Kayouzka:


You are the creator it just that you forget that you are, remember all "I" is the centre of the universe, without the observer there is no observation the two are intertwined, note matter is not fundamental only consciousness is fundamental and there is no two just one acting as all at the same moment.

Yes, We're are creators. We're capable of creating anything.

But, it's the prove that we're looking for. You know Seeing is believing right ? Have you seen any physical prove that God exists rather than the teachings in the Bible ?

Because so many people are still dwelling in that. Ponder on this.

Wilgrea7:
Happy Sunday people,

One common topic that gets brought up in discussions between theists and non-believers, is the existence of a God, who created everything we know to exist. After all, why is there something rather than nothing?

Theists usually consider the design of the universe, the intricacy and complexity of everything, as evidence for an omnipotent, intelligent, and complex designer.

Common attributes assigned to this creator often include;

1. Eternal
2. Complex/Intelligent
3. Singular
4. Conscious
5. Personal
6. Omnipotent/ infinitely powerful

My question is, why exactly does it have to be this way? Based on our current observation of the universe, we can accept that it was intelligently, or consciously designed. But the attributes of the alleged creator, seem like a bit of a jump to me.

I'll give some examples below.

1.Eternity is timeless meaning "no time" that's to say all is happening at once but your mind can only view one at a moment therefore creating the illusion of time.

2. Complexity is the manifestation of the same thing in different ways, there is only one energy and one creative force which is capable of manifesting into an infinity level of possibilities.

3. There is only one God (you may call it God) or creative force, he is the player of all our minds.

4. Ever knowing, awareness

5. Note, infinity consciousness can never be good or bad it at rest, it is our minds that creates that distinction, does a lion feel bad when it devour a zebra or does a zebra feel vengeful when it comrade is devoured, we only think of good and evil because of our limited minds.

6. God is omnipotent and infinitely powerful, what would you do if you have all the powers in the world, you have great music, adventures, planets, foods, dance, you know all before they happen, you control all and sundry, no limit to your abilities and achievements then dear you don't have a life, to have a life in a body mind you must know suffering you must know pain and limitations, Don't you know that if you can do all things you will get bored and then you will decide to lock yourself in a box throw the keys away and forget that you put yourself in a box or if there was even a key then you will find yourself where you at now.

Wilgrea7:

Yes. But according to your argument, if someone pays me to do the creation, then they're technically the owners.. and not me.

Ok.. i have another question. What if multiple people contribute to pay me to create something.. who then is the owner?

And I have said contract has settled these things.

Wilgrea7:

Exactly... Now you're getting my point. The case of apple is a case where multiple people can create something, instead of one.

And like the iPhone, we iPhones would see and hear that we have 2 Creators.

But the real-eyeity and evidence has shown already that we have only One Creator, so no thing for you.

It is you iPhones who are fabricating and trying to put in 2 Creators

MITCHELL96:



Yes, We're are creators. We're capable of creating anything.

But, it's the prove that we're looking for. You know Seeing is believing right ? Have you seen any physical prove that God exists rather than the teachings in the Bible ?

Because so many people are still dwelling in that. Ponder on this.

Most people think there is a God seating on a thrown, we like to idolise, it is so hard for man in his mind not to idolise because his mind is full of the thought of time and space, for the mind is the tunnel through which God sees the world bit by bit through limitations. You cannot know God with your mind, you cannot find God while looking at material things that is why science cannot proof it, the highest way to know God (find yourself) is to go into the silence in meditation. That's silence the mind that which brings limitations then you feel one with all, you can't touch it or wrap your mind over it, the moment you try you lose it immediately.

MITCHELL96:

Yes, We're are creators. We're capable of creating anything.

You cannot create anything eg no man has created something out of emptiness. It is not possible.

Man is always using what has been created already to create, which is why man cannot create another earth since they have ruined this one.

MITCHELL96:

But, it's the prove that we're looking for. You know Seeing is believing right ? Have you seen any physical prove that God exists rather than the teachings in the Bible ?

Because so many people are still dwelling in that. Ponder on this.

Isreal and Muslim hatred for Christians and Egypt and Rome and Germany's mass murder of the Israelites are one of the many "seeable" Proofs of God.

Dtruthspeaker:


You cannot create anything eg no man has created something out of emptiness. It is not possible.

Man is always using what has been created already to create, which is why man cannot create another earth since they have ruined this one.



Isreal and Muslim hatred for Christians and Egypt and Rome and Germany's mass murder of the Israelites are one of the many "seeable" Proofs of God.

Yeah. What you said Is right. I believe you.

Kayouzka:


Most people think there is a God seating on a thrown, we like to idolise, it is so hard for man in his mind not to idolise because his mind is full of the thought of time and space, for the mind is the tunnel through which God sees the world bit by bit through limitations. You cannot know God with your mind, you cannot find God while looking at material things that is why science cannot proof it, the highest way to know God (find yourself) is to go into the silence in meditation. That's silence the mind that which brings limitations then you feel one with all, you can't touch it or wrap your mind over it, the moment you try you lose it immediately.

I'll take this home. It's just that some times, I want this kind of proof that I'll say "God, show me you exist by healing me of this particular sickness/disease before midnight" or a particular period of time and I'll get healed

Some pastors normally say this and it works for them. Sometimes, I ask if God honours such pronouncements or there's another god these pastors are worshipping making it look like There's a living GOD.


I have something that's been borthering me for some years now, I have walked with faith, fasted, prayed and even lived a holy life, trust me, not capping. But nothing, nothing at all. To the point I have to make that statement for me to believe that yes, God exists.

Sometimes, I don't just know but for that girl that died and said she went to hell, she's still on my mind, I'd definitely meet her and have a long talk with her.

I want to know her experience and what death looks like.

MITCHELL96:



I'll take this home. It's just that some times, I want this kind of proof that I'll say "God, show me you exist by healing me of this particular sickness/disease before midnight" or a particular period of time and I'll get healed

Some pastors normally say this and it works for them. Sometimes, I ask if God honours such pronouncements or there's another god these pastors are worshipping making it look like There's a living GOD.


I have something that's been borthering me for some years now, I have walked with faith, fasted, prayed and even lived a holy life, trust me, not capping. But nothing, nothing at all. To the point I have to make that statement for me to believe that yes, God exists.

Sometimes, I don't just know but for that girl that died and said she went to hell, she's still on my mind, I'd definitely meet her and have a long talk with her.

I want to know her experience and what death looks like.

Death looks the same way has life looks like because no one can ever phantom what it like not be, nature oppose a vacuum, you can never experience nothingness. Hell, heaven and so on are just concepts and concepts are illusions where ever you at is where it at

Kayouzka:


Death looks the same way has life looks like because no one can ever phantom what it like not be, nature oppose a vacuum, you can never experience nothingness. Hell, heaven and so on are just concepts and concepts are illusions where ever you at is where it at

If you have watched the deaths of people you would see that heaven and hell is not a concept but a place.

MITCHELL96:

I have something that's been borthering me for some years now, I have walked with faith, fasted, prayed and even lived a holy life, trust me, not capping. But nothing, nothing at all. To the point I have to make that statement for me to believe that yes, God exists.

And this is one of the things men refuse to learn about God, which is, He is not your genie and personal wishmaster.

He is God, our Creator and creations do not dictate nor command their creators like your phone nor pencil does not command you.

And like your phone and car, it is at your pleasure you shall fix (heal) whatever ails them whether they ask or not.

Dtruthspeaker:


And this is one of the things men refuse to learn about God, which is, He is not your genie and personal wishmaster.

He is God, our Creator and creations do not dictate nor command their creators like your phone nor pencil does not command you.

And like your phone and car, it is at your pleasure you shall fix (heal) whatever ails them whether they ask or not.

How can i make God grant my personal wishes/Request ?

P.S. My request are not self-centred.

Is there any task one has to do ?

Dtruthspeaker:


If you have watched the deaths of people you would see that heaven and hell is not a concept but a place.

Heaven or hell is not a place it a state

Kayouzka:


Heaven or hell is not a place it a state

Obviously this is what you tell yourself to keep yourself from going mad with fear.

MITCHELL96:


How can i make God grant my personal wishes/Request ?

This is one of the wrongest question ever and with this in mind, it is a guarantee that God would not ever hear you.

Dtruthspeaker:


And I have said contract has settled these things.

I understand the analogy of the contract. What I'm asking is, in the situation where multiple people contribute money to employ someone to create something, would you still claim that the thing which was created has a single owner? If not, then you agree that things can exist via multiple creators.

And like the iPhone, we iPhones would see and hear that we have 2 Creators.

But the real-eyeity and evidence has shown already that we have only One Creator, so no thing for you.

It is you iPhones who are fabricating and trying to put in 2 Creators

I don't understand. How exactly does reality show we have only one creator? You've sparked my curiosity.

Dtruthspeaker:


That is the certainly of real-eyeity. We have Seen the action and we have seen that all other actions that people have imagined have never occurred, therefore, the action that has been Seen rules.

Which is why all other conjectures that have not happened remain in the darkness and uselessness of speculations and fabrications.

And Truth is not about speculation and fabrications but about what things are Seen aka real-eyeity.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that people working together without conflict is a speculation or fabrication. Conflicts leads to disruptions in order, which is why we tend to notice them more quickly. A neighborhood could be quiet for days, or even weeks, and we wouldn't think much of it. But when a fight happens, we tend to notice it, and remember it more.

Also, another issue I have with the analogy is that it seems to assume that if a God/Gods exist, they will have the nature of humans. We like to think of human nature as corrupted, sinful, and so on. And we think of a God, as pure, and holy, etc. If such a being/beings existed, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be free from the "sinful" nature of humans that causes them to fall into conflict with each other?

Also, isn't it also possible that if multiple beings exist, and are truly bound to fall into conflict, that the said conflict is an event bound to happen in the future? Meaning that if conflict is inevitable, isn't it something we can predict would happen in the future? Take the quiet street for example. 5 weeks of peace and quiet before a fight breaks out. How can we be sure we're not in the 3rd or 4th week, before the multiple deities, if they exist, fall into conflict with each other?

And all the disagreement is resolved because One vetoed it. So you have only proven and supported my case.

Of course it's also a possibility. My point throughout this thread has been to show the multiple possibilities through which things can unfold. Arguments can be abolished if a superior entity vetoes it as you claim. But, that doesn't still mean that arguments cannot also be resolved through mutual understanding.

Before I continue, I must say, this is a very interesting concept of a creator deity. It's good to have different perspectives like this around here.

Kayouzka:


1.Eternity is timeless meaning "no time" that's to say all is happening at once but your mind can only view one at a moment therefore creating the illusion of time.

The issue I have about the whole "no time" thing, is that it claims that the past, present, and future exist all at once, and we simply just flow through them. This poses a huge problem for freewill, because it supports the notion that everything has already happened, and that you have absolutely no control over the future.

2. Complexity is the manifestation of the same thing in different ways, there is only one energy and one creative force which is capable of manifesting into an infinity level of possibilities.

3. There is only one God (you may call it God) or creative force, he is the player of all our minds.

4. Ever knowing, awareness

5. Note, infinity consciousness can never be good or bad it at rest, it is our minds that creates that distinction, does a lion feel bad when it devour a zebra or does a zebra feel vengeful when it comrade is devoured, we only think of good and evil because of our limited minds.

6. God is omnipotent and infinitely powerful, what would you do if you have all the powers in the world, you have great music, adventures, planets, foods, dance, you know all before they happen, you control all and sundry, no limit to your abilities and achievements then dear you don't have a life, to have a life in a body mind you must know suffering you must know pain and limitations, Don't you know that if you can do all things you will get bored and then you will decide to lock yourself in a box throw the keys away and forget that you put yourself in a box or if there was even a key then you will find yourself where you at now.

Like I said earlier, this is an interesting concept. I think it's called pantheism, or panentheism if i remember correctly. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The issue with the claim like this, is that while it's a nice explanation for how things are, there's not a lot of proof for this claim, in opposition to what the christians or muslims for example believe, when they say their God created the universe, and is separate from it.

For example, it is possible that a god, or multiple gods, decided to use energy, as the underlying principle for everything when creating the universe, rather than the energy itself being the ultimate creator/reality. Of course I'm not saying one or the other is necessarily true. I'm just wondering if there is any sort of evidence we could use to prove one over the other.

Kayouzka:


Try to know consciousness the maker of all that their is is like trying to heat up fire with fire, it like trying to bite your teeth with your teeth, it like trying to see your eyes with your naked eyes it not just possible the highest is to go into the silence in meditation. You see existing is like a dream and you are the one making it up, existence is not fundamental but consciousness. How do you know that their is a world without observation?

This concept is something I'm really interested in, because consciousness, for the most part, is still a mystery to us. But my question is, if it is truly impossible to grasp, or to know, then how do people, like you, who say that consciousness is the maker, arrive at the conclusion? I'm sincerely curious.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong here. But if something cannot be truly known or understood, then how can we know that we know it? I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, so if you would like to explain further, I'll be happy to listen.

Wilgrea7:
..I understand the analogy of the contract. What I'm asking is, in the situation where multiple people contribute money to employ someone to create something, would you still claim that the thing which was created has a single owner? If not, then you agree that things can exist via multiple creators.

The Contract settles these things.

Wilgrea7:
..
I don't understand. How exactly does reality show we have only one creator? You've sparked my curiosity.

That is why I gave you the 2 Rulers and 2 Landlords and 2 Captain analogy.

Unlike the iPhone which is not capable of breaking the laws set and made over it, we are law breaking capable iPhones, hence, our Rulers will need to come and implement Judgement and punishment or honour over us.

Thus, if we have 2 Rulers, there must be war between them for there will be a case where one ruler would say it is okay and the other will say "not okay" as husband (Ruler 1) and wife (Ruler 2) have proven over their children (iPhone). We all know the war that has taken place over the rule of their children, in tandem with my 2 Rulers, 2 Landlords, 2 Captain analogy.

Wilgrea7:
..
I wouldn't go as far as to say that people working together without conflict is a speculation or fabrication. Conflicts leads to disruptions in order, which is why we tend to notice them more quickly.

Hence the unimpeachable proof of 2 Rulers/landlord.

Wilgrea7:
..
Also, another issue I have with the analogy is that it seems to assume that if a God/Gods exist, they will have the nature of humans.

AND THIS IS ANOTHER MAJOR PROOF OF GOD AND THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE, FOR WE SEE THAT HE TRULY CREATED US "TO BE LIKE HIM" as proven by our own look likes called mannequins, mascots, robots meanwhile we also have the iphone, car, pencil etc which do not look like him, EXACTLY AS GOD TOO DID!

And we see that no other creation on earth has this quality.

So now, we can use our human nature to find, see and understand Him.

Wilgrea7:
1) A SINGULAR GOD

Why exactly does the creator need to be a singular entity? All attributes we can observe, like conscious or intelligent design, can exist perfectly fine if there are 2, 3, 10 or even 100 creators. Why does the concept of a creator need to be singular?

People often say if there were multiple creators, they would run into conflict. Why exactly do multiple higher entities have to fall into conflict with each other? The fact that humans and other life forms on earth do it doesn't mean they (the alleged creators) need to do it.

And even if they do, how do we know it's not something that's bound to happen in the future, and we just don't know yet?


2) AN ETERNAL GOD

Why exactly does our creator, if it exists, need to be eternal. From our current observation, the universe began about 14 billion years ago. What law is stopping our creator from having another creator? What stops our creators from being 30 billion years old, or even 300 billion years old?

A common objection is the infinite regress fallacy. Which is to say that if you say a creator needs a creator, then you go back infinitely needing creators, which is illogical.

Except of course we don't necessarily need 1 generation of a creator. We could have 3, 4, or even 100 generations of creators. Of course there's no way to prove it. So why do we come to the conclusion that any creator we have, happens to be eternal and timeless?


3) A PERSONAL GOD

People often assume that if we were created, whoever created us MUST care for us, or be kind, and loving and whatnot. But what exactly stops the alleged creator/creators of the universe from being evil, sadistic, or simply, not caring.

We could be created just for the sake of spectatorship, where the creator/creators just want to watch the universe and see what happens. We could have creators who derive joy in seeing civilizations from different planets develop and fight each other, like in an arcade game. Or simply creators that just don't care very much. What rule is there that said a creator needs to be good, caring, loving and so on?


4) AN OMNIPOTENT / INFINITELY POWERFUL GOD

Certainly, whatever made our current universe needed to have been powerful enough to create it. But that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be infinitely powerful. You can get a universe from an infinitely powerful cause. You can also get a universe from a cause just powerful enough to create 2 universes, and not more.

On what basis do we grant omnipotence or infinite power?


I have a couple more, but I'll leave it at this for now. Please note if you're proving any point, you need to back it up with some verifiable evidence. Quoting scriptures does not equate to evidence.

Over to you guys

Man does not know everything. We learn about God one step at a time and in time all would be revealed, that is our faith.

tctrills:

Man does not know everything. We learn about God one step at a time and in time all would be revealed, that is our faith.

If i may ask, how exactly does one go about learning about God? .. what methods can we use to achieve such knowledge?

Wilgrea7:


If i may ask, how exactly does one go about learning about God? .. what methods can we use to achieve such knowledge?

Read, meditation, asking, learning and living a holy life. Don't expect all the answers in a day, it's a lifelong pursuit.

Dtruthspeaker:


The Contract settles these things.

Yes, But how exactly?

That is why I gave you the 2 Rulers and 2 Landlords and 2 Captain analogy.

Unlike the iPhone which is not capable of breaking the laws set and made over it, we are law breaking capable iPhones, hence, our Rulers will need to come and implement Judgement and punishment or honour over us.

Once again, wonderful analogy. But if I may ask, what laws are we breaking exactly? If you want to compare humans to iphones, the only ways we can do so is via the laws of physics.

The iphone is programmed in a certain way, to do certain things. It cannot, for example, defy its programming, and drive your car for you. It hasn't been programmed to do that, as far as I can tell. Similarly, I don't recall any laws of physics, which humans have broken. No human, as far as I know, has been able to duplicate themselves the way the amoeba does. Because we weren't programmed that way.

So I assume you're talking about moral laws. The issue with moral laws, is that they're really poorly defined, so it's difficult to build a case on them.

Thus, if we have 2 Rulers, there must be war between them for there will be a case where one ruler would say it is okay and the other will say "not okay" as husband (Ruler 1) and wife (Ruler 2) have proven over their children (iPhone). We all know the war that has taken place over the rule of their children, in tandem with my 2 Rulers, 2 Landlords, 2 Captain analogy.

Moral laws and physical laws are not the same thing. As far as I know, we don't have any clearly defined moral laws "from above" to say whether or not there is unity or conflict between the alleged creator/creators.

Secondly, even in the presence of multiple creators, objective moral laws, in the sense you described, could still exist without conflict. For example, growing up, most of us had a bedtime, which was agreed on by both parents.

They both agreed on a specific time for us to have to go to bed. And in most cases, we needed to abide by the law. Of course, there could be conflict when both parties say opposing things, but the bedtime instance, or something like "it's not okay to steal meat from the pot" are examples of "moral laws" which 2 individual parties agreed on.

Sure, there are times where parents say conflicting things, and the child is left with the dilemma of choosing who to follow. But also, there are still times where both parents agree on certain things for the sake of the child.

AND THIS IS ANOTHER MAJOR PROOF OF GOD AND THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE, FOR WE SEE THAT HE TRULY CREATED US "TO BE LIKE HIM" as proven by our own look likes called mannequins, mascots, robots meanwhile we also have the iphone, car, pencil etc which do not look like him, EXACTLY AS GOD TOO DID!

And we see that no other creation on earth has this quality.

So now, we can use our human nature to find, see and understand Him.

Okay. 2 things. To say that we are like God, is to say that our positives, as well as our negatives, are attributes he also possesses. For example, greed, malice, hatred, wickedness, and so on would also attributes of this God.

Secondly, the very argument you use to imply why we would share the same nature with a God, can be used to show why we wouldn't. Mannequins and mascots are things we created, and look like us. Sure. But pencils, cars, phones, etc are also things we created that don't look like us.

According to your beliefs, God also created animals, as well as every other thing in the universe. That is to say, that if a God exists, it could look like any of the billions of naturally occurring things in the universe. How can we truly objectively say it has X and Y characteristics, if we haven't seen it to confirm?

tctrills:

Read, meditation, asking, learning and living a holy life. Don't expect all the answers in a day, it's a lifelong pursuit.

I have several questions questions

1. Read what exactly?

2. Meditate on what exactly?

3. What would you define as a holy life?

Wilgrea7:

Yes, But how exactly?

This is a whole text book on The Law of Contracts which takes a whole year for law students to learn and so it is impossible for me to teach you how the transaction operates in here. Which is why I have given you the simplest and comprehensible everyday living transactions for you to digest and work with.

Wilgrea7:

Once again, wonderful analogy. But if I may ask, what laws are we breaking exactly? If you want to compare humans to iphones, the only ways we can do so is via the laws of physics.

As long as you have confirmed the Truth that iPhone too is like us, in that it is ruled by Law. So you see, we are the same on this ground.

So since we are both ruled by law, so now you can understand my answer.

And since we have been given the power to break our Law unlike the iPhone, hence we get the attention of our Ruler and LawMaker!

Wilgrea7:

Okay. 2 things. To say that we are like God, is to say that our positives, as well as our negatives, are attributes he also possesses. For example, greed, malice, hatred, wickedness, and so on would also attributes of this God.

You have said the Word which is He also possesses or can take possession of it exactly as The Maker of iPhone cannot be lacking iPhone. That is what it means to be Creator.

Subject to His Right to either give it or refuse to give it.

And that is what makes God extremely dangerous to us, for if He should choose to do as we do, o boy, it brings shivers to imagine. But this is not the issue.

The issue is that I do confirm that He who gives pepper, certainly has plenty of pepper in his store. And that it is His Right to either give it or withold it, exactly as we do. So you see, no road here!

Wilgrea7:


I have several questions questions

1. Read what exactly?

2. Meditate on what exactly?

3. What would you define as a holy life?

Your heart will guide you. If you are a true seeker you would find answers

Wilgrea7:


This concept is something I'm really interested in, because consciousness, for the most part, is still a mystery to us. But my question is, if it is truly impossible to grasp, or to know, then how do people, like you, who say that consciousness is the maker, arrive at the conclusion? I'm sincerely curious.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong here. But if something cannot be truly known or understood, then how can we know that we know it? I'm still trying to wrap my head around it, so if you would like to explain further, I'll be happy to listen.

Because nothing can exist outside the field of awareness, consciousness is the background of all knowing. So therefore there isn't truly an outside world, an outside world as perceived is a colouring on the background of consciousness. So when the cotton shots what remains? Consciousness pure awareness, that is why they say life is hollow vanity, nothing can be grasped, what you see now is already passed away, the world is an illusion, it is vanity (empty hollow) and it is our own consciousness creating the dream we assume as reality.

Wilgrea7:
Before I continue, I must say, this is a very interesting concept of a creator deity. It's good to have different perspectives like this around here.



The issue I have about the whole "no time" thing, is that it claims that the past, present, and future exist all at once, and we simply just flow through them. This poses a huge problem for freewill, because it supports the notion that everything has already happened, and that you have absolutely no control over the future.



Like I said earlier, this is an interesting concept. I think it's called pantheism, or panentheism if i remember correctly. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The issue with the claim like this, is that while it's a nice explanation for how things are, there's not a lot of proof for this claim, in opposition to what the christians or muslims for example believe, when they say their God created the universe, and is separate from it.

For example, it is possible that a god, or multiple gods, decided to use energy, as the underlying principle for everything when creating the universe, rather than the energy itself being the ultimate creator/reality. Of course I'm not saying one or the other is necessarily true. I'm just wondering if there is any sort of evidence we could use to prove one over the other.

There is no free will, the notion free will is an illusion there is only God's will, the difference is that you are aware of it and some might not be aware of it, it like lucid dreaming, in lucid dreaming, the person knows that he is dreaming in non lucid dreaming the person is immersed in his dream and his not aware that he is dreaming,but all will are not the will of the separate individual but the will of God.

If the Christian believe there God created the universe then what created there God?

The universe is eternal (no time) that is; it is all happening now.

Dtruthspeaker:


This is a whole text book on The Law of Contracts which takes a whole year for law students to learn and so it is impossible for me to teach you how the transaction operates in here. Which is why I have given you the simplest and comprehensible everyday living transactions for you to digest and work with.

Thanks. I'll try to check it out.

As long as you have confirmed the Truth that iPhone too is like us, in that it is ruled by Law. So you see, we are the same on this ground.

So since we are both ruled by law, so now you can understand my answer.

And since we have been given the power to break our Law unlike the iPhone, hence we get the attention of our Ruler and LawMaker!

When I was talking about our similarity with iphones, I was talking about physical laws. Physical laws are things that aren't possible under the set laws of nature. For the Iphone, it's laws are the ones set by the programmer, which is why I said it can't drive your car.

For the human, it's laws set by nature, which is why I said we can't duplicate ourselves like the amoeba does. it's not physically possible, because our biology (which you would call programming in the case of the iphone) isn't structured that way.

Moral laws are another thing entirely. They are things that are completely possible, but may not be ethical when done in certain cases. Take murder for example, or stealing. This is where humans differ from iphones. Because we are conscious and sentient. We have the ability to make decisions on our own.

it is under all laws, physically impossible, for your mobile phone to hack your car and drive it. However, it is 100% possible for a human to pick up a gun and shoot someone. The action doesn't violate any physical laws. That's the difference I'd like us to agree on.

The question then becomes whether or not it is a good idea for a human to carry out such an act. That's where moral law comes in. And like I said earlier, it doesn't seem to be clearly defined from above.

You have said the Word which is He also possesses or can take possession of it exactly as The Maker of iPhone cannot be lacking iPhone. That is what it means to be Creator.

Subject to His Right to either give it or refuse to give it.

And that is what makes God extremely dangerous to us, for if He should choose to do as we do, o boy, it brings shivers to imagine. But this is not the issue.

The issue is that I do confirm that He who gives pepper, certainly has plenty of pepper in his store. And that it is His Right to either give it or withold it, exactly as we do. So you see, no road here!

Ok. I think I understand now. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But basically, you're saying that just as we can create pencils and not look like pencils, then a god could create humans with attributes like malice, jealousy and hatred, without having those attributes? That's a truly interesting concept.

So my question is, if a god can choose not to adopt these negative attributes described here, isn't it possible for it not to adopt attributes that would lead to conflict in the case of multiple deities?

Dtruthspeaker:



As long as you have confirmed the Truth that iPhone too is like us, in that it is ruled by Law. So you see, we are the same on this ground.

So since we are both ruled by law, so now you can understand my answer.

And since we have been given the power to break our Law unlike the iPhone, hence we get the attention of our Ruler and LawMaker!

The issue of moral law is something I've actually been wanting to discuss for a while. I think I may create a thread on it soon. But there's a question I've been wanting to ask you.

Do you agree that moral laws, like physical laws should be the same across the world/universe. Meaning regardless of where you go, that such a law should exist?

We know this to be true for physical laws. No matter where you go, 2+2 will always be equal to 4. Two bodies of reasonable mass will always have an effect on each other. Light will always travel at a constant speed. So then, what about moral laws?

Do you agree that if moral laws exist, then they are a fundamental part of reality, free from any religious or personal belief? If yes, then you'd agree that moral laws should stand irrespective of the concept of a god someone holds.

Kayouzka:



There is no free will, the notion free will is an illusion there is only God's will, the difference is that you are aware of it and some might not be aware of it, it like lucid dreaming, in lucid dreaming, the person knows that he is dreaming in non lucid dreaming the person is immersed in his dream and his not aware that he is dreaming,but all will are not the will of the separate individual but the will of God.

If the Christian believe there God created the universe then what created there God?

The universe is eternal (no time) that is; it is all happening now.

Once again, another interesting concept on the idea of freewill. The only problem i have with it, is that I haven't yet found any evidence for something like that. We don't know the future. We only know the present. To say that there isn't freewill, and that everything has already happened, is a statement that implies that you at least has some idea of what the future is, to be able to say that the events of the supposed future already exist.

In terms of the will of a god, I haven't seen anything that shows that there is a god in the sense you describe. I agree that energy, is a fundamental part of existence. Whether or not this energy is conscious, or is a god, is another debate entirely, and the reason it's difficult to pinpoint, is because there is no way for us to measure or identify this consciousness. And also because we don't yet fully understand what consciousness is.

Kayouzka:


Because nothing can exist outside the field of awareness, consciousness is the background of all knowing. So therefore there isn't truly an outside world, an outside world as perceived is a colouring on the background of consciousness. So when the cotton shots what remains? Consciousness pure awareness, that is why they say life is hollow vanity, nothing can be grasped, what you see now is already passed away, the world is an illusion, it is vanity (empty hollow) and it is our own consciousness creating the dream we assume as reality.

Sorry, please could you expand on the first statement, that nothing can exist outside the field of awareness? Is it to say that something cannot happen until it is observed to happen? And could you please give some examples of a situation like that to help me understand better? Thanks in advance

The fact that you're always here on the religious section of a forum where there are so many other sections is evidence that God exist!
The Bible foretold a time when people will be worried over spiritual matters {Amos 8:11} and some will be discussing with their neighbours about God and His righteous standard. Malachi 3:16

God has spoken long ago about what you're doing today and it's happening life whereas no one is forcing you be here rather you're only worried over the existence of God just as God said in his word (Bible)

Below are different sections you can choose to chat with friends but you're here on religious section shows God's word is alive!