduduwa came from the sky on a chain to create the earth and founded ife, how people mock yoruba due to this by saying oduduwa was chased from heaven and fell from the sky bla bla. When earlier historians failed to put the records straight, how can a Historian propagate such a thing as history?. or dududwa being the son of lamurudu the king of mecca who was chased out for idolatry at and a historian propagated this. Yoruba should have had enough of all this jokes coming as history.

there is a thick line difference between Belief theory and belief system - one is in the field of Academia; the probability of rational thought in spite of what is commonly believed, which is still ready(in fact must be) to undergo scrutiny. the other is a set of beliefs that form a culture, religion, political ideology. So if you as a so called yoruba doesn't follow the yoruba belief system but Jewish, you are in a wrong place to even discuss yoruba history, which cannot be without bias for the jews

You can stay in England and study the history of place A and publish on it using library resources alone and never putting foot in A. My contention is you cannot do that with Yoruba because our history, spiritualism, arts, beliefs are all interwoven and hard to separate.

If you follow the discussions of this thread from opening it becomes clear, that even people on ground in Yoruba are committing same error and calling rites of worship a history.

Where in Africa, beside the Yorubas, do you find people prostrating? I am yet to identify a culture not Yoruba that prostrates. Prostration in Yoruba are two types, a show of reverence for age and wisdom and the head is held up from the ground, and then a prostration in which we kiss the ground with the forehead in homage to the Orishas and conciliation of the material man to the spirit realm.

So if for example we find that the Akans also prostrate, then in what respect and what is the significance value of the act, in other words...if the act is not performed what is the consequence?


To Iranje,
In reference to your statement about studying history and cultures indeoendently,not for comparison, if you come across an aspect of a people that repeats elsewhere does it arouse your curiosity as to whether or not a vommon thread exist between the two separate and distinct cultures?

IranjeIdita:


It depends on what the objective of your research is.

Across the globe we find similar phenomena in cultures and yes they can be further researched and treated as an open ended comparative study in most cases but not commonality of origin. Why? Early history of independently different cultures have shown similarities, surface level or deep, without any necessary similar origin.

Besides, in researching (the science) or writing history (the art), there are set rules to be followed. Else, historians would have written histories of many nations following the patterns displayed here. Look for two cultures with some similarities then slap them together as one.

I have a question: since it is generally agreed that the earlist men lived in Africa first. Why is the theory pushed by you, absolutesuccess, 2prexios and Olu317 not done in reverse?

That is Ife existed first and the Jews, Canaanites, Egyptians tookwhatever similarities we find in their culture away from Yoruba land to the places they settled rather than we looking up to them as the source of our migration and culture?

I have no conclusions, only questions exist in my mind. If I have any bias it is in favor of oral records having more authenticity than Eurocentric publications about Yoruba.

I just recently asked a page or two ago that could it be possible Oduduwa coming to Ife was a return to roots. So I am not concluded in favor of one above the other as origin but I am thoroughly convinced that a connection far more than just a chance exist between Yoruba and spiritual Canaan.

Aare and Aaron, Araba and Rabbi, Nineveh/Levite and Ile Ife, similarity of form and function of the Mesopotamian Crowns and Yoruba Crowns..and many others that border or are actual participation in the idea of altar, rituals and devotion.

We hear Oduduwa is a foreigner. What we are doing is chasing footprints to establish where he is from. I am not a fan of the Israelite origin. My push is for Ancient Hebrew origin, which is far broader and more expansive than Israel.

IranjeIdita:


I am not interested in Egypt or Canaanite.

My lineage had nothing to do with antelope, elephant and flower sacrifice.

I know for sure Idio people are not linked to Ram & hippopotamus sacrifices too.

I AM A PROUD SON OF YORUBA RACE. AND YOU MISSED IT. WHERE DID I MENTION USES OF FLOWERS AS SACRIFICES? .I DIDN'T INFORM AT ANYWHERE THAT THEY DID USE FLOWERS AS SACRIFICES BUT AROUND THE BURIAL GROUND OF THE ANCIENT PRIESTLY FAMILIES OF BOTH OBATALA AND ODUA..... OBATALA 'S LINEAGE HAD ANTELOPE HEADS AND ELEPHANTS HEADS IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM AS WELL AS FLOWERS (PLANTS) AND ODUA'S ANCIENTS LINEAGE BURIAL SPOT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH RAM AND HIPPOPOTAMUS(The spot are marked with stones while concentric circle forms diadems are displayed on terracotta sculptures of RAM and HIPPOPOTAMUS) . YOU KNOW NOTHING OF IT BECAUSE YOU NEVER FOR ONCE HAD KNOWLEDGE OF IT. DO YOU KNOW THE PRIESTS AND KINGS OF ANCIENT YORUBA WORE CAP LIKENED TO YARMULKE TO COVER THEIR HEADS? DO YOU KNOW THE WARRIORS TIE LEATHER AMULETS (CONJURED WORDS ) WHEN GOING FOR WAR? HOW ON EARTH CAN IT LOOKED EXACTLY LIKE CANAANITES?
years ago, when they were all stolen or broken. In Ife there is still a ram's head in granite, almost life-size, and ceremonial stools carved in single pieces from solid pieces of quartz. But it is the
terracotta sculpture (and bronzes) which show the art of ancient Ife at its best.


HAVE YOU KNOWLEDGE OF IFE SCULPTURES? HAVE YOU STUDIED THEM AT ALL? HAVE YOU COMPARE THEM LOCALLY? HAVE YOU COMPARE THEM GLOBALLY? HAVE YOU KNOWLEDGE WHERE THE STOLEN ARTIFACTS ARE ?THEY ARE IN THE COUNTRIES WHERE ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAVE BEEN DOING TO MANY RESEARCH ON THEM..... DO YOU KNOW THE DESCRIPTION OF HOW THE FIRST WORD(EL-A) WAS SPOKEN IS MORE ELABORATE THAN GENESIS 1 vs 3 ? EXPAND YOUR MINDSET AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND MORE

absoluteSuccess:


I want to believe you do other things with your life?

Talk to the topic, don't sermonise. You claim you know some things about Oduduwa? Share it. Or I take you for a fool.

of course, and what I do with my life is none of your business. You are obviously pained.

Depends on which Oduduwa you are referring to, you have called Ife's oduduwa a gradiose theory, and proclaimed the mythical (in the creation story) Oduduwa to be the historical one. In yoruba culture there is duality in classification; Ogun is both an ancestor and a divine spirit some with different appellation attached, there is Ogun Lakaye osinmole, Ogun onire, there is Orunmila barami Agboniregun, Orunmila okiribiti, so is Oduduwa and others that can be called Orisa. the Obadio title of Ife is not just close(probably closest after the Ooni) to oduduwa, the holder is also the head priest of the oduduwa cult. The account that states Obatala got drunk and oduduwa decided to carry out his task with the snail shell, dust and rooster is purely mythical. An this Oduduwa is often described as a female figure different from oduduwa the king from Oke-Ora

IranjeIdita:


How many people are called Oduduwa in total, do you know?

I see them as different people and Oduduwa-ship as a status to be attained.

The creation story in Ifa - cock, sand, water, obatala, palm wine and stuff.

Not so true. IFA is a religion in which it has pattern in keeping an account of the past and a spiritual guide for humanity/believer. The cock, sand, water and ELA(first spoken word) by Eledumare. All these confirm certain fact about Yoruba Religion having knowledge of Biblical God or vice versa. Do you know that ancients ISRAELI DREADLOCKS WERE FORBIDDEN TO DRINK RUM/PALM WINE? . Have you heard of account of Hausa migration? Do you know that Hausas history had knowledge of Middle East?
it is a pointer to show that there were true migration.

Human history cannot be divorced from their art. Do you agree?
Europeans/Americans spend huge amount of money to find out facts about the beginning of humanity as whole in Africa . But ILE IFE has claimed that it was the first place on earth was not accepted as TRUTH from the archaeological findings. ILE IFE has only proven to develop art as seen as transfer ideology from other part of Africa and Greek Art. How did it have such Similarity while others WEST AFRICA don't , even BINI ART couldn't be compared to ancient ILE IFE ART.

The age of the Ife heads has not yet been conclusively ascertained, but since it is practically certain that the bronze art of Benin was derived from Ife, there is some data to work on. They first came from Ife to Benin about 1280, after which it must have taken some time for this crude art to develop into the masterpieces which we know, so that the bronze art of Ife cannot have reached its zenith till the thirteenth century at the earliest.

Although both in terra-cotta and bronze the ethnic characteristics of the models are well portrayed, the works resemble the sculpture of ancient Greece or Egyptian art , rather than the culture of black Africa. The anthropologist Frobenius considered a connection with the Mediterranean sphere, and Sir Flinders Petrie in his book on ancient Egypt remarks that if any of the Ife heads had been excavated in the foreign quarter of Memphis, they would have been accepted as larger examples of the local-type. He adds: "The Memphite work cannot have come from the Niger, it is too close in touch with Persia and India; but the idea, and even the workmen, may have come from Egypt to West Africa."