And this is the point I exit the thread.

Here is my position again:

Igbo si na ofeke ji aka ekpe atu ulo nna ya aka!

It is not easy being an Igboman, especially in Nigeria.

Debate the issues of whether Nri is the sole religious authority in Igboland.
Abandon dubious clannish revisionism; we will all lose from it.

Signing off.
Yours truly,

Onlytruth.  

Abeg, lets celebrate the fact that someone, somewhere, had the foresight to acknowledge Igbo civilization. Besides, my grandfather in Isialangwa remains the most important cultural figure in all of Igbo land!!!!!!!!!  Ok, he is not.
  It is amazing to see an Ngwa and Aro uniting to dispute the extent of Nri authority or influence in Igbo land. Ngwa and the Aro Confederacy were mortal enemies, with the Ngwa throwing her full weight behind the British when it invaded Arochukwu. But that is history for you, it is murky, and your enemy today might be your ally in the future. The Ngwa were very fierce and were NOT under the authority of the Aro, but somehow they were very welcoming to the Aros, before the conflicts that were brought about by Aro involvement in the slave trade. Prior to that, Aros were pretty much the only outsiders the Ngwas allowed to live in their midst, i.e within the villages. The Aros that settled at AroNgwa were allowed to do so with the promise that they would never go back to Arochukwu. Aros were always merchants, even before the slave trade, and traveled all over what is the current south-east and south-south zones.
    On the other hand, we can't be dismissive of the Nri influence in Igbo land. As earlier stated, history can get murky, and given how long Igbos have been in their present location, this history that was passed on by oral tradition, is especially difficult to navigate. However, if most that have painstakingly studied this history at an academic level allude to some widespread Nri influence, then there must be some truth to it. All Igbos share a significant amount of cultural similarities, so we are either the same people or some group(s) imparted these customs on others. All Igbo groups see much of  Omelala as the authentic traditions of their fathers, and can also identify the practices that they have borrowed from external influences. So, I am inclined to believe that we are the same people. Does this make Nri the progenitors of much of what is regarded as Omelala, I do not believe so. But at some point, their philosophy was highly regarded in much of Igbo land and Nri emerged as a spiritual and cultural epicenter, with its priests being sought after in such matters. Likewise, Arochukwu with Ibini Ukpabi had its era of great influence in much of Igbo land and beyond, and the Igwe ka Ala deity of Umunneoha had its reign too, as a few others did too.
   Now, I believe Chinenye stated that there is no evidence of Nri influence in Ngwa land, which might be true of the current location of the Ngwa. But Ngwas were part of a group that left from the Owerri areas and made an eastward push. Could they have been exposed to Nri influence at their former location? Maybe or maybe not as I doubt anyone is certain of the timeline in which they left Owerri, or if Nri influence even got to this area. On the other hand, it is understood that many of the people that had settled at Owerri were from Arochukwu, so the Ngwa that later had conflicts with the Aro empire might have left Arochukwu long ago before settling around Owerri and then moving to their present location. Like I said, it gets murky.

Kc3000:

Now, I believe Chinenye stated that there is no evidence of Nri influence in Ngwa land, which might be true of the current location of the Ngwa. But Ngwas were part of a group that left from the Owerri areas and made an eastward push. Could they have been exposed to Nri influence at their former location? Maybe or maybe not as I doubt anyone is certain of the timeline in which they left Owerri, or if Nri influence even got to this area. On the other hand, it is understood that many of the people that had settled at Owerri were from Arochukwu, so the Ngwa that later had conflicts with the Aro empire might have left Arochukwu long ago before settling around Owerri and then moving to their present location. Like I said, it gets murky.

First bolded. I don't know. I'm really not so sure about that claim.

Second bolded. Ngwa is older than Arochukwu, but I'm not surprised that people would think such. From what I hear, there are other communities in the area which seem to have an "Aro origin" that is either mixed with their original traditions of origin, or has either become so popular that it has somewhat displaced the original tradition. Either way, Ngwa didn't descend from Arochukwu, but you're right though. These things do get murky, that's for sure.

@ChinenyeN, I also doubt that Ngwa descended from Arochukwu , but I have heard that theory a few times, hence I said "might". Maybe the Aro groups got to owerri after the Ngwa had left. But, the migration from the owerri axis, across the Imo river, before settling at Okpulor Ngwa (Okpualangwa), is widely accepted among Ngwa. If there is another version of Ngwa history, I would like to hear it.

I can't remember where I read it but I heard that the Europeans, on discovering that the centre of Igbo culture and taboo was in Nri, threatened the Eze Nri with exile (it's known he doesn't leave the town) else he terminates all/most taboos that they considered hindrance to their vision/colonization.

interesting

my friend is an AROhukwu boy he was telling me that arochukwu people sold a lot of people during slavery

The argument about Nri and Aro is very funny. How could that even be a debate?
How old is Aro?
Aro that recently fought the Ibibios before forming Arochukwu?

Who were those Igbos that fought the Ibibios?

And for the last time, Nri is not a clan!
Calling Nri a clan should be stopped. There has never been a clan in most Anambra and Enugu. Wawa was a recent creation unlike Ngwa, Aro, etc.

Umunri is a clan, an of-shoot of Umueri.

ezeagu:

Umunri is a clan, an of-shoot of Umueri.

You people are just calling it a clan. It never and has never been a clan.

An Aro will tell you he is Aro, an Ngwa will tell you he is Ngwa and so on but nobody in Anambra and most Enugu will say he is Nri. Nri is just a town like every other town and not a clan we belong to.

I'll keep repeating it, nobody in my town will tell you he is Nri, that'll be angry to hear it. We only recognise Nri as the origin of Igbo and that's all!

What town are you from, Agukwu Nri? Aguleri? Enugu Ukwu? etc.

I'm from Anaocha

@Ezeagu,
Bro, I have always thought you were pretty switched on. Forget this "my people" thing. You are Igbo. Ndigbo are your people, end of the story.

Kc3000:

@ChinenyeN [. . ] But, the migration from the owerri axis,  across the Imo river,  before settling at  Okpulor Ngwa (Okpualangwa), is a widely accepted among Ngwa. If there is another version of Ngwa history, I would like to hear it.

This is a quote from a post I made in a different topic in the culture section "Origin of Various Igbo Tribes".

ChinenyeN:

Ngwa

The Ngwa, said to be the largest and most populous sub-ethnicity or 'clan' in southeastern Nigeria, are considered by Igbo historians to be a branch of eastern Isuama. This classification of Ngwa as 'eastern Isuama' is primarily due to the accounts given by G.I. Jones and D. Forde. According to Jones and Forde, "The ancestors of the Ohuhu-Ngwa formed part of a migration from the Agbaja area in Owerri and moved to the river Imo. Those who crossed the Imo became the Ngwa; those who remained on the western bank are the Ohuhu." (The Ibo and Ibibio-speaking peoples of south-eastern Nigeria, pp. 43-44). Now, although Jones and Forde asserted that the Ngwa originally lived in Orlu axis, they remained unable to provide an actual place of origin, but later Igbo historians such as Nwaguru (he himself an Ngwa), began pointing to Umunoha (an Isu village) in what is now Mbaitoli LGA, as the supposed place of origin. This they did in keeping with the eastern Isuama claims of Jones and Forde. However, Ngwa oral tradition does not actually speak on a place of origin outside of the present locality. Instead the tradition, presented in the form of a legend, is used in part to explain the establishment of the Ngwa clan, but more importantly, it is used to further affirm kinship ties between the Ngwa [/i]and the [i]Ohuhu (Ohnuhnu). According to the tradition, a band of people, while on a journey, came upon a small stream. There they decided to rest and eat. They began preparing their food (yam), and whilst some among them decided to roast their yams, as is traditionally done, others adopted the unorthodox method of boiling their yams. While the band of people were busy preparing their food, the small stream they came upon suddenly but steadily began to rise and surge. Those who had boiled their yams quickly finished eating, collected their things, and crossed. The remainder, who roasted their yams, decided to wait it out, choosing to remain with their food and finish their meal before crossing, but by the time they had finished eating, the small stream had so risen to the extent that it was no longer passable. The river was later named[i] Imo[/i] on account of its size and rapid growth. The roasters, now unable to continue the journey, remained on that bank (the west bank of the Imo) and became the Ohuhu (literally, nde Ohnuhnu Ji; those who roast their yam). This name was given to them by their more fortunate relatives, who consequently were called Ngwa (a short form of the adjective ngwa ngwa meaning quickly), due to them having speedily crossed the rising and surging river before it became to late. The Ohuhu then later came to be known as Ezinihitte [/i]of Mbaise, while the Ngwa constituted the Ngwa people of the old Aba division.

Honestly though, aside from its institutionalized value as a legend, I tend to dismiss this oral tradition and the whole Imo Crossing Incident. I do not believe the tradition is meant to be taken literally, as many seen to have erroneously done. I also dismiss the eastern Isuama claims of origin (i.e. the great Isuama migration & the eastern Isuama categorization of Ngwa).

One thing I noticed, I don't know if any other Ngwa has noticed it too, is that when asking the elderly eldery (those who are really okhii) about how we got to Ngwa, the typified, general response is "we came from Mbaise". Not once have I heard one of the elderly people mention anything other than Mbaise. The case is different for some of our fathers and uncles. These our fathers and uncles talk about a migration from Owerri and mention Mbaise as a secondary migration. They are the ones who first introduced Umunneoha as the place of origin, beginning from Nwaguru who first mentioned it in his book [i]Aba and British Rule (at least, that's as far back as I've been able to trace it). To be honest, it is my suspicion that Nwaguru mentioned Umunnoha in response to the then-growing acceptance of the Owerri migration claim, as well as the growing belief of an "Igbo-core", centered around Nri/Awka/Orlu. But Ngwa traditions don't mention Orlu, Awka or Nri.

Hmmmm SMH @ this ,,,northern,,,eastern,,,western,,,southern Igbo sh#t With this kind of division and clanish mentality, Ndigbo does not need an enemy in the nigerian dungeon.

ChinenyeN:

But Ngwa traditions don't mention Orlu, Awka or Nri.

Ngwa tradition must not mention Nri to have a root there. Ngwa migrated from another place other that Nri so Nri will not necessarily be important in their history but like someone asked, where did the core Igbo tradition that linked us all outside language originate from? There must be a source.

We are all Igbos, but I will not support the cultural hegemony of a group who did not have any influence on my own or others Igbo clans.

EzeUche:

We are all Igbos, but I will not support the cultural hegemony of a group who did not have any influence on my own or others Igbo clans.

Aro is so far away that the influence of Nri might be minimal. Aro was a very recent creation by Igbos that came from somewhere.
They came with the central Igbo tradition imbibed in them but acquired other traditions as well from neighbouring Ibibio and Efik.

Eze Nri might not seem powerful enough now to some even to be compared to tiny Onitsha and other recently created Igwes Who is Obi of Onitsha in Igbo tradition?

Obiagu1:

Ngwa tradition must not mention Nri to have a root there. Ngwa migrated from another place other that Nri so Nri will not necessarily be important in their history but like someone asked, where did the core Igbo tradition that linked us all outside language originate from? There must be a source.

Please, explain what you mean by 'root in Nri'. I would rather not assume you mean one thing and start responding, and it turns out that you are talking about something else. Regarding bolded, I've said it before that I think people are really overlooking the Isu people in all of this. It is my suspicion that they may be the missing link.

I think you guys are getting the picture wrong. Theres a difference between culture which we all share as Igbos and tradition which varies from place to place. We should learn to respect and give honour to any Igbo monarch despite his origin. I myself, as an Aro guy have no trouble with acknowledging the royal blood that flows through the veins of Eze Nri and giving respect where respedct is due. What I do disagree with is ackonwledging him as "the father of the Igbos". But nevertheless, I see the Igbo traditional heirarchy as a confederacy. A confederacy made up of many different clans and kingdoms that all enjoy sovereignty but unite when necessary to form a common Igbo identity.

ChinenyeN:

Please, explain what you mean by 'root in Nri'. I would rather not assume you mean one thing and start responding, and it turns out that you are talking about something else. Regarding bolded, I've said it before that I think people are really overlooking the Isu people in all of this. It is my suspicion that they may be the missing link.

This is because people are calling Nri a clan but as far as I'm concerned, Nri is not a clan and Isu is probably the first clan that came from Nri. Isu is not a different people so to say. Isu is not Oru.

As far as I'm concerned, two core people make up the present Igbo: Igbo and Oru and as the saying goes, they are brothers.

odumchi:

I think you guys are getting the picture wrong. Theres a difference between culture which we all share as Igbos and tradition which varies from place to place. We should learn to respect and give honour to any Igbo monarch despite his origin. I myself, as an Aro guy have no trouble with acknowledging the royal blood that flows through the veins of Eze Nri and giving respect where respedct is due. What I do disagree with is ackonwledging him as "the father of the Igbos". But nevertheless, I see the Igbo traditional heirarchy as a confederacy. A confederacy made up of many different clans and kingdoms that all enjoy sovereignty but unite when necessary to form a common Igbo identity.

Nobody said he is the father of the Igbos. Eze Nri is chosen spiritually and not hereditary and he is not a king but a priestly king.

Obiagu1:

This is because people are calling Nri a clan but as far as I'm concerned, Isu is probably first clan that came from Nri. Isu is not a different people so to say. Isu is not Oru.

As far as I'm concerned, two core people make up the present Igbo: Igbo and Oru and as the saying goes, they are brothers.

Isu coming from Nri. Are you even sure about that? "Oru na Igbo bu nwanne" is in regards to Oru and Isu, if I'm not mistaken. Abagworo is in better place to say though.

^^^

by the way, who are the Oru?

Oru are the Riverine Igbo. They neighbor Isu and Oratta.

I was actually looking for the name of towns where Oru are.

I'm I'm not mistaking, Oguta, Oru, Orsu and communities in that axis. Abagworo is Oru, he is in a better position to answer if/when he reads this.

Ok though I think Oguta is Anioma and Oru town is not pronounced same as Oru (people)

What's the difference between Oru town and Oru (people)?

Do you think I mind if Aro is recognised at the sole Igbo authority?

I'm not from Nri, and my people may even have their own views about Nri or anyone else.
But when you start making statements about "Northern Igbo", "Eastern Igbo" and "Southern Igbo", an external enemy would be chuckling and waiting for a day he would use people like you to destroy us.  

[quote][/quote]

Ézè Ǹrì usually doesn't come out for anything, he's the most important man in Igboland, most people don't know this. Can this museum be a mini Mecca for Igbo in the United States?

Do you think I mind if Aro is recognised at the sole Igbo authority?

I'm not from Nri, and my people may even have their own views about Nri or anyone else.
But when you start making statements about "Northern Igbo", "Eastern Igbo" and "Southern Igbo", an external enemy would be chuckling and waiting for a day he would use people like you to destroy us.  
[quote][/quote]

Ézè Ǹrì usually doesn't come out for anything, he's the most important man in Igboland, most people don't know this. Can this museum be a mini Mecca for Igbo in the United States?

Which one should we recognize now and we should learn to tolerate each other.

See people hanging themselves over the use of 'southerners', 'northerners' etc. Na your own insecurities. This is a cultural topic. The use of 'northern', 'southern', etc. is culturally relevant.

ChinenyeN may I please request that you desist in the manner in which you easily demarcate, categorize and also terrorize Igbo Areas. This is the second time I am seeing your posts doing this. I do not know what you mean by Northern, Eastern, Southern or Western Igboland, Sounds like the classical Nigerian insecurity and self-centeredness that is currently killing us.
I am one of those who still believe that I will again see those days when it was not necessary to note were my neigbour is from. Lets not create precedences that can outlive us and spill out of control like Wole Soyinka.

On the Main issue, I would like to say that we are taking obivious realities to extremes on both sides.

1. NRI is a religious and idealistic center with no Military or Political Power.: People from immediate Nri community might,  out of zeal of pride, want to make it become more than it is actually.  If Nri is more than that, the evidences of it military instead of social innovations will be very visible.

2.  I believe, though with out prove, that the recognition of NRI and her influence, stems from the Igbo culture of still referencing One's fathers house even when you have established you home stem. In my place one never forget's 'OBU NNA' even when you have you own Obu. (OBU=OBI) . Hence, NRI is powered not by the force of authority, but by the recognition of chronological precedence and time enriched knowledge base. Else A large chunk of Igboland would have been under a monarchy, I  have never heard of a monarchy without a military.

Up till today, in many parts of Igbo land, you cannot bring down a man who hanged himself without the presence of an NRI related priest.

3. For those like ChinenyeN from Ngwa and Arochukwu area, the mere Political and Military prowess of these communities means that any Authority without millitary deterrant in your area will be eroded by the needs and emergencies of war. but your common practice of certain Igbo wide cultures points you directly or indirectly towards the NRI influence. Also note that Arochukwu might not always have existed as a military strong community. Being a major trade group, it could also have been populated by immigrants.

We all seem to think people in our communities are all probably from the same father. Even the idea that the stock of all Igbo land came from the same father is very popular but highly unlikely. A good example of how this view leads us to make some unnatural assumptions can be seen in my own village.

I come from Mbaukwu in Awka South LGA. A place not very far of from NRI. If you check the list of villages recognized by NRI in the post by Emyworld on page 3. you will see that it recognizes a village in Mbaukwu called Akabor. Let me inform you that's not the only sub group within Mbaukwu village. There is Ndiagu, Nannkpu, Ngodo, one other I cannot remember.

From close interactions with my Grandfather, I know that Akabor is actually the only village that were original settlers. My Village Nannkpu migrated from Ufuma also in Anambra State, My mother's village Ndiagu, migrated from various places, with the her immediate clan coming from Agulu as Warriors and Mercenaries. But as you can see, today's NRI communities have not counted us as their brothers in an obvious error due to their inability to trace our migration. If we were still in Agulu or Ufuma they would. Also, the migrated people joined the original settlers in practicing cultures associated with the NRI priests.

For those of you trying to trace authority by locaton of Deities, it is funny that in my village that I spoke of, the Agulu Dieties that were brought by one of my maternal forefathers grew more prominent than the fore-exisiting dieties because it was percieved to be very vengeful and merciless in Judgement. If I follow some of the line of thought here, this Agulu deity that was relatively unknown in Agulu, a privy of one of my very stubborn, troublesome and socially unaligned  forefather in Agulu, will soon be attributed to Mbaukwu in tracing origins.

Gentlemen, NRI Affected a whole lot of Igboland, North, South, East and West. May be not all, but certainly Arochukwu and Ngwa if they have ofor, Nze and Ozo, or four market days. This influence does not in anyway impart on Nri, any political leadership, rather intellectual and idealogical leadership, which is actually a challenge on the intellects and ingenuity of todays Nri in spearheading solutions to today's Igbo social problems. At the very least, what is expected of Nri is to play the role of a host and initiator of delibrations and conferences, and not a divisor as I currently percieve.